![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 55. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Phillipa on November 21, 2010, at 12:21:31
This is a public apology to anyone reading or posting that I might have hurt their feelings without knowing. It would be nice if we could all help to bring the Community back into harmony. So Sorry to anyone I may have hurt my deepest apologies. Love and Kindness to all here.
Posted by Maxime on November 21, 2010, at 13:07:39
In reply to Public Apology To All Past And Present, posted by Phillipa on November 21, 2010, at 12:21:31
Apology NOT accepted.
Too much damage is done. And I don't feel like your apology is sincere. It looks good to Dr. Bob I am sure, so you will get bonus points there which I know you will love. And other members will pat you on the back and say "there, there, it's ok.". And that is fine because we can only speak as individuals on this board.
The reason I don't feel that the apology is sincere is because I don't believe you understand what you have done over the years (and again, and again, and again). I believe that you have a good heart. But I also believe that for some reason, maybe related to something in your past, you feel the need to get involved in people's business and spread that information around rather than keep it to yourself. I think part of it is because you are lonely. Still I do not, and will not excuse this behaviour ever especially since I have been on the receiving end twice.
Posted by Willful on November 21, 2010, at 14:18:27
In reply to Re: Public Apology To All Past And Present » Phillipa, posted by Maxime on November 21, 2010, at 13:07:39
Apologies are a great thing. But after a certain point, if you apologize and don't change the behavior and simply apologize each time, it begins to seem insincere.
Not saying that this is the case here, just pointing out something I've experienced personally.
Willful
Posted by Phillipa on November 21, 2010, at 17:24:17
In reply to Re: Public Apology To All Past And Present » Phillipa, posted by Maxime on November 21, 2010, at 13:07:39
Would you feel better to know that yes I was raped when a teen. But then there was no such thing as "Date Rape" you were just expected to accepted it and forget it. Would you feel better to know my ex broke my nose which required the hospital to fix. But the worst thing that has happened to me is the words to this day I think of daily from my long deceased Mother who blamed me for her illness, screamed and foamed at the mouth while kicking and screaming at me? Blamed me daily for all her problems. So I learned early to apologize and not stick up for myself. But the physical stuff is long forgotten. It's the verbal/emotional abuse that remains and my fears of saying one word wrong. Because of the death at age 17 of my Mother I went into nursing to try and make up for killing my Mother. Which I fully believe I did. Even today my husband tells me I didn't kill her because she said carrying me up two flights of stairs when a baby is what made her sick. But even at almost age 65 I will never ever forget that I killed her. Hence everytime a physical illness since she wished them on me also I know I deserve it.
Posted by Solstice on November 21, 2010, at 17:40:32
In reply to Re: Public Apology To All Past And Present, posted by Willful on November 21, 2010, at 14:18:27
> Apologies are a great thing. But after a certain point, if you apologize and don't change the behavior and simply apologize each time, it begins to seem insincere.
>
> Not saying that this is the case here, just pointing out something I've experienced personally.
>
> WillfulInteresting point you make here, Willful. Apologies can indeed be seductive, even when the apology is not backed up by a change in behavior. The best, and truest, apologies (in my opinion) include a clear acknowledgment of the action one is apologizing for, and a clear acknowledgment of how that action affected the harmed party. It's even better if the apologizor describes the changes they intend to make so as not to do it again. I know I give my teenagers grief awhen they repeatly apologize for behavior that doesn't change, or at least move toward change. I tell them that the best way to apologize to me is to NOT do it again!
Trouble is... that we can't 'make' someone 'see' their behavior and the harm it causes. Many people are stuck in long-standing behavior patterns that are (mis)driven by some need they have, and they really don't 'get' how much harm they might be causing. Unfortunately, the person who is being harmed can be even further harmed if they allow themselves to need an apology/change-in-behavior that may never happen.
'Forgiveness' is just as tricky as apology. An apology that is not accompanied by acknowledgment and then followed by a change in behavior isn't an apology in my eyes. Without that, an apology is little more than a request for another free pass. The person doing the harm who says "Oh! I'm sorry!" and then does it again is *really* saying "Oh! I hope you'll overlook what I'm doing, because I don't plan on stopping it!" What I really love is when someone repeatedly commits the same offense over and over, and glibbly apologizes over and over.. then when you get fed up and tell them it's 'over' they say "Well! You're not very forgiving!" good grief.
With forgiveness, we get stuck because we think that to forgive is to let the other person off the hook, to say "what you did is no big deal." It's not. It took me a looooooong, long time to understand it. Forgiveness does NOT let the other party off the hook. To forgive someone who has harmed us is to let go of our desire that they change, that they 'see' the harm they've done, that they feel bad about it, and that justice be done - that they somehow face a consequence. We have control over some consequences some times. If someone repeatedly hurts us by saying bad things about us to others, we can't make them feel bad or make them change, but we Can cut off the relationship. I used to have a very hard time with that. I thought that if I just said the right thing, did the right thing, felt the right thing.. the other person would 'see' the light and make amends. I've finally learned that 'bout the only thing I can do is first, go to that person and explain how their behavior affected me. If they respond in a way that tells me they want to make amends, I'll give them another chance. If they do it again, I might talk to them again and pull away.. but after the third time.. my options are limited to: 1)accept that this is a persistent behavior, and if I want that person in my life, I'll have to learn to be okay despite it - and to expect it to continue; or 2) walk away from the relationship. I think the important thing is to not trust someone who has not proven trustworthy. I wouldn't trust a thief to look after my purse, and I also wouldn't trust loose lips with details of my life or my vulnerable moments. We have no control over what others choose to do, but we do have control over how much we expose ourselves to them.
Solstice
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 21, 2010, at 17:52:14
In reply to Public Apology To All Past And Present, posted by Phillipa on November 21, 2010, at 12:21:31
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 21, 2010, at 18:07:38
In reply to Re: Public Apology To All Past And Present, posted by Solstice on November 21, 2010, at 17:40:32
> Trouble is... that we can't 'make' someone 'see' their behavior and the harm it causes. Many people are stuck in long-standing behavior patterns that are (mis)driven by some need they have, and they really don't 'get' how much harm they might be causing.
>
> 'Forgiveness' is just as tricky as apology. An apology that is not accompanied by acknowledgment and then followed by a change in behavior isn't an apology in my eyes. ... What I really love is when someone repeatedly commits the same offense over and over, and glibbly apologizes over and over.. then when you get fed up and tell them it's 'over' they say "Well! You're not very forgiving!" good grief.
>
> Forgiveness does NOT let the other party off the hook. ... We have control over some consequences some times. If someone repeatedly hurts us by saying bad things about us to others, we can't make them feel bad or make them change, but we Can cut off the relationship. ... I've finally learned that 'bout the only thing I can do is first, go to that person and explain how their behavior affected me. If they respond in a way that tells me they want to make amends, I'll give them another chance. If they do it again, I might talk to them again and pull away.. but after the third time.. my options are limited ... We have no control over what others choose to do, but we do have control over how much we expose ourselves to them.I can identify. :-)
Bob
Posted by Willful on November 21, 2010, at 23:47:39
In reply to Re: Public Apology To All Past And Present, posted by Solstice on November 21, 2010, at 17:40:32
Interesting points, Solstice.
For me so far, it isn't a black and white situation. I may know that someone's behavior will persist and decide to have them in my life, despite that-- but I"m not sure that it's quite as simple as accepting their behavior as a given. That is, perhaps it would be ideal if I could be so impervious to their repeatedly hurting my feelings-- and could see it as my decision and be content with that. But for me, life is a bit messier-- and I can't always simply cut them off, or clearly accept their limitations without objection.
So for me there's a middle ground between those two, even if it's not a comfortable one, of being in a cycle of repeated hurt and possibly repeated frustration or annoyance with someone. It feels like a morass and perhaps it is one, but for me, life so far hasn't involved many clear up/down yes/no choices. In those situations, perhaps like this one, you are drawn into behaving badly yourself as the price of having the other person in your life. I don't know if it's a price worth paying, but sometimes relationships, or community, bring out less good sides of ourselves in the process of our adapting to, or integrating with another important person or group.
I agree that apologies, to be real apologies, have to be in the form, I am sorry for doing x. I am sorry if I have done x has never seemed like an apology, nor does the similar, I apologize for anything I"ve done to hurt you-- because the issue is invariably one of a specific act or pattern of acts, and one of things done, not things which if they were done would need an apology.
I'm of two minds about forgiveness, to which I prefer turning toward oneself and looking for what in oneself is a challenge, just as this issue, is a challenge for the other person--and thereby identifying with the other person's struggle as like one's own--even if they are not as aware of the struggle or are not successful in meeting the challenge.. I don't necessarily think it's easy to carry this out -- and it's made more difficult by the tangential nature of relationships in online communities, where one can sometimes seem to see only the problematic aspects of the other person, rather than having a fuller sense of their virtues and limitations.
I imagine everyone involved in this thread has internal issues that drew them into the discussion-- limitations and frustrations that were evoked by the limitations and frustrations of others. I suppose that's very much what happens in communities, where people are connected enough to evoke these echoes within each others minds. This can cause outbreaks of hurtfulness, which are hard to heal-- again here especially since our ties are so ephemeral.
So I think we can only inhabit this middle ground where some things with some people can be resolved for a period of time, but there will always be lapses and regressions-- and mistakes made.
I just wish the moderation here were more consistent and ongoing, so some of this could be nipped in the bud. Especially now with the ability to apologize for actions or words, I feel as if more immediate responses could lead to more civility and fewer, or shorter blocks. Maybe someday--
Willful
Posted by Solstice on November 22, 2010, at 10:26:47
In reply to Re: Public Apology To All Past And Present, posted by Willful on November 21, 2010, at 23:47:39
> For me so far, it isn't a black and white situation. I may know that someone's behavior will persist and decide to >have them in my life, despite that-- but I"m not sure that it's quite as simple as accepting their behavior as a >given.
There sure isn't much that's black and white, for sure. And you are right - it's not a simplistic 'oh well.. that's just how they are,' especially when we're talking about family members.
That said, if someone has a persistent pattern of behavior, those things generally do not change unless it becomes so painful to that person for them to continue it, that they initiate a change. Think about people who repeatedly end up in jail.. you'd think they'd be miserable enough the first time to make sure they avoid it? Well, they often don't. I've got a dear friend who I love so much.. but she bounces checks constantly. She can't afford her bounced checks. She gets in trouble. She ends up paying out so much money in fines, etc., that you'd think she would stop impulsively writing checks and them forgetting to make sure they are covered! But she doesn't. It hasn't become painful enough for her to figure out how to put a stop to it. I love her dearly, but I would NOT want to be married to her! I can tolerate it as her friend because it does not directly impact me.. but I would not tolerate it in a mate. Point is that with persistent patterns of behavior.. it is just not realistic to count on those patterns changing. If I love that person enough that the relationship is important to me to keep, then I will just accept that the behavior is not likely to change, and will find a way to make it impact me as little as possible. That's kind of the whole basis of boundaries. For example, say your beloved sister has an issue with your mother, but you don't. So every time sister calls, the conversation eventually heads toward disrespect and anger about Mom. You can get angry about Sister hanging onto that anger and spilling it into your life all the time, and you can demand that she shut the heck up about it. But if it persists, you can pretty much bank on it that Sis is not gonna stop. But, what you CAN do, is tell Sis "Hey look, I love you tons, but I can'd handle listening to your anger about Mom. I want to hear all about your life, your kids, your struggles, your successes... but not about Mom. So here's what I'm going to do.. if our conversation heads there, I'll try to get you to drop it. But if you refuse to drop it, I'm going to have to tell you that I've got to exit this conversation, and to please call me back when you want to talk about things other than Mom." Of course, Sis can have a number of reactions that evolve over time. She can be offended and get mad at you. She might start talking about you to Mom! But it also might get her attention and she might find others to complain to about Mom, and just stay away from that topic with you. The important thing on your end is that your satisfaction with life is not hinging on Sis changing her ways... and you have found a way to protect yourself from the poison, which still maintaining the relationship. It was REALLY a big deal for me to learn that I am not responsible for 'making' someone else change their behavior.. and more importantly... that it is foolish for me to hinge my happiness on whether or not somone else changes their behavior. The saying "The only person you can change is YOU" doesn't necessarily mean that you are doing something wrong that needs to change. I think it more often means that you may need to change your expectations - and modify your boundaries to limit the access of unwanted behavior - sort of like my example of telling Sis that you aren't going to stay on the phone if she persists in dissing Mom.
>That is, perhaps it would be ideal if I could be so impervious to their repeatedly hurting my feelings-- and could see it as my decision and be content with that. But for me, life is a bit messier-- and I can't always simply cut them off, or clearly accept their limitations without objection.Well.. like I described above, if you change your expectation to match what keeps taking place "This person is going to continue ______, which hurts my feelings".. the change in expectation kind of helps us realize that it's not about "us"... which might even make it less hurtful. You'll be better braced for the inevitable. And as far as objecting... you can and should object. You can object with your feet.. by walking away each and every time the person says hurtful things. You probably won't be able to get them to feel it from your perspective.. but if that person values having a relationship with you, then it will pain them when you emotionally and physically withdraw from them. If you don't withdraw, then they will justifiably believe that you don't have a problem with their behavior. So object with your feet. Withdraw yourself emotionally, and walk out. Sometimes silence and withdrawal has a powerful effect on the offender, and it will certainly be effective in protecting you from any more hurtful comments, and even in protecting the relationship from a big verbal fight.
> So for me there's a middle ground between those two, even if it's not a comfortable one, of being in a cycle of repeated hurt and possibly repeated frustration or annoyance with someone. It feels like a morass and perhaps it is one, but for me, life so far hasn't involved many clear up/down yes/no choices. In those situations, perhaps like this one, you are drawn into behaving badly yourself as the price of having the other person in your life. I don't know if it's a price worth paying, but sometimes relationships, or community, bring out less good sides of ourselves in the process of our adapting to, or integrating with another important person or group.I'm not sure I see it the same way as you do here. I don't think anyone needs to subject themselves to bad behavior, and we ALWAYS have the choice of refusing to engage.
> I imagine everyone involved in this thread has internal issues that drew them into the discussion-- limitations and frustrations that were evoked by the limitations and frustrations of others.Rightly said, Willful. Like Bob says, we're all at different places. When we are in pain, we are much less able to control our reactions to triggers. I was in so much pain for so long... so believe me, I have a lot of experience with being in intense pain, and that renderig me unable to exercise mature self-restraint when triggered. It's kinda like when a sweet little dog gets injured - and the pain is so intense that they will bite anyone who comes near - even the person they know loves them. So it really is important on here to be aware of people being in different places with their life experiences, and in their road to healing. It's not about "good" and "bad" people. It's just about some people still being in too much pain to be able to manage themselves as well as they would if they were not in pain. Compassion is great in those times. I've been the recipient of lots of compassion.
> I just wish the moderation here were more consistent and ongoing, so some of this could be nipped in the bud. Especially now with the ability to apologize for actions or words, I feel as if more immediate responses could lead to more civility and fewer, or shorter blocks. Maybe someday--I agree.. there are probably ways to make it work just as well and minimize the pain inflicted... but although we have a voice and can make suggestions, we are not in control of how the site is run.
Solstice
Posted by sigismund on November 22, 2010, at 12:34:02
In reply to Re: Public Apology To All Past And Present, posted by Willful on November 21, 2010, at 23:47:39
>and it's made more difficult by the tangential nature of relationships in online communities, where one can sometimes seem to see only the problematic aspects of the other person, rather than having a fuller sense of their virtues and limitations.
That seems right. Nice post.
Posted by Jay_Clockwork_Angels on November 22, 2010, at 19:00:36
In reply to Re: Apologies, posted by Dr. Bob on November 21, 2010, at 18:07:38
> > Trouble is... that we can't 'make' someone 'see' their behavior and the harm it causes. Many people are stuck in long-standing behavior patterns that are (mis)driven by some need they have, and they really don't 'get' how much harm they might be causing.
> >
> > 'Forgiveness' is just as tricky as apology. An apology that is not accompanied by acknowledgment and then followed by a change in behavior isn't an apology in my eyes. ... What I really love is when someone repeatedly commits the same offense over and over, and glibbly apologizes over and over.. then when you get fed up and tell them it's 'over' they say "Well! You're not very forgiving!" good grief.
> >
> > Forgiveness does NOT let the other party off the hook. ... We have control over some consequences some times. If someone repeatedly hurts us by saying bad things about us to others, we can't make them feel bad or make them change, but we Can cut off the relationship. ... I've finally learned that 'bout the only thing I can do is first, go to that person and explain how their behavior affected me. If they respond in a way that tells me they want to make amends, I'll give them another chance. If they do it again, I might talk to them again and pull away.. but after the third time.. my options are limited ... We have no control over what others choose to do, but we do have control over how much we expose ourselves to them.
>
> I can identify. :-)
>
> BobWell, if I can throw in my 2.6 (Canadian) cents...I believe it is possible to hold a "never say never" stance. This is why I don't believe much in behaviouralism. That is, because, I think our social mores, personal philisophical values..okay, our social conscience... deserves much more attention than it gets. What you think the consequences should be for something requiring an apology is a similar framework used for larger questions like "Do you believe in the death penalty?". You most likely do or don't believe in it because of the values and such that you hold.
Bob, I think you would agree, that there are *never* no options. Yes, that comes from my personal philosophy, but I think is required consideration by both the "victim" and the "perpetrator", at some point in time. Otherwise...the whole world will go blind..etc...(sorry..just had to add that)
IMHO..YMMV..etc..
Jay
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 23, 2010, at 10:36:41
In reply to Re: Public Apology To All Past And Present, posted by Solstice on November 22, 2010, at 10:26:47
> I just wish the moderation here were more consistent and ongoing, so some of this could be nipped in the bud. Especially now with the ability to apologize for actions or words, I feel as if more immediate responses could lead to more civility and fewer, or shorter blocks. Maybe someday--
>
> Willful> although we have a voice and can make suggestions, we are not in control of how the site is run.
>
> SolsticeThe ability to apologize isn't anything new. You're in control of that.
I wish apologies were more consistent and ongoing. More immediate apologies could lead to more civility and fewer or no blocks. Maybe someday.
Bob
Posted by 10derheart on November 23, 2010, at 16:22:05
In reply to Re: Apologies, posted by Dr. Bob on November 23, 2010, at 10:36:41
Amen, Dr. Bob. Amen.
Posted by Solstice on November 23, 2010, at 17:47:07
In reply to Re: Apologies, posted by Dr. Bob on November 23, 2010, at 10:36:41
*Priceless*!
> > I just wish the moderation here were more consistent and ongoing, so some of this could be nipped in the bud. Especially now with the ability to apologize for actions or words, I feel as if more immediate responses could lead to more civility and fewer, or shorter blocks. Maybe someday--
> >
> > Willful
> I wish apologies were more consistent and ongoing. More immediate apologies could lead to more civility and fewer or no blocks. Maybe someday.
>
> Bob
Posted by Willful on November 24, 2010, at 8:55:58
In reply to Re: Apologies, posted by Solstice on November 23, 2010, at 17:47:07
I suppose we all have different phantasies about the path to nirvana..
Frequently, they boil down, in some way, to thinking the other person should shape up, fix it, or just be nicer about it.
Sometimes I think if Bob were more of a dictator, but had a more warm and smiling presence, we would be a lot "happier" here. I notice I"m much more frustrated by him for combining the social and health boards than I would have been if he hadn't asked for opinions, and I hadn't put the energy into trying to convince him not to. Maybe you should worry about getting what you wish for-- ie more consultation maybe worse than a benevolent dictatorship, despite our thinking that we prefer it.
Willful
Posted by Maxime on December 13, 2010, at 5:33:29
In reply to Re: Public Apology To All Past And Present » Maxime, posted by Phillipa on November 21, 2010, at 17:24:17
> Would you feel better to know that yes I was raped when a teen. But then there was no such thing as "Date Rape" you were just expected to accepted it and forget it. Would you feel better to know my ex broke my nose which required the hospital to fix. But the worst thing that has happened to me is the words to this day I think of daily from my long deceased Mother who blamed me for her illness, screamed and foamed at the mouth while kicking and screaming at me? Blamed me daily for all her problems. So I learned early to apologize and not stick up for myself. But the physical stuff is long forgotten. It's the verbal/emotional abuse that remains and my fears of saying one word wrong. Because of the death at age 17 of my Mother I went into nursing to try and make up for killing my Mother. Which I fully believe I did. Even today my husband tells me I didn't kill her because she said carrying me up two flights of stairs when a baby is what made her sick. But even at almost age 65 I will never ever forget that I killed her. Hence everytime a physical illness since she wished them on me also I know I deserve it.
Of course I don't feel better knowing the above. I wouldn't want it to happen to anyone. But I fail to see what it has to do with an apology.
I would feel better if you acknowledge exactly what you and how it effected others. I feel it's very easy to say the words "I'm sorry" to quieten the other person. I have seen it happen between spouses a lot.
I was in the hospital for a week when I was blocked. I brought by a social worker to my house to pick up some of my things because I had nothing with me at the hospital and they didn't trust me to be on my own. My psychiatrist asked me to print up a lot of this thread and the ones that lead up to it and give them to him.
A couple of days letter we talked about it all. for over 2 hours. He was appalled at what when on. I can't say much more than that or else I will get blocked again. But he did say that depression and anxiety are more than what is at play here.
My brother stayed with my mom whilst I was in the hospital and he came on my computer and found the site because it was in my history. He figured out who I was and he was disgusted at what when on and with the board in general.
So Phillipa, I do not accept your apology.
Posted by twinleaf on December 14, 2010, at 13:20:43
In reply to Re: Public Apology To All Past And Present » Phillipa, posted by Maxime on December 13, 2010, at 5:33:29
While it's impossible to be certain about what happens behind the scenes in Babblemails and e-mails, and presumption of innocence is always a given, one needs to ask what the most fair and protective administrative position would be if what Maxime has said here is true.
It's worth noting that her own psychiatrist believes what she has said, and is apparently quite distressed by it.. While a strict interpretation of the civility rules would mean that a block for Maxine is (more or less) in order, I don't think we have any guidelines for Babblemails, which are also a part of Psychobabble.
When a community member makes allegations that are this serious, I think we need to have some way to make sure any relevant issues are fully addressed, either by the administration or by administrative delegates, If that isn't done, we may be averting our eyes while members are exposed to inappropriate and dangerous behind the scenes communications.
Posted by twinleaf on December 14, 2010, at 13:35:40
In reply to a note of concern..., posted by twinleaf on December 14, 2010, at 13:20:43
In stating this concern, I am assuming that Babblemails are part of the experience here, and as such, should be subject to civility guidelines. Babblemail can definitely help in building relationships and sharing information and knowledge, but it does have the potential to become harmful if it is used to communicate feelings and thoughts which would be unacceptable under the civility guidelines.
If one shares an e-mail address, on the other hand, a private communication channel is created which is not part of Babble and is not subject to civility guidelines.
Posted by PartlyCloudy on December 14, 2010, at 13:35:43
In reply to a note of concern..., posted by twinleaf on December 14, 2010, at 13:20:43
> While it's impossible to be certain about what happens behind the scenes in Babblemails and e-mails, and presumption of innocence is always a given, one needs to ask what the most fair and protective administrative position would be if what Maxime has said here is true.
>
> It's worth noting that her own psychiatrist believes what she has said, and is apparently quite distressed by it.. While a strict interpretation of the civility rules would mean that a block for Maxine is (more or less) in order, I don't think we have any guidelines for Babblemails, which are also a part of Psychobabble.
>
> When a community member makes allegations that are this serious, I think we need to have some way to make sure any relevant issues are fully addressed, either by the administration or by administrative delegates, If that isn't done, we may be averting our eyes while members are exposed to inappropriate and dangerous behind the scenes communications.
>
>
>
>
Hi Twinleaf,
Babblemails are and have always been included within the civility guidelines. Personal email communications between members are not (this is my understanding). I believe this is addressed in the FAQs already.Interpersonal dynamics are what drew me here in the first place and also part of what triggers me :-/
My therapist's advice has been to leave Babble long ago; I often feel, however, that I receive more support here, anonymously and amongst my peers, than I ever would IRL. It's different and yet important in how we are able where we are each coming from - you don't often get that in face-to-face situations.
pc
Posted by twinleaf on December 14, 2010, at 13:54:24
In reply to Re: a note of concern... » twinleaf, posted by PartlyCloudy on December 14, 2010, at 13:35:43
Oh, ok. That's good to know. In a case like this one, I notice that Maxime was blocked because her allegations could have made Phillipa feel put down. But what happens to Maxime's allegations about the content of Phillipa's Babblemails to her? Are these investigated privately? Are there penalties of some sort to Phillipa if Maximes allegations are found to be accurate? I believe this situation concerns inappropriate statements which contributed to an episode of self-injury - an extremely serious situation- so much more serious than just delivering a put-down. It doesn't appear that anything is being done, although I could be wrong.
Yes. I think many people would agree with you - that Babble does provide a special sort of understanding and support. I guess that's why we are all here, despite many difficulties.
Posted by Solstice on December 14, 2010, at 14:24:57
In reply to a note of concern..., posted by twinleaf on December 14, 2010, at 13:20:43
> While it's impossible to be certain about what happens behind the scenes in Babblemails and e-mails, and presumption of innocence is always a given, one needs to ask what the most fair and protective administrative position would be if what Maxime has said here is true.
>
> It's worth noting that her own psychiatrist believes what she has said, and is apparently quite distressed by it.. While a strict interpretation of the civility rules would mean that a block for Maxine is (more or less) in order, I don't think we have any guidelines for Babblemails, which are also a part of Psychobabble.
>
> When a community member makes allegations that are this serious, I think we need to have some way to make sure any relevant issues are fully addressed, either by the administration or by administrative delegates, If that isn't done, we may be averting our eyes while members are exposed to inappropriate and dangerous behind the scenes communications.
>
I couldn't agree with you more, Twin. If Babblemail is used to make uncivil, accusatory, etc. comments to someone off-board, that person should be held just as accountable as if everything they said in the Babblemail had been posted on the boards.Of course, this would involve someone taking responsibility for investigating the legitimacy of the claims... but if someone is blocked for making a claim that Babblemail was used to perpetrate incivility, then in my opinion, there is a duty to determine the legtimacy of the claim and respond accordingly.
Solstice
Posted by twinleaf on December 14, 2010, at 14:52:46
In reply to Re: a note of concern..., posted by Solstice on December 14, 2010, at 14:24:57
I looked up the FAQs. PC is right: Babblemails are covered by the civility guidelines. In order for administration to take any action, the member who has received what he/she considers to be an inappropriate Babblemail needs to start the ball rolling by mailing a copy of the offensive message to Bob "with headers". I didn't see anything about what happens after that, This may not have been done very often.
Maxime, it could be very helpful, to you and to our entire community, if you did this. I think it's great to know that there is a way to seek redress from harmful Babblemails.
Posted by 10derheart on December 14, 2010, at 15:24:00
In reply to Re: a note of concern..., posted by twinleaf on December 14, 2010, at 14:52:46
Right, and Dinah pointed this out at the time:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20101029/msgs/970420.html
Dr. Bob (and hyperfocus as well) confirmed:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20101029/msgs/970950.html
I've sent what i thought were uncivil Babblemails to Dr. Bob in the past. I think in at least one case he disagreed it was uncivil, and in another....I can't recall for sure, he may have blocked, extended a block or given a PBC himself. I think it's a difficult balance. not wanting to stoke a fire by posting every detail of what went on behind the scenes (uncivil Babblemails, or, conversely those he thinks are fine but the recipient feels are uncivil), yet also realizing the community has no idea what, if anything was done. You're right, it is an uncommon thing. I think he tries to post something in the thread (IF there was a thread) if he acts so posters can understand what happened, particularly if a poster may disappear due to a block triggered by a Babblemail. Again, long time back, can't remember details.
You could ask Dr. Bob what happened with this particular situation. That's the only way to know. But, if Maxi deleted them without sending to Dr. Bob, I would think his hands were/are tied.
Also, as hard as it may be, we probably have to remind ourselves that 1) definitions of gossip may vary and 2) gossip isn't automatically uncivil under Babble guidelines, as Dr. Bob wrote. I guess other alternatives than Dr. Bob taking some action against anyone for Babblemail(s), like turning off your B-mail for a while, deleting B-mail from posters that trigger or with whom you aren't getting along, and so forth are some things we can do.
It's never going to be a case of finding a way to give complete shelter to those of us who are vulnerable. I wish, but it's just not possible or real in light of the nature of humans. So, I hope and pray posters will be kinder and more careful with one another, to the best of their abilities and that people who need more support will reach out for it in every way they can. For example, I see Maxime has offered an email address to friends, etc., in case it's needed because of any future block, so she won't feel cut off. That sounds smart and healthy to me.
Posted by twinleaf on December 14, 2010, at 15:35:42
In reply to Re: a note of concern... » twinleaf, posted by 10derheart on December 14, 2010, at 15:24:00
Oh, ok. I had not been following this thread, so I didn't know that Maxime had been encouraged by Bob and Dinah to submit her Babblemail. Perhaps she deleted it beforehand or decided not to submit it. Anyway, help is available, and was offered; maybe this episode will raise awareness of the potential for private Babblemails to cross the line, as well as the availability of administrative help.
Posted by PartlyCloudy on December 14, 2010, at 16:52:08
In reply to Re: a note of concern..., posted by twinleaf on December 14, 2010, at 13:54:24
> Oh, ok. That's good to know. In a case like this one, I notice that Maxime was blocked because her allegations could have made Phillipa feel put down. But what happens to Maxime's allegations about the content of Phillipa's Babblemails to her? Are these investigated privately? Are there penalties of some sort to Phillipa if Maximes allegations are found to be accurate? I believe this situation concerns inappropriate statements which contributed to an episode of self-injury - an extremely serious situation- so much more serious than just delivering a put-down. It doesn't appear that anything is being done, although I could be wrong.
>
> Yes. I think many people would agree with you - that Babble does provide a special sort of understanding and support. I guess that's why we are all here, despite many difficulties.I have also successfully pursued administrative action based on Babblemails I received.
pc
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