Posted by Solstice on November 22, 2010, at 10:26:47
In reply to Re: Public Apology To All Past And Present, posted by Willful on November 21, 2010, at 23:47:39
> For me so far, it isn't a black and white situation. I may know that someone's behavior will persist and decide to >have them in my life, despite that-- but I"m not sure that it's quite as simple as accepting their behavior as a >given.
There sure isn't much that's black and white, for sure. And you are right - it's not a simplistic 'oh well.. that's just how they are,' especially when we're talking about family members.
That said, if someone has a persistent pattern of behavior, those things generally do not change unless it becomes so painful to that person for them to continue it, that they initiate a change. Think about people who repeatedly end up in jail.. you'd think they'd be miserable enough the first time to make sure they avoid it? Well, they often don't. I've got a dear friend who I love so much.. but she bounces checks constantly. She can't afford her bounced checks. She gets in trouble. She ends up paying out so much money in fines, etc., that you'd think she would stop impulsively writing checks and them forgetting to make sure they are covered! But she doesn't. It hasn't become painful enough for her to figure out how to put a stop to it. I love her dearly, but I would NOT want to be married to her! I can tolerate it as her friend because it does not directly impact me.. but I would not tolerate it in a mate. Point is that with persistent patterns of behavior.. it is just not realistic to count on those patterns changing. If I love that person enough that the relationship is important to me to keep, then I will just accept that the behavior is not likely to change, and will find a way to make it impact me as little as possible. That's kind of the whole basis of boundaries. For example, say your beloved sister has an issue with your mother, but you don't. So every time sister calls, the conversation eventually heads toward disrespect and anger about Mom. You can get angry about Sister hanging onto that anger and spilling it into your life all the time, and you can demand that she shut the heck up about it. But if it persists, you can pretty much bank on it that Sis is not gonna stop. But, what you CAN do, is tell Sis "Hey look, I love you tons, but I can'd handle listening to your anger about Mom. I want to hear all about your life, your kids, your struggles, your successes... but not about Mom. So here's what I'm going to do.. if our conversation heads there, I'll try to get you to drop it. But if you refuse to drop it, I'm going to have to tell you that I've got to exit this conversation, and to please call me back when you want to talk about things other than Mom." Of course, Sis can have a number of reactions that evolve over time. She can be offended and get mad at you. She might start talking about you to Mom! But it also might get her attention and she might find others to complain to about Mom, and just stay away from that topic with you. The important thing on your end is that your satisfaction with life is not hinging on Sis changing her ways... and you have found a way to protect yourself from the poison, which still maintaining the relationship. It was REALLY a big deal for me to learn that I am not responsible for 'making' someone else change their behavior.. and more importantly... that it is foolish for me to hinge my happiness on whether or not somone else changes their behavior. The saying "The only person you can change is YOU" doesn't necessarily mean that you are doing something wrong that needs to change. I think it more often means that you may need to change your expectations - and modify your boundaries to limit the access of unwanted behavior - sort of like my example of telling Sis that you aren't going to stay on the phone if she persists in dissing Mom.
>That is, perhaps it would be ideal if I could be so impervious to their repeatedly hurting my feelings-- and could see it as my decision and be content with that. But for me, life is a bit messier-- and I can't always simply cut them off, or clearly accept their limitations without objection.Well.. like I described above, if you change your expectation to match what keeps taking place "This person is going to continue ______, which hurts my feelings".. the change in expectation kind of helps us realize that it's not about "us"... which might even make it less hurtful. You'll be better braced for the inevitable. And as far as objecting... you can and should object. You can object with your feet.. by walking away each and every time the person says hurtful things. You probably won't be able to get them to feel it from your perspective.. but if that person values having a relationship with you, then it will pain them when you emotionally and physically withdraw from them. If you don't withdraw, then they will justifiably believe that you don't have a problem with their behavior. So object with your feet. Withdraw yourself emotionally, and walk out. Sometimes silence and withdrawal has a powerful effect on the offender, and it will certainly be effective in protecting you from any more hurtful comments, and even in protecting the relationship from a big verbal fight.
> So for me there's a middle ground between those two, even if it's not a comfortable one, of being in a cycle of repeated hurt and possibly repeated frustration or annoyance with someone. It feels like a morass and perhaps it is one, but for me, life so far hasn't involved many clear up/down yes/no choices. In those situations, perhaps like this one, you are drawn into behaving badly yourself as the price of having the other person in your life. I don't know if it's a price worth paying, but sometimes relationships, or community, bring out less good sides of ourselves in the process of our adapting to, or integrating with another important person or group.I'm not sure I see it the same way as you do here. I don't think anyone needs to subject themselves to bad behavior, and we ALWAYS have the choice of refusing to engage.
> I imagine everyone involved in this thread has internal issues that drew them into the discussion-- limitations and frustrations that were evoked by the limitations and frustrations of others.Rightly said, Willful. Like Bob says, we're all at different places. When we are in pain, we are much less able to control our reactions to triggers. I was in so much pain for so long... so believe me, I have a lot of experience with being in intense pain, and that renderig me unable to exercise mature self-restraint when triggered. It's kinda like when a sweet little dog gets injured - and the pain is so intense that they will bite anyone who comes near - even the person they know loves them. So it really is important on here to be aware of people being in different places with their life experiences, and in their road to healing. It's not about "good" and "bad" people. It's just about some people still being in too much pain to be able to manage themselves as well as they would if they were not in pain. Compassion is great in those times. I've been the recipient of lots of compassion.
> I just wish the moderation here were more consistent and ongoing, so some of this could be nipped in the bud. Especially now with the ability to apologize for actions or words, I feel as if more immediate responses could lead to more civility and fewer, or shorter blocks. Maybe someday--I agree.. there are probably ways to make it work just as well and minimize the pain inflicted... but although we have a voice and can make suggestions, we are not in control of how the site is run.
Solstice
poster:Solstice
thread:970920
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20101122/msgs/971005.html