![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by m3 on February 15, 2002, at 0:59:55
I have a question for other people in talk therapy (guessing there are at least a few on this board). I just went for one of my fifty-minute hours, and my shrink and I were talking about how restless I felt and how I was tired of being depressed and tired of being in therapy (background: I've been seeing her for about 11 mos, we generally get along pretty well).
Toward the end of the session she took up the theme of whether I was angry with her because the treatment has been ineffective (this has come up before). I told her that I didn't directly feel that way, though it might be causing some of my restlessness. We continued to discuss it, and she again asked if I was annoyed with her. I got the idea she wanted me to be annoyed with her. She kept pushing me in that direction. I finally became annoyed because I felt manipulated. I accused her of manipulating me, and she didn't exactly respond.
Nobody likes feeling manipulated, and I accept that it sometimes happens in therapy, but I really feel disrespected and betrayed right now.
So my question for the community of the being-shrunk is, is this fair? Am I supposed to play along and try to accept that she has the right to do things like this? Has this ever happened to you? What gives?
Posted by Dinah on February 15, 2002, at 14:07:54
In reply to grraaaaarrrh, posted by m3 on February 15, 2002, at 0:59:55
I wouldn't think your therapist was actually trying to manipulate you. Sometimes when they really think they are right about something and you deny it, they push you a bit, thinking that there might be a reason for your denying it. By their thinking, if you get angry or deny it strongly, then they're on to something.
For what it's worth, here's what I do with my therapist on those occasions where a simple denial doesn't suffice. I enthusiastically and honestly try to explore the idea that he is right. I ask lots of questions about how, for example, I would know I was angry if I didn't actually feel anger towards him. I would ask him what it would mean if I felt angry towards him. I would ask him if he thought that an inability to feel anger towards him might be contributing to my lack of progress. I would ask if he felt irritated with me. I would search deep in my gut for any feelings of irritation and discuss them with him. In other words, if he seemed like he was really dead set on exploring something, I would explore it in greater detail than even he would like until he was sorry he brought it up. And I would be totally sincere about it, because I would wonder why he thought it was important. On the other hand, I might be being a bit manipulative myself. Is it possible to be completely sincere and a bit manipulative?
I guess what I do is become more proactive about it. If something can't be avoided, it at least feels better if you have some control over it. Maybe I should print this out and discuss it with MY therapist next week. :)
Posted by kiddo on February 15, 2002, at 14:25:35
In reply to grraaaaarrrh, posted by m3 on February 15, 2002, at 0:59:55
Hiya-
I'm kiddo, pleased to 'meet' you...
I've been seeing my pdoc (psychiatrist) for 6 years, and I've been where you are many times.
For me, I've reached this point at several different times during therapy, and I'm sure I will again. There are reasons for it (for me), I'll list the ones I've dealt with in the past, and maybe it will spark something with you.
1.) Either my current challenges have become 'easy', and the level needs to be raised.2.) I'm depressed, and feel therapy isn't working (which it has, I've made major improvements since the beginning) and need to reflect on those accomplishments, be reassured that I'm not wasting my time, and a lot of money.
3.) The meds I'm on aren't working as they should and adjustments need to be made.
4.) I'm dealing with issues that need to be addressed either in my home life or therapy. (Sometimes it takes a lot of 'reflecting' to figure out which)
5.) Something my pdoc has said, done, etc., has triggered something from my past and I need to deal with that.
6.) I am ticked off at my pdoc for some reason.
My pdoc has, on several occasions, tried to get me to react (most of the times successfully) if I'm in that frame of mind.
Do you think she knows you well? She may have been trying to get you to react/respond because anger is a great motivator (at least for me). Anger will do a lot more than depression, and if you are angry-with her, or whatever, you seem to forget about the depression-at least for the moment....
I think you need to let her know exactly how you feel about feeling manipulated, disrespected, and betrayed. That's important, in my opinion.
I'm not sure I can answer that for you; regarding whether or not you should accept that or not. However, you shouldn't just accept feeling the way you said....
I'm pretty blunt with my pdoc and if I feel that way, he'll know pretty quick, and we talk about it.
I'd write down the questions you asked the group, and ask her as well. You have every right to ask any questions regarding your treatment, and she shouldn't have any trouble answering her motives for her line of questioning...maybe she thinks you do have problems with therapy being ineffective at the moment, and had no ulterior motive in asking..
I know that probably didn't help much, but I hope so...
I'm sure someone else on the board will be able to add a lot more insight...
Good luck-
Kiddo
> I have a question for other people in talk therapy (guessing there are at least a few on this board). I just went for one of my fifty-minute hours, and my shrink and I were talking about how restless I felt and how I was tired of being depressed and tired of being in therapy (background: I've been seeing her for about 11 mos, we generally get along pretty well).
>
> Toward the end of the session she took up the theme of whether I was angry with her because the treatment has been ineffective (this has come up before). I told her that I didn't directly feel that way, though it might be causing some of my restlessness. We continued to discuss it, and she again asked if I was annoyed with her. I got the idea she wanted me to be annoyed with her. She kept pushing me in that direction. I finally became annoyed because I felt manipulated. I accused her of manipulating me, and she didn't exactly respond.
>
> Nobody likes feeling manipulated, and I accept that it sometimes happens in therapy, but I really feel disrespected and betrayed right now.
>
> So my question for the community of the being-shrunk is, is this fair? Am I supposed to play along and try to accept that she has the right to do things like this? Has this ever happened to you? What gives?
Posted by kiddo on February 15, 2002, at 14:47:00
In reply to Re: grraaaaarrrh » m3, posted by Dinah on February 15, 2002, at 14:07:54
Posted by Dinah on February 15, 2002, at 14:54:50
In reply to Great answer dinah, printing this too for my pdoc! (nm) » Dinah, posted by kiddo on February 15, 2002, at 14:47:00
Posted by m3 on February 15, 2002, at 15:18:58
In reply to Re: grraaaaarrrh » m3, posted by Dinah on February 15, 2002, at 14:07:54
Thank you for giving me your perspective. I guess I feel like I had been going along with the search for why I might be angry with her. I even managed to dig up some frustration directly with her.
But I experience it mostly as a frustration with the situation of being depressed. She seems to feel it would be healthier for me to have an object to vent my frustrations upon (she has said as much, more than once). She is also apparently volunteering to be the object (that's me second-guessing). Fine, whatever, she's trying to make me practice being angry or observe myself being angry or something. The problem is, I feel degraded by this little game, and I'm going to have a hard time trusting her with further emotional revelations if I feel she doesn't have respect for them, which is the message I get from being manipulated.
Gaaah! I'm crying. And meanwhile I'm supposed to believe this will make me feel better in the end...what evil god invented this profession?
thanks for patience with ranting
M3> I wouldn't think your therapist was actually trying to manipulate you. Sometimes when they really think they are right about something and you deny it, they push you a bit, thinking that there might be a reason for your denying it. By their thinking, if you get angry or deny it strongly, then they're on to something.
> For what it's worth, here's what I do with my therapist on those occasions where a simple denial doesn't suffice. I enthusiastically and honestly try to explore the idea that he is right. I ask lots of questions about how, for example, I would know I was angry if I didn't actually feel anger towards him. I would ask him what it would mean if I felt angry towards him. I would ask him if he thought that an inability to feel anger towards him might be contributing to my lack of progress. I would ask if he felt irritated with me. I would search deep in my gut for any feelings of irritation and discuss them with him. In other words, if he seemed like he was really dead set on exploring something, I would explore it in greater detail than even he would like until he was sorry he brought it up. And I would be totally sincere about it, because I would wonder why he thought it was important. On the other hand, I might be being a bit manipulative myself. Is it possible to be completely sincere and a bit manipulative?
> I guess what I do is become more proactive about it. If something can't be avoided, it at least feels better if you have some control over it. Maybe I should print this out and discuss it with MY therapist next week. :)
Posted by Dinah on February 15, 2002, at 15:35:56
In reply to Re: grraaaaarrrh » Dinah, posted by m3 on February 15, 2002, at 15:18:58
Please print out this thread and bring it to your next session. This sort of thing is difficult, but it's the stuff therapy is made of. That way you can see if her intentions are what you are guessing them to be. A lot of times I read things into my therapist's actions and responses that he never intended. And I can't speak for your therapist, but mine sometimes has nothing whatsoever in mind and barely remembers what seemed significant to me. It's important to just ask. Of course, I never manage to do it during the session in question, but I might call later if I'm really upset or I might bring it up the next session.
And you might try asking a few questions about how she thinks therapy is going to help you and what plan she has for you. And look for concrete answers. And I hope, of course, that you are on a good medication regimen.
I'm sorry if my previous post seemed insensitive to you or missed the point of your question. I do know how frustrating the therapeutic relationship can be. But I find it remarkably less frustrating when the mystery is taken out of it and I'm not guessing what he's thinking or trying to do.
Best wishes,
Dinah> Thank you for giving me your perspective. I guess I feel like I had been going along with the search for why I might be angry with her. I even managed to dig up some frustration directly with her.
>
> But I experience it mostly as a frustration with the situation of being depressed. She seems to feel it would be healthier for me to have an object to vent my frustrations upon (she has said as much, more than once). She is also apparently volunteering to be the object (that's me second-guessing). Fine, whatever, she's trying to make me practice being angry or observe myself being angry or something. The problem is, I feel degraded by this little game, and I'm going to have a hard time trusting her with further emotional revelations if I feel she doesn't have respect for them, which is the message I get from being manipulated.
>
> Gaaah! I'm crying. And meanwhile I'm supposed to believe this will make me feel better in the end...what evil god invented this profession?
>
>
> thanks for patience with ranting
> M3
>
Posted by mist on February 15, 2002, at 15:45:46
In reply to grraaaaarrrh, posted by m3 on February 15, 2002, at 0:59:55
m3,
I had a therapist who did the same thing to me and I felt similar to the way you do about it.
I didn't necessarily think it was manipulative, though, but I felt she was trying to put a feeling into me that simply wasn't there. I was frustrated with the fact that I wasn't making more progress but I didn't blame her. In fact, I had appreciated what I had gained from therapy (self-knowledge) and her support and assistance with working out solutions to problems.
I was angry at her at a later point because I felt that there were things she should have done and didn't (like giving me more feedback—including answering questions I asked instead of evading them—and acknowledging her own limitations), but not at that time. To me it's a matter of respect—the therapist should respect what the client feels when they feel it. I felt she wasn't listening to me. She wasn't seeing who I was. I also felt she was wasting my precious, expensive time in therapy when I needed to talk about other things.
I also don't believe that just having an object to be angry at necessarily helps to alleviate depression. And even if it does, there are real objects. If someone is angry there is a real cause for it. No need to invent one. -mist
> I have a question for other people in talk therapy (guessing there are at least a few on this board). I just went for one of my fifty-minute hours, and my shrink and I were talking about how restless I felt and how I was tired of being depressed and tired of being in therapy (background: I've been seeing her for about 11 mos, we generally get along pretty well).
>
> Toward the end of the session she took up the theme of whether I was angry with her because the treatment has been ineffective (this has come up before). I told her that I didn't directly feel that way, though it might be causing some of my restlessness. We continued to discuss it, and she again asked if I was annoyed with her. I got the idea she wanted me to be annoyed with her. She kept pushing me in that direction. I finally became annoyed because I felt manipulated. I accused her of manipulating me, and she didn't exactly respond.
>
> Nobody likes feeling manipulated, and I accept that it sometimes happens in therapy, but I really feel disrespected and betrayed right now.
>
> So my question for the community of the being-shrunk is, is this fair? Am I supposed to play along and try to accept that she has the right to do things like this? Has this ever happened to you? What gives?
Posted by m3 on February 15, 2002, at 16:57:49
In reply to Re: grraaaaarrrh » m3, posted by Dinah on February 15, 2002, at 15:35:56
>but I might call later if I'm really upset or I might bring it up the next session.
I'm considering calling her, but it seems like it would be unfulfilling to try to resolve it over the phone. Our next appt's on Monday night.
> And you might try asking a few questions about how she thinks therapy is going to help you and what plan she has for you. And look for concrete answers. And I hope, of course, that you are on a good medication regimen.I've asked about this many times, and generally gotten a mostly satifsying response. I am switching meds at the moment, which complicates things.
> I'm sorry if my previous post seemed insensitive to you or missed the point of your question. I do know how frustrating the therapeutic relationship can be. But I find it remarkably less frustrating when the mystery is taken out of it and I'm not guessing what he's thinking or trying to do.Not at all, I really did appreciate you sharing your perspective. I guess I was a little frustrated by your answer because I agree with you! So I felt I had already tried what you were suggesting. But you had no way to know that from my post. Anyway, thanks, and you're right about printing out the thread. I guess I'll have to see if I feel inclined to share anything with her in the next session, but I'll bring the printout.
Again, thanks for trying to reason with me while I'm in rant mode. It is helping me calm down a little.
m3
Posted by m3 on February 15, 2002, at 16:59:16
In reply to Re: grraaaaarrrh » m3, posted by Dinah on February 15, 2002, at 15:35:56
last post was a reply to Dinah. oops.
Posted by mair on February 15, 2002, at 17:19:51
In reply to Re: grraaaaarrrh » Dinah, posted by m3 on February 15, 2002, at 16:59:16
Posted by m3 on February 15, 2002, at 17:48:59
In reply to Re: grraaaaarrrh » m3, posted by kiddo on February 15, 2002, at 14:25:35
Hi kiddo, pleased to make your acquaintance :) I've read some of your other posts, while in lurk mode, and liked them.
It's reassuring that somebody else has been through something similar, and some of the reasons you listed did resonate. (I loved the list format, btw--as a former tech writer I adore bulleted/numbered lists!)
re #2: Can I ask how you identify the major improvements you said you'd made in therapy? I guess I have an inkling that I do some things differently now than I would have, but couldn't really nail down a major improvement.
When your pdoc does try to get you to react, does it take the form of trying to piss you off or is it something else?
I really appreciate that you put so much thought into your answer...answers to all my pesky questions are welcomed but I don't mean to be intrusive.
cheers
m3> 1.) Either my current challenges have become 'easy', and the level needs to be raised.
>
> 2.) I'm depressed, and feel therapy isn't working (which it has, I've made major improvements since the beginning) and need to reflect on those accomplishments, be reassured that I'm not wasting my time, and a lot of money.
>
> 3.) The meds I'm on aren't working as they should and adjustments need to be made.
>
> 4.) I'm dealing with issues that need to be addressed either in my home life or therapy. (Sometimes it takes a lot of 'reflecting' to figure out which)
>
> 5.) Something my pdoc has said, done, etc., has triggered something from my past and I need to deal with that.
>
> 6.) I am ticked off at my pdoc for some reason.
>
> My pdoc has, on several occasions, tried to get me to react (most of the times successfully) if I'm in that frame of mind.
>
> Do you think she knows you well? She may have been trying to get you to react/respond because anger is a great motivator (at least for me). Anger will do a lot more than depression, and if you are angry-with her, or whatever, you seem to forget about the depression-at least for the moment....
>
> I think you need to let her know exactly how you feel about feeling manipulated, disrespected, and betrayed. That's important, in my opinion.
>
> I'm not sure I can answer that for you; regarding whether or not you should accept that or not. However, you shouldn't just accept feeling the way you said....
>
> I'm pretty blunt with my pdoc and if I feel that way, he'll know pretty quick, and we talk about it.
>
> I'd write down the questions you asked the group, and ask her as well. You have every right to ask any questions regarding your treatment, and she shouldn't have any trouble answering her motives for her line of questioning...maybe she thinks you do have problems with therapy being ineffective at the moment, and had no ulterior motive in asking..
>
> I know that probably didn't help much, but I hope so...
>
> I'm sure someone else on the board will be able to add a lot more insight...
>
>
> Good luck-
> Kiddo
>
Posted by Dinah on February 15, 2002, at 17:58:07
In reply to Dinah When You're Good You're Very Very Good (nm), posted by mair on February 15, 2002, at 17:19:51
Posted by kiddo on February 15, 2002, at 19:09:43
In reply to Re: grraaaaarrrh » kiddo, posted by m3 on February 15, 2002, at 17:48:59
Thanks for the compliment, that lifted my mood a bit. Boy, the 'stories' or examples I could give...
When you see something that remotely resembles what you're experiencing, it makes you feel less alienated, at least that's how I feel. I also think it helps me when people give examples because often it does spark something for me. I like the list and bullet format myself, and probably read something..I read a LOT of techie stuff :-)
As for #2- When I first started therapy, I felt nothing, and I mean that literally. It was like I was dead, there was no feeling at all, not even my daughter. I was suicidal the entire time I was awake. I hated myself, and I don't mean just physical appearance-everything there was about me. I left my home to ONLY see my pdoc, nowhere else.
Now I have feelings about everything, I'm not suicidal anymore, I've accepted about 1/4-1/2 of the things about me, I'm attending college via online courses and take Tae Kwon Do; and although their private lessons, at least I leave my home, right? :-) Those may not be major to some, but to me they are.
Oh does he ever try to piss me off, sometimes it's unbelievable how much he can make me see red. Although I can't name specifics right now (it's been awhile) he'll challenge everything I say. Regardless of what it is-he'll have some way to provoke a response.
He's also quick to remind me of the progress I've made, tells me he's proud of that progress, and if I question it, he'll go down the list I just gave you...well, isn't it true that...? I'm sure there are others as well.
You aren't being intrusive, and they aren't pesky questions...IMO. I'm glad I can give a response.
Kiddo
> Hi kiddo, pleased to make your acquaintance :) I've read some of your other posts, while in lurk mode, and liked them.
>
> It's reassuring that somebody else has been through something similar, and some of the reasons you listed did resonate. (I loved the list format, btw--as a former tech writer I adore bulleted/numbered lists!)
>
> re #2: Can I ask how you identify the major improvements you said you'd made in therapy? I guess I have an inkling that I do some things differently now than I would have, but couldn't really nail down a major improvement.
>
> When your pdoc does try to get you to react, does it take the form of trying to piss you off or is it something else?
>
> I really appreciate that you put so much thought into your answer...answers to all my pesky questions are welcomed but I don't mean to be intrusive.
>
> cheers
> m3
>
> > 1.) Either my current challenges have become 'easy', and the level needs to be raised.
> >
> > 2.) I'm depressed, and feel therapy isn't working (which it has, I've made major improvements since the beginning) and need to reflect on those accomplishments, be reassured that I'm not wasting my time, and a lot of money.
> >
> > 3.) The meds I'm on aren't working as they should and adjustments need to be made.
> >
> > 4.) I'm dealing with issues that need to be addressed either in my home life or therapy. (Sometimes it takes a lot of 'reflecting' to figure out which)
> >
> > 5.) Something my pdoc has said, done, etc., has triggered something from my past and I need to deal with that.
> >
> > 6.) I am ticked off at my pdoc for some reason.
> >
> > My pdoc has, on several occasions, tried to get me to react (most of the times successfully) if I'm in that frame of mind.
> >
> > Do you think she knows you well? She may have been trying to get you to react/respond because anger is a great motivator (at least for me). Anger will do a lot more than depression, and if you are angry-with her, or whatever, you seem to forget about the depression-at least for the moment....
> >
> > I think you need to let her know exactly how you feel about feeling manipulated, disrespected, and betrayed. That's important, in my opinion.
> >
> > I'm not sure I can answer that for you; regarding whether or not you should accept that or not. However, you shouldn't just accept feeling the way you said....
> >
> > I'm pretty blunt with my pdoc and if I feel that way, he'll know pretty quick, and we talk about it.
> >
> > I'd write down the questions you asked the group, and ask her as well. You have every right to ask any questions regarding your treatment, and she shouldn't have any trouble answering her motives for her line of questioning...maybe she thinks you do have problems with therapy being ineffective at the moment, and had no ulterior motive in asking..
> >
> > I know that probably didn't help much, but I hope so...
> >
> > I'm sure someone else on the board will be able to add a lot more insight...
> >
> >
> > Good luck-
> > Kiddo
> >
Posted by mair on February 18, 2002, at 15:18:17
In reply to Re: And When I'm Bad, I'm Rotten? :) (nm) » mair, posted by Dinah on February 15, 2002, at 17:58:07
No NO No Dinah. I posted my message because I had just finished reading a number of your posts, not just on this thread but elsewhere as well (Lou's thread for instance). I was impressed and needed to find a way to say that quickly. You write so well and your posts frequently contain a wonderful combination of insight, tact, and sensitivity.
Mair
Posted by Dinah on February 18, 2002, at 17:55:08
In reply to Re: And When I'm Bad, I'm Rotten? :) » Dinah, posted by mair on February 18, 2002, at 15:18:17
Thank you Mair,
Such a wonderful compliment! You really made my day.
I was really just kidding with my post. It would never occur to me that you would post anything remotely unkind. Everything that you so kindly wrote about me I could quite truthfully apply to you and your posts as well.
Fondly,
Dinah
Posted by m3 on February 19, 2002, at 2:19:04
In reply to Re: grraaaaarrrh » m3, posted by kiddo on February 15, 2002, at 19:09:43
I had my appt. tonight. My T says that she made a mistake; she acknowledges continuing to push a little after I said I felt manipulated but says she did not understand that pushing more would cause so much hurt/anger.I am trying to believe her. I certainly think therapists can make mistakes and it seems within reason that her words last time could just be a mistake. It is still a struggle to try to believe/forgive her; I don't have very much insight into where she's coming from due to the ol' therapist privacy thing.
To clarify something that I'm not sure came through in previous posts: I don't/didn't suspect her of being out to get me, or deliberately trying to damage me or the therapeutic bond. Let me recap what I'm concerned about, since I am still interested in getting other people's take(s) on it:
This is what happened, confirmed with her tonight:
1) I am restless, tired of being depressed, a little frustrated with the ineffectiveness of treatment (>11 mos. with her, 2 yrs on meds).
2) Therapist notices my frustration and believes I might be angry with her but unable to express it or possibly to feel it.
3) T repeatedly suggests, over several sessions, that I am angry or irritated with her. Usually a question: Are you annoyed with me because you don't feel any better? Sometimes: I sense you're a little frustrated with me because you don't feel any better.
4) I continue to say, sincerely, that I feel frustrated by my situation more than by her. I dig up a little frustration with her but it doesn't amount to much.This is what *I fear* then happened:
5) Therapist, with good intentions, decides to *assist me to be angry* (not just to assist me expressing it) with her. Possibly she wants me to transfer anger at my illness or parents or whatever to her, in the interests of helping me get over it.
6) T proceeds to provoke me to be angry with her by pushing past my feelings of being manipulated and continuing to suggest I am angry with her. Possibly she thinks the easiest way she can make me angry with her is if she creates a situation where I notice being manipulated. She somehow does not see that this will also make me lose trust in her. Or worse, she foresees this but decides that I'll get over it.
Back to what actually did happen:
The result of what I perceived as deliberate manipulation is that I do feel angry, betrayed, and disrespected. It is hard for me to respond to anything she says, especially things ending in a question mark. I resent my feelings because I feel that they were planted against my will.It is still difficult for me to dismiss the idea that this was deliberate, even if it was well-meaning: why would she tell me if it was? When we had our appt tonight she was trying hard to express caring, empathy, concern. But she would also do that if the plan was for me to transfer anger and work through it. She brought up transference ("maybe this reminds you of how you were treated by someone else") tonight. Is this "evidence", somehow? It's also a logical question. I don't know. I don't want to be in this second-guessing mode at all, but here I am.
I guess writing this post has helped me to identify some of the "weak spots" in my suspicions. My natural tendency is to assume that the simplest explanation is true, even in psychotherapy, and I consider "it was a mistake" to be simpler than 5 and 6 above. I guess I'll have to wait and see if that's enough.
M3, who has typed more than she thought she had and thanks any remaining readers for their patience
Posted by IsoM on February 19, 2002, at 2:33:30
In reply to Re: grraaaaarrrh (update, long), posted by m3 on February 19, 2002, at 2:19:04
M3, I just don't know what to respond to your questions or what your therapist may be trying to get at. If she can manipulate you by pushing, can't she also manipulate you by acting with empathy? I'm *very* upfront with everyone. I can't pretend or hide my feelings or ideas that good and know I couldn't handle being manipulated. What you see is what you get - nothing less, nothing more.
Can you ask her if she can still work effectively with you by simply acting straight-forward, no games, no testing, no manipulations. Just ask her if she'll use logic & honesty in dealing with you. Really, how else can a person build trust with another?
I've never been in therapy & never plan to be so I may not have very sound advice. Like someone who lives in the tropics trying to advice an Inuit on how to dress. But all I can say is, I absolutely LOATHE it when people try to apply psychology on me instead of simply asking me what I meant. I can't imagine you like it any better, especially coming from someone who should know better.
Posted by kiddo on February 19, 2002, at 14:08:42
In reply to Re: grraaaaarrrh (update, long), posted by m3 on February 19, 2002, at 2:19:04
Hi M3-
I included your post because I want to make sure I respond correctly and hopefully say what I mean without too much trouble. bear with me, ok :-)
> I had my appt. tonight. My T says that she made a mistake; she acknowledges continuing to push a little after I said I felt manipulated but says she did not understand that pushing more would cause so much hurt/anger.
>
This doesn't seem right to me, if she admitted that she made a mistake, why would she continue to do it; furthermore, why doesn't she understand her mistake?If that isn't the case in her not understanding-why doesn't she ask the appropriate questions to help her understand? Why and in what context you feel manipulated, do you feel she's trying to push you away...I'm sure you get the idea...
This IMNSO (in my not so humble) opinion think this is HER issue, not yours...perhaps a classic case of Freud's "Counter-transference" or the fact that she's projecting her feelings in this area onto you...is she angry with you because of the ineffectiveness, etc.?
> I am trying to believe her. I certainly think therapists can make mistakes and it seems within reason that her words last time could just be a mistake. It is still a struggle to try to believe/forgive her; I don't have very much insight into where she's coming from due to the ol' therapist privacy thing.
>
Yes, therapists/psychiatrists make mistakes in therapy all the time...(they don't call it 'practicing' medicine for nothing..hehe)I think THAT right there is the area you should explore and not let it drop-therapy, regardless of how hard you try, will be ineffective if you have difficulty believing/forgiving her.
If you can't get straightforward answers from her because of the "ol'therapist privacy thing", you have to learn 'shrink speak'. Get your questions answered in the same manner therapists do.
***snipped***> This is what happened, confirmed with her tonight:
> 1) I am restless, tired of being depressed, a little frustrated with the ineffectiveness of treatment (>11 mos. with her, 2 yrs on meds).
I understand this part, been there; you seem at a standstill, want to be better, sick of the entire scene and want to get on with your life...at least that's how it is for me
> 2) Therapist notices my frustration and believes I might be angry with her but unable to express it or possibly to feel it.
Perhaps, but if you are unable to express it, I think you'd know that; and if you are and can't feel it, you don't know about because you aren't ready to deal with it yet. IMO (In My Opinion) your answer would be correct in both situations.
> 3) T repeatedly suggests, over several sessions, that I am angry or irritated with her. Usually a question: Are you annoyed with me because you don't feel any better? Sometimes: I sense you're a little frustrated with me because you don't feel any better.
Have you noticed the area of discussion or what's being said just before this comes up? Something regarding the relationship that causes either of you discomfort? She should ask open-ended questions-allowing you to give a 'true' reply..
> 4) I continue to say, sincerely, that I feel frustrated by my situation more than by her. I dig up a little frustration with her but it doesn't amount to much.
>
You shouldn't need to *continue* to answer this question...if she thinks there's an anger issue, and you aren't answering, she should drop it and explore other areas...No wonder you dig up frustration with her....
> This is what *I fear* then happened:
> 5) Therapist, with good intentions, decides to *assist me to be angry* (not just to assist me expressing it) with her. Possibly she wants me to transfer anger at my illness or parents or whatever to her, in the interests of helping me get over it.
This may be a 'part' of therapy, but it isn't her job to help the process along. It's supposed to happen in it's own time (be warned, I'm not a Freud person and have problems with the transference aspect)
> 6) T proceeds to provoke me to be angry with her by pushing past my feelings of being manipulated and continuing to suggest I am angry with her. Possibly she thinks the easiest way she can make me angry with her is if she creates a situation where I notice being manipulated. She somehow does not see that this will also make me lose trust in her. Or worse, she foresees this but decides that I'll get over it.
>
This is a possiblity, and since you have these concerns, you should address this with her.
>
> Back to what actually did happen:
> The result of what I perceived as deliberate manipulation is that I do feel angry, betrayed, and disrespected. It is hard for me to respond to anything she says, especially things ending in a question mark. I resent my feelings because I feel that they were planted against my will.
>
> It is still difficult for me to dismiss the idea that this was deliberate, even if it was well-meaning: why would she tell me if it was? When we had our appt tonight she was trying hard to express caring, empathy, concern. But she would also do that if the plan was for me to transfer anger and work through it. She brought up transference ("maybe this reminds you of how you were treated by someone else") tonight. Is this "evidence", somehow? It's also a logical question. I don't know. I don't want to be in this second-guessing mode at all, but here I am.
>
Again-I think perhaps this is an issue of counter-transference...
> I guess writing this post has helped me to identify some of the "weak spots" in my suspicions. My natural tendency is to assume that the simplest explanation is true, even in psychotherapy, and I consider "it was a mistake" to be simpler than 5 and 6 above. I guess I'll have to wait and see if that's enough.
>
> M3, who has typed more than she thought she had and thanks any remaining readers for their patienceSometimes the answers are so simplistic we don't see them for that reason, other times they must be searched for; like on a treasure hunt with no map...
Sorry to be so long-windedKiddo
This is the end of the thread.
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