![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 6 to 30 of 71. Go back in thread:
Posted by Deputy Dinah on December 8, 2008, at 12:39:29
In reply to Re: Blocked for 2 weeks » BayLeaf, posted by lucie lu on December 8, 2008, at 11:14:10
> Also, the post to Llurpy was pretty blatant.
[Muffled]
> The ones in llurpsie's thread were the worst, vulgar, completely uncalled-for, off topic, and I thought, really disturbing.
[Lucie Lu]
One thing I've always admired about Dr. Bob and his administration of Babble is that the civility guidelines also apply to blocked posters, perhaps particularly to blocked posters (or posters who have received a PBC for a post). Admin sanctions clarify board guidelines rather publicly. It doesn't really foster a supportive environment to let more be said. In fact, it might be noted that deputies often don't respond to posts by a third party complaining about a block or PBC. This isn't because of defensiveness. It's because anything that might be said to explain our actions would not be particularly sensitive to the blocked or PBC'd poster. Posters return from blocks and PBC's (and we're glad they do). We'd like the environment to be one where they feel comfortable returning, and where shame is minimized.
For myself, I've had on board meltdowns. Sometimes it was hard to return, because there had been some discussion and I was embarrassed or ashamed. Well, I'd have been embarrassed and ashamed either way, but it was much worse. I'm talking about my own experiences here, and why I appreciate Dr. Bob's policies on this matter. I'm in no way implying that other people's behavior or response was similar to my own.
Deputies really appreciate support. And certainly we do feel sensitive to objections about our actions. I don't know if Dr. Bob is as unmoved as he appears, but we definitely aren't as unmoved as he appears. However, we do understand (and have had drilled into us) that there is a tension between support and administration. And that at times support expressed to other posters will necessarily imply disagreement directed at Admin. We try to understand it in the spirit it was intended. We're also aware of the tension between the two roles because of our dual roles as poster and as deputy. As much as we'd like to be supportive to any given poster, we have to balance that desire with the needs of other posters and the needs of the board as a whole. We do our best. But to expect that our best would be universally accepted as great, or even good enough, would be unrealistic.
Posted by muffled on December 8, 2008, at 15:16:13
In reply to Site guidelines, posted by Deputy Dinah on December 8, 2008, at 12:39:29
Posted by Partlycloudy on December 8, 2008, at 15:21:27
In reply to Site guidelines, posted by Deputy Dinah on December 8, 2008, at 12:39:29
> > Also, the post to Llurpy was pretty blatant.
>
> [Muffled]
>
> > The ones in llurpsie's thread were the worst, vulgar, completely uncalled-for, off topic, and I thought, really disturbing.
>
> [Lucie Lu]
>
> One thing I've always admired about Dr. Bob and his administration of Babble is that the civility guidelines also apply to blocked posters, perhaps particularly to blocked posters (or posters who have received a PBC for a post). Admin sanctions clarify board guidelines rather publicly. It doesn't really foster a supportive environment to let more be said. In fact, it might be noted that deputies often don't respond to posts by a third party complaining about a block or PBC. This isn't because of defensiveness. It's because anything that might be said to explain our actions would not be particularly sensitive to the blocked or PBC'd poster. Posters return from blocks and PBC's (and we're glad they do). We'd like the environment to be one where they feel comfortable returning, and where shame is minimized.
>On the other hand, an administration that treats outbursts in retaliation on the boards with with just this kind of response might be viewed as condoning and even encouraging this exact type of behavior.
Just my personal and quite biased opinion, but there you have it.pc
Posted by muffled on December 8, 2008, at 16:14:31
In reply to Re: Site guidelines » Deputy Dinah, posted by Partlycloudy on December 8, 2008, at 15:21:27
my brain hurts...
I'm not sure I understand, and I want to, to do better.
Its like this for me IRL too sometimes.
Sometimes I just don't get interpersonal stuff.
The sib next up to me in my foo, was utterly unreasonable, and it was confirmed by others. I learned to let nothing bother me, to let things go, cuz there was no point in fighting my sib, cuz I could never ever win, no matter how logical. I learned that what I felt didn't matter. I didn't matter. I just had to keep the peace and shove any needs or feelings I had aside. I didn't matter. All that mattered was keeping the peace so my Ma didn't freak out.
So in a way its a gift from that sib, that I am able to just let things go and trust that anothers intentions are just the best they can do. I never stay mad at anyone, I am always ready and willing to forgive at the first sign of remorse or sadness on anothers part.
So I guess I just am unable to understand.
I would like to.
Though it will be painful to me, but thats OK, cuz then I won't hurt others next time, cuz thats what hurts me. I don't like to hurt others.
Like I said, little hurts me.
M
Posted by fayeroe on December 8, 2008, at 16:25:53
In reply to Re: Blocked for 2 weeks » BayLeaf, posted by lucie lu on December 8, 2008, at 11:14:10
> While I respect your compassion, BayLeaf, did you really read through *all* the threads over the weekend? There were numerous posts from SSSS in several different threads which seemed like sudden non sequiters, with all sorts of allusions to people needing to apologize, hating cliques, and a variety of similar comments. The ones in llurpsie's thread were the worst, vulgar, completely uncalled-for, off topic, and I thought, really disturbing. Unless there is something everyone else knows but me, which is entirely possible, these comments seemed like part of a determined and persistent attempt to engage one or more babblers in some sort of on-board conflict. And frankly, that made *me* feel unsafe. I am sympathetic to cries for help but there are OK and not OK ways to do it. Metaphorically speaking, pointing a gun at someone's head can also be seen as an obvious cry of help, but is it OK? I think that is the issue here - not whether a babbler deserves the help and support she seeks but how the request is made so that it is respectful of others and not disruptive of the rest of the board.
I may someday have to ask for help here and I'd like to know how to go about asking for it. If I am disruptive and rude..it might be due to the fact that I am helpless in controlling my behavior. If my mental health support board is made up of my closests friends and confidants,I might want to come here and get someone's attention..(in whatever way that I can handle at the moment)
>
> I think this whole thing is really unfortunate and sad. I do feel bad for SSSS. But I also don't like to see the deputies put down for doing their jobs. Dinah also gave her a PBC warning on a different thread, and there were several places that they could have blocked her besides the place that Racer did. I also think that, while it may seem tempting in times of high emotion, dissing the board overall will do little to promote an atmosphere of acceptance, support, and respect and is generally counter-productive. IMO.I have a sense that has been honed for years and years in working with people with mental health issues. Sometimes a person can ask for help in a totally inappropriate manner. I'd like to see the hands of those who babblemailed or emailed her, please. I do not know her enough and wasn't even reading her posts until I saw the "bitch" one.
>
> Lucie
Posted by Partlycloudy on December 8, 2008, at 16:44:21
In reply to I'm trying to understand...., posted by muffled on December 8, 2008, at 16:14:31
Not sure what I said that you're trying to understand.
Maybe cut and paste my post, because now I'm confused too? I just want to see the same civility rules applied to one poster applied to others here - to be as fair as possible. That was my point.
pc
Posted by Dinah on December 8, 2008, at 16:46:00
In reply to I'm trying to understand...., posted by muffled on December 8, 2008, at 16:14:31
Apparently I am not so good with words today. Or perhaps my attempts at a more explanatory and open style are indeed misguided.
Of course I value you, and Lucie, and SSSS. You all matter quite a bit to me.
It's against site guidelines to negatively characterize another poster's post. That's all I was trying to say. I understand that was not necessarily your intention.
Thank you for your apology, and I'm sorry that I wasn't more clear.
Posted by twinleaf on December 8, 2008, at 16:55:24
In reply to Re: Blocked for 2 weeks » BayLeaf, posted by lucie lu on December 8, 2008, at 11:14:10
Voicing concern over a deputy's action does not mean that I. or anyone else, is putting them down. That was certainly never my intention; I simply had a different opinion about what would be best to do. Now that I have read more of the other threads, I realize that in this instance there was a gradually escalating situation, with alternating self-condemning and provocative statements. Posters in these situations do usually eventually make it necessary for deputies to give them a PCB or block, but when that occurs, it often seems to me that the poster in question has succeeded in getting either Bob or the deputies to behave like the original parents- i.e. judgemental and rejecting. I wonder what would happen if more interpretative supportive interactions occurred earlier? If a helpful fellow-poster said something like, " it looks like you feel really bad right now, but maybe it would be better if you didn't make (vulgar or inappropriate ) comments, and talked about how bad you feel instead, they would almost certainly be given a PCB. So, because there isn't a good way to intervene along the way, the whole sequence escalates until the poster in distress gets blocked. We now have no way of knowing how she is. Having been blocked myself, I can say from personal experience that it is a painfully rejecting, invalidating experience-the very thing a board dedicated to compassion and understanding should want to avoid whenever possible. Although she is now unable to tell us, we can be pretty certain that the painful feelings that led SSSS to push so hard against the limits of civility are now worse than before.
Posted by TherapyGirl on December 8, 2008, at 17:00:01
In reply to Re: Blocked for 2 weeks » lucie lu, posted by twinleaf on December 8, 2008, at 16:55:24
I can definitely see everyone's viewpoint here and I think all make valid points. But I wish there was some way to, like twinleaf said, provide support for such an obvious cry of help AND keep the behavior from escalating so that everyone feels safe here.
I understand where SSSS is because I've been there before. I hope she will work her way out of this place -- she's done it before and I suspect she will do it again. But I wish she didn't have to do it alone.
Posted by twinleaf on December 8, 2008, at 18:02:23
In reply to Re: This is so hard, posted by TherapyGirl on December 8, 2008, at 17:00:01
Yes, TG - I think you have expressed the most important thing. Despite clear good intentions and reasonable site guidelines, the result for her is that we have rejected her and left her alone with her pain and struggles. Many of the thoughts and feelings she expressed here were really just attempts to solve intensely distressing and painful feelings which her new therapy is bringing to the surface. I'm not sure how these situations could be handled better, but I'm sure there's a way. If I could have said something like, "tell us how you are feeling, but don't provoke or attack others", I would gladly have done so. But I know that a deputy might feel that. in order to carry out her responsibilities, she would need to warn me about putting her down. Like everyone else, I hate being told that, so I no longer take the chances in reaching out to others here that I once did.
I hope that this situation, now resolved for the moment, will encourage lots of Babblers to think about how these situations might be handled so that the needs of the individual and the rights of the community are addressed so that both might be met to a greater degree.
Posted by BayLeaf on December 8, 2008, at 18:08:48
In reply to Re: Blocked for 2 weeks » BayLeaf, posted by lucie lu on December 8, 2008, at 11:14:10
It's not the admin action I have a problem with - it's the timing. If SSSS was having trouble all weekend perhaps a Rephrase, or Please be Supportive, or an offical Are You Okay??? could have helped?
I also understand that the admins have lives and may not have been available to do this.
And as far as cliques go - they have existed at Babble, and most online communities forever. They change in size and composition, but they are always there. They aren't necessarily a bad thing - depends on behavior.
Bay
Posted by Dinah on December 8, 2008, at 18:23:41
In reply to Re: This is so hard » TherapyGirl, posted by twinleaf on December 8, 2008, at 18:02:23
> If I could have said something like, "tell us how you are feeling, but don't provoke or attack others",
And again, it still is against site guidelines, even in retrospect. It is simply a question of not characterizing a poster or posts in negative ways.
People can and do respond "It seems like you're having a tough time. I'm sorry you're feeling so bad." Or even "I'd hate to see you get blocked. Can I help in any way?" People can and do respond with sensitive and enormously civil posts that are warm and address the issue without negatively characterizing the behavior. Sometimes that' all that's needed and things do work out. That's really the best possible outcome.
I'd like to point out that other posters aren't therapists. They can help if they feel able to, but they can also feel hurt and distressed themselves. The needs and feelings of *all* posters are important.
And finally you keep referring to deputies and Dr. Bob as being rejecting. Perhaps you and perhaps others see it that way. But I don't feel judgmental, and I don't feel rejecting. I can and do chat with blocked posters, and feel no difficulty at all doing that. I can and do respond warmly and with genuine fondness. And I can and do block people I care very much about, even people I love. I have *never* rejected SSSS.
PBC's, blocks, and rejection or judgmentalism are not synonyms. If you see it that way, you do, and I respect that. But it's not true from this end. I don't reject SSSS in any way. I have always stood her friend, and will continue to do so. But I don't see it the way you do. The board couldn't run without rules or consequences. But that's all they are. Rules and consequences. Not judgment and rejection. Why would I reject this poster? Why would I judge her? I hope she knows that I am the same as I always have been.
Posted by TherapyGirl on December 8, 2008, at 18:44:23
In reply to Re: This is so hard » twinleaf, posted by Dinah on December 8, 2008, at 18:23:41
Dinah, just in case I haven't said it recently, I really do appreciate the job you and the other deputies do. I know it's not easy and it must at least seem thankless fairly often.
I'm feeling frustrated with myself for not realizing what was going on sooner (the hit-or-miss reading thing I often have to do because of my work schedule) and responding more effectively. Maybe nothing would have worked. But I feel like I was a day late and a dollar short and now someone is out there in that horrible space all alone. And I get why that happened, I really do, but I still hate it for her.
But thank you and Racer. I think you do very difficult work exceedingly well and diplomatically.
Posted by rskontos on December 8, 2008, at 19:04:25
In reply to Re: This is so hard » TherapyGirl, posted by twinleaf on December 8, 2008, at 18:02:23
I often just lurk and I often see a poster I get worried about. When I see the signs that they might be ramping up to a downward spiral I am not comfortable with how to address it without crossing the line so I don't. I then feel bad for them, feel like I could have helped when I did not.
I would feel bad if I tried to help and got a PBC and there is no telling how i would react. So I don't take a chance. And that just makes me feel bad.
In the future, would it be possible to hit the notify button and say that you are worried about that poster or is that not an option. At least that would get a deputy or Dr. Bob on notice?
So that if you personally don't think you are able to help then someone else might be.
Some of the babblers don't have babblemail turned so that isn't always an option either.
Just wondering.
rsk
I feel bad for her. And for how everyone else is left feeling now too.
Posted by rskontos on December 8, 2008, at 19:05:58
In reply to Re: This is so hard » twinleaf, posted by rskontos on December 8, 2008, at 19:04:25
I agree with you and TG a lot. It is hard to know how to help someone that seems in trouble without getting into trouble yourself.
and then all are left feeling bad in the end.
rsk
Posted by fayeroe on December 8, 2008, at 19:32:09
In reply to Re: Above for all, but for Twinleaf, posted by rskontos on December 8, 2008, at 19:05:58
Couldn't there be a private chat with the person? Do you have a room here where two can chat alone?
It could be like the safe room that we had at the psych hospital.of course, it would be very good if bob made himself available when someone is obviously in so much distress. alot of people here look up to him and would probably benefit from a bit of one on one in a safe place.
my keyboard isn't working correctly. sometimes a letter will capitalize and sometimes it won't.
Posted by muffled on December 8, 2008, at 19:46:50
In reply to Re: Above for all, but for Twinleaf, posted by rskontos on December 8, 2008, at 19:05:58
and I got the scars to prove it.
However, I HAVE learned from them...
I think it is important to know that online support, while wonderful, can only be an adjunct to IRL support. The IRL needs to be primary.
I agree, when a person is lashing out it would be nice to be able to help them. But I think it is a kindness to block as there's posts I have regretted posting when escalated that I wish I hadn't done. Once I am in that point of irrational anger, its hard on a board to try and talk me down, there is too much delay. Chat has been useful to me for that however.
I just dunno where do you draw the line for blocking? Am I allowed to call eg. Dinah and *ssh*l* cuz I am mad at her? Is that acceptable? esp if I am escalating and am likely from my past history, to continue? to worsen due to the slow response of the board? Should I not be stopped? When I used to get to that point there was nothing anyone could do. I would end up blocked, and madder than ever, but I would deescalate eventually and it would be OK. I am still here. So in my case, being blocked, ultimately protected me, and of course any poaters that might be triggered by my behaviour. And I am sure I must ahve triggered and frightened others in the past. For that I am sorry.
Also,now, when blocked, I think you can still chat, so you ar not completely ostracised.
I haven't b-mailed SSSS cuz she asked me not to. She b-mailed me after that, but I did not b-mail back as I didn't want to go against her wishes. I just deleted it after a brief scan. I don't remember what it said. I dislike bmail as I have seen too many stung by it, and then there is background stuff going on, and then it shows on the boards and I dunno WTF is going on cuz I not in the loop. I think its best, for the most part, to be kept on the boards, cuz then the group can help regulate responses. Anything I write is there for all to see, and judge if they wish, and hopefully let me know when I stray.
So I do NOT beleive in long blocks, I di not see their purpose. But short blocks I think are one solution to this problem.
As for SSSS I find it hard to beleive she doesn't know that many care for her here. She is a longtime poster with many friends. She occassionally has to take a break, but thankfully has returned. I am eager to hear (but no, I will not post, no matter how happy and exited I am for her :-( )
how things progress with the new T , she sounds very good.
I dunno if I made sense.
I just don't want noboddy to think I am bad is all, I get scared that people think I am cold and hard cuz I am dispassionate lotsa times.
I feel like I keep saying wrong things and I dunno what they are. I dunno if I even making sense.
M
Posted by Toph on December 8, 2008, at 19:48:44
In reply to Re: Blocked for 2 weeks » Deputy Racer, posted by BayLeaf on December 8, 2008, at 8:31:59
No disrespect to any of those genuinely concerned for a friend, but how do we know for certain that any administrative thread for the immediate future isn't in some way polluted by the new research and pseudo participants?
Posted by twinleaf on December 8, 2008, at 19:55:23
In reply to Re: This is so hard » twinleaf, posted by Dinah on December 8, 2008, at 18:23:41
Yes, despite your presupposition, I do understand that the correct way to try to help a poster is to make positive suggestions, and not to be at all critical. My point is that there are occasions when mild, positive suggestions are simply not going to be noticed by a person who is under tremendous emotional pressure. This appears to have happened in the present situation. It's at that point that we no longer have acceptable ways to help. Several posters have expressed the same feeling of helplessness on this thread.
Thank you for pointing out to me that Babblers are not therapists. I assume that you must have thought I was uncertain about that vital point. As to your reminding me that other posters have feelings *also*, I must also assume that you think I am unaware of that, even though every single post of mine on this topic has emphasized this exact point- that we need to always balance the needs of a poster in distress with the needs of everyone else in our community..
When I have been blocked here, I have been astonished by how strong my feelings of having been rejected actually are. It is as though I have been part of a tribe, and have suddenly been cast out. At the same time, I have never had the slightest feeling that Bob, or any deputy, have rejecting feelings towards me. I do not feel that anyone is doing anything other than doing their best to administer the site as fairly as possible, and I know that it is often a difficult and thankless job. Although you seem to assume that I do not know what the site guidelines are, as it happens, I have managed to learn exactly what they are over the course of five years of participation here. I know that good, fair administration, not any personal dislike of me, is what informs all of the decisions about PCBs and blocks. When I have been blocked, what has made me feel so rejected and alone is never any feelings of rejection by anyone; it is that I was suddenly alone and cut off from communication and the possibility of repaired dialogue during a time of heightened need for just those things with just this community..
Posted by Dinah on December 8, 2008, at 20:27:27
In reply to basic misunderstandings across the board... » Dinah, posted by twinleaf on December 8, 2008, at 19:55:23
I don't know what I said that caused you to respond that way.
But I'm too tired to try to figure it out.
Even if I'm stating the obvious, that's at most a stupid thing for me to do.
I am clearly either erring greatly in my judgment today or communicating very poorly.
I'm stepping away now.
Posted by BayLeaf on December 8, 2008, at 20:27:51
In reply to Re: Blocked, posted by Toph on December 8, 2008, at 19:48:44
Toph - if you are referring to me, I've been on Babble on and off for many years, under various names. I was here when Babble was just one board for meds. I'm pretty sure Dinah knows who I am and can confirm that I've been around the babble block.
I'm NOT a pseudo participant, just a grumpy one. It's a bummer how that project causes such paranoia.
Posted by Dinah on December 8, 2008, at 20:29:36
In reply to Re: This is so hard » Dinah, posted by TherapyGirl on December 8, 2008, at 18:44:23
I appreciate it.
Posted by lucie lu on December 8, 2008, at 20:46:52
In reply to Re: Blocked for 2 weeks » lucie lu, posted by BayLeaf on December 8, 2008, at 18:08:48
> It's not the admin action I have a problem with - it's the timing. If SSSS was having trouble all weekend perhaps a Rephrase, or Please be Supportive, or an offical Are You Okay??? could have helped?
>
> I also understand that the admins have lives and may not have been available to do this.Bay, again, I think if you read through all the threads you would see that Dinah and also many posters did try gentle suggestions. On multiple threads. It may have helped on some level but the behavior still escalated.
> And as far as cliques go - they have existed at Babble, and most online communities forever. They change in size and composition, but they are always there. They aren't necessarily a bad thing - depends on behavior.
>
> Bay
Posted by BayLeaf on December 8, 2008, at 20:57:02
In reply to Re: Blocked for 2 weeks » BayLeaf, posted by lucie lu on December 8, 2008, at 20:46:52
Then I was completely off base, and made false assumptions. I only saw the pain under her anger and reacted in mother bear mode. I apologize to those involved.
bay
Posted by gardenergirl on December 8, 2008, at 20:58:20
In reply to Re: Blocked for 2 weeks » BayLeaf, posted by lucie lu on December 8, 2008, at 20:46:52
I know it can be difficult to see the behavior of someone we care about seem to "escalate", especially if we believe we can predict the outcome and feel helpless to prevent it. These may be times when it might be more effective to "strike when the iron is cold" versus when it is "hot". It may be that there are times when someone's "iron is so hot" that the heat/pain somehow affects how an attempt at support is received. There are times when it can be more helpful and effective to talk through stuff when someone is not so immediately caught up in the pain and upset. In my own experience, there have been times that I've been able to take in and process support better when I've had a chance to apply coping skills, soothe myself, or otherwise get some distance from the flare up, so that I felt clearer in my head and could better use what folks said to me.
I don't know of a good way to tell the difference between when to strike a hot iron and when to wait til it cools, but sometimes a experiencing a pattern of behavior can suggest a likely course.
Yeeks, that was difficult and awkward, and as SSSS suggested, that might mean this might not be the best thing to post. My intentions are to try to help all involved, so all please take what you will and leave what you will from this.
gg
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Administration | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.