Posted by KaraS on December 1, 2004, at 22:16:16
In reply to Re: Sleep, selegiline and autoreceptors » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on November 25, 2004, at 5:17:17
> > > Yes, your brain could have adapted to a deficiency in dopamine by becoming exquisitely autoreceptive. But again, I'm encouraging you to not close your mind on the subject. Theories are just that, theories. What else might explain your symptoms/response to meds? That should always be something being thought about, in parallel to your consideration of this one theory.
> >
> > Most of the other theories I've entertained so far have to do with processes around dopamine in some way. Too limiting perhaps?
>
> Thinking itself can be too limiting. I know you don't want to waste time, or effort, but as we all know, paradoxical responses are paradoxical only with respect to thinking. They are, in fact, quite natural for the individual so responding.I have to admit that I am prejudiced in favor of this theory. I've spent a lot of time on it. I finally understand it and I now know what to do about it. I don't want to start over! <g> But I will try to keep my mind open to other explanations. I have a hard time thinking that this could just be natural for me though. Natural in the sense that I may have been born this way, yes, but not natural in the sense that it should work this way. My depressive symptoms fit the low dopamine mold so something around that process is not right.
> > > Have you stayed on the meds for long enough to see if your body re-adapts?
> >
> > No, that's why I've just started trying it again. It's not easy to function on it though because it makes me sleepy during the day and then 8-9 hours later makes me feel stimulated. I will probably try taking it at night and hope that taking the DLPA in the morning will work out. If I start to change how I react to it (which is the goal) then I would switch to taking it in the AM.I'm taking the selegiline at night and the DLPA during the day. I'm only taking 2.5 mg. right now though. I'm just too groggy during the day with the 5 mg. Hopefully I'll build up to 5 soon. Also, I'll try taking the 2.5 mg in the day after the DLPA. I'm still in the early stages of experimentation with this.
> I did a little "go off the selegiline and see what happens" experiment, and boy howdy, did I go boom. Back on it, and the brain works, but I can't sleep worth a darn. Maybe I should see if I can get some phenobarbitol.So it works for you for both depression and cognition but the ampethamine metabolites are destroying your ability to sleep. How frustrating! Have you tried increasing the melatonin dosage per Ktemene's post? Too bad rasagiline isn't available yet! Does selegiline work better for you than all other ADs that you've tried? Are you still taking Solost?
> > > > 3) Do you know anything about the liquid selegiline citrate? I've read that it's better than the selegiline hydrochloride pills but I have a feeling that's more of a political issue than a therapeutic one.
> > >
> > > It's moot to me. Only the hydrochloride tablets available in Canada.
> > >
> > > I suspect the sublingual preparations are better tolerated, and may avoid first-pass metabolism transformations. In gut uptake, the drugs run an enzyme gauntlet in the intestinal wall and mesentery, and then pass via the portal vein to the liver, where they get another shot at being enzymatically transformed. It looks like selegiline is substantially affected by first-pass metabolism, so I see this as a pharmacological issue, not a political one.There is also a political issue surrounding the difficulty in finding the liquid citrate version here in the U.S. That's another story though.
> > The selegiline citrate is a liquid - not sublingual. It goes through the stomach. So in that respect it would be a more equal comparison. Perhaps I will do the experiment at some point.
>
> I cannot see the point of having a liquid preparation of this drug (which is also available as a quick-dissolving tablet for sublingual use), if it is not for sublingual use. It may not say so on the label, but that's how I would use it, without question. And, also without question, sublingual use of the regular tablets has a greater beneficial effect, with fewer side effects. Avoiding first-pass metabolism seems to be an important aspect of omptimizing selegiline's effects.I tried putting the selegiline under my tongue so as to avoid the first-pass metabolism but it started burning and it tasted so unpleasant. I had to stop it before it completely dissolved. I don't know how you're able to tolerate it that way unless you have one of the special forms that are made to be taken sublingually.
I'm going to see if I can find any more info on the citrate version and why some claim it's so much better.
Kara
poster:KaraS
thread:387192
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20041123/msgs/423159.html