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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 51. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Sarah T. on July 4, 2005, at 21:21:45
Hi folks. I have been taking fish oil for several years. I've tried several different brands, some expensive, some inexpensive. Every once in a while, I thought it might be helping me, but in looking back, I've concluded that I thought it might be helping me because I wanted desperately to believe it was helping. At this point, I believe I'm wasting my money, just as I have on so many other supplements. I continue to take it because it's supposed to be healthy and good for other things besides depression, but I will probably not buy any more when I finish the current bottle. Every few years, some alternative med comes out that's supposed to be the cure-all for everything from cancer to heart disease to psychiatric illnesses. I'm sick of falling for all the hype. I feel like a fool.
A couple of years ago, I bookmarked another post from PB about fish oil supposedly preventing adrenal activation and lowering cortisol. I've taken huge quantities of fish oil, yet my cortisol levels keep rising by the month. I'm currently under the care of an endocrinologist, and I know for a fact that my urinary cortisol just gets higher and higher.
First, exactly how is fish oil supposed to help depression? I thought it had something to do with increasing membrane permeability, but now I don't know.
How has fish oil helped you? Does it really help you, or do you take it because we read how healthy it's supposed to be? If it has helped you, can you explain in some detail how it has helped you?
A few weeks ago, one of our members, KaraS, posted a very encouraging message on the medication board about a visit to a new doctor who does rEEG. He told her that fish oil causes EEG patterns to look a lot like EEG patterns of patients on Neurontin. I did horribly on Neurontin, so perhaps this might explain why I don't seem to benefit from fish oil.
When you have a moment, please try to answer some of my questions, and explain, being as honest with yourself as you can be, exactly what fish oil has done for you. Has it really and truly helped alleviate your depression? If it has helped, are you sure this isn't a placebo response? Sometimes I fool myself into thinking something is helping because I've invested so much time and money on it, and it's awfully difficult to admit the truth to myself.
Thanks very much for your help.
Posted by Spriggy on July 5, 2005, at 13:13:05
In reply to Fish Oil Survey -- please respond, posted by Sarah T. on July 4, 2005, at 21:21:45
Maybe I didn't take it long enough but I was on it for 2 months and the only thing I noticed was horrible acne breakouts and more nervous energy (which I have enough of anyway).
My main problem is not depression, it is anxiety though. So it didn't do a thing for my anxiety, and actually, sometimes I felt it made my anxiety worse.
I was taking it for the health benefits and for the anti inflammatory effects. I quit it 10 days ago. My skin has cleared up by the way.
Posted by Sarah T. on July 5, 2005, at 17:29:39
In reply to Re: Fish Oil Survey -- please respond, posted by Spriggy on July 5, 2005, at 13:13:05
Hi, Spriggy.
Thanks for your reply. My skin has been breaking out lately, too, but I figured that was from all the sweating I've been doing the last few weeks. The heat and humidity have been horrible.
One of many reasons I took fish oil was because of its alleged anti-inflammatory "benefits." I never noticed any anti-inflammatory effect; in fact, I think my joint pain is worse than ever.
As far as fish oil's touted anti-anxiety effects, like you, I didn't notice them, and on some days, the fish oil seems to aggravate my anxiety.
If you saw my vitamin and supplement cabinet in my kitchen, you'd think I was about to open a health food store. What a waste! I've spent so much money on every imaginable magic pill and potion. The ONLY one that has been a great help to me is Magnesium, either Magnesium glycinate or magnesium citrate. So, I take the Magnesium at night and I take a multi-vitamin pill and extra-vitamin C. Several days a week, I add some nutritional yeast to a milk/protein shake. Other than that, I'm giving up on "alternative" strategies for now. I wish I could get back all the money I've spent on this stuff.
Posted by Spriggy on July 5, 2005, at 18:25:02
In reply to Re: Fish Oil Survey -- please respond » Spriggy, posted by Sarah T. on July 5, 2005, at 17:29:39
Yep, my cabinet looks the exact same way.
I've spent more money than I can count on supplements and haven't really noticed any help with them.
As a matter of fact, just yesterday I thought, " i might just stop all this stuff and see if I feel BETTER."
When I was drinking Dr. Pepper like water and eating chocolate Pop Tarts for breakfast, I had less anxiety and health problems. ROFL
Maybe I"m on to something... ha ha.
Posted by Sarah T. on July 6, 2005, at 0:43:49
In reply to Re: Fish Oil Survey -- please respond » Sarah T., posted by Spriggy on July 5, 2005, at 18:25:02
> > When I was drinking Dr. Pepper like water and eating chocolate Pop Tarts for breakfast, I had less anxiety and health problems. ROFL>
> Maybe I"m on to something... ha ha.Sometimes I feel better when I eat junk food. I tend to feel more satisfied temporarily when I eat foods that are high in "bad" fats, cholesterol, etc. I know I shouldn't eat that stuff, and I don't do it too often, but I do feel better. For example, I feel good after I eat pizza. I really like pizza, but it probably clogs my arteries. I do indulge occasionally. I don't intend to cut out healthy foods, but I am seriously considering stopping MOST of the "alternative" supplements. With the sole exception of Magnesium, I see no benefit to most of that stuff.
Posted by Glydin on July 6, 2005, at 8:14:33
In reply to Re: Fish Oil Survey -- please respond » Spriggy, posted by Sarah T. on July 6, 2005, at 0:43:49
> > > With the sole exception of Magnesium, I see no benefit to most of that stuff.
I can relate. I also have done the supplement addition trail over and over. Many things have been a bust for me. Thankfully, I have been able to make returns on some stuff, others not.I did like fish oil, but I too suffered from cyst like breakouts. Salmon oil seemed to be a bit better for that. But, just by a bit.
Sometimes I think we fail to think about the vitamin supplement industry can be akinned to the drug industry - they do try to "sell" a very appealing concept. Also, due to not necessarily having to do big studies for adverse effects they can claim no side effects but I have found that to not be true for me. Some of the things I've tried have had more adverse effects than the RX stuff I've taken.
That being said, I still manage to find myself with the mindset thinking the NEXT NEWISH idea to hit will be a wonder for me... go figure?
Posted by KaraS on July 6, 2005, at 19:57:47
In reply to Re: Fish Oil Survey -- please respond, posted by Glydin on July 6, 2005, at 8:14:33
I didn't notice much from fish oil other than the acne but I was only taking one gram of it. I would like to try higher dosages. I have been afraid to do so for fear of making my anxiety worse. Some here have said that they found the high EFA/low DHA ratio formulas to work best and without being anxiogenic. So I will probably try that in the future.
I have been disappointed in supplements as well particularly in the ones aimed at fighting depression. I may have expected too much however. I know that I stay healthier and have less problems with CFS when I take my vitamins and minerals regularly. Also, a lot of supplements do things behind the scenes that aren't obvious to us at the moment. It's very hard to say what the optimal levels are for supplementing and whether the benefits are worth the costs.
k
Posted by Mistermindmasta on July 6, 2005, at 21:31:59
In reply to Fish Oil Survey -- please respond, posted by Sarah T. on July 4, 2005, at 21:21:45
Hi.
Supplementing fish oil would be far less effective if you're still consuming large quantities of trans fats and omega 6's, which are directly counteracting to any omega 3's you supplement, at least in my somewhat educated opinion.
Try drastically reducing the omega 6's and trans fats in your diet. Trans fats - there should be zero. Omega 6's - make a 2:1 ratio with omega 3's and get back to me. To me, the only way to truly modify your biochemical pathways of fat metabolism is to limit the other fats in your diet. That will lead to a greater chance of a good result.
Humans evolved on a diet of approximately 4:1 ratio of omega 6's to omega 3's. American diet generally contains a 10:1 to a 40:1 ratio, sometimes bordering on 40:0, if there is such a thing haha. Anyway, my point: reduce your ratio of omega 6's to omega 3's in order to recieve full benefit from fish oil.
Posted by gardenergirl on July 7, 2005, at 0:25:54
In reply to Fish Oil Survey -- please respond, posted by Sarah T. on July 4, 2005, at 21:21:45
I know it's helped lower my cholesterol. That's a good thing. If it also helps with depression, all the better.
gg
Posted by MidnightBlue on July 7, 2005, at 0:44:39
In reply to Fish Oil Survey -- please respond, posted by Sarah T. on July 4, 2005, at 21:21:45
I take four OmegaBrite capsules a day. That is just over a gram, but not two grams. Both my doctor (internist) and mom commented I was much better. I told them it had to be either fish oil or acupuncture.
I will say this--I have been less "flat" on fish oil. I at least have a few good days now and then. I was also doing acupuncture on my knees for 6 weeks (that ended two weeks ago). I am wondering if that was helping me as much as the fish oil. I really miss it. (I was in a clinical trial)
I haven't noticed more acne and I am VERY prone to acne cysts. I do think my skin might be a bit oilier. I use a rx acne med.
For now I'm staying with it for a while longer. My doc wants to check my blood levels and see if my cholesterol has improved. It does make me a bit less hungry and I have lost some weight.
MidnightBlue
Posted by blueberry on July 7, 2005, at 19:35:22
In reply to Fish Oil Survey -- please respond, posted by Sarah T. on July 4, 2005, at 21:21:45
I can't really tell when I take fish oil. But I can tell when I stop. I take one capsule a day. Whether it has any significant psychiatric benefits or not, I don't think so with me, but it is good for the brain anyway as well as the heart and cholesterol and stuff. I can't feel any effects when I take it, but if I stop taking it I feel like something just isn't quite right. Hard to explain.
Posted by LOOPS on July 9, 2005, at 22:37:48
In reply to Re: Fish Oil Survey -- please respond, posted by blueberry on July 7, 2005, at 19:35:22
I have always been in love with fish oil. But it isn't a miracle. What I do believe is that having had life-long eczema I need more EFAs than most people, for whatever reason. It is the only thing really I've found very useful, except for the other EFAs EPO/Borage oil/lecithin. I have found that I can take high dosages of fish oil/flax oil IF it is balanced with GLA supplements. The balance is the problem and I'm still trying to resolve this.
But not from my point of view - my husband's - who has seen me take a lot of supplements over the last 3 years (and he is not a 'supplement person') - actually said to me the other day he thinks I should keep on with the fish oil/EPO because he's never seen me better.
We have had some rough times, and the last period in my life has been tough in an odd way, which is why I've been taking so much stuff, obviously. But if he thinks there is a difference, and I am pretty sure there is, that is enough for me to continue - at least with the EFAs.
Although obviously I wish there was a magic bullet.
I will say that fish oil (high dose) without GLA, does seem to result in too much dopamine for me. However, and this is pure speculation, I would be intrigued to find out if GLA had an effect on serotnonin as I think, as whenever I balance this with the EPA/DHA/ALA I have much more ahem 'balanced' effects on my emotions.
So yes, don't give up - I really think these things can help, although I think the more akin to the body's own chemistry the better (oils/herbs etc).
BTW my eczema has still been good. I am happy to be eating weird oils for the rest of my life as they feel natural (and yes, I actually like chewing them up, which is odd I admit - I even like the cheapo fish oil caps, and the linseed caps as well).
Loops x
Posted by MidnightBlue on July 10, 2005, at 0:36:16
In reply to Re: Fish Oil Survey -- please respond, posted by LOOPS on July 9, 2005, at 22:37:48
LOOPS,
Could evening primrose oil (it is the Royal Brittany brand) cause headaches when combined with the Omega 3?
I asked because I was trying to go back up from one to two gels of EPO in addition to my 1 1/2 ish grams of Omega 3. My headaches started back and they had been gone about three months.
The thing is I just feel so stiff and ache all over. I'm having to go off Bextra since it was banned and I'm running out. I was hoping the Omega would help my arthritis as well as my depression.
Please forgive if I don't understand all the particulars of your posts. My brain is quite fuzzy these days.
MidnightBlue
Posted by LOOPS on July 10, 2005, at 12:42:51
In reply to Re: Fish Oil Survey -- please respond » LOOPS, posted by MidnightBlue on July 10, 2005, at 0:36:16
Hi MidnightBlue -
Sorry to hear about the headaches and aches and pains. I have no idea if the EPO could cause headaches - maybe someone else here can help. About the omega 3 I have to take a lot to notice difference in back pain (which I had a lot of through sport). I don't have to take antiinflammatories anymore for that, and it does seem to coincide with my fish oil use. But I do take 3-5g total omega-3 a day, sometimes more. I think also to get the benefits you have to reduce other fats in the diet - especially omega-6.
Sorry I can't be of more help/knowledge. As usual everything is trial and a lot it seems of error.
Loops
Posted by cherylann on July 10, 2005, at 21:08:10
In reply to Re: Fish Oil Survey -- please respond, posted by Mistermindmasta on July 6, 2005, at 21:31:59
I'm not really sure how fish oil is suppposed to work. But I did read something that made me think that it makes brain cell membranes more receptive to seratonin.
I've been taking it for about a year and it works for me. It only seems to work along with an AD, as I've tried it alone and had no effects.
I also notice a difference in brands.cherylann
Posted by LOOPS on July 11, 2005, at 8:32:28
In reply to Re: Fish Oil Survey -- please respond, posted by cherylann on July 10, 2005, at 21:08:10
Hi -
which brands did you find best and which not? I've recently found the Twinlabs MegaTwin EPA good but it is very expensive for the amount I have to take. It has a very high EPA :DHA ratio, plus 50ius vitamin E added to each cap. I have found better results generally with high EPA fish oil for mood and eczema.
Loops
Posted by MidnightBlue on July 11, 2005, at 12:15:16
In reply to Re: Fish Oil Survey -- please respond, posted by LOOPS on July 11, 2005, at 8:32:28
LOOPS,
I take Omegabrite which is NOT cheap and 1,050 EPA and 150 DHA for three capsules. I only take 4 capsules partly because of expense. But I have GERD and they don't taste too bad when I sometimes burp them up.
I have thought of moving up to 5 a day, but not sure it would make a difference.
Also regarding inflamation, arthritis, etc. There was a big article in our paper today about curcumin. They are talking about its use against cancer as well as a substitute for Cox-2 drugs which have been banned. Curcumin is found in turmeric and curry powder.
MidnightBlue
> Hi -
>
> which brands did you find best and which not? I've recently found the Twinlabs MegaTwin EPA good but it is very expensive for the amount I have to take. It has a very high EPA :DHA ratio, plus 50ius vitamin E added to each cap. I have found better results generally with high EPA fish oil for mood and eczema.
>
> Loops
Posted by LOOPS on July 12, 2005, at 9:27:28
In reply to Re: Fish Oil Survey -- please respond » LOOPS, posted by MidnightBlue on July 11, 2005, at 12:15:16
Hi -
I never tried the Omegabrite caps- they just looked too expensive - are they really very good?
For me I have been looking into other people's successful experiences with using EFAs and it appears those most successful in treating their eczema were using HUGE quantities of both omega-3 and also GLA-containing oils like EPO.
I was reading in Shirley's Wellness Cafe the story of the woman there who used 3 tablespoons flax oil plus 2 tablespoons - TABLESPOONS!!! of evening primrose oil a day, PLUS some other oil - black cumin seed I think.
Well I can't tolerate flax oil without a GLA containing oil as it disrupts my emotional balance , and I am also happy with fish oil. So I'm now taking all three plus the lecithin lol, as I can tolerate the flax oil if it is balanced with enough GLA. Upping GLA intake once more, I have to up the other oils, as too much GLA is too calming and it's bye-bye back to depression land.
Such a lot of oil, and you would think it would make me fat. However I was scrutinizing the old bod in the mirror this morning (which I try to avoid doing having a history of EDs) and did indded notice my *rse is thinner. I don't diet (if I did I'd be back with the ED) and I don't care - just buy comfy clothes and remember I have a pretty face (I think!). So eating large quantities of EFAs doesn't seem to pack on the pounds (as it shouldn't anyway from what I've read).
I'm assuming taking such a lot is ok - I feel good and my skin says it's good (apart from the odd zits which plague me). Also I take a lot of vitamin E and C.
Loops
Posted by MidnightBlue on July 12, 2005, at 23:28:40
In reply to Re: Fish Oil Survey -- please respond, posted by LOOPS on July 12, 2005, at 9:27:28
LOOPS,
I like OmegaBrite, but I have nothing to compare it with. I do like that it is high grade and pure. I have so much trouble with my stomach, I need something that is not too fishy!
MidnightBlue
Posted by Sarah T. on July 15, 2005, at 23:02:10
In reply to Re: Fish Oil Survey -- please respond, posted by Glydin on July 6, 2005, at 8:14:33
Hi Glydin,
I've been having a lot of skin breakouts lately, too, but I figured that was from all the very hot, humid weather. When I sweat a lot, I tend to break out more. I don't know whether fish oil has made my skin worse. It has definitely NOT made it better.
I have also had some bad experiences with alternative meds that were as bas as, or worse than, some of the side effects I've had from traditional meds.
Like you, I keep looking and hoping for something that will help, but I am much more cynical than I used to be.
Posted by Sarah T. on July 15, 2005, at 23:27:33
In reply to Re: Fish Oil Survey -- please respond, posted by KaraS on July 6, 2005, at 19:57:47
Hi Kara,
Over the past couple of years, there have been so many posts from people who've noticed that fish oil causes acne. I'm surprised by this because fish oil is reputed to be so good for skin. I have not noticed an increase in acne, but my skin and other ailments (such as joint pain) are not improved at all on fish oil.The only supplement that has caused a noticeable improvement for me is Magnesium. I take 400 mg of Magnesium at night before bed. This is in addition to the Magnesium that is in the multi-vitamin I take.
Thanks for mentioning the fish oils with the high EPA to low DHA ratio. If I decide to continue taking fish oil, I will look for such a brand. Are there any, in particular, that you recommend?
Posted by Sarah T. on July 15, 2005, at 23:37:27
In reply to Re: Fish Oil Survey -- please respond, posted by Mistermindmasta on July 6, 2005, at 21:31:59
Hello Mistermindmasta,
That's an interesting name!Thanks for the information on omega 6's, 3's and trans fats. Actually, in spite of what I said in my original post about feeling better when I eat junk food, I hardly ever eat junk food. My diet is quite healthy, yet I feel awful most of the time. The fats in my diet are almost all omega 3's (not including the fish oil capsules). The oils I use primarily are olive oil and canola oil. I rarely eat trans fats or saturated fats, although I really do feel better on those rare occasions when I consume them.
Posted by Sarah T. on July 15, 2005, at 23:39:03
In reply to Re: Fish Oil Survey -- please respond, posted by gardenergirl on July 7, 2005, at 0:25:54
Hi gg,
I'm glad to hear that the fish oil has helped lower your cholesterol. I gather that you're not sure whether it's helped your depression.
Posted by Sarah T. on July 15, 2005, at 23:48:19
In reply to Re: Fish Oil Survey -- please respond » Sarah T., posted by MidnightBlue on July 7, 2005, at 0:44:39
Hi Midnight Blue,
That's interesting that you. your doctor, and your mother have noticed an improvement. I wonder how much of that improvement is from the acupuncture or something else altogether.
You mentioned that you use a prescribed acne medicine. Which one do you use? Do you think it helps? Does it dry out your skin a lot? As I mentioned in some posts above, fish oil has not made my skin breakouts worse, but it hasn't made my skin look better either. The only medication that very obviously aggravated my skin and caused cystic-like acne was Wellbutrin. I took that a long time ago, and I was on it for quite a few years. As soon as I stopped taking it, my skin started to get better.
Posted by Sarah T. on July 15, 2005, at 23:55:03
In reply to Re: Fish Oil Survey -- please respond, posted by blueberry on July 7, 2005, at 19:35:22
>> I can't really tell when I take fish oil. But I can tell when I stop. I take one capsule a day. Whether it has any significant psychiatric benefits or not, I don't think so with me, but it is good for the brain anyway as well as the heart and cholesterol and stuff. I can't feel any effects when I take it, but if I stop taking it I feel like something just isn't quite right. Hard to explain.>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hi blueberry.
I've had the experience you describe (not being able to notice a difference until I stop taking it) with other supplements, especially magnesium and B vitamins, but I haven't noticed it with fish oil. It sounds as if the fish oil might be helping you.
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