![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 40. Go back in thread:
Posted by Mair on January 26, 2002, at 17:23:03
In reply to Re: Therapist wants Suicide Agreement (not to), posted by OldSchool on January 26, 2002, at 12:21:55
Old School - I don't know what in Shar's post pushed your button, but while you may be expressing a strongly held opinion, it's not responsive and hardly supportive of Shar's predicament. Your refer to ineffectual "cheesy" therapy, with total disregard for the fact that Shar's post refers to her 10 year relationship with her therapist. It doesn't sound to me that this is a person that Shar just wants to tell to "get lost." It seems pretty obvious that Shar struggles with suicidal ideation, and is conflicted about making this agreement not because she's not suicidal, but precisely because she sometimes is. For her to simply say "I'm not suicidal so forget about it," hardly seems productive. I'm sure Shar would be overjoyed if meds alone did the trick, but that's obviously not the case for her, and I think it insensitive that you would suggest that it is, or at this stage and without knowing a helluva lot more about her, that it could be.
Mair
Posted by christophrejmc on January 26, 2002, at 18:19:17
In reply to Re: Therapist wants Suicide Agreement (not to), posted by mist on January 26, 2002, at 15:13:57
It sounds like your therapist doesn't know what it's like to be suicidal. She makes it seem like deciding not to commit suicide is analogous to deciding not to bite your nails or something. It seems like this will lead to you repressing suicidal thoughts just to please your therapist. I don't think the decision to take one's life is one made lightly; a contract may prevent you from harming yourself, but it does nothing to quell the feelings that lead to such an act. (This may not apply to your situation, but I thought I would say it anyway in the case that it might.)
-Christophre
Posted by OldSchool on January 26, 2002, at 20:03:35
In reply to You've Got to be Kidding » OldSchool, posted by Mair on January 26, 2002, at 17:23:03
> Old School - I don't know what in Shar's post pushed your button, but while you may be expressing a strongly held opinion, it's not responsive and hardly supportive of Shar's predicament. Your refer to ineffectual "cheesy" therapy, with total disregard for the fact that Shar's post refers to her 10 year relationship with her therapist. It doesn't sound to me that this is a person that Shar just wants to tell to "get lost." It seems pretty obvious that Shar struggles with suicidal ideation, and is conflicted about making this agreement not because she's not suicidal, but precisely because she sometimes is. For her to simply say "I'm not suicidal so forget about it," hardly seems productive. I'm sure Shar would be overjoyed if meds alone did the trick, but that's obviously not the case for her, and I think it insensitive that you would suggest that it is, or at this stage and without knowing a helluva lot more about her, that it could be.
>
> MairWhen I used the term "cheesy" I didnt mean it in a derogatory way towards Shar. I thought that was pretty clear the way I used the word "cheesy." I meant that it is a childish and "cheesy" way for her therapist to deal with Shar. Its insulting to Shar. Its treating her like a kid...its the idiot treatment. Nobody likes the idiot treatment. Its like a gimmick or something. "Oh I want you to sign a suicide agreement, so you wont committ suicide on me."
Thats not the way I operate and I was sharing the way I felt about it with Shar. I want to be treated like an adult, like treated like a little kid.
Any therapist who asked me to do that Id tell them to get lost. Im not signing nothing. I know whether Im going to committ suicide or not and the answer no matter how depressed or suicidal feeling I become will always be no. Ive been almost to catatonia before...streetbum, rock bottom depressed where I lost 30 lbs without trying and could barely move and couldnt sleep for days without taking drugs to knock me out. And I never committed suicide and never attempted suicide. And never will either.
And you know why I wont? Because I dont view my depression as a "psychological" problem or a personal weakness of character. Im also not ashamed of it. I view it as a medical illness just like diabetes or high blood pressure. I am educated enough to realize that these suicidal feelings I have sometimes when I get really depressed are occuring just because I have something wrong with me...a medical problem. A malfunctioning brain and central nervous system. I dont blame myself for it, even though the depression might be making me feel EXTREMELY guilty, like everything is my fault. Whenever I get like that, its always in the back of my mind "this is your severe depression acting up."
I cant blame myself that my brain burned out and I developed major depression. I cant blame myself that I developed a serious medical problem that requires drug treatment. If I did blame myself for it (like so many people do) I probably really would give into those suicidal feelings and urges I get from time to time, when depression becomes severe.
Thats the way I see it. And I dont go for these hokey pokey, cheesy talk therapy mindgames.
I also dont like therapists who try to control their patients in anyway, shape or form. I am a free person and I dont need to sign some "agreement."
Old School
Posted by Ritch on January 26, 2002, at 22:00:52
In reply to Therapist wants Suicide Agreement (not to), posted by Shar on January 25, 2002, at 22:12:48
> My therapist is beginning a group in Feb. that I want to be in, and wants me to agree to a one year commitment to the group, and that I won't commit suicide during that year.
>
> I've been seeing her for 10 years or so; this isn't a new therapeutic relationship, but it is the first time she's asked this of me before I joined group therapy.
>
> I understand her reasoning (she explained) but I am having a hard time giving up the option of suicide. I have always had a lot of ideation, but do not make suicidal gestures. However, if I commit to NOT do it for a year, I'm very big on honoring my commitments and won't do it.
>
> Aside from the "you shouldn't kill yourself" stance, does anyone have experience with this in therapy, or comments?
>
> Thanks,
> SharShar,
This may sound strange-but *not* wanting to give up the *option* of suicide sounds a lot like people trying to quit smoking cigarettes who find that ultimate absolute *never* command so authoritarian and unrealistic. I used to smoke 3 packs of smokes a day for several years and that was the *one* thing that bugged me so much when I tried to quit-that idea that I could *never* smoke a cigarette again. Obviously, the *option* to once again smoke a cigarette or kill one's self never disappears. It is like seeing it as a "mirage" of free will-when the free will NOT to do something self-destructive was always there.
Could you tell us your therapist's reasoning? Just curious.Mitch
Posted by finelinebob on January 27, 2002, at 0:32:52
In reply to Re: Therapist wants Suicide Agreement (not to) » Shar, posted by Ritch on January 26, 2002, at 22:00:52
Like (from what it seems) everyone else who has posted on this thread, I don't have any experience with this personally ... though I have heard of others using such contracts.
Sure, some ink on a sheet of paper may seem trivial, inconsequential, demeaning, etc. But from what I know of these contracts, what's written on the paper is not the point.
You can't work with a group unless you are willing to risk and willing to trust. Sure, both (especially trust) take time to develop. But agreeing to such a contract is a first step -- it says that you won't take matters into your own hands. I imagine given the contract's connection with the group, it also means putting your faith in the group's ability to help you work through a crisis that serious.
Whatever is written on the paper, a contract is a trading of "goods" and placing faith in another to deliver on those goods. And, if you're honest, delivering on your end as well.
Even if you can't accept this act in terms of the symbolism of a such a contract, then take it quite literally as one more reason not to die. How many of you have, in hitting what feels like the "bottom" have had one thought stand in the way of doing yourself in? Maybe it was the thought of the grief you'd cause a parent, a friend? Guilt over leaving a pet behind? That last blockade can get much thinner that either of those ... sometimes, just one shred of a reason not to die is all that's needed. If you make such a pact with someone you trust or care about or whatever and you make it in good faith, then perhaps it is the act of agreeing to such a bond rather than the terms of the bond itself that will carry you through a crisis.
Yeah, I'd be p.o.'ed if someone gave me such a contract. Why? Because, for me, it would work. The part of me that's been there for at least 18 years now -- the part of me that wants to die, no matter how well I'm doing -- would feel thwarted by one more sentimental, melodramatic piece of crap. Because it would work.
flb
Posted by Phil on January 27, 2002, at 8:58:59
In reply to Therapist wants Suicide Agreement (not to), posted by Shar on January 25, 2002, at 22:12:48
Hey Shar, Tell her you won't kill yourself if she won't kill herself. Then, really make her life miserable.
Posted by Mair on January 27, 2002, at 11:41:15
In reply to Re: You've Got to be Kidding, posted by OldSchool on January 26, 2002, at 20:03:35
I took your statement to Shar about the "cheesy suggestion" exactly the way you intended it - not as a criticism of Shar but of the therapist. My point is that whatever hostility you feel about therapists really has nothing to do with Shar's situation and passing along the inference that this woman is treating her like a child and should be told to "get lost" is pretty insensitive. Hers is a 10 year relationship after all - I'm sure not readily severed over one offensive suggestion, even if, in fact, Shar took it that way.
Mair
Posted by Fi on January 27, 2002, at 13:26:25
In reply to Therapist wants Suicide Agreement (not to), posted by Shar on January 25, 2002, at 22:12:48
It would be a shame to miss out on something you think could be helpful because of this condition.
Maybe you could discuss it with her- is there some compromise like you will contact her if you feel suicidal, or contract month by month (a month is a long time, but a year is just *ages*!)
Another perspective is to think about whether you can allow yourself to break the commitment if you need to, however much you would usually honour your commitments. If you can allow yourself the freedom to have that as a possibility, you dont need to tell her. Obviously not ideal from either perspective- but better than missing the group.
Personally, I think its unrealistic to think that anyone with more than mild depression could make this contract and be sure they could honour it thru a whole year, tho I think the general idea of anything that makes people pause before harming themselves is a good idea in general.Fi
Posted by Krazy Kat on January 27, 2002, at 19:17:13
In reply to Re: You've Got to be Kidding » OldSchool, posted by Mair on January 27, 2002, at 11:41:15
Mair:
I wish I could be as eloquent as you are...
- KK
Posted by Krazy Kat on January 27, 2002, at 19:21:03
In reply to Therapist wants Suicide Agreement (not to), posted by Shar on January 25, 2002, at 22:12:48
Shar:
This is going to sound awfully strange, but do you rebel against things like I do? For instance, it has never worked for me to stop drinking completely, forever - otherwise I'll rebel against it immediately. But if I stop for this day, and then the next day... it seems to work better.
Could one rebel by committing suicide? I have to say, unfortunately, that I could.
I find this request to be very odd - perhaps it protects your therapist from law suits? (I don't mean that in a bad way, just practical). I don't know. I wouldn't be able to sign it.
- KK
Posted by Seamus2 on January 27, 2002, at 19:47:58
In reply to Therapist wants Suicide Agreement (not to), posted by Shar on January 25, 2002, at 22:12:48
Sure, I have experience -- lots of it.
I won't kill myself between Oct 31 and Mar 1. Period.
That's when I'm always liable to be in the worst shape; I know it, I tell my shrinks that, and it's no big deal because I don't play games about it.
So make an agreement you can be comfortable with; maybe six months, or a time frame; or ~~whatever~~; just make a commitment to your (obviously) trusted therapist and yourself and take advantage of the group.
Posted by OldSchool on January 27, 2002, at 20:02:59
In reply to Re: Therapist wants Suicide Agreement (not to) » Shar, posted by Krazy Kat on January 27, 2002, at 19:21:03
> I find this request to be very odd - perhaps it protects your therapist from law suits? (I don't mean that in a bad way, just practical).
Practical is what drives many mental health professionals. Many of them are more concerned about their own liability issues than their patients. In other words if their is the least chance you will committ suicide...they like to have their ass covered in as many ways as possible. Ive seen this occur in different kinds of ways in my own experiences.
Just like I tell people that its a myth you can tell your mental health professional "anything." You cant do that...if you told them everything and anything well all I can say is they have a tendency to overreact bigtime. There are certain things you just cant tell a mental health professional. Again the legal/liability issues kick in. The ideal of "total trust" between patient and therapist is a big myth.
Legal/liability issues also tends to lead to overmedication, such as being put on anti-psychotics when you dont need them. I could go on and on and on about this. The bottom line is that legalities and liability issues are a bigger deal in psychiatry and therapy than whether or not you get better or not.
Most therapists and most psychiatrists will write you off in a heartbeat in order to cover their ass legally.
BTW, what I say might sound really hard and cold, but its the truth in the real world. Real world equals CYA...Cover Your Ass.
Old School
Posted by Mair on January 27, 2002, at 20:53:25
In reply to Re: You've Got to be Kidding » Mair, posted by Krazy Kat on January 27, 2002, at 19:17:13
Posted by Katey on January 27, 2002, at 22:56:26
In reply to Therapist wants Suicide Agreement (not to), posted by Shar on January 25, 2002, at 22:12:48
just thought i would weigh in on this, as its become a pet peeve of mine. i havent had the exact circumstances that you find yourself in Shar, but in an odd, similar way, i have.
when i was seeing my T, i had an extremely low week. this was at the very beginning of the short lived relationship, so i in no way felt comfortable contacting him outside of our appointments. at any rate, i spent a day as a walking dysfunctioning suicide trap. i worked myself out of it, so i was basically fine by the time i got to my next appointment.
i told my T about it and his reaction was so inappropriate to me. i had written a few suicide letters, just to people that i cared about, as a way to help myself. he read those and had some unkind words in terms of those. when i've been suicidal, once i climb out of it, i dont go there again very soon, he apparantly, didn't believe me.
he spent a long time preaching to me about the evils of suicide and how wrong it is to feel that way. he ended the appointment with 'can we make a deal, that you wont committ suicide?'.
the next week i had to break my appointment with him, because i was seeing my pdoc for the first time (gp's orders). when i called him from my pdoc's office, he made me rather angry. when i told him where i was, the first thing he said is 'you didnt try to kill yourself did you?!?!'. needless to say, as soon as i was medicated, i made my next appointment with him my last appointment with him.
In other words, i cant say that i'm much of a fan of contracts like that.
Posted by Shar on January 27, 2002, at 23:56:43
In reply to Re: Therapist wants Suicide Agreement (not to), posted by OldSchool on January 27, 2002, at 20:02:59
God, y'all have so much wisdom and experience and points of view--what wonderful folks you are for responding. I appreciate it very much and it has clarified several issues for me.
I was probably unclear in the original post about the contract--it's not a written contract, it is verbal. She has asked all potential group members to commit to a year of attendance, and then is asking specific things of them if necessary. For me, it was the agreement not to commit suicide for a year.
In her view (if I'm getting it right) it has to do with being fully "present" for group, and ready to work, and if you don't know if you're going to be alive or not next week, one can't really be fully present. There are many things that can interfere with one being present, not just suicidal ideation. Also, she did mention what impact it would have on the group (I think that part is probably factual, but sort of a BS reason, because any group member's death would be traumatic and she isn't asking people to agree not to get hit by a car).
She also talks about "pro-life" behavior (having nothing to do with abortion). That suicide is not pro-life, but making it to group even when I feel my worst (previous group) IS pro-life. It is a willingness to take some, any step in the direction of life or hope...no matter how small a step it is. She is not Pollyanna about it at all, and doesn't want smiles and styles. She knows that sometimes I have to drag myself in.
I think, about her position on the agreement, I feel betrayed because I talked with her about feeling suicidal, and now feel it is being used against me. I have asked about a month to month agreement, but she won't do that. She has said already that she knows this agreement won't stop me if I fully intend to go through with suicide.
I am afraid that when it is not an option for me, that energy will manifest as something much more immediate, such as hurting myself (I've done a little of that in the past) or rage reactions (I've had a few of those). She would probably see rage reactions as a good thing.
As for rebellion or problems with authority, yes! A big part of my reaction to the idea of an agreement was that she was taking undue advantage of her position (authority) and had no right to ask such a personal thing of me. I told her this. To me it is almost like saying, you have to agree to not drink for a year, or something (I'm an AA person); this is something within me that is not under the control of any other person. I wouldn't act on suicide as a form of rebellion against her.
Right now I am leaning toward not joining group because of the required agreement. I have one more individual session with her before the group starts in Feb. I am also pissed at her for her 'carrot and stick' approach, or at least it feels like that; that she can dangle the group in front of me (because I think I would learn a lot and work hard) and then lay down that condition. I told her that, too.
I think I'm rambling now. Thank you all SO MUCH!! This is so much clearer to me now. And, I like Phil's idea a lot...make her agree also then make her life hell. 8-) I will tell her that one.
xoxo
Shar
Posted by Shar on January 30, 2002, at 21:40:10
In reply to Y'all's Input on Suicide Agreement (not to), posted by Shar on January 27, 2002, at 23:56:43
I met with my T and we discussed the agreement.d She is holding fast, and I am leaning toward not going to group tho I REALLY want to. I will let her know Sunday if I plan to go to group or not. We will go ahead and meet individually. She said it might be a real revelation to me to live for a year without suicide being an option for getting out of the pain. Or not, I said.
I mentioned posting here, and talked about some of the things that were said/suggested. It was good for me and for her to be exposed to those ideas.
So, still up in the air. We'll see. Thanks again for the input.
Shar
Posted by Fi on January 31, 2002, at 14:41:17
In reply to Meeting with Therapist Today re Agreement, posted by Shar on January 30, 2002, at 21:40:10
What a stupid woman. As if you could just decide not to, like deciding to put up green paint instead of blue!
I'm really sorry it looks like you're going to miss out on something you think might be useful, and she is so inflexible. Does anyone else in your area run some sort of similar group (without such severe conditions)?
Fi
Posted by Shar on January 31, 2002, at 22:58:34
In reply to Re: Meeting with Therapist Today re Agreement, posted by Fi on January 31, 2002, at 14:41:17
Yes, tons of groups here in Austin. However, I would not look forward to starting over in therapy. In many ways, my T and I are on the same wavelength, and I have done good work with her. I'm letting this decision float until Sunday; hoping the wheat will separate from the chaff by then.
I appreciate your response and acknowledgement, it is a tough decision to make.
Shar
Posted by mair on February 1, 2002, at 13:12:35
In reply to Re: Meeting with Therapist Today re Agreement » Fi, posted by Shar on January 31, 2002, at 22:58:34
Shar- Sorry but I take a different view of all this. I'm concerned that you may be denying yourself access to a group that you really want to join and maybe jeopardizing your relationship with a trusted and valued therapist out of stubbornness, a desire to rebel, misguided principle or a pride which does not really have your best interests at heart.
Your therapist has admitted that this verbal agreement will not prevent you from committing suicide if you have overwelming thoughts that this course is what you must do. Given your sense of commitment, what the agreement will do is make you pause and maybe distract you from the kind of thinking that might make you actually take action. I believe that those of us who do ruminate but not act, while not influenced by a bargain we've struck, are influenced by other thoughts that serve the same purpose as an agreement might for you. For instance, when I feel increasingly suicidal I automatically start thinking in realistic terms about how my suicide will affect my family and sometimes my therapist as well who's worked very hard over the last few years to keep me from becoming another suicide statistic.
My own suicidal thoughts can be very forceful and sometimes can kick in quite frequently but they have never been totally constant for more than a matter of days. As long as they're not constant, I think the kind of thinking I engage in to counteract moving to that next step is healthy thinking, which makes me safe. I'm sure I could get to a more critical stage. If so I'll either not be thinking or caring about my family or will be taking an entirely different view about the effect of my death. I assume if you really get to that stage, a verbal agreement you made with your therapist is going to be the last thing you'll think or care about. We all have a right to take our lives. I don't think this promise takes that right away from you - it may stop you from doing something that you'd regret if you had the opportunity to "undo" it.I realize that there are others on this Board who are willing to feed your sense of offence and outrage and are highly critical of your therapist for making the requirement to begin with. However, I can't see how you have anything to gain by refusing her (other than the satisfaction of knowing that you won a foolish battle of wills) and a huge amount to lose. I concede that I'm obviously not privy to your discussions with your therapist and that there may be other factors which contribute to this being the complicated issue that this seems to be for you. However, based on what you have shared with us, I think that you should swallow your pride, agree to this term and then just forget about it (eg stop obsessing about it). My guess is that you'll be far more advantaged by the group and this therapy than you will by not adding an additional element of conscience to your decision process.
Sorry to be so blunt but I really think you're doing yourself a disservice by drawing an unnecessary line in the sand.
It's also only a year.
Mair
Posted by Dinah on February 1, 2002, at 16:26:33
In reply to Shar - Look at this Differently, posted by mair on February 1, 2002, at 13:12:35
Mair, you know I rarely disagree with your position, but there is one additional factor to consider. If Shar has obsessive ruminations about suicide and the therapist makes them forbidden fruit with the agreement, the obsessions might well become stronger and more disruptive. Obsessions have a habit of doing that. Depending on the strength of the obsessions, that could be a real problem.
I've stayed out of this discussion so far because I can see both sides of the issue. But I do think that there are some valid and sensible reasons to think long and hard about making such an agreement. Perhaps if obsessive ruminations are actually a problem for Shar, she and her therapist could come up with some contingency plans for dealing with them so that the prospect wouldn't be as frightening.
Dinah
Posted by Krazy Kat on February 1, 2002, at 16:37:24
In reply to Re: Shar - Look at this Differently » mair, posted by Dinah on February 1, 2002, at 16:26:33
Dinah:
"obsessive ruminations about suicide and the therapist makes them forbidden fruit with the agreement, the obsessions might well become stronger and more disruptive"
Having been there, and still there, I agree with you completely.- KK
Posted by mair on February 1, 2002, at 16:54:45
In reply to Re: Shar - Look at this Differently » mair, posted by Dinah on February 1, 2002, at 16:26:33
Dinah - I did think about the point you've made. I don't think Shar's therapist has said in any literal way that Shar can't obsessively think about suicide - just that she can't act. My hope would be that Shar could first put the decision behind her, and secondly that when she started obsessively thinking about suicide, she would not escalate that thinking simply because she felt that acting was not an option. I acknowledge that it's also possible that she can't stop these thought patterns. Your suggestion that Shar work something out with her therapist to allow her to vent these feelings is a good one. I'm sure the therapist doesn't want Shar to vent those feelings in the group, but I don't see why this is not something that she can't continue to discuss in private sessions.
I also think that not joining this group and possibly jeopardizing her relationship with her therapist could lead to obsessive thinking of another sort. I've done or thought stuff before that I thought would jeopardize a therapeutic relationship, or cut me off from medical treatment. It's always felt to me anyway like an act of self destruction. Believing that you're very much acting against your own self interest is hard to live with too. Many of us are in the condition we're in in part because we can't look at ourselves in an uncritical way. Hopefully the group will make a positive contribution to Shar's life. If so, I don't think Shar will second guess herself with the decision to strike this agreement to the same degree that she might second guess a decision not to join a group.
Continuing to believe that Shar is doing herself no favors, I remain
Mair
Posted by Dinah on February 1, 2002, at 17:01:46
In reply to Re: Shar - Look at this Differently » Dinah, posted by mair on February 1, 2002, at 16:54:45
I don't disagree. I just wish Shar's therapist had trusted her enough to believe she wouldn't commit suicide because of her responsibility to the group and the possible effects on it without requiring a contract. It would have been fine if she told Shar that discussing suicide in the group wasn't appropriate.
But if wishes were horses....
Things are as they are. Shar just has to decide what to do with it.
(Sorry Shar. We're discussing you as if you weren't there. Didn't mean to do that.)
Dinah
Posted by Greg on February 1, 2002, at 18:13:09
In reply to Meeting with Therapist Today re Agreement, posted by Shar on January 30, 2002, at 21:40:10
MIC,
I must say that I am disapointed with your T's decision to not budge on this issue. You and I both, for reasons I wont go into here (we don't want to open THAT can of worms now do we?), have made the decision to live our lives one day at a time. For us, this is a simple matter of survival. I understand that there may be some who do not get this, but I know your T does. She knows that people like us cannot look beyond today and I find her asking you to make a committment of this nature unfathomable. And knowing that you were willing to commit to a month at a time and she said no, just makes me mad. Nuff' said.
Whatever call you make, I hope it's the right one for you. I know you wanted it.
Love ya,
Greg> I met with my T and we discussed the agreement.d She is holding fast, and I am leaning toward not going to group tho I REALLY want to. I will let her know Sunday if I plan to go to group or not. We will go ahead and meet individually. She said it might be a real revelation to me to live for a year without suicide being an option for getting out of the pain. Or not, I said.
>
> I mentioned posting here, and talked about some of the things that were said/suggested. It was good for me and for her to be exposed to those ideas.
>
> So, still up in the air. We'll see. Thanks again for the input.
>
> Shar
Posted by OldSchool on February 1, 2002, at 19:34:26
In reply to Shar - Look at this Differently, posted by mair on February 1, 2002, at 13:12:35
> Shar- Sorry but I take a different view of all this. I'm concerned that you may be denying yourself access to a group that you really want to join and maybe jeopardizing your relationship with a trusted and valued therapist out of stubbornness, a desire to rebel, misguided principle or a pride which does not really have your best interests at heart.
>
> Your therapist has admitted that this verbal agreement will not prevent you from committing suicide if you have overwelming thoughts that this course is what you must do. Given your sense of commitment, what the agreement will do is make you pause and maybe distract you from the kind of thinking that might make you actually take action. I believe that those of us who do ruminate but not act, while not influenced by a bargain we've struck, are influenced by other thoughts that serve the same purpose as an agreement might for you. For instance, when I feel increasingly suicidal I automatically start thinking in realistic terms about how my suicide will affect my family and sometimes my therapist as well who's worked very hard over the last few years to keep me from becoming another suicide statistic.
> My own suicidal thoughts can be very forceful and sometimes can kick in quite frequently but they have never been totally constant for more than a matter of days. As long as they're not constant, I think the kind of thinking I engage in to counteract moving to that next step is healthy thinking, which makes me safe. I'm sure I could get to a more critical stage. If so I'll either not be thinking or caring about my family or will be taking an entirely different view about the effect of my death. I assume if you really get to that stage, a verbal agreement you made with your therapist is going to be the last thing you'll think or care about. We all have a right to take our lives. I don't think this promise takes that right away from you - it may stop you from doing something that you'd regret if you had the opportunity to "undo" it.
>
> I realize that there are others on this Board who are willing to feed your sense of offence and outrage and are highly critical of your therapist for making the requirement to begin with. However, I can't see how you have anything to gain by refusing her (other than the satisfaction of knowing that you won a foolish battle of wills) and a huge amount to lose. I concede that I'm obviously not privy to your discussions with your therapist and that there may be other factors which contribute to this being the complicated issue that this seems to be for you. However, based on what you have shared with us, I think that you should swallow your pride, agree to this term and then just forget about it (eg stop obsessing about it). My guess is that you'll be far more advantaged by the group and this therapy than you will by not adding an additional element of conscience to your decision process.
>
> Sorry to be so blunt but I really think you're doing yourself a disservice by drawing an unnecessary line in the sand.
>
> It's also only a year.
>
> MairMair, not wanting to sign some silly, cheesy "suicide agreement" or pact has absolutely NOTHING to do whatsoever with being rebellious as you imply. Im a conservative person...hardly rebellious. I dont drink, use recreational drugs, dont smoke and have never had problems with the law or any other similar type behavior which would indicate rebelliousness or disrespect for authority. In fact Im more the opposite. But I can tell you one thing for sure, having your therapist ask you to sign some suicide agreement is something I would never do. Not because I might committ suicide, but because its the idiot treatment. Its stupid. Its cheesy. Its being treated like a little kid. Its just plain goofy.
Many therapists are goofy.
When I was in the hospital for a short period, after I got discharged I was in this silly day hospital program for five days(which made me feel much worse BTW). And the day hospital counselor made us pledge this suicide pact crap everyday. It was like this oral oath you took everyday. It made me feel like a little kid or something...the therapist also read poetry to us everyday. Can you believe that? LOL
I grudgingly went along with it...it was nothing written. It was just an oral pledge "not to committ suicide." It made me feel humiliated and it was demoralizing to me. It honestly made me feel worse because I was not suicidal and it made me realize that these assholes honestly believed the people in my day hospital program were suicidal. Which included me. That pissed me off. I very much got the impression I was being given the little kiddy, "idiot treatment" and Im a grown man.
F**k this suicide agreement and as long as Shar is not in the hospital or something where she just has to go along to get along and get discharged and not rock the boat, I think she should tell her therapist that her idea is silly and makes her feel like she is getting the idiot treatment.
If I was in the hospital and a therapist asked me to do that, I would oblige but only to not make waves while I was hospitalised, so I could get discharged. Id go along, grudgingly so. And I might complain once I was discharged. Outpatient...forget it.
The idiot treatment never works, it always makes people feel worse and mentally ill people get too much of it as it is. The idiot treatment needs to stop in mental health profession and depressed people need to start getting treated with some respect for a change. Getting some real respect would go farther in preventing a person from committing suicide than humiliating them and demoralizing them by asking them to sign some silly "suicide agreement" iel; the idiot treatment.
Old School
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