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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Sourceror on November 26, 2001, at 21:32:36
This is my first post and I guess it is jumping right into the fire. I have dealt with depression most of my life and more recently been diagnosed with bipolar. I am most frustrated right now with the constant reaccuring thoughts of the option of suicide. I wish I would stop having these thoughts as my primary thought process any time things start to get bad. I have started to have these thoughts even at less sever situations. I don't believe I am at any stage to act on it at this point but still it is an ever increasing thought process. I want to change this thought process to a less threatening and more positive way. I don't feel a bad day at work should spark these types of feelings. Does anyone have some suggestions (other than don't do it) on how to help overcome this thought process??
Posted by sar on November 26, 2001, at 22:04:55
In reply to Why suicide????, posted by Sourceror on November 26, 2001, at 21:32:36
dear Sourcerer,
obsessive, recurring thoughts of suicide have been part of my being for wuite awhile. meds have helped, and so has releasing. tonight i cried to my mother (who is usually distant and remote) and she repeatedlt kissed and hugged me. the release felt good.
i, too, am chronically suicidal am looking for a med to assuage this feeling. so far, the most successful things have been pot, benzos, and alcohol, in that order. surely this is not what the doc would prescribe, but he's never precribed me anything as good. i don't recommend it...i just offer it as my own personal experience.
sar
Posted by mist on November 26, 2001, at 23:20:50
In reply to Why suicide????, posted by Sourceror on November 26, 2001, at 21:32:36
Sourceror,
I have not usually felt an immediate desire to kill myself but for most of my life since early adolescence I have had an almost constant death wish. In other words, I wished it would just happen, or someone else would do the deed (like I'd be caught in the crossfire at a crime scene). I have wondered though at times if it was possible using the "mind/body connection" to will myself to death if I concentrated intensely enough. Too hard for me to believe though.I used to think my death wish was caused by depression but lately I have come to suspect that it's caused instead by anxiety. I realized my desire to die is a fear of the future and what it might bring—either emptiness and deprivation or hurtful or frightening experiences (like having to live on the streets for lack of funds when I'm old—one of my fears). This is one among many reasons I'm taking klonopin instead of an AD at the moment. I've only been on it for three days. Hard to tell but I don't feel like dying at the moment, although I've had mild fluctuations even without meds at times.
St. John's Wort did take away my death wish while I took it but it stopped working after a year or so. -mist
> This is my first post and I guess it is jumping right into the fire. I have dealt with depression most of my life and more recently been diagnosed with bipolar. I am most frustrated right now with the constant reaccuring thoughts of the option of suicide. I wish I would stop having these thoughts as my primary thought process any time things start to get bad. I have started to have these thoughts even at less sever situations. I don't believe I am at any stage to act on it at this point but still it is an ever increasing thought process. I want to change this thought process to a less threatening and more positive way. I don't feel a bad day at work should spark these types of feelings. Does anyone have some suggestions (other than don't do it) on how to help overcome this thought process??
Posted by Willow on November 26, 2001, at 23:27:51
In reply to Re: Why suicide???? » Sourceror, posted by sar on November 26, 2001, at 22:04:55
Sourceror
Welcome to the board!
The first time I had a suicidal thought I acted on it and ended up spending a week in the hospital. (Now in hindsight I wonder about the care given, but that's a story for another thread.) After that bad trip I started seeing a psychologist. So the next time when the thoughts crept in I called her and as a result spent a voluntary weekend in the hospital, though that time I refused any attempts to let them draw blood from me.
So after the second time I kept the thoughts to myself. Mine were fairly random, popping up out of the blue. Over a period of time I noticed that they occured during periods of fatigue or stress. (I am slow, this may have taken ten years.) Which is at about the point where you are?
And then for a totally different reason I started seeing a psychologist three years ago. He likes to talk about anxiety. His theory is that people get anxious and then from the chronic anxiety depression results.
So I figure the suicidal thoughts come from anxiety. For myself knowing this for some reason has made the occurence of these thoughts less frequent.
Whispering Willow
ps after the second hospital visit i realized that with time the thoughts go away, knowing this helps too
Posted by Greg A. on November 27, 2001, at 1:51:09
In reply to Why suicide????, posted by Sourceror on November 26, 2001, at 21:32:36
Why suicide indeed. What drives a person to that thought? What suffering makes one want to end it that way?
The reason most people can't understand the 'why' part is because it's something unique. It really amounts to you not being able to handle whatever has come to rest on you. You see no way out - and you desperately want a way out. If the pain is too much to bear; if the solutions prescribed by professionals do not provide relief, then suicide is the ultimate way of telling yourself that you do have some measure of control. You are the one who can throw the switch.
When I reached the point of thinking that taking my own life was the only way out, it was because i thought I had exhausted all the alternatives and the only one left was suicide. I worried les about what others might think than about escaping the pain tht weighed me down.
It's amazing how one person, or one med., can change your perspective.
Greg.
Posted by ChrisK on November 27, 2001, at 3:11:00
In reply to Why suicide????, posted by Sourceror on November 26, 2001, at 21:32:36
I had an extreme problem with ruminating thoughts of suicide and death in general. They followed with me constantly and got to the point where I did have two attempts that landed me in ICU for a few days. The one thing that helped more than anything else was Zyprexa. I know that there aren't always medical ways to get out of the situation and others respond better to therapy but I don't know where I'd be without Zyprexa today.
I got to the point where I KNEW that I was too much of a burden on the people I loved and needed to go away so that they could get on with their lives. I wanted nothing more than to die. After my second attempt when I was in the hospital my pdoc gave me Zyprexa and within a week there was a noticable difference. I still felt worthless but my thinking had cleared to the point where suicide was not a minute to minute option. I slowly grew out of that thought pattern and managed to start living my own life again.
Please think about trying one of the antipsychotics. They can be very hel[pful in clearing up obsessive and deadly thought patterns.
Chris
Posted by jay on November 27, 2001, at 6:10:41
In reply to Why suicide????, posted by Sourceror on November 26, 2001, at 21:32:36
> This is my first post and I guess it is jumping right into the fire. I have dealt with depression most of my life and more recently been diagnosed with bipolar. I am most frustrated right now with the constant reaccuring thoughts of the option of suicide. I wish I would stop having these thoughts as my primary thought process any time things start to get bad. I have started to have these thoughts even at less sever situations. I don't believe I am at any stage to act on it at this point but still it is an ever increasing thought process. I want to change this thought process to a less threatening and more positive way. I don't feel a bad day at work should spark these types of feelings. Does anyone have some suggestions (other than don't do it) on how to help overcome this thought process??
You asked the right question...and maybe you need some further guidance on further questions. We all know that depression is a mix-mash of environment and genetics. I honestly think with the strong environment, and maybe good meds, we can outwit our genes. Afterall, genes are not destiny.
In your life....what is causing great stress? Stress isn't always, but often a precipitating factor in suicide. Usually it's the buildup of stress...then one factor that *snaps* it, and it can be the smallest thing.
Let's go through some of the basics.....
-How is your relationships with family/friends/etc?
-How are finances?
-How is your job...that sounds like a MAJOR trigger point.
-DO you *really* enjoy your job...I mean...would you work at your job for free? I am serious...because I don't buy into the idea of just having a life-long job to pay bills. This is a North American LIE....There has to be a high level of interpersonal satisfaction, and when you don't get that, it adds up, and can contribute to serious personality/mental illness problems. SERIOUSLY think about another line of work if so....and do not rule out ANY options. I know of a salesman who went onto college, and became a philosophy prof.
-How is your health physically?
-About what age range are you in?These are basics....but a start. In fact, these are the types of questions a social worker would ask...so you can guess what I am. :-) (Even though I am outta work!...heh....but I am upgrading in college to become more empowered to make social and personal change. It has *nil* to do with money.)
Please take your time to give a rundown. You WILL be really surprised once you dig deeper. (I am not saying you don't.)Hope to hear from you...
Jay
Posted by Krazy Kat on November 27, 2001, at 8:05:51
In reply to Why suicide????, posted by Sourceror on November 26, 2001, at 21:32:36
> Welcome!
Mood stabilizers have helped me with obsessive, ruminating thoughts in general, including suicide. First Topamax and now Depakote.
They helped me "think more linerally" and gave me more control over my thoughts so that I could stop them when they started.
Also, I realized that I was not alone with this problem, which made me feel better about myself. Why would someone obsess over negative things? It's part of the illness (I'm diagnosed BP II). I'm convinced of that.
Good luck.
- K.
Posted by Katey on November 27, 2001, at 9:34:56
In reply to Re: Why suicide???? » Sourceror, posted by Krazy Kat on November 27, 2001, at 8:05:51
first off, welcome the board (im a 'newbie' too...well sorta).
i can relate to a lot of what people are saying. ive walked out of classes (im the youngin) where i failed a test and felt like crying and killing myself. like others, ive toyed with the power of thought to kill myself. this might help you a little bit tho. it sounds like you have suicidal ideation, rather than suicidal intent. intent is dangerous, ideation is just scary and obnoxious. im still working on figuring out how to deal with these thoughts, but i think just venting and talking it about it has helped a lot. especially with people who can empathize. not much advice there, sorry
Katey
Posted by Krazy Kat on November 27, 2001, at 9:55:54
In reply to Re: Why suicide????, posted by Greg A. on November 27, 2001, at 1:51:09
The actual physical pain of depression and suicidal thoughts - that's a good point. It's amazing isn't it, how your mind can do that?
For that part of it, I'm not sure what the answer is, except to call your pdoc and wait it out. It's frightening, though.
Posted by Fi on November 27, 2001, at 12:30:46
In reply to Re: Why suicide????, posted by Katey on November 27, 2001, at 9:34:56
I agree on this- its having the thoughts that sounds like its the problem. Certainly worth talking to a pdoc about (cognitive therapy can sometimes help deal with thoughts). Meanwhile, if just a little bit of your mind can remind you that the thoughts are part of your illness, not an accurate idea you will act on, this will reassure you a lot. Makes the suicidal thoughts less impressive, and less worrying. Just an idea.
Fi
> first off, welcome the board (im a 'newbie' too...well sorta).
>
> i can relate to a lot of what people are saying. ive walked out of classes (im the youngin) where i failed a test and felt like crying and killing myself. like others, ive toyed with the power of thought to kill myself. this might help you a little bit tho. it sounds like you have suicidal ideation, rather than suicidal intent. intent is dangerous, ideation is just scary and obnoxious. im still working on figuring out how to deal with these thoughts, but i think just venting and talking it about it has helped a lot. especially with people who can empathize. not much advice there, sorry
>
> Katey
Posted by Greg A. on November 27, 2001, at 12:36:55
In reply to Re: Why suicide????, posted by ChrisK on November 27, 2001, at 3:11:00
Chris - I've just started zyprexa. Any tips or things I should watch for. Been on it about a weekand noticed last 2 days I have had a sense of humour. Something that was long absent.
How much do you take? When? How long have you used it? Are you on other meds. as well?An inquisitive Greg
Posted by janejj on November 27, 2001, at 15:08:39
In reply to Re: Why suicide????, posted by Fi on November 27, 2001, at 12:30:46
Some people would say that it is all part of natural selection or survival of the fittest.
Imagine a world where there were no drugs to help with symptoms of diseases or cures. People would die from things like diabetes, even the flu. People would die at birth from things that can now be prevented by intensive care. So eventually only the fittest would survive.
So imagine a world where antidepressants didn't exist. Depression is supposedly caused by a deficieny of certain chemicals in the brain, ie seratonin. This deficiency makes your brain drag up negative thoughts from the past, it makes you slow, tired and basically renders you unable to effectively function in society. This negativity feeds on itself and eventually you start getting suicidal thoughts. Parts of your brain have shut down and perhaps messages are being sent to your brain telling you to self destruct. So suicidal thoughts are just part of an illness, except that we can try and control them. Some one with terminal cancer has little hope as their body eventually shuts down, but depression can definately be helped.....even just by cognitive talking therapy some people can be cured as their brain is rewired to think positively.
Anyway good luck and take care, remember that its an illness that can be cured, so don't give up hope.
J xxx
I agree on this- its having the thoughts that sounds like its the problem. Certainly worth talking to a pdoc about (cognitive therapy can sometimes help deal with thoughts). Meanwhile, if just a little bit of your mind can remind you that the thoughts are part of your illness, not an accurate idea you will act on, this will reassure you a lot. Makes the suicidal thoughts less impressive, and less worrying. Just an idea.
>
> Fi
>
> > first off, welcome the board (im a 'newbie' too...well sorta).
> >
> > i can relate to a lot of what people are saying. ive walked out of classes (im the youngin) where i failed a test and felt like crying and killing myself. like others, ive toyed with the power of thought to kill myself. this might help you a little bit tho. it sounds like you have suicidal ideation, rather than suicidal intent. intent is dangerous, ideation is just scary and obnoxious. im still working on figuring out how to deal with these thoughts, but i think just venting and talking it about it has helped a lot. especially with people who can empathize. not much advice there, sorry
> >
> > Katey
Posted by Sourceror on November 27, 2001, at 21:00:05
In reply to Re: Why suicide???? » Sourceror, posted by jay on November 27, 2001, at 6:10:41
I appreciate all the feedback I am getting and am going to try to answer a few of the questions that have come up and maybe add some commentary on others. By the way I saw my new pdoc today and my new therapist since I just moved from NJ to GA about 4 weeks ago and I just now finally got tied back in with the mental health system. I have another appointment next week that I hope will start to get into dealing with my problems and not just a fact finding mission. They added trazodone to my normal buffet of Eskalith, depakote, and zyprexa. We'll see what happens.
In Re to jay:
> Let's go through some of the basics.....
>
> -How is your relationships with family/friends/etc?Things are great right now for the most part with both my family and friends
> -How are finances?
My finances pretty much suck right now. I have had to move back in with my parents for awhile to try and get back on my feet.
> -How is your job...that sounds like a MAJOR trigger point.
My job sucks but for now I am basically stuck because I recently got my drivers license suspended for a year. I had to take a job close to home that had hours in which I could get rides from my parents.
> -How is your health physically?
Physically the only thing going on is I am slightly overweight.
> -About what age range are you in?
I am 28 yrs old.
Chris:I am glad that Zyprexa has had such a great effect for you. I have been on it for several monthes now and I still have the thoughts I posted about. I guess meds work different for different people.
Katey:
You had some good points about suicidal ideation and suicidal intent. It took me a couple minutes to ponder over that and for me I feel like I teater back and forth between the two. Some days I will be dealing with the suicidal ideation then others will dive into suicidal intent going so far as to set the drugs aside pick the day and best time to do it and have a full plan set out.THESE THOUGHTS SUCK AND I JUST WANT THEM TO GO AWAY!!!!
Posted by ChrisK on November 28, 2001, at 4:33:52
In reply to Chris K. - Zyprexa, posted by Greg A. on November 27, 2001, at 12:36:55
Greg,
I've been on it longer than I can remember now. Started out at the traditional 2.5 mg/day and played with doses until I settled at 7.5 mg/day.
I always try to take it after dinner even though I don't notice the sedation anymore. The biggest thing to look out for is the appetite and especially the carb cravings. I put on about 50-60 extra pounds origianlly. Now I am taking them off slowly but they are coming off.
To me the best thing Zyprexa did was to clear up very muddled thinking. I started while in the hospital after a failed OD attempt and the suicide obsession was a MAJOR problem. Once I started thinking more clearly I could appreciate some things that had left my life (like you and finding a sense of humor).
I would never look at Zyprexa as a stand alone AD. My main AD is Nortriptyline although a lot of people react well to adding it to an SSRI. I also take Mirapex for the anhedonia that remained even after the clarity returned.
I guess the most important things to watch are the appetite and sedation problems that it can cause early on. Other than that I think it has made a bigger difference in my life than any other med I have tried. I'd still rather be fat and happy (or close to it) than thin and depressed.
Hope it works out as well for you,
Chris
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