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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Miller on January 3, 2003, at 18:24:24
I hope I haven't offended you in some way. I feel lonely when you don't answer each of my posts. Or am I now boring you?
I'm having abandondment issues with you!! :)
-Miller
Posted by Dinah on January 3, 2003, at 20:06:59
In reply to Dinah..., posted by Miller on January 3, 2003, at 18:24:24
LOL. Thank you for the laugh. I'm feeling a bit vulnerable today and I needed it. Therapy left me a bit wobbly. Then I watched the movie K-19 (I think). A very melancholy movie. I'm addicted to Harrison Ford though.
Of course you haven't offended me. I kept telling you I wasn't stalking you on purpose. :)
I did, however, pause to admire several of your posts today. I'm impressed with your ability to give support while you're still feeling so rotten.
Dinah
Posted by Miller on January 3, 2003, at 20:23:12
In reply to Re: Miller..., posted by Dinah on January 3, 2003, at 20:06:59
Purrrr....
I feel much better now. I decided I kind of need your guidance. After the Tina post (I hate to keep bringing it up) I feel a little in need of guidance.
I am sorry about your appointment, do you want to talk about it?
Thanks for the compliment on my posts. Funny, I just took a break from my shrink's assignments and I was just thinking about that issue. One of my assignments is to try to figure out my motivations. One is that I need to be needed. I have an ability to see things as other people do. So, for example, if someone is angry, I may see the anger as an expression of being hurt or scared.
Sometimes it is a good trait to have. Other times, I tend to justify mean things people do, only to set myself back up.
Does your therapist give you assignments? These are basically my first. When I talked to him today, I referred to them as assignments. He was not pleased with my terminology. HA!! I sometimes get a kick when I can get him riled up.
-Miller
Posted by Dinah on January 3, 2003, at 21:07:04
In reply to Re: Miller... » Dinah, posted by Miller on January 3, 2003, at 20:23:12
My therapist isn't foolish enough to give stubborn me assignments exactly. But he asks two or three questions each session that I don't know the answer to, wily fox that he is. My subconscious sets to work on it and a day or so later I'll sit upright in the bed or bath with the answer. The next session I'll have the answer and he'll try to remember the question. :)
Not sure why the session left me wobbly. Relief I guess. I asked him some of the questions I worked myself up to wonder about and I was satisfied with the answers. So except for forgetting that thing he forgot, he's ok with me again. (I'm back to euphemisms I see).
Miller, I can see from your posts that you have a lot to offer. And I agree that helping others is a great antidepressant. I'm so glad you decided to stick around. And that you're acknowledging your strengths!
Posted by Miller on January 3, 2003, at 22:14:52
In reply to Re: Miller... » Miller, posted by Dinah on January 3, 2003, at 21:07:04
Thanks Dinah,
I am feeling better than I was. I think I am putting a lot of hope into the three weeks of being off of work and being able to concentrated on dealing with my issues with no distractions. I have been working since I was 12 so this will be the only break (other than scheduled vacations) that I can recall to devote to myself. I want to feel beter. Even when I am in a very bad state (suicidal) I want a sign that I can be happy. The signs just never show up in a timely manner.
Now, back to you. I assume you are referring to his commitment to protect you if he leaves, correct? How, exactly, do you know he forgot? Was the commitment something he wouldn't do for you if he hadn't promised?
I know it sounds rediculous, but when you said you feel relieved because you asked him questions you were anxious about, how did you do it? Did you have to work it into the conversation or did you just "jump in" and ask him? It's so much easier if my shrink asks me questions, than if I have to "create" my own session.
Until a couple of sessions ago, I wasn't even telling him about my daily traumas. I ended up faxing him a letter filling him in on some of my misdirected decisions.
Why is it that I feel closer to my shrink when I am NOT in his office? When I am sitting in front of him, I can't let it out.
OK, back to you. (I know, I get side-tracked a lot.) How long have you been seeing this therapist? Do you tell him EVERYTHING? (Except, of course that he has let you down and you are crushed over it.) How long did it take you to feel comfortable with him? Do you think it is now harder for you to talk to him since he has hurt you and it isn't resolved yet? Last question: In your heart, do you know you will resolve this issue with him; are you jst waiting for the nerve or "perfect" opportunity?
Well, I guess I have pumped you for enough information for one night, huh? I'll stop hassling you.
Dinah, you are a good person. Thanks for being here.
-Miller
Posted by Dinah on January 3, 2003, at 22:42:26
In reply to Re: Miller... » Dinah, posted by Miller on January 3, 2003, at 22:14:52
> Even when I am in a very bad state (suicidal) I want a sign that I can be happy. The signs just never show up in a timely manner.
You just need to learn how to look for them.
>
> Now, back to you. I assume you are referring to his commitment to protect you if he leaves, correct? How, exactly, do you know he forgot? Was the commitment something he wouldn't do for you if he hadn't promised?
>
I don't think he'd assume it was necessary, although he knows how dependent I am on him. I've been honest about that for a couple of years. But this was different. I just couldn't tell him. In fact to be honest I never did use the "S" word. It just isn't in me to say "I think there's a pretty good possibility that I'll kill myself if you aband... errr... terminate me." Waaaay too dramatic for me. I couldn't get my mouth around those words. I think I told him that this was my last secret from him, and that I had been keeping it from him for years. I told him that I needed to be hospitalized when he terminates me, because I would not be safe with myself, and that he needed to have arrangements made ahead of time, because part of my plan was to lie like crazy to him at the moment. Then we worked out the details of how it would be arranged, and I checked several times to make sure he understood the seriousness of it. A couple of weeks later, I directly referred to our plans involving termination. He mentioned a conversation we had had a few weeks before that about my not wanting to continue therapy after he tells me he's terminating me. I asked over and over if there was anything else he remembered. I told him he was forgetting something important. And he drew a complete blank. Since he always tries to be honest with me, I have to assume he's telling the truth and does not remember that conversation. Doesn't it sound that way to you?> I know it sounds rediculous, but when you said you feel relieved because you asked him questions you were anxious about, how did you do it? Did you have to work it into the conversation or did you just "jump in" and ask him? It's so much easier if my shrink asks me questions, than if I have to "create" my own session.
>
He always makes me responsible for the content of the session. Since it was on my mind I guess I could most honestly say that I brought the conversation to that topic.
>
> Why is it that I feel closer to my shrink when I am NOT in his office? When I am sitting in front of him, I can't let it out.I can't answer that for you, but for me the him I imagine him to be is really more important than the him he really is. Transference.
>
> OK, back to you. (I know, I get side-tracked a lot.) How long have you been seeing this therapist? Do you tell him EVERYTHING? (Except, of course that he has let you down and you are crushed over it.) How long did it take you to feel comfortable with him? Do you think it is now harder for you to talk to him since he has hurt you and it isn't resolved yet? Last question: In your heart, do you know you will resolve this issue with him; are you jst waiting for the nerve or "perfect" opportunity?
>
I have told him everything now. He just forgot some of it. :) I'm not crushed exactly. I have no illusions about the nature of our relationship. I'm angry that he forgot something that was so hard for me to say, and I think it's a bit irresponsible of him. It took me five years to trust him completely and to open up to him emotionally. I was factually honest with him from the start for practical reasons. Therapy is worthless if you aren't honest. But in my particular case, it was equally worthless until I opened up emotionally. Well, I guess it wasn't. It was five years of hard work learning to trust him. It's going to be eight years altogether this spring. In my heart I don't think I'm going to tell him again. But I'm being honest on this board in the hopes that one day it will be less momentous to me and I will be able to be honest with him about it. As long as it looms large in my mind as a secret, I won't tell him again. If I can learn to laugh about it, I might.Thanks for listening Miller.
Posted by Kam on January 4, 2003, at 1:46:29
In reply to Re: Miller... » Dinah, posted by Miller on January 3, 2003, at 22:14:52
Miller,
It's Kam, I just wanted to say most of the best sessions I had with my therapist were when I started the convo (she would make me). As much as I hated It!!! I realized after a while though as I was being pissy, thats how they know what's up with you, after all they aren't with you 24-7. And this is from someone who is sooooo panic ridin in front of anyone in public or private when speaking. I remember having a panic attack in her office and she said look around you and say what you see well me and my Scorpio sense of humor put the Romper Room in test. I said I see the picture and I see etc.. My point is you need to let it out when you are there, and if your not comfortable see someone else. It is so important for your recovery !!
Posted by Noa on January 4, 2003, at 8:34:11
In reply to Re: Miller..., posted by Kam on January 4, 2003, at 1:46:29
I, personally, wouldn't do well with structured therapy where the therapist came in with an agenda. But I can see that that kind of therapy would be helpful to other people. It is a matter of preference, I guess.
The only thing is that once when I was suicidal and didn't tell him until the end of the session, at the next session, he basically read me the riot act and told me that if I come in feeling suicidal, that has to be said up front, not at the end.
Also, although my therapist is not directive in approach, he is not the silent, passive therapist, either. He is very interactive.
Posted by Noa on January 4, 2003, at 8:35:22
In reply to Re: Miller..., posted by Dinah on January 3, 2003, at 22:42:26
Dinah, I really do relate to why you are angry about his having forgot. I would be angry too, I think. It puzzles me how he could forget.
Posted by Dinah on January 4, 2003, at 10:20:28
In reply to Re: Miller... » Dinah, posted by Noa on January 4, 2003, at 8:35:22
> Dinah, I really do relate to why you are angry about his having forgot. I would be angry too, I think. It puzzles me how he could forget.
Me too. Unless he was drunk or high... And I don't think he abuses, although sometimes I wonder.
Actually, if I remember correctly, he was upset about some things in his private life at the time. I don't know what they were, but they seemed to have thrown him for a loop. Is that an excuse good enough for me to forgive him? I don't know, and even if it is, I'm nowhere near being able to re-tell him.
It's just too loaded with significance right now. That's why I didn't tell him for years. I think the only reason I could tell him at all is that I was on my trial of Risperdal and nothing much had any significance. I guess I need to consider why this topic is so emotionally laden for me. He knows all the components, that I'm not averse to killing myself, that he's horrendously important to me. So why is putting all that together of such momentous importance to me? Like some closely guarded temple secret.
Posted by Miller on January 4, 2003, at 10:48:12
In reply to Re: Miller..., posted by Dinah on January 3, 2003, at 22:42:26
Dinah,
I have read your response many times. The reason I kept re-reading it was to try to understand why a therapist who is good enough to make you comfortable and maintain a relationship with you for so long could have "forgotten" something which was so important to you.
Here is my thought. The only time I was VERY angry with my shrink, I told him I was mad because he never takes my despeartion seriously. To me, I felt as if he was minimizing my feelings. When he and I discussed it, it was a total miscommunication. Here's why: when I would tell him how bad I felt and why I felt that way, he would simply agree or ask other questions. To me, that meant he was "blowing it off". To him, he said he was totally understanding why I felt that way and didn't need "convincing". He accepted the feelings as ligitimate. WHen I pressed the issue and asked why he wasn't helping me with my desperations he had a very important explaination.
He said he sees our relationship as if he is in a boat supervising me. I am swimming. He will be there if I get into trouble, too tired to continue, or begin to go under the water. However, what he has seen from me is that I am in a panic, flailing my arms, and begging for help. I am in a foot of water. He is watching me, but has faith that I will discover that I can touch land and be able to help myself.
Whay did I tell you all of this? After thinking about your post, I am wondering if the conversation left his mind because 1) he isn't planning on terminated the relationship 2) he has faith that although you may feel dependant on him, you may be stronger than you are giving yourself credit for 3) he may not have realized that the arrangements meant more to you than reassurance. When you spoke with him, he may have realized you were serious (at that point) but assumed the arrangements were being discussed for reassurance purposes, being he is not planning a departure from you.
Are you in two feet of water in fear of drowning? Are you hurt because he forgot or because the arrangements may not be kept if he does leave? Are the arrangements REALLY still necessary?
Please don't take offense to anything I wrote. I could be way off base. It certainly wouldn't be the first time. I really think there is probably more to your anger than you may be acknowledging.
And, one last thing. I am pretty sure you were the one that reminded me that there is no way a therapist can know what is going on unless you give him all the facts.
-Miller
Posted by Dinah on January 4, 2003, at 11:01:42
In reply to Re: Miller... » Dinah, posted by Miller on January 4, 2003, at 10:48:12
> Are the arrangements REALLY still necessary?
Yes, I believe they are. Now mind you, my rational self knows how utterly stupid that is. But there are times I am not rational, and I have reason to believe this is one of those times. There is a firm plan in place, and I'm not sure that I would have the strength or the motivation to resist it at that moment. I find life barely tolerable now, and the loss of my safety would make it appear at least short term to be unbearable. It's possible but by no means certain that I could, or would want to, maintain control.
> I really think there is probably more to your anger than you may be acknowledging.
You mean that I see it as a sign of him not caring? Possible I suppose, but I long ago came to terms with the amount he cared for me. Other reminders don't hurt and so I don't think this one would. Pinch a bit maybe, but not hurt.
> And, one last thing. I am pretty sure you were the one that reminded me that there is no way a therapist can know what is going on unless you give him all the facts.
I agree. But something is holding me back on this one. I'm hoping to work it through sufficiently to understand why. Maybe it's as simple as the majority of me doesn't want to be stopped.Thanks, Miller.
Dinah
Posted by Dinah on January 4, 2003, at 11:03:05
In reply to Re: Miller..., posted by Dinah on January 4, 2003, at 11:01:42
PS. I'm sorry to expose my less rational side on the board. I usually try to keep it under wraps.
Posted by Miller on January 4, 2003, at 11:10:39
In reply to Re: Miller..., posted by Dinah on January 4, 2003, at 11:03:05
Don't be sorry about being honest. You know from all of my posts how rational I can be. :)
Well, if he has actually forgotten, is there anybody else that you can make the arrangements with? If he does ever terminate (doesn't seem likely in the near future) maybe there can be another "safety" in place.
As for life being "barely tolerable" as it is, I can totally relate. But, deep down, there has to be a REASON that you would want to be safe if the bottom falls out of your comfort zone. Perhaps you want to be dependant on someone? So, if he leaves, being in a hospital will give you an opportunity to find someone else to depend on? Is he the only person you can be dependant on?
I'm sorry you are hurting. I wish I could help more.
-Miller
Posted by Dinah on January 4, 2003, at 16:12:59
In reply to Re: Miller... » Dinah, posted by Miller on January 4, 2003, at 11:10:39
Well, my not well thought out safety plan was to be hospitalized long enough to be drugged into apathy and my emotional life shut down so that I could go on to live a reasonably productive if joyless life (so that I wouldn't hurt my son by killing myself) in which no emotions would be felt and thus no safety net needed.
Perhaps not the best way to conceptualize it, and perhaps part of the reason I'm not sure I want to be stopped.
Ah well, I'll set my subconscious on to the problem and see if it comes up with anything.
As Alii rightly said on another thread, I usually work these things out on my own eventually, with some help from other posters.
Posted by Miller on January 5, 2003, at 0:04:32
In reply to Re: Miller..., posted by Dinah on January 4, 2003, at 16:12:59
Dinah,
I wish you well in your quest. I know you will be able to work it out.
-Miller
This is the end of the thread.
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