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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 19:33:39
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger » special_k, posted by Dinah on March 28, 2006, at 11:10:05
> How about his son?
> How would he feel if his son or daughter was a porn star? I'm not sure that's a gender issue at all.Oh. Well typically if a female bares all for the camera / sleeps with a lot of people then she is considered a 'slut' or a 'whore' which is a derogatory way of looking at her and the situation...
Typically if a male bares all for the camera / sleeps with a lot of people then he is considered a 'stud' or something equally positive.
Societies double standard...
Hence... It tends to have more weight when females are involved.
The notion that other people view the pictures and are more likely to judge the person involved derogatorily.
Whereas if you are a guy and it is your son... You are probably to start making comments about how he gets it from his father etc etc.
I do feel rather ill...
Posted by Dinah on March 28, 2006, at 19:40:47
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger » Dinah, posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 19:33:39
I would have hoped that double standard was long since dead and buried.
But then I've recently decided that I may perhaps have to consider the sad possibility that I'm an idealist.
Posted by Dinah on March 28, 2006, at 19:43:48
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger » Dinah, posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 19:33:39
There's an article in a recent Psychology Today that contained a mention of recent research that showed that men who viewed pornography did not, in fact, have a negative or derogatory view of women. That on fact, on average, they had a slightly more positive view of women.
I don't know the reliability of Psychology Today as a source. But it would be interesting to see the source studies.
Posted by verne on March 28, 2006, at 20:33:06
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger » verne, posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 19:30:31
If you're not trying to evoke shame why play the "proud of your daughter" card? If I'm not "proud", what am I?
You argue about how others view women as "sluts", and men as "studs" - I sure don't. Even my pornstar daughter doesn't.
Earlier you said that part of the problem with pornography is the viewer's intention, what he intended to do with it - j*rk off, or whatever. And that somehow, j*rking off, caused him to objectify, or view, women in a bad light in real life.
Sometimes you argue about what I might be thinking, other times, about what others might think. I just don't think me j*rking off is up to debate.
Verne
Posted by verne on March 28, 2006, at 20:34:40
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger » verne, posted by verne on March 28, 2006, at 20:33:06
Posted by Kath on March 28, 2006, at 20:51:57
In reply to A small victory for womankind?, posted by milly on March 25, 2006, at 16:09:41
Good for you as to getting the magazines away from kid-level & having the store owners put kid-appropriate stuff there instead. I think that's the BIG success.
:-)) Kath
PS - my son had porn videos sitting around. He & his girlfriend apparently liked watching them (she's "bi"). The thing that really got me was that the girls on the covers that I saw did NOT - repeat, NOT look like they were enjoying themselves at all...particularly in certains photos - can't go into detail here obviously, but when they were involved in a certain activity. They did NOT look happy at ALL....some of them looked quite miserable.
Anyway, thanks for getting the message across to the store people.
K
> I think I have won!!!
>
> My local newsagents keeps putting degrading 'mens' magazines on a stand at kiddies eye level just as you go in the door.
> I tried asking nicely -no change
> Next day I scooped them all up and took them to the counter where I meant to place them but unfortunatly they slipped (they are saying I threw them) all over the floor, counter and assistant (whoops!) - no change
> Next day I removed them and hid them behind the chocolates - no change
> Finally I moved them to deep within the chest freezer, either they havent found them yet (or they are frozen solid) but today they have been replaced by childrens comics
> Yeah I won, I won
> Ok slightly hypomanic possibly but it was fun!
> milly
Posted by verne on March 28, 2006, at 21:05:55
In reply to Re: A small victory for womankind? » milly, posted by Kath on March 28, 2006, at 20:51:57
I don't think vandalizing a store is a "big success".
Posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 21:19:03
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger » verne, posted by verne on March 28, 2006, at 20:33:06
> If you're not trying to evoke shame why play the "proud of your daughter" card? If I'm not "proud", what am I?
Concerned. Concerned about her choice in life (assuming it was a choice). That was the other option I mentioned. I just kind of wondered whether it would be something that you would want for her. Or whether you would be concerned.
> You argue about how others view women as "sluts", and men as "studs" - I sure don't. Even my pornstar daughter doesn't.Ah. Maybe I get out to unsavory bars a little too much...
> Earlier you said that part of the problem with pornography is the viewer's intention, what he intended to do with it - j*rk off, or whatever. And that somehow, j*rking off, caused him to objectify, or view, women in a bad light in real life.Objectification. That is my biggest problem yes. If two adults consent to do that to each other then yeah ok none of my business. I kind of like to think that sexual activity can be an act between two subjects rather than two objects but I don't think most people see it that way...
I just wondered whether you would be concerned if your daughter was a porn star... If you might feel concerned about what people were thinking when looking at her picture etc. If you might feel concerned about how she might be treated IRL if people saw her on the street...
I don't know. Maybe not.
> Sometimes you argue about what I might be thinking, other times, about what others might think. I just don't think me j*rking off is up to debate.
Ok.
I guess it just makes me feel sad that sex isn't thought of as an activity between two subjects.
I feel sad about that.
But maybe 'cause I've been faced with a lot of objectification...
Which I find to be mostly oriented towards women (in practice)
Though some women seem to be learning to return the favour...I just feel sad in response is all.
Posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 21:19:38
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger, posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 21:19:03
and for people who have been sexually abused / raped...
i understand how it can be a trigger.
Posted by verne on March 28, 2006, at 21:59:52
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger, posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 21:19:03
I simply can't begin to understand this "objectification" you keep mentioning. I struggle to comprehend how two subjects can get together without an object and a verb in there somewhere. Even rad, crazy, wild, soulful, sex between two adults has an object in there somewhere. Two "subjects" never meet.
And even if I "objectified" my lover like crazy - and j*rked off, while we had sex, is it wrong? In the end, we are all j*rking off.
You have no idea how much I am in love with the "object" of my love. I (subject) love (her) object and She (subject) loves (me).
Verne
Posted by Dinah on March 28, 2006, at 22:14:45
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger, posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 21:19:03
> I guess it just makes me feel sad that sex isn't thought of as an activity between two subjects.
Ouch. Forgive my ignorance. I had honestly thought that masturbation was pretty much universal. I don't think I've ever realized I've met someone who hasn't done it. And even my religious book on parenting emphasized that it was a natural activity and not to shame kids for doing it, but to just tell them that it's an activity to be done in private.
Boy, I am really naive.
But, Verne, I assure you, I think it's terrific that you're so matter of fact about it. Please don't feel ashamed.
Posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 22:20:45
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger, posted by Dinah on March 28, 2006, at 22:14:45
> > I guess it just makes me feel sad that sex isn't thought of as an activity between two subjects.
> Ouch. Forgive my ignorance. I had honestly thought that masturbation was pretty much universal. I don't think I've ever realized I've met someone who hasn't done it. And even my religious book on parenting emphasized that it was a natural activity and not to shame kids for doing it, but to just tell them that it's an activity to be done in private.Aw sh*t. I don't have anything against that.
That wasn't what I meant...
I just think that when you bring pictures / films into it...
That does involve another person.
And that other person isn't viewed as a subject they are viewed as an objectWhat is the difference with fantasy...
?I guess I worry about whether the person really is happy with posing or not...
And I find it hard to see how they could be happy with it.
Some say they are and well...
But others...
And how do you know which is which?
And I guess I just personally have a problem with it because I think a lot of people (typically women yes) are harmed by it.
Posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 22:27:00
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger » special_k, posted by verne on March 28, 2006, at 21:59:52
> I simply can't begin to understand this "objectification" you keep mentioning. I struggle to comprehend how two subjects can get together without an object and a verb in there somewhere. Even rad, crazy, wild, soulful, sex between two adults has an object in there somewhere. Two "subjects" never meet.
An object is something that can be manipulated for your own ends / goals / desires.
It is thought to be wrong to treat a person as an object because you aren't acknowledging / caring about / taking into account the point that they have their own ends / goals / desires that should be respected as yours should be.
So the idea of sex as an activity between two subjects is the idea of an encounter where both are sensitive to the preferences / desires of the other.
As opposed to an encounter where one person isn't even aware of how the other person feels... Or where one person doesn't really care about how the other person feels.
That is the idea.
Re porn...
You don't know anything about the person. What their likes and dislikes are. Whether they have a sense of humour or not. Whether they are a kind person or a person who is likely to stab you in the back. None of that is relevant none of that comes to bear. Or... You are left to project whatever you like onto them. Of course she likes whatever it is you think about doing with her! That is her purpose. Kind of like a living breathing walking blow up doll.
Ugh.
And porn...
Isnt' about love... Is it?
And you don't really know whether the woman is consenting re the pic / movie.Because once she has done it and sold it she can't take it back now...
Ugh.
Posted by verne on March 28, 2006, at 22:38:25
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger, posted by Dinah on March 28, 2006, at 22:14:45
Thanks, Dinah,
I feel like I'm out on a limb. I'm really on a thin branch, getting delerious, thinking about Martin Buber of all things.
You've been so understanding. It hasn't been easy for me to admit I view pornographic material and masturbate. Yet I wasn't about to be "shamed" into hiding it.
The emotional pain in shame and hiding is too great. I'd rather be transparent. Better to wear the letter, bear the stones, and remain true.
Thanks again. I expect to be blocked - maybe I'll be back with Haley's Comet or when Larry Hoover reappears.
You've been great. This place is too much for me.
Verne
Posted by verne on March 28, 2006, at 22:41:59
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger, posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 22:27:00
Special K: Don't EVER post to me again. Ever. NEVER. I mean Ever. (civility guidelines prevent me from exploring this further)
Verne
Posted by Dinah on March 28, 2006, at 22:48:55
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger, posted by verne on March 28, 2006, at 22:38:25
No, no. Don't go get yourself blocked.
And while I'm not minimizing your courage in admitting it openly, after Seinfeld (and before really, which was why Seinfeld was so funny) it's hard for me to see it as a particularly shocking or shameful admission.
You know, I ran with an enormously conservative group of people in high school and college, but these things were not uncommon topics of conversation, even between the girls and the boys.
I'll even admit to going to an adult bookstore for a bachelorette party that had both girls and boys included. And they had those movies you put a quarter in and you'd see a few minutes. Now *that* was gross. Not hte movies, I didn't even notice the movie, but the surroundings.
And Verne, I'm not exactly a wild child. I was a virgin upon my marriage. I've only been intimate with one man. In fact, except for a peck here and there, I've only kissed one man.
And I still think you've got no reason to be ashamed.
Deep breaths.
Posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 23:19:09
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger » verne, posted by Dinah on March 28, 2006, at 22:48:55
Really.
I didn't mean for anyone to feel hurt or accused or ashamed or anything like that.
Some things can be hard to admit to... I have lots of things like that. Things I'd never ever ever talk to anyone about IRL because I would feel such shame... And I have talked about a lot of stuff like that on the boards over the time I have been here. A lot of it... And typically other peoples responses to my disclosures have been helpful. Validating. I feel less alone with what I have shared. And I feel less ashamed with what I have shared. But othertimes... Well sometimes things don't go that way. I think it is because... Sometimes peoples sensitivities / issues clash.
With respect to this issue... I have talked about my feelings on it a couple of times now. Over on relationships. And one time things did go pretty badly and I think that someone I was talking to felt quite hurt by what I said. I didn't mean to hurt... I didn't (and this time around too) I didn't phrase things very well...
:-(
And I'm sorry for that.
I guess it is about clash of the issues.
For people who have been abused and treated like an object... I think it is fair to say that those are the people who typically have very strong feelings about pornography being (potentially) harmful.
For people who have been feeling ashamed about things... I think it is fair to say that those are the people who typically have very strong feelings about pornography being perfectly fine and normal or whatever.
And sometimes people need the former feeling validated...
And sometimes people need the latter feeling validated...I don't know.
I get to thinking about eating meat again...
Sigh.
I'm sorry for hurts... Never meant to hurt... But I was a little concerned about Milly.
But I didn't mean to do that at the expense of other peoples feelings.
I'm sorry.
I don't think Verne said anything wrong...
I'm sorry.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 28, 2006, at 23:46:53
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger » verne, posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 11:04:06
> really do you care when you are viewing those images?
Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to jump to conclusions about others or to post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down, could you please rephrase that?
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
One possibility is to ask another poster to be your "civility buddy" and preview posts before you submit them.
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by gabbi~1 on March 28, 2006, at 23:54:26
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger » Dinah, posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 22:20:45
I'm surprised at the idea of sex without love being somehow.. wrong, or less worthy.
The idea of two people being together being the most acceptable form of "coupling" is more of an artificial invention than depictions of people having sex in various different ways.
Women have always been sexual creatures, that's part of the reason the more recent religions put them in generally virginal or asexual positions.
It was the fear of their sexuality.
that restraint of sexuality, the ideals put on it even with different wording, and different rationale, no different than the religious right.I find it contradictory to dislike the idea of men "J*acking off" to a picture, and then ask a man if it's "okay" or if he would be "proud" if his daughter, or sister was doing it.
Where's the woman in this? It seems the man's opinion is the important one.. the same men who are doing the "óbjectifying"Men will always "J*ck" off thinking about attractive women, it's existed since the Sears Catalogue had corset ads, and well obviously long before that. "Pornography" existed on cave walls.
It's healthy, it's normal, and hey, it's enjoyable.Now You've said "You don't know what her goals are, her ideals, her personality"
Well, neither do you, and you don't know whether or not she's completely satisfied with what she's doing.I resent someone else deciding what sex should be, what the higher form is.
Yes, the sex industry is fraught with abuse, and depersonalization.
So is Ballet, so are sports. It's not about the sex, it's about those with power using people to get ahead.
Making it about female/male sexuality, is just another form of repression.I've been through the cycle of abuse. I don't find pornography a trigger any more than I find any sex a trigger. Depictions of violence and rape are a different thing.
It's sex.
It's not always about roses and champagne, nor do I think it should be.
And yes some women *do* like that "sort of thing"
Posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 23:55:57
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » special_k, posted by Dr. Bob on March 28, 2006, at 23:46:53
I think I would rather just take it back than rephrase...
I guess regarding a rephrase...
> > really do you care when you are viewing those images?
> Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to jump to conclusions about others or to post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down, could you please rephrase that?Er... I guess my thought was that when people view then they don't really think about whether the people they are viewing are really okay with having their image recorded and used for those purposes. I guess my thought was that people don't think about it because if you really did get to thinking about maybe the person really isn't happy with it that maybe they had been coerced or needed to raise money for a sick kid and / or regretted it in hindsight... Well i guess i think that if those thoughts really occured to people... then they wouldn't view porn. but maybe they do think about those things (as real possibilities rather than just as thoughts i guess)... they do consider that... and they just don't care. i don't know. i dont' know what to say.
i'm sorry.
i didnt' mean to hurt anyone. but yeah that is what i think... that people don't really consider the possible harm. otherwise...i don't know.
maybe people dont' think it is a real possibility that the person in the pic is harmed by the knowledge that other people are viewing them in that way...
i don't know what to say...
Posted by spriggy on March 29, 2006, at 0:17:37
In reply to Re: please rephrase that, posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 23:55:57
Mind you, I'm a Christian and totally/completely/utterly opposed to porn in any and every fashion and sense of the word...
But, I would just like to say that my husband (who is a pastor and Christian counselor) has counseled more men where porn has literally destroyed their lives' and marriages'.
It has hindered their relationship with God, their wives', their children, and eventually even themselves.
I think it is an epidemic in our culture (sadly, even in the church) and it is destroying our marriages, our children, and can lead to all sorts of other sin's.
I heard Ted Bundy share his story of how he became a murderer of women... guess how it began? It began with an interest in porn that after years could no longer feed his ever growing need and addiction for "more".
It's dangerous, and it destroys.
Posted by gabbi~1 on March 29, 2006, at 0:28:44
In reply to the BIG *HUGE* deal with PORN.., posted by spriggy on March 29, 2006, at 0:17:37
I wonder how many lives have been literally destroyed in the name of God.
The means is not the cause.
Posted by verne on March 29, 2006, at 1:13:56
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger » special_k, posted by gabbi~1 on March 28, 2006, at 23:54:26
I love you.
You preach to me and this here choir I keep in the closet. Yes, even the choir loves you.
i just want to quack or something.
verne
Posted by verne on March 29, 2006, at 1:22:53
In reply to Re: the BIG *HUGE* deal with PORN.. » spriggy, posted by gabbi~1 on March 29, 2006, at 0:28:44
Ted Bundy - 29
Crusaders - 1,000,000,000
I'm a christian, baptized in the Spirit. At the very bottom of my list of things that need changing is worring about how dressed somebody is!
love always,
verne
Posted by verne on March 29, 2006, at 2:10:54
In reply to the BIG *HUGE* deal with PORN.., posted by spriggy on March 29, 2006, at 0:17:37
How many "spirit-filled" pastors and pastor wives go beserk and go on a murder spree?
What fruit of the Spirit is that?
verne - christian, touched by God, reborn in the Spirit, growing.
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