![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 13 to 37 of 38. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 28, 2003, at 8:17:34
In reply to Re: My email to Bob 10:40pm PST » galkeepinon, posted by Larry Hoover on October 28, 2003, at 7:37:00
> Why is everyone ganging up on me???????
> PEOPLWHO DON’T EVEN KNOW ME WANT ME DEAD
>
> Kristen> this post ... comes across like emotional blackmail.
>
> Tabitha> I am one who deeply resents being manipulated YET AGAIN by the same person who, for nearly three-quarters of a year, has attempted to turn nearly every thread into her own private cause celebre, and to turn Psychobabble upside down and inside out, to fit her supremely narcissistic needs.
>
> sb417> I hate what you did. I really hate what you did.
>
> LarPlease be sensitive to the feelings of others and don't jump to conclusions about them, post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down, or exaggerate or overgeneralize. Please?
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 28, 2003, at 8:40:38
In reply to Re: please be civil » galkeepinon » Tabitha » sb41 » Larry Hoover, posted by Dr. Bob on October 28, 2003, at 8:17:34
> > I hate what you did. I really hate what you did.
> >
> > Lar
>
> Please be sensitive to the feelings of others and don't jump to conclusions about them, post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down, or exaggerate or overgeneralize. Please?
>
> Thanks,
>
> BobI used I statements, and I wasn't exaggerating. More confusion.
Lar
Posted by madwand on October 28, 2003, at 8:44:11
In reply to Re: please be civil » Dr. Bob, posted by Larry Hoover on October 28, 2003, at 8:40:38
I am confused too. I would think that "I hate you" would be uncivil but "I hate what you did" would not be. The latter makes a definite point of distinguish between the *behavior* and the *person*.
Michael
Posted by Dinah on October 28, 2003, at 8:46:51
In reply to --------------------------------------, posted by galkeepinon on October 28, 2003, at 1:21:21
Kristen, I've had moments where I've written posts very like that one. And one shining moment where only the fate of providence kept me from sending one... well, it wouldn't have been pretty, and I'm grateful to providence that the site was down.
I understand what it is to feel this upset by the board, and what has helped for me is to get help in person. I stepped away from the computer and called my therapist. Do you have a therapist you can call?
I've also had friends who could express their concerns for me. To tell me that I seemed really brittle and that I needed to be careful.
But I *do* know what it feels like to cry over the computer keyboard and shake so badly I can't type.
You need to call your therapist or psychiatrist, Kristen. There's nothing that Dr. Bob can say that will make it all better.
I understand that you're hurting. I understood that last time too. This is a good time to make different choices. Call your therapist.
Posted by Dinah on October 28, 2003, at 8:58:15
In reply to Re: -------------------------------------- » galkeepinon, posted by Dinah on October 28, 2003, at 8:46:51
I am *waaay* too self disclosing sometimes. I must talk to my therapist about that today.
Posted by Dinah on October 28, 2003, at 9:12:01
In reply to Re: please be civil (also a bit confused), posted by madwand on October 28, 2003, at 8:44:11
Ditto??? What gives, Dr. Bob?
Posted by fallsfall on October 28, 2003, at 9:12:37
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob - » sb417, posted by Elle2021 on October 28, 2003, at 4:04:50
This post is written to Kristen (when I say "you", I mean Kristen), but I'm hoping that other posters will read it and try to understand what I am trying to say...
I hear very clearly that you are in a lot of pain. I wish that I (or anyone else) could wave a magic wand and make that pain go away for you. I wish that I could offer you lots of assistance and support, but I am limited in what I can do. I will do what I can.
In therapy right now, I am working on something that my also be applicable for you. I am finding that it is often true that my therapist will say something to me, but what I hear and understand is not what he meant. He thinks something and then translates that into words. I hear the words, but when I translate them into thought I end up with different thoughts than he started out with. This happens with EVERYONE ALL the time. Most of the time, though, the thoughts are close enough so that there isn't a real problem. Unfortunately for me (and perhaps you?) my translations are colored (distorted) by things that I learned as I was growing up. Can you believe that it could be possible that you might hear (understand) things that other people might not mean? And that they might hear (understand) things that you don't mean? For instance, if I ask you to pick up a red crayon, you might pick up a pink one (because pink is a kind of red). I might think that you picked up a maroon crayon (that's my favorite color), and suggest that you use your crayon to color the bricks in the picture. You would then look at me like I have two heads because noone would color bricks pink. We both have made valid translations (red-pink and red-maroon), but we didn't make the SAME translation.
Let's look at a sentance in your post:
"I know that a poster a while back committed suicide, and I would hate that to happen again."Let me try to guess what you might have meant by this sentance, and then I'll tell you how another person might have interpreted it. If we can just agree that there may be misunderstandings, (and that it might be possible to clear up the misunderstandings) I think that some people (including me and hopefully you) might not feel as anxious as they do now.
You said "I would hate for that (a suicide) to happen again". I think that you could mean (and I would like to know if I am guessing right) that you wish that no one on this board would ever commit suicide again. That you hope that something (you/we don't know what) can be done so that no one feels that they have no other options. And I believe, since you are a poster on this board, that you hope that you will not commit suicide. But I also think that you are scared that you might not be able to find that something (the thing that we don't know what it is yet) that would let you see that you have other options. Am I close? If I'm not, then we can talk about what I'm getting wrong so that we can understand each other. I want to understand your THOUGHT.
It is important for you, also, to realize that other people could interpret that sentance differently. Let's pretend that there is a poster named "Alphonse" (this person does not really exist - I just made him up, and I really like the name Alphonse. Is anyone here really named Alphonse?), but I just want you to see that Alphonse could REASONABLY interpret the sentance differently that what I am guessing you meant.
The two previous sentances have 7 exclaimation marks at the ends:
"Are you waiting for me to just leave???????
Why is everyone ganging up on me???????"
Alphonse COULD reasonably interpret these sentances to mean that you are very confused and feeling a little (or lot) bit desperate. If you were just "wondering" (rather than confused or desperate) Alphonse might expect you to use only 1 exclaimation mark. So Alphonse believes that you are feeling desperate (remember, this is just what Alphonse believes - it may have not be the way you are feeling at all - Alphonse could be misinterpreting what you are saying).Just above there you said:
"I looked up suicide online"Let's say that Alphonse believes that being desperate could make it so that a person might not be able to see that they have many options (that's kind of what desperate means to me - that I am feeling like I don't have any good choices, that I'm going to have to choose something that I don't like). So if Alphonse believes that you are desperate and you are researching the option of suicide, Alphonse could believe that suicide might be one of the few options that you are considering. Can you see how it would be reasonable for Alphonse to THINK that this is what you meant (even if it isn't really what you meant at all)?
Then Alphonse reads:
"I know that a poster a while back committed suicide, and I would hate that to happen again"Alphonse might believe from this that you believe that it is possible for posters to commit suicide (because you know that it has happened in the past). The next phrase "and I would hate that to happen again" COULD be interpreted by Alphonse to be "and I would hate that to happen again, BUT IT MIGHT". Even if this is not what you intended the sentance to mean, do you see how Alphonse could reasonably get that meaning from the sentance you wrote? So now Alponse thinks that you are desperate, one of your few options is suicide, and that you think that the suicide of a poster is possible. Alphonse might very well think that this means that you think it is possible that you would commit suicide. Until he read your post, Alphonse wasn't thinking that ANYONE was going to commit suicide, but now he thinks that you are considering it. Do you see how Alphonse could believe that you are threatening to commit suicide (even if this is not your intent at all)? That he might think that you believe that it is possible that you would commit suicide?
So, if my interpretation of what you were thinking is right (that you really want something to happen so that suicide is NOT your only option), and if Alphonse is thinking that suicide is a real option for you, then the two of you are not thinking alike at all! But both of the interpretations are REASONABLE based on the words that you wrote.
I know that I am having a really hard time with my therapist right now because he says something and means one thing, but I interpret it to mean something else (like I think that he's mad at me, or thinks I'm stupid). After a lot of effort, we are (just barely) getting to the point where I am looking at what I am hearing and trying to let him know how I am interpreting it. At which point he looks at me like I have two heads and says "Where did you get that? That's not what I said at all!", and I sigh and say "But that's what I HEARD!". We are starting now to go back to the words that he said, and many times now (not always...) he can explain to me what he meant to say and I can see how it is different from what I heard. I can also see how the same words can be interpreted in the two different ways. It's like he says it from HIS point of view, but I hear it from MINE. What I'm trying to learn to do, and I'm not good at it yet at all, is to hear it from HIS point of view. To hear what he meant me to hear, rather than what my life so far would interpret his words to mean.
Does this make any sense? This long winded post is hoping that both you, Kristen, and others who are reading your posts might see that it is possible that what they interpret from your words may not be what you mean, and what you interpret from their words may not be what they mean. I am thinking that BOTH sides are making incorrect assumptions about what the "other" side means.
If you and other posters think that this might be true, then let's try to take a deep breath, back up and see if we can't have a better understanding of each other.
I think that a big part of the problem is that when you are on the internet you lose a lot of information - body language, voice inflection, pauses or timing or rhythm. Those pieces of information make it much easier to understand what the other person MEANS. When you just have the black and white words it is really easy to misinterpret.
I guess that, at this point, what I would be really happy with would be if EVERYONE on this board could agree that it is POSSIBLE that ANY ONE, OR ALL OF US could be misinterpreting what someone else is saying. And perhaps that other person isn't the ogre that you think they are.
Kristen, I don't think you are an ogre. And I don't think that the posters who are angry at you are ogres either. I just think that there are different viewpoints and that there is a lot of miscommunication.
Posted by fallsfall on October 28, 2003, at 9:22:15
In reply to Re: Well, now I feel stupid and exposed. :(, posted by Dinah on October 28, 2003, at 8:58:15
I don't see why you think that was too disclosing. Just curious.
Posted by Dinah on October 28, 2003, at 9:30:48
In reply to Re: Well, now I feel stupid and exposed. :( » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on October 28, 2003, at 9:22:15
I'd really rather not talk about those times on board, they bring up a lot of painful memories. And to discover that I made myself vulnerable for nothing, on a mistaken assumption, is doubly painful.
And I'd really rather not talk about it on the board. I shouldn't have made that post either (or this one either). I think I'll just go have a good cry now. I'm stepping away from the computer (which isn't even mine).
Posted by Susan J on October 28, 2003, at 9:31:21
In reply to Re: Well, now I feel stupid and exposed. :(, posted by Dinah on October 28, 2003, at 8:58:15
Hi, Dinah,
> I am *waaay* too self disclosing sometimes. I must talk to my therapist about that today.
>>I personally don't think you disclosed anything bad. Perhaps something in that is embarassing to you. I dunno. But I think that sharing your personal experiences is great and supportive, and I also *really* liked your line about people now have the opportunity to make different choices....
Excellent. You're very helpful, Dinah, even if you don't like that you were open about stuff... :-)
Susan
Posted by NikkiT2 on October 28, 2003, at 9:33:50
In reply to Re: Well, now I feel stupid and exposed. :( » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on October 28, 2003, at 9:22:15
If you would like me to be totally open and honest about my feelings, I will be. But I don't feel hate. yes, I feel anger, but not hate.
I don't wish anyone dead. I haven't tried to take my life since April by the way.. and I hope to never try again.
If you would like the reasons for my anger spelled out, just let me know.
Posted by madwand on October 28, 2003, at 9:58:30
In reply to Communication, posted by fallsfall on October 28, 2003, at 9:12:37
Posted by madwand on October 28, 2003, at 9:59:42
In reply to Communication, posted by fallsfall on October 28, 2003, at 9:12:37
Posted by Susan J on October 28, 2003, at 10:04:25
In reply to Re: please be civil » Dr. Bob, posted by Larry Hoover on October 28, 2003, at 8:40:38
Dr. Bob,
If the *civility* standard is so *restrictive* that people cannot communicate effectively, perhaps it's truly time to modify it.
Larry *specifically* said he doesn't hate Kristen as a person, but he hates what she did. I thought it was a supportive statement of Kristen, validating her value as a human being, yet correctly stating certain behavior bothered Larry. If he can't say that, how can bad behavior (and its serious and very real effects on other humans) ever be addressed? And if it can't be addressed because it's per se uncivil, isn't that giving full rein for people to behave badly here?
Aren't we losing sight of the bigger picture, here? Mutual support and education? Personally, if someone hated my behavior, I'd much rather they said it like Larry did, rather than flame my character out of anger/hatred/hurt.
Implicit in Larry's message, I think, was, "You're a good human being, but your behavior is hurtful."
That's civil. That's supportive. That's educational. Civil doesn't mean lovey-dovey all the time, does it? Real life doesn't function that way, and I'd argue that making nice all the time can be harmful in itself....
As an attorney, my view on the law in general, is that it's a *tool* that serves the good of the people, and that people do not serve the *law.* The law is modified to meet human needs. Human needs are not modified to fit into an ineffectual law. Analogous to that, then, the civility standard here must serve the good of the posters, we do not serve the civility standard. If the civility standard does not permit supportive and educational interaction, it has to be modified.
Susan
> > > I hate what you did. I really hate what you did.
> > >
> > > Lar
> >
> > Please be sensitive to the feelings of others and don't jump to conclusions about them, post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down, or exaggerate or overgeneralize. Please?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Bob
>
> I used I statements, and I wasn't exaggerating. More confusion.
>
> Lar
>
Posted by stjames on October 28, 2003, at 11:03:54
In reply to Re: please be civil » Dr. Bob, posted by Larry Hoover on October 28, 2003, at 8:40:38
Dr. Bob, you are way off here.
> > > I hate what you did. I really hate what you did.
> > >
> > > Lar
> >
> > Please be sensitive to the feelings of others and don't jump to conclusions about them, post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down, or exaggerate or overgeneralize. Please?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Bob
>
> I used I statements, and I wasn't exaggerating. More confusion.
>
> Lar
>
Posted by Emme on October 28, 2003, at 14:11:40
In reply to Re: Well, now I feel stupid and exposed. :(, posted by Dinah on October 28, 2003, at 8:58:15
Nah, you were sharing your experience to try to help someone. I don't think that's too self-disclosing.
> I am *waaay* too self disclosing sometimes. I must talk to my therapist about that today.
Posted by Tabitha on October 28, 2003, at 14:56:49
In reply to Re: please be civil » galkeepinon » Tabitha » sb41 » Larry Hoover, posted by Dr. Bob on October 28, 2003, at 8:17:34
> > this post ... comes across like emotional blackmail.
> >
> > Tabitha
>>
> Please be sensitive to the feelings of others and don't jump to conclusions about them, post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down, or exaggerate or overgeneralize. Please?
>
> Thanks,
>
> BobDear Bob, I don't consider my statement to be an accusation. An accusation would be 'You are using emotional blackmail.' What I said is feedback about how her post might be read. If Kristen's intent is to get emotional support from us, then she needs some feedback about her approach. Protecting her from such feedback with the civility rule is not going to help the situation.
Posted by Phil on October 28, 2003, at 15:20:08
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by stjames on October 28, 2003, at 11:03:54
Posted by shar on October 28, 2003, at 19:18:14
In reply to Civility Standard Dr. Bob, posted by Susan J on October 28, 2003, at 10:04:25
Wow, you really said that well. I agree completely. There is something in the Bible (or perhaps just in the religious events I attended) that says 'hate the sin, love the sinner.'
I am, of course, not saying that gal is a sinner, it is the IDEA of behavior versus the person I am trying to support. It is very possible that gal is just one of us, who has her own pain, etc., and it is not HER that has upset some of us, but her behavior.
You said it well, very well, Susan. No doubt you are a most excellent advocate when it is called for.
Shar
Posted by shar on October 28, 2003, at 20:03:16
In reply to My email to Bob 10:40pm PST, posted by galkeepinon on October 28, 2003, at 0:45:43
> I know that a poster a while back committed suicide, and I would hate that to happen again.
>Gal,
A while back Sar committed suicide. She had posted about previous attempts, but for the board she added a mix of humor, insight, and support. In my opinion, she couldn't take into her heart that people really cared about her.She was from the same town I live in, which made it just more poignant for me.
When anybody indicates they are in enough pain to end their life, I learned from Sar, there is not enough one can do to try to get them another day, another week of life, because things CAN change.
Perhaps your earlier posts (as one who had supposedly committed suicide) touched something in many of us that have felt that all too often. Or, maybe caused grief at the loss of so much promise. Like Sar, who had so much promise. And, then to find out it wasn't real......well, it's like something you love being taken away, and then..oops, not really. Like being told your dog or cat had been killed, and finding out it wasn't true. (I am a real animal lover, so that example is meaningful to me, but I don't know if it is to you.)
At any rate, I think I can say with some degree of certainty that people here are doing the best they can. Some can be your friend again, some cannot. Those are just facts of life when something as dear as life is toyed with. I would recommend that you go with those who CAN be your friends.
Your posts as Gal (and I like the name you chose), seem to have been supportive of others, and participative in the board in general. If supporting others is what you're here for, you will be appreciated. If you are here for absolution, you will probably be disappointed, because life is so precious to some that we/they cannot just dismiss previous events.
I guess the final question is: what is your goal? This forum is for support (of others, mainly) and you can count on SOME support, but maybe not all you'd like to have.
I don't think you need to leave. I think if you can stay and be a supportive participant, and/or talk about your own personal issues (without focusing on previous events) you will be accepted enough by some to make staying worthwhile.
If you don't feel accepted ENOUGH to continue, there are other boards to post on. But, that's a choice you have to make, not us. To me, Gal has seemed a positive influence, and I have no desire that you leave.
I do, however, regret what was done before. But, that wasn't Gal, that was someone else, and the way posters change names around here.......well, that's another topic altogether, eh?
Shar
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 28, 2003, at 23:52:08
In reply to Civility Standard Dr. Bob, posted by Susan J on October 28, 2003, at 10:04:25
> > > I hate what you did. I really hate what you did.
>
> I used I statements, and I wasn't exaggerating. More confusion.
>
> Lar> I am confused too. I would think that "I hate you" would be uncivil but "I hate what you did" would not be. The latter makes a definite point of distinguish between the *behavior* and the *person*.
>
> Michael> I thought it was a supportive statement of Kristen, validating her value as a human being, yet correctly stating certain behavior bothered Larry. If he can't say that, how can bad behavior ... ever be addressed?
>
> SusanYes, it's definitely more civil to say you hate what someone did than you hate them. But why even say you hate what they did? It's fine to give someone feedback as long as its constructive. How constructive is it to say you hate what they did?
Would I feel supported if someone said they hated what I did? No.
> > > this post ... comes across like emotional blackmail.
>
> I don't consider my statement to be an accusation. An accusation would be 'You are using emotional blackmail.' What I said is feedback about how her post might be read.
>
> Tabitha1. IMO, that isn't feedback about how her post might be read, but how it does read.
2. As above, yes, it's more civil than some alternatives. But it's not constructive. Or an I statement. I wouldn't feel supported if someone said my post came across like emotional blackmail.
> If the *civility* standard is so *restrictive* that people cannot communicate effectively, perhaps it's truly time to modify it.The whole point of the civility standard is to be restrictive. To restrict communication of certain types.
> As an attorney, my view on the law in general, is that it's a *tool* that serves the good of the people, and that people do not serve the *law.* ... Analogous to that, then, the civility standard here must serve the good of the posters
>
> SusanThe purpose of the civility standard is in fact to serve the good of the community. By maintaining a supportive atmosphere. But that means restricting the freedom of some individuals at some times.
Bob
Posted by galkeepinon on October 29, 2003, at 1:49:24
In reply to Re: My email to Bob 10:40pm PST » galkeepinon, posted by shar on October 28, 2003, at 20:03:16
Shar,
I'm sorry that Sar's incident was more poignant for you, I understand.
Thank you for reminding me that things CAN change, I appreciate that. Sometimes believing it is much harder for me.
I can relate to your animal amalogy, I am a total dog person, have been since I was little. I understand your point, I really do. Your example was meaningful to me.
Hopefully you have seen my post 'Follow Up'.
Regarding absolution, I don't expect anyone who was hurt by what I did a few months ago to be buddy buddy with me. I have accepted that even in real life, offline, people are people, I cannot change them. I'm now trying to put myself in their positions as to how I would feel if the tables were turned. I'm learning...
My post 'Follow Up' gave my goals and reasons for wanting to be here. You gave me a lot of good questions, thanks.
Life is so precious, I agree, it got so overwhelming for me and I couldn't take it anymore. It started to remind me of the horrible rejection I received in my past, not only from peers, but my own father and my grandmother, I'm just trying to move on. Maybe this will help me finally come to terms with the fact that rejection will and does happen in life. My therapist gave me some really good insight this morning concerning that and my own personal values, standards, etc.
Hey, I still cannot dismiss previous events concerning my father, so I understand what you're saying. *head down*
This board is part of my support system, and it makes me feel good knowing that I can help others in some way because I can't work right now, so I'm limited to what I can give in life except on the internet.
I just keep telling myself that the past is done, it's unchangeable, I have to move on. This is in no way meant to discount the people who were really hurt by my actions, and it has taught me a lot about other people's feelings when at that time, I was so into my own.
I'm going to be looking for some other boards also, I know there's tons out there.
Yeah, the topic of posters changing names is another story, but that's ok, people do it for different reasons and they're entitled to that, imo.
It does make it hard sometimes for us all, I wish it didn't have to be that way, but I guess it just is.
>>>>>>>Gal has seemed a positive influence, and I have no desire that you leave.Thanks Shar and take care.
Posted by jay on October 29, 2003, at 5:01:03
In reply to Re: Well, now I feel stupid and exposed. :(, posted by Dinah on October 28, 2003, at 8:58:15
> I am *waaay* too self disclosing sometimes. I
> must talk to my therapist about that today.Dinah...I honestly don't think there is anything wrong with your post and self-disclosure. I am sorry it made you feel uneasy. My personal belief is that our society has become cold in that people greatly hold back deep expressions of empathy. I have always viewed 99 percent of being 'sensitive' as being strong. IMHO, I think it is in our weaker moments that we hold back, and I also think that takes away from our "human" qualities. I am a very, very sensitive, emotional and empathetic guy, and society still holds prejudice against that quality in men. I think it is a beautiful quality in both women and men. Please don't ever be ashamed of it. :-)
Best as always..
Jay
Posted by justyourlaugh on October 29, 2003, at 10:08:38
In reply to Re: Well, now I feel stupid and exposed. :( » Dinah, posted by jay on October 29, 2003, at 5:01:03
"True!-nervous-very, very dreadfully nervous i had been and am; but why will you say that i am mad? The disease has sharpened my senses-not destroyed-not dulled them."
The Tell-Tale Heart
poe
Posted by shar on October 29, 2003, at 19:46:11
In reply to Re: Well, now I feel stupid and exposed. :(, posted by justyourlaugh on October 29, 2003, at 10:08:38
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Administration | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.