![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by paula on January 27, 2002, at 23:02:56
Short version: Emotionally, I'm not a very open person. One of the things I'm working on in therapy is opening up to people more. Asking for help, input when I need it. Well, I've been spiraling a bit lately and actually called a few people (friends and advisor/profs) tonight. On the one hand, I'm proud of myself for having done so. On the other, I'm having the usual post-interaction regret, self-recrimination, and the incessant running back of the "tapes" of these conversations in my mind. For most of my life the easiest way out of this situation has been to just simply browbeat myself and be done with it. Write it all off to my own idiocy, go to bed and forget about it. It's so much harder to just "live with" the fact that I reached out to some people, that I need help on occasion, that everyone does on occasion, etc. etc.
Sound familiar to anyone?
--p (...hoping to silence the "tape" long enough to get my work done....)
Posted by finelinebob on January 28, 2002, at 1:21:11
In reply to self-hate as the easy way out., posted by paula on January 27, 2002, at 23:02:56
You know, some of the discussions around here lately have pointed out perhaps some naivete, definitely a lot of luck, on my part ... mostly in realizing how much I trust my T, how I stumbled across one that I truly could trust, and how the situation could be sooooo different than it is.
It still took me over a year to realize that I needed her help. One day, I just had to say it out loud -- to literally ask her for her help. That was one of the most difficult things I have ever done in my life.
Still, I'm not quite sure that self-hate is the "easy way out". Such well-established habits may be hard to break, but it doesn't mean that doing them is easy. Some of the ways I punish myself involve a lot more effort than turning to my T or a friend for help, or even just a conversation.
Hating myself is seemingly effortless, as opposed to it being easy, because I'm so good at it and I've been doing it for so long. Pro athletes make playing their sports look easy ... why would that be any different for us? I mean, can you imagine a so-called "normal" person chastising himself or herself? Amateurs! Posers! Duffers! Gimme a break!
Personally, I think I qualify for all-star status: I'm convinced that there is no one who knows how to punish me "correctly" other than myself. As a result, no one's criticisms can touch me -- my rules for living my life are different from how I expect everyone else to live their lives, and those rules are a helluva lot tougher than anything a reasonable person would expect. So if there is anyone more amateur IMO than the posers mentioned above it would be someone trying to hurt me. I can always easily one-up them.
I can't say that I'm all that found of behaviorism as a theory for explaining complex human behaviors, but as a professor of mine told me once, "you may not agree with the theory, but you can't argue against its results." Rewards and punishments work. Once burned, twice shy. On the other hand, look at how much energy humans put into activities we find rewarding. The more we like it, the harder we work at getting that feeling back again.
So, even harder than literally asking my T for help was realizing that I hurt myself, I punish myself, I hate myself ultimately because I enjoy it more, at some level, than it hurts. I mean, think about it for a second: "No one can punish me correctly other than myself." What's a normal response to that? How sad? sick? pitiful?
How about: How arrogant? conceited? narcissistic? It leads me to set myself up for failure time and time again. The beauty is I can work myself up to the point where I don't even need to try and fail -- I know I'll fail before I start, so I skip the preliminaries and go straight to the verbal abuse. Talk about getting your wires crossed....
So, as for me, I know I put waaaaaaay too much effort and energy into self-hate than I'd need to love myself without hate as a mechanism. Yes, breaking such ingrained habits is very hard work. I just don't understand well enough how my wires got crossed and why I prefer them that way to consider the effort to break the habit worth my attention.
my 2cents
flb
Posted by mist on January 28, 2002, at 12:02:52
In reply to self-hate as the easy way out., posted by paula on January 27, 2002, at 23:02:56
paula,
This is probably not what you wanted to hear but I've usually regretted reaching out to people I've known in real life when I've needed help as a result of being depressed—especially for emotional support—because their responses have not been understanding or helpful. In some cases they've been cold, critical and judgmental—just the opposite of what I needed.
When I have started going over in my head interactions in which I was more vulnerable, and feeling something was wrong, it's usually because it was. Because I didn't get the result I needed and had hoped for.
For the most part, I think of not reaching out for support or understanding as a smart, healthy, self-preservation measure.
I don't mean that I think, "no one is trustworthy," just by virtue of their being a human being. I mean that in general the society—schools, the media, churches, social institutions, etc.—don't teach supportive, healthy ways of relating to others (especially to depressed or other vulnerable people). The overriding values are competition, toughness, survival of the fittest, self-sufficiency, do or die, get with the program (even if you can't get out of bed), etc. I think it's therefore best to be somewhat on guard with most people, including friends and family members. That's why support groups and a board like this which provide a small oasis of safety are important.
These are just some thoughts which came to mind when I read your post. I don't know if they are useful to you or relevant to your experience. -mist
> Short version: Emotionally, I'm not a very open person. One of the things I'm working on in therapy is opening up to people more. Asking for help, input when I need it. Well, I've been spiraling a bit lately and actually called a few people (friends and advisor/profs) tonight. On the one hand, I'm proud of myself for having done so. On the other, I'm having the usual post-interaction regret, self-recrimination, and the incessant running back of the "tapes" of these conversations in my mind. For most of my life the easiest way out of this situation has been to just simply browbeat myself and be done with it. Write it all off to my own idiocy, go to bed and forget about it. It's so much harder to just "live with" the fact that I reached out to some people, that I need help on occasion, that everyone does on occasion, etc. etc.
>
> Sound familiar to anyone?
>
> --p (...hoping to silence the "tape" long enough to get my work done....)
Posted by Shar on January 28, 2002, at 12:44:55
In reply to Re: self-hate as the easy way out., posted by finelinebob on January 28, 2002, at 1:21:11
"...realizing that I hurt myself, I punish myself, I hate myself ultimately because I enjoy it more, at some level, than it hurts."
FLB--
I agree with much of what you said, and you are most articulate.However, for me, I would modify the "enjoy" part of your above statement to be something like "it feels safer than it hurts" or similar idea.
Obviously, self-hate or being the first to criticize oneself (a forte of my own) is a safety mechanism that keeps the pain away from our tender selves. We were probably pretty beat up (internally, externally) in order to develop that response in the first place.
It's the old "I'll hate me first, before anyone else can, so it won't be hurtful or be a surprise when everyone finds I'm a good target for their disdain." Well, probably in fewer words, but you get the idea.
I'm not sure enjoyment at any level enters into it; more like the relief at not feeling that intense destructive pain. IMHO.
And, I agree, self-hate is not easy...not for the squeamish.
Shar
Posted by Shar on January 28, 2002, at 12:47:31
In reply to Re: self-hate as the easy way out., posted by mist on January 28, 2002, at 12:02:52
Posted by mist on January 28, 2002, at 13:02:50
In reply to Very true and well-said to boot. (nm) » mist, posted by Shar on January 28, 2002, at 12:47:31
Posted by Fi on January 28, 2002, at 16:46:15
In reply to self-hate as the easy way out., posted by paula on January 27, 2002, at 23:02:56
You've just done something very healthy and very brave, in reaching out. It is a risk, as others have said, but I've found that I cant predict the results- some people I didnt expect to be supportive were, and vice versa. Once you've tried them out, you know who to try another time.
Self-hate is very hard to switch off, but isnt usually an accurate assessment, and its exhausting. If you can 'turn the volume down', or allow yourself an element of doubt that the self-hate beliefs are valid, then that would be great.
But *congratulations* again on giving it a try.
And yes, I'm pretty hopeless seeking help too. Do it a bit but aware of (misguided) relief if I manage to get thru anything really upsetting on my own. Tho I'm sure I would get thru it faster and easier if I swallowed my pride (or whatever) and phoned a friend.
Fi
Posted by Fi on January 28, 2002, at 17:32:11
In reply to self-hate as the easy way out., posted by paula on January 27, 2002, at 23:02:56
Although this Board is anonymous, I think you should also credit yourself with sharing a bit here. I know it has its own kind of risks- replies are usually supportive/insightful, but you can also get no reply or someone sounding off at you, or sharing a negative experience.
I know my heart sinks a bit sometimes after I have sent a message revealing anything about myself- I feel really exposed. Tho relieved after I get a helpful reply, which makes it worthwhile.
Replies can be upsetting, but I'm *not* saying that people should be positive or agree all the time- its realistic that this isnt the case.So give yourself credit for 2 kinds of sharing (real and virtual)!
Fi
Posted by paula on January 28, 2002, at 20:08:35
In reply to Re: self-hate as the easy way out., posted by finelinebob on January 28, 2002, at 1:21:11
One of the reasons I figured out that I was depressed was that the "equation" or the "economy" of my self-flagellation was no longer balanced. There was a time when I could browbeat myself into anything. Suddenly that stopped working (and so did I...fell way behind in classes). Asking for help--especially in the beginning--was the hardest thing in the world for me too. And I continue to have enormous trouble doing so, in part 'cause I just don't get the process. If I don't know what's wrong then how can I call up someone, impinge on their time, and simply share the confusion. Well, I've gotten much better about reaching out over the last year, but it's still very tempting and reassuring to fall back into the intense self-criticism. You're right, it's a definite "talent"--I've been honing it for years, so why would I expect to develop a new way of coping overnight?
Thanks for your 2 cents....
--p
> You know, some of the discussions around here lately have pointed out perhaps some naivete, definitely a lot of luck, on my part ... mostly in realizing how much I trust my T, how I stumbled across one that I truly could trust, and how the situation could be sooooo different than it is.
>
> It still took me over a year to realize that I needed her help. One day, I just had to say it out loud -- to literally ask her for her help. That was one of the most difficult things I have ever done in my life.
>
> Still, I'm not quite sure that self-hate is the "easy way out". Such well-established habits may be hard to break, but it doesn't mean that doing them is easy. Some of the ways I punish myself involve a lot more effort than turning to my T or a friend for help, or even just a conversation.
>
> Hating myself is seemingly effortless, as opposed to it being easy, because I'm so good at it and I've been doing it for so long. Pro athletes make playing their sports look easy ... why would that be any different for us? I mean, can you imagine a so-called "normal" person chastising himself or herself? Amateurs! Posers! Duffers! Gimme a break!
>
> Personally, I think I qualify for all-star status: I'm convinced that there is no one who knows how to punish me "correctly" other than myself. As a result, no one's criticisms can touch me -- my rules for living my life are different from how I expect everyone else to live their lives, and those rules are a helluva lot tougher than anything a reasonable person would expect. So if there is anyone more amateur IMO than the posers mentioned above it would be someone trying to hurt me. I can always easily one-up them.
>
> I can't say that I'm all that found of behaviorism as a theory for explaining complex human behaviors, but as a professor of mine told me once, "you may not agree with the theory, but you can't argue against its results." Rewards and punishments work. Once burned, twice shy. On the other hand, look at how much energy humans put into activities we find rewarding. The more we like it, the harder we work at getting that feeling back again.
>
> So, even harder than literally asking my T for help was realizing that I hurt myself, I punish myself, I hate myself ultimately because I enjoy it more, at some level, than it hurts. I mean, think about it for a second: "No one can punish me correctly other than myself." What's a normal response to that? How sad? sick? pitiful?
>
> How about: How arrogant? conceited? narcissistic? It leads me to set myself up for failure time and time again. The beauty is I can work myself up to the point where I don't even need to try and fail -- I know I'll fail before I start, so I skip the preliminaries and go straight to the verbal abuse. Talk about getting your wires crossed....
>
> So, as for me, I know I put waaaaaaay too much effort and energy into self-hate than I'd need to love myself without hate as a mechanism. Yes, breaking such ingrained habits is very hard work. I just don't understand well enough how my wires got crossed and why I prefer them that way to consider the effort to break the habit worth my attention.
>
> my 2cents
> flb
Posted by paula on January 28, 2002, at 20:15:53
In reply to Re: self-hate as the easy way out., posted by mist on January 28, 2002, at 12:02:52
Wow, mist, I'm so sorry to hear that you've found so little support and understanding out there. That's gotta make it 100 times tougher. I'm incredibly lucky that I'm surrounded by very supportive and patient people. It helps that several of them (as it happens--didn't know this before) have had, or do have, depression as well. Maybe that's why they're so non-judgemental. It's taken me a year and a half to take them up on their offers of support, as in calling them out of the blue and saying "I need a pep talk." Stoicism and self-isolation (and a general attempt to be completely non-emotional) are at the root of my depression, so reaching out is (unfortunately!) the definite path for me to find my way out of the woods. So far I have not been burned by anyone, and I pray God that I won't be. That would just kill me. I guess, I figure that I've been incredibly cautious with these folks and have slowly racheted up my sharing...so I think I'm safe with them. I appreciate your caution--I totally understand!
Thanks for your thoughts,
--p> paula,
>
> This is probably not what you wanted to hear but I've usually regretted reaching out to people I've known in real life when I've needed help as a result of being depressed—especially for emotional support—because their responses have not been understanding or helpful. In some cases they've been cold, critical and judgmental—just the opposite of what I needed.
>
> When I have started going over in my head interactions in which I was more vulnerable, and feeling something was wrong, it's usually because it was. Because I didn't get the result I needed and had hoped for.
>
> For the most part, I think of not reaching out for support or understanding as a smart, healthy, self-preservation measure.
>
> I don't mean that I think, "no one is trustworthy," just by virtue of their being a human being. I mean that in general the society—schools, the media, churches, social institutions, etc.—don't teach supportive, healthy ways of relating to others (especially to depressed or other vulnerable people). The overriding values are competition, toughness, survival of the fittest, self-sufficiency, do or die, get with the program (even if you can't get out of bed), etc. I think it's therefore best to be somewhat on guard with most people, including friends and family members. That's why support groups and a board like this which provide a small oasis of safety are important.
>
> These are just some thoughts which came to mind when I read your post. I don't know if they are useful to you or relevant to your experience. -mist
>
>
Posted by paula on January 28, 2002, at 20:24:06
In reply to Re: self-hate as the easy way out. » paula, posted by Fi on January 28, 2002, at 16:46:15
Thanks, Fi, I really needed to hear that. You're right about not being able to predict results. It's taken me the entire last year and a half to trust most of the people I'm surrounded by--despite the fact that they've shown themselves to be trustworthy over and over. I'm a slow learner. :)
"Turn the volume down" is a great metaphor. I've been aware that my "gauges" are off for quite some time now...but it's awfully hard to fly blind AND without instruments! (I'm in uncharted, mixed-metaphor territory--don't know a thing 'bout aviation.) I've been thrilled again and again by the fantastic reponse I've gotten when I reach out. I'm teetering on the edge, actually, 'cause I'm about to the point where I totally let down my guard with a lot of people. It's scary but, ultimately, rewarding.
Thanks for the congrats! (And I definitely put posting in the phonecall/reaching-out category, too. I'm glad to have gotten such thoughtful responses!)
--p
> You've just done something very healthy and very brave, in reaching out. It is a risk, as others have said, but I've found that I cant predict the results- some people I didnt expect to be supportive were, and vice versa. Once you've tried them out, you know who to try another time.
>
> Self-hate is very hard to switch off, but isnt usually an accurate assessment, and its exhausting. If you can 'turn the volume down', or allow yourself an element of doubt that the self-hate beliefs are valid, then that would be great.
>
> But *congratulations* again on giving it a try.
>
> And yes, I'm pretty hopeless seeking help too. Do it a bit but aware of (misguided) relief if I manage to get thru anything really upsetting on my own. Tho I'm sure I would get thru it faster and easier if I swallowed my pride (or whatever) and phoned a friend.
>
> Fi
Posted by paula on January 28, 2002, at 20:29:20
In reply to Re: self-hate as the easy way out., posted by Shar on January 28, 2002, at 12:44:55
Shar, you're so right about it feeling safe. At least MY hate is a known commodity. And I've long known that I try to...well, succeed in...beating others to the punch. And it's only recently that it's occurred to me that this isn't for the squeamish, as you say. I'm so used to living like this that it's been hard to imagine anything else. I'm glad to have gotten some perspective this last year.
--p
> "...realizing that I hurt myself, I punish myself, I hate myself ultimately because I enjoy it more, at some level, than it hurts."
>
> FLB--
> I agree with much of what you said, and you are most articulate.
>
> However, for me, I would modify the "enjoy" part of your above statement to be something like "it feels safer than it hurts" or similar idea.
>
> Obviously, self-hate or being the first to criticize oneself (a forte of my own) is a safety mechanism that keeps the pain away from our tender selves. We were probably pretty beat up (internally, externally) in order to develop that response in the first place.
>
> It's the old "I'll hate me first, before anyone else can, so it won't be hurtful or be a surprise when everyone finds I'm a good target for their disdain." Well, probably in fewer words, but you get the idea.
>
> I'm not sure enjoyment at any level enters into it; more like the relief at not feeling that intense destructive pain. IMHO.
>
> And, I agree, self-hate is not easy...not for the squeamish.
>
> Shar
Posted by mist on January 28, 2002, at 20:55:12
In reply to Re: self-hate as the easy way out. » mist, posted by paula on January 28, 2002, at 20:15:53
Paula, you are sooooooo lucky to have the type of people you describe in your life. From what I've seen and experienced (as you can tell from my earlier post), it's rare. I wish I could say something helpful that's more to the point of what you're struggling with but it sounds like an issue I'm not familiar with on a firsthand basis. (Although maybe it would be if I could get the one about actually finding supportive people out of the way.) Anyway, good luck with the challenge you're facing--I admire your courage and effort in dealing with it. -mist
> Wow, mist, I'm so sorry to hear that you've found so little support and understanding out there. That's gotta make it 100 times tougher. I'm incredibly lucky that I'm surrounded by very supportive and patient people. It helps that several of them (as it happens--didn't know this before) have had, or do have, depression as well. Maybe that's why they're so non-judgemental. It's taken me a year and a half to take them up on their offers of support, as in calling them out of the blue and saying "I need a pep talk." Stoicism and self-isolation (and a general attempt to be completely non-emotional) are at the root of my depression, so reaching out is (unfortunately!) the definite path for me to find my way out of the woods. So far I have not been burned by anyone, and I pray God that I won't be. That would just kill me. I guess, I figure that I've been incredibly cautious with these folks and have slowly racheted up my sharing...so I think I'm safe with them. I appreciate your caution--I totally understand!
>
> Thanks for your thoughts,
> --p
>
> > paula,
> >
> > This is probably not what you wanted to hear but I've usually regretted reaching out to people I've known in real life when I've needed help as a result of being depressed—especially for emotional support—because their responses have not been understanding or helpful. In some cases they've been cold, critical and judgmental—just the opposite of what I needed.
> >
> > When I have started going over in my head interactions in which I was more vulnerable, and feeling something was wrong, it's usually because it was. Because I didn't get the result I needed and had hoped for.
> >
> > For the most part, I think of not reaching out for support or understanding as a smart, healthy, self-preservation measure.
> >
> > I don't mean that I think, "no one is trustworthy," just by virtue of their being a human being. I mean that in general the society—schools, the media, churches, social institutions, etc.—don't teach supportive, healthy ways of relating to others (especially to depressed or other vulnerable people). The overriding values are competition, toughness, survival of the fittest, self-sufficiency, do or die, get with the program (even if you can't get out of bed), etc. I think it's therefore best to be somewhat on guard with most people, including friends and family members. That's why support groups and a board like this which provide a small oasis of safety are important.
> >
> > These are just some thoughts which came to mind when I read your post. I don't know if they are useful to you or relevant to your experience. -mist
> >
> >
Posted by Krazy Kat on January 29, 2002, at 11:17:10
In reply to self-hate as the easy way out., posted by paula on January 27, 2002, at 23:02:56
This is So familiar. Then, when I go into a manic-type episode, I decide everyone is against me and that they're using the info I told them to get back at me (for what, I don't know).
Last summer I opened up to a lot of people re: my manic depressiveness. This included my parents. My parents, parochial and authoritative, took it the best! Some of my so-called open friends ran from me.
Are you married or in a committed relationship? I have found that it is worse for a marriage if you're not open with each other - it all comes out eventually.
- KK
Posted by paula on January 29, 2002, at 15:00:17
In reply to Re: self-hate as the easy way out. » paula, posted by Krazy Kat on January 29, 2002, at 11:17:10
Actually, I think "All Of This" has precluded my having a relationship. Gosh, I'm just coming to grips with this, too. (As in, on Sunday I finally spoke with my best friend about the erstwhile soulmate from college who's a mutual friend. Talked to the therp about it today. Yikes.)
I always envisioned manic episodes being exactly the opposite; I thought it was all outgoing and energetic. Never thought of paranoia to go along with.
Funny about your folks. Isn't the world a funny place??
--p
> This is So familiar. Then, when I go into a manic-type episode, I decide everyone is against me and that they're using the info I told them to get back at me (for what, I don't know).
>
> Last summer I opened up to a lot of people re: my manic depressiveness. This included my parents. My parents, parochial and authoritative, took it the best! Some of my so-called open friends ran from me.
>
> Are you married or in a committed relationship? I have found that it is worse for a marriage if you're not open with each other - it all comes out eventually.
>
> - KK
Posted by Krazy Kat on February 1, 2002, at 18:49:04
In reply to Re: self-hate as the easy way out. » Krazy Kat, posted by paula on January 29, 2002, at 15:00:17
paula:
thanks for the note! I don't even know anymore what is, or isn't, mania. According to the "Book", you can have psychotic features during an episode. Do mine "count"? I don't know.
What has come from your talks about the soulmate?
- KK
Posted by paula on February 2, 2002, at 12:44:52
In reply to Re: self-hate as the easy way out. » paula, posted by Krazy Kat on February 1, 2002, at 18:49:04
Actually, Krazy Kat, I feel incredibly liberated by having talked about it. I'll avoid employing (too much) psycho-babble here. I think I just hadn't realized how hard the whole episode was for me. What's odd is that the fallout from the college "soulmate" problem coincided with a few years of soulsearching on my part. It was a time in which--I thought--I was really pulling myself up by the bootstraps, getting over my perfectionism, becoming more sociable and comfortable with myself. All of that is true, but I guess I thought I could do all of that independent of any emotional life. I have a long history of thinking (feeling, actually) unworthy of love. THis episode was the last straw--the nail in the coffin--of my ability to trust people. So, I've felt very liberated and validated (PB alert!) by finding out that I wasn't hallucinating the intimacy I had with this best-best-friend. (It was a completely platonic but very intense relationship. In the short, pathetic history of my emotional life, it therefore looms large.) I'm a little astonished at my feelings this week. I thought it was a big deal, but didn't think it was THAT big a deal. So I guess I'm mildly reeling...in a very good way. I'm seeing some light at the end of my long emotionally-stunted tunnel. (OK, mixed metaphor, but you get the idea.)
Thanks for asking, and sorry for dragging on.
paula
> paula:
>
> thanks for the note! I don't even know anymore what is, or isn't, mania. According to the "Book", you can have psychotic features during an episode. Do mine "count"? I don't know.
>
> What has come from your talks about the soulmate?
>
> - KK
This is the end of the thread.
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