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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Nadezda on September 16, 2008, at 9:57:45
All these years, I've been in a deep depression, which has moderated a lot with the right ADs and I guess a lot of work (which I don't think I'm aware of doing per se, but which must have been part of it, I think).
The thing is, my T has gotten really frustrated with me for not changing more and/or faster. He says I'm really adept at getting people to make an exception for me, and seeing me as somehow not able to meet ordinary rules and standards-- and that they give me some special waiver. Or if I don't think they will-- which I experience consciously as my feeling very afraid of the situation and unable to go-- I just avoid it, and stay inside this cocoon of isolation and private experience. but that means there's a lot of stuff I miss out on, which I now want to have a change to experience.So, when I go to see him, and try to talk about my hesitance or anxiety about doing things-- and about how to cope with it-- he gets really annoyed, frustrated or bored (or all of the above) -- and sort of stares at his cellphone or off into space, and scowls. He says the DBT people (I'm in a DBT group) can help me with strategies for comping with anxiety. That's not his job-- we're supposed to talk about the problem in some different way. Then when I don't know what to say, he gets mad.. He claims that I do know, and that if I don't know, it's only because I don't want to change, and he's told me how to go forward too many times, and he's not going to tell me again. I have no idea what he's told me. He says it's up to me now. So we sit there, and I feel completely baffled and at a loss. And then I start to get really mad and/or desperate about what he wants-- and he gets more and more irritated and tired of my failure to do whatever it is.
Things kind of spiral downward from there. This happens almost every time, unless I get some major idea, usually from talking to my boyfriend. But then the conversation runs out of steam the next day.
I honestly don't know what to talk about. I was wondering-- what do you all talk about-- if you don't talk about anxieties, fears, concerns-- which is calls my complaining and trying to get special treatment, which he now won't give me-- what do you associate to if not past experiences? --which he says he's tired of hearing about, because we've done that?
I really feel as if, if I don't get some idea of what I'm doing, I can't go in. It's gotten to the point where even though I get a lot out of the good conversations, the awkward, tension-filled sessions predominate by far and I'm really dispirited by his telling me that I might as well just leave if I don't know how I want him to help me. My boyfriend, who knows me really well, and who is much more sympathetic when we talk, says I also should know what to do-- so if anyone has any ideas what to associate to, or how to proceed, I be awfully happy to hear them.
Nadezda
Posted by sassyfrancesca on September 16, 2008, at 10:39:05
In reply to I have no idea what to talk about with my T, posted by Nadezda on September 16, 2008, at 9:57:45
I don't get it. A therapist shouldn't be showing anger, because you are not doing what he thinks you should be. This kind of "interaction" cannot be helpful or productive.
If it were me, I would tell him that. You are supposed to talk about whatever you need to; he is supposed to be empathic and reflect what you are saying.
Sassy
Posted by Phillipa on September 16, 2008, at 12:37:13
In reply to Re: I have no idea what to talk about with my T, posted by sassyfrancesca on September 16, 2008, at 10:39:05
Sassy same with the T's I've seen I'm supposed to know why I'm afraid of being alone or going out alone fine with my husband although he screams and yells that it's not his job to entertain me. Doesn't anyone understand that there is no rational explanation I can think of for my fears. Hence why didn't go back to T as the last session months ago she said well you've been coming for a year that is every three weeks and still you don't know why you're afraid why don't we just go a month and see what happens. To me this is her saying she doesn't want to help me. So I took the hint and don't see one anymore. And talk about boredom she was definitely bored with me. Heck couldn't remember she asked my husband and me to do an assignment and then said why is he here can't you even drive here alone. So no T. So there are not all compassionate. Well My rant is over. Love Phillipa whiner complainer according to my husband.
Posted by lucie lu on September 16, 2008, at 12:55:38
In reply to I have no idea what to talk about with my T, posted by Nadezda on September 16, 2008, at 9:57:45
N - I am horrified, to be blunt, about how your T seems to treat you. I'm so irritated on your behalf. If your BF is more supportive than your T, then well, you have a great BF and a terrible T. Dump him and take pleasure in it. Find someone who is encouraging and patient and builds you up rather than tears you down. This really should not be happening, Nadezhda, you deserve much b etter treatment. No wonder you don't want to talk to him. I wouldn't either.
Best of luck, Lucie
Posted by Dinah on September 16, 2008, at 13:01:13
In reply to I have no idea what to talk about with my T, posted by Nadezda on September 16, 2008, at 9:57:45
Do you still find him helpful?
I read the topic line and thought, "Wow. I've been wondering that too at times." But when I read the body of the post, I realized that this is not a problem I have ever faced with my therapist.
He has on occasion been impatient with my wanting to talk again about something we've already talked about. But when I talk to him, he generally understands that I often need to hear the same thing many times.
He's never shut down like that.
I understand all too well the negative spirals we can get in. They happen in therapy and with my family. I try to step back and talk about the spiral. I'll say something like "I noticed we've gotten into a negative spiral." Then I mention how I see the spiral and ask for their feedback. Then I state my desire to have a positive relationship with them and ask what they think we can do to change things, or I'll say what I intend to do on my side.
But it sounds as if you've done this, and his reaction just continues the negativity.
If you search down deep inside, do you think there is any truth to what he says? Do you know what he wants? If not, and if he doesn't believe you and isn't willing to help you, or if what he wants is not what you think you need, maybe it's time to ask that most dreaded of questions. Where do you see this therapy going. Where does he see this therapy going. Does he think it's run its course? Do you?
I know it's a terrifying question. But it's not a question that means the end of a therapy relationship. I've had this conversation with my therapist on occasion when I feel we've reached the end of a particular path. There may come a day when the result is to decide that we've gone as far as we can, but so far it's just led to planning a route for the next while.
Am I totally nuts, or do I recall you recently saying that things had calmed down with your therapist and you were getting along fairly well. Is this current difficulty recent? If so, maybe this too shall pass.
Posted by Partlycloudy on September 16, 2008, at 14:17:44
In reply to How about 'good-bye'? » Nadezda, posted by lucie lu on September 16, 2008, at 12:55:38
That was my thought on reading Nadezda's post, too. You need a therapist who is willing to think outside of their own box - they have to do work too, not just insist on us doing it.
I'd go walking.
pc
Posted by Wittgensteinz on September 16, 2008, at 14:25:50
In reply to I have no idea what to talk about with my T, posted by Nadezda on September 16, 2008, at 9:57:45
Nadezda,
This situation sounds very unpleasant. A few thoughts come to mind when I read your post.
Numerous times I've asked my therapist "isn't this boring you?", "what's the value of going over this again?", "I"m being too repetitive aren't I?" - and he's always given answers like "I'm not here to be entertained, I'm here to help you, to listen", "you can talk about these things as many times as you want to - I expect that" - "you can go over these things as often as you need to" - or simply "no you don't bore me".
My point is, the reactions and anger of your therapist seem the absolute opposite. It shouldn't matter if you 'bore him' - you're not there to entertain him, he's there to help you and listen. I think it's rude and hurtful of him to tell you such a thing. I think only you know when you're ready to move on and stop discussing a certain thing - he should be patient with you. I think therapists can push their clients forward in certain ways but this seems really harsh and it's counter-productive if you end up not knowing what to say or trying to figure out what he wants you to say.
In therapy I'll try to speak whatever comes to mind - speaking ones thoughts is not easy though. Discussions might be clearly important e.g. past traumas, big past events, or trivial things which can then be interpreted. Of course sometimes I try to avoid things by talking about mundane things, and that's not so constructive, but I usually know when I'm doing this and don't feel stuck if my therapist brings me back onto the topic I was avoiding.
I think you should talk to your T about how this is making you feel, how his views of what you have to say, and what you should be doing are making the therapy difficult, unpleasant.
Maybe this has got something to do with the type of therapy you are doing, I'm not sure. I hope things improve and that you both can get back to a good understanding of what you want.
Greetings,
Witti
Posted by Nadezda on September 16, 2008, at 16:20:01
In reply to Re: I have no idea what to talk about with my T » Nadezda, posted by Dinah on September 16, 2008, at 13:01:13
I do think it's somehow more complicated than I 've been able to say. I can't explain why I feel that, or why my therapy is different, at this point, from what most people get. Maybe it's that I've been so depressed for most of my life and used at conveying to people around me, for quite powerful reasons, that I just can't do whatever it is-- why I couldn't go to school very often, or, after high school, get good grades, or talk in class, or write understandable papers (I did eventually learn to do that, but it took me a long time and a lot of extra work)-- why I can't get a job (because I freak out in interview situations-- which I in fact do)-- Why I can't show my work to anyone (I'm too afraid that they'll hate it), or go to a painting class to pick up a particular technique (I feel too inadequate and that I won't be ablel to learn it, but will get muddled and be a failure) and on and on.
I don't know if my T is feeling hopeless at my ever pushing through all this mountain of fear and self-denigration, unless I'm forced to-- that I'll back away from the difficulties as I've always done-- even though the meds have helped a lot and I'm not in the emotional state I used to be in. I don't know if he feels that if he shows the least sympathy or acceptance of my desire to hide from all this-- figuratively-- I'll just continue all these lifelong patterns. He says I'm really good at evoking sympathy and "understanding" of my not being able to do things, so maybe he's being extra harsh because he feels as if this skill I have is getting in my way.
I know this wouldn't be right for most people-- and in lots of ways, it is very harsh and definitely not as nuanced as I wish it were. I do think he could be less mean. But I do see a lot of what he's saying, and I feel as if somehow I could be more competent and risk-taking in my life, if I could make more contact with parts of myself that I've lost touch with a long time ago.
At the same time, I do feel as though his not helping me more afffirmatively means a lot of appointments are pretty disastrous-- or, well, to be less self-dramatizing (as he says) pretty barren and stuck. I somehow get so caught in a certain stance of antagonism-- which I think is also understandable-- but which gets in my way, too-- and can't get away from the anger that goes along with it, even if at other times, I do see that I need to be more self-reliant and able to work my way through things, with more agency and self=affirmation in the absence of affirmation from outside.
I do go back and forth a lot about it. The last few years have been really full of turmoil in our relationship-- and I thought things were calming down-- but I guess he thinks I'm pulling back again. Which maybe I am. I'm just so used to running away from experiences and people.
He could do better-- but he is who he is-- so if he can help me, I think I should put up with his harshness-- I just wish I could be a lot stronger and more insightful and committed to what I need to do-- and I wish I knew how to work in therapy, what to think about, and what types of things would be helpful to talk about.
I really mean that. I feel as if I"m going to go and just sit there without knowing what to say, which is what happens a lot recently. It's like I'm not who I was before, but I'm not really anything else either. I have a feeling this doesn't explain it, but Ive already deleted another long post, so maybe I'll just have to try to do better later.
Thanks a lot for your response.
Nadezda
Posted by onceupon on September 16, 2008, at 16:23:39
In reply to I have no idea what to talk about with my T, posted by Nadezda on September 16, 2008, at 9:57:45
This sounds painful. I'm always concerned on some level that my therapist is sick of talking about the same things over and over again, but she's never indicated as such. One of the reasons why I talk about the same things so much is that I don't remember things very well session to session, so I can understand how you might have no idea what your therapist has been saying. I often only have a vague recollection of what my therapist says.
What is therapy for, if not to discuss our concerns?
If you want to work this out with your therapist, I hope that you can maybe try to have a talk with him about what you've just described in your post - about feeling clueless. If you don't want to work it out, or if it feels like you've already tried to no avail, it might just be time to move on. Even as I type that though, I'm cringing for you, because I know how difficult it can be to pick up and leave after having invested so much in a therapy relationship.
Good luck.
Posted by AbbieNormal on September 16, 2008, at 16:39:57
In reply to Re: I have no idea (long) » Dinah, posted by Nadezda on September 16, 2008, at 16:20:01
It's really difficult to see people post negative things about our T's. I think you've tried a bit to cover some of his poor behavior and blame yourself in your second post. But that's totally normal.
Here's an idea. Print your 2 posts and some of the replies you recieved and bring those to your next session. Let him read them. That'll give you something to talk about. Maybe if he sees his own behavior reflected back to himself, he'll see some way to work this out - even if this means giving you a referral to someone who is not so burnt out.
Although it likely sounds impossible, changing therapists can really help motivate us. Sometimes we can see our previous T's in a whole new light - and it's not so flattering.
Abbie
Posted by Angela2 on September 16, 2008, at 18:09:37
In reply to Re: I have no idea (long) » Dinah, posted by Nadezda on September 16, 2008, at 16:20:01
From my point of view, your therapist might be doing more harm than good for you. From what I see..he isn't helping you. I am with Lucie Lu on this one. I feel very angry with this man on your behalf. I think you mentioned that he mentioned something like "you are good at making people sympathize with you." That just sounds like...OK, then everybody with depression or anxiety or whatever schizophrenia and the lot make people feel bad for them because there are certain things they can't do in the depths of their problems. To me that's crap.
I feel like I can relate to you because I saw a T for 3 years who belittled me and said things to me that were mean but also sounded true. Let me tell you, if it hurts your feelings, and makes you feel bad, it isn't true. Anywho, I believe that seeing her, worsened my self esteem and also stunted my ability to grow positively.
Please be good to yourself Nadezda.
Posted by Dinah on September 16, 2008, at 18:25:04
In reply to Re: I have no idea (long) » Dinah, posted by Nadezda on September 16, 2008, at 16:20:01
I think Abbie may have a good idea. Expressing not only how you might feel about it, but how outsiders might see it, might jumpstart a discussion about what he's intending to do vs. what he's actually doing.
If you think reading the actual posts might be counterproductive, maybe summarizing it or suggesting how it might be seen from an objective viewpoint might be a gentler challenge to him.
You are taking too much responsibility for this, you know. Even if all you say is true, and you aren't being overly negative about yourself, he's responsible for his own reactions.
I'm not going to urge you to leave him. If you aren't ready to consider that I respect that. If you have considered it, and feel there are more reasons to stay than to go, I respect that too. There have been times when what I have written here make even me think I should leave. Then I feel guilty and ashamed for not leaving. So far we've always worked it out. Because both of us were willing to work to do that. I really hope that whatever you do, that you'll find a way to be kind to yourself.
Posted by Nadezda on September 16, 2008, at 22:53:32
In reply to Re: I have no idea (long) » Nadezda, posted by Dinah on September 16, 2008, at 18:25:04
about. I have to give more thought to what you all have said, before I can decide what to do, or how to go forward with my T.
I hope, too, with Dinah, that we can find some better way. My optimism or pessimism about that changes from hour to hour, but I will try not to be so overwhelmed with the sense that it's somehow useful for him to be this harsh, even if he feels that I need to approach things differently. I know I'm trying in good faith.
I'll be able to respond individually tomorrow, but I did want to thank you all for these thoughtful and really kind responses.
Nadezda
Posted by raisinb on September 17, 2008, at 11:42:12
In reply to I have no idea what to talk about with my T, posted by Nadezda on September 16, 2008, at 9:57:45
Sheesh, it sounds like your therapist is acting like a grade-A jerk. And, more importantly, not in a way that's likely to lead to change. He's supposed to keep his own frustrations and anxieties out of your therapy. Actually, telling him so in no uncertain terms might be, at the very least, a great experience in self-assertiveness.
I don't know the context, of course. It sounds like you've done valuable work with this therapist, and maybe he has a reason (I can't see what it could possibly be, but that's me :)) for what he is doing.
Posted by Nadezda on September 19, 2008, at 18:46:09
In reply to Re: I have no idea what to talk about with my T » Nadezda, posted by raisinb on September 17, 2008, at 11:42:12
Well, I've missed two appointments with him this week. That is, I haven't gone. I'm feeling very conflicted but I am glad, at least, that people think he's being kind of mean. Sometimes, I wonder if I"m hearing things completely out of proportion to what he's saying-- and maybe I am, but maybe not.
It';s still confusing to me--
I was hoping to go to a class this week, and I didn't-- because I had another anxiety attack about whether I can ever do anything, or be even acceptably good at anything. (I know it sounds a bit crazy, because there's probably no reason I should be so much more useless than everyone at learning how to paint well-- but I feel as if I am--)
I just feel that he's awfully sick of hearing about my not managing to do things. I told him in my message this morning cancelling the appointment that I hadn't gone-- and he left a message saying that he did think I was making progress. So maybe it won't be too bad to go in and talk about it. I did some reading online about self-acceptance and radical acceptance and that sort of thing-- and maybe over time, it will help.
I think, at the very least, that I have to get more somewhat less derailed by my T's judgments about me. I can't let myself be so hurt by his disapprovall, get upset and start to feel so overwhelmed and confused. I'm hoping that maybe that will help with the class-- although perhaps that's wishful thinking. Right now I don't know what, if anything will--radical acceptance is great as a concept, but so far, it hasn't given me the strength to get to the class.
I'm sorry I haven' t written back to individuals. I really appreciate what everyone wrote. The last couple of days have been kind of turmoil and it's hard to know what I think about my T so far, except that he is being unkind-- and I have to find a way of handling it better. I just hope there is a way without a confrontation, because those don't seem useful so far. Maybe the knowledge itself will help me a little.
Nadezda
This is the end of the thread.
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