![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 6 to 30 of 37. Go back in thread:
Posted by seldomseen on February 5, 2009, at 11:17:17
In reply to Testing our relationships with our Ts (long), posted by antigua3 on February 5, 2009, at 9:34:50
I am so sorry that you are in a bad place and feel abandoned by those that you expected to help. I understand that feeling.
For me, it's much easier and much more comfortable to just come to the conclusion that nobody cares. It's like an old pair of jeans, that have stretched and molded to my body, it just fits.
However, one day I noticed those old jeans made my butt look really big and just weren't working out for me anymore no matter how comfortable.
I'm a big tester myself, well I used to be at least. For me, the primary problem with testing proved to be that I was constantly misinterpreting the results of the test. Then, when confronted with the actual interpretation, I would misinterpret that too.
I've just come to the conclusion that I can never know what someone's intentions, thoughts, motivations are unless I directly ask. At least then that points me in the right direction. Of course, then I have to trust that they are telling me the truth, which requires a lot of work, but I never even get to that point unless I ask.
I've also learned that, as much as I wish he was, my therapist is not at all magic when it comes to reading my mind either. He doesn't know what I want or need unless I tell him.
SOmetimes I have to beat him down with the fact that I am in a bad place before he "gets it". I used to attribute his slow on the uptake methods to all sorts of things, but in reality he's a human being who misses subtle, and sometimes not so subtle clues. Yeah, they have all this training and the like, but they're still human.
I really started taking a hard look at that way I communicated with my therapist. Was I clear in the way I told him something? Did I ask for what I wanted? Did I just expect him to know? Is that a fair expectation?
However, the most important question I asked was "Were my own issues getting in the way of me getting what I need from him?" When I decided that the answer to that specific question was "Yes", then things began to change.
The testing stopped and I started talking. It helped a lot.
Seldom.
Posted by Dinah on February 5, 2009, at 11:29:19
In reply to Re: Testing our relationships with our Ts (long), posted by antigua3 on February 5, 2009, at 11:09:36
I'm sure you're aware of this yourself, but I'm struck with the difference in how you describe your pdoc in different posts.
At first I definitely got the impression that he was incapable of giving you what you needed from him. Then I heard things from you that made me think that he was indeed capable of being caring and warmish (not warm precisely).
I know it's true of everyone that their opinion shifts about others in their lives. Certainly when I came out of my session Tuesday my primary thought was that he was a jerk who really couldn't possibly care about me. But if I try to balance that view with other views of my therapist I can't really hold on to that picture.
If you try to hold both images of your pdoc in your mind, are you able to meld them together into a synthesis that makes sense to you?
For example, my therapist has a lousy memory, can be defensive and so dense that it's hard to believe it isn't on purpose. Yet he can also be gentle and teasing and warm and wise. He totally loses his head in a crisis of his own, yet he is able to be a strong supportive and steady presence in my life. Even though his life is far less stable than mine. His optimism and self confidence are nearly delusional, yet he is great at admitting when he has made a mistake. Sometimes he is distant and impatient and even angry with me. Yet these things can happen without affecting our relationship as a whole. The things that make him infuriating to me are also the things that make him valuable to me.
If you were to take some posts from a while back with positive descriptions of your pdoc and your posts today, is it possible that both are true? How would you combine them?
Although admittedly my memory may be way off.
Posted by antigua3 on February 5, 2009, at 11:33:26
In reply to Re: Testing our relationships with our Ts (long), posted by seldomseen on February 5, 2009, at 11:17:17
>
> For me, it's much easier and much more comfortable to just come to the conclusion that nobody cares.
>
I think my T and pdoc care in their own ways, w/my pdoc's being very limited and constricted, but I believe that I'm asking for something that is outside the realm of possiblities. It's me and my expectations that are out whack.
>>For me, the primary problem with testing proved to be that I was constantly misinterpreting the results of the test. Then, when confronted with the actual interpretation, I would misinterpret that too.
>
Yep, that's me, too, usually. But, I'm blind, too. I'm not misinterpreting my T, I'm being accepting of her limitations, and I'm certain that I'm not misinterpreting my pdoc. Yes, he's a very busy, important pdoc, and I'm just one of his patients, but even that type of abandonment during my time of need shows a huge disrespect for me, at least that's how I view it. If he's too busy to care for the patients he has, he shouldn't have as many.
> I've just come to the conclusion that I can never know what someone's intentions, thoughts, motivations are unless I directly ask. At least then that points me in the right direction. Of course, then I have to trust that they are telling me the truth, which requires a lot of work, but I never even get to that point unless I ask.
>
Good point. But I know what both of their answers will be and frankly, that's not good enough. I want more, but I'm not going to get it, and maybe that's at the heart of this, too, accepting what I'll never have.> SOmetimes I have to beat him down with the fact that I am in a bad place before he "gets it". I used to attribute his slow on the uptake methods to all sorts of things, but in reality he's a human being who misses subtle, and sometimes not so subtle clues. Yeah, they have all this training and the like, but they're still human.
>
With all due respect, there is no subtlety in any of this. I'm pretty direct.
>
> However, the most important question I asked was "Were my own issues getting in the way of me getting what I need from him?" When I decided that the answer to that specific question was "Yes", then things began to change.
>
> You're absolutely right. But what about when you let these issues go and take the plunge into making these changes, and trusting, and you're kicked in the teeth. You hate yourself for putting yourself into the position of having someone kick you in the teeth again, and you're left hanging with the thought of what a stupid fool I was to ever possibly believe that this person could be trusted, but I trusted him anyway. Same old pattern, but more importantly, it's not going to turn out any differently than all the other times I trusted and was burned.>
>
your comments were great.
thanks,
antigua
Posted by antigua3 on February 5, 2009, at 12:14:07
In reply to Re: Testing our relationships with our Ts (long) » antigua3, posted by Dinah on February 5, 2009, at 11:29:19
Your memory isn't off at all, Dinah. You're right.
I think I view the relationship as a Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde one. I can't remember which one was the kind one, but when my pdoc has been helpful--which has been in helping me to deal with issues that arise today--I have very warm thoughts toward him and have been grateful. He has taught me some invaluable coping skills. I will also add that he was kind to me in the last, terribly difficult, session.
But when he's the other character, I admit I can't see straight. He is too much of an authority figure in my life and because of my father I have terrible outcomes with authority figures, which I realize is a reason to try to see this through to conclusion. Admittedly, my fear is that the outcome will be no different and I want to run, and he knows that because we've discussed this frequently. This is a pattern I go through--reveal intimate details, feel ashamed and run. But this time I reached out for help and no help is forthcoming. Struggling alone and pulling myself up by my bootstraps doesn't work for feelings from my past that are so much more emotional.
Holding opposing views of him at the same time is practically unbearable because I can't do that w/my father. My overwhelming feeling toward my father is love, and I have a terrible time w/accepting or feeling the anger or rage that I should feel about the great harm he did to me. I'd rather forgive him then face it.
My pdoc will say that I shouldn't give him power over my feelings. I need to take responsibility for how I feel. That sounds reasonable, but it also conveniently allows him to abdicate any responsibility for his role in reviving these feelings and the feelings of abandonment it evokes when he ignores me.
He will also say that I'm incapable of accepting an authority figure as kind or compassionate and again, I'd rather run than deal with that. He's right, probably.
But, of course, we don't even have a relationship according to him, and while I can kind of see what he's saying (and we've talked about it), that's still very invalidating to me and leaves me hanging on my own. I'm not sure I have the strength for this view anymore, and I don't think it's healthy.
I've struggled w/the balancing act, and gotten through it pretty well at times, but this time it feels like the straw that broke the camel's back.
Thanks so much for your thoughts,
antigua
Posted by backseatdriver on February 5, 2009, at 15:25:18
In reply to Re: Testing our relationships with our Ts (long) » antigua3, posted by Dinah on February 5, 2009, at 11:29:19
>> His optimism and self confidence are nearly delusional, yet he is great at admitting when he has made a mistake.
Not to hijack this excellent thread but, Dinah, this observation made me smile. Of course he is great at admitting mistakes -- his faulty (but optimistic) ideas about reality suggest that he probably makes a lot of them. So he's had practice.
BSD
Posted by backseatdriver on February 5, 2009, at 15:31:03
In reply to Re: Testing our relationships with our Ts (long), posted by antigua3 on February 5, 2009, at 12:14:07
Antigua,
I'm so sorry for what you're going through.
My T's line on these sorts of abandonments (and that is what they are) is that if a T abandons you like this in session, it is actually a kind of compliment. I know this sounds awful; it certainly feels awful to me when it happens. Perhaps what your pdoc is saying -- very poorly -- is that you really are not far from where you need to be. That you have sources and strengths that perhaps you don't yet fully appreciate in yourself, but others feel them.
You shouldn't get *dumped* on for having these strengths of course, and this is where I think your pdoc made a big mistake, by abandoning you to deal without helping you out.
Yours,
BSD
Posted by sharon7 on February 5, 2009, at 16:44:09
In reply to Re: Testing our relationships with our Ts (long), posted by sharon7 on February 5, 2009, at 11:03:12
Me again. So your pdoc does therapy, too? When I go to see mine (he's in the office adjacent to my therapist's) I'm in there like for 5-10 minutes tops. He just wants to see how I'm doing on the meds and that's it. We never 'talk.' He's a nice man and I like him, but (because I'm so new to all of this,) I thought all pdocs do is prescribe meds, but evidently the do therapy, too, although in the case of yours, it sounds like he might not be doing it very well, and I'm sorry.
So you worked with your T for 18 years and doing therapy with the pdoc for 3 + years? Just out of curiousity, why did you start doing therapy with the pdoc instead of just with your therapist?
I wonder if after a while t's, pdocs, and just dr's in general get kind of calloused and accustomed to our 'pain?' Sometimes their attitude would make it seem that way. I don't know if it's part of their conditioning or what, but with our emotions being so raw, you'd think they'd try taking just a little better care of us during those 'bad times.'
I am so sorry you are feeling so hurt and rejected and depressed. I hope maybe you're feeling a little better (?) I don't know what the answer is myself, because now that I'm in therapy, I'm realizing how painful even just the relationship with the therapist can be.
I wish I knew something to say to make you feel better. But you're in my thoughts and I hope the depression lifts soon. Take care now and know that I care. (o:
Sharon
Posted by antigua3 on February 5, 2009, at 19:28:36
In reply to Re: Testing our relationships with our Ts (long), posted by backseatdriver on February 5, 2009, at 15:31:03
Some interesting insight.
> ...if a T abandons you like this in session, it is actually a kind of compliment.... Perhaps what your pdoc is saying -- very poorly -- is that you really are not far from where you need to be. That you have sources and strengths that perhaps you don't yet fully appreciate in yourself, but others feel them.
>Oh yes, he will be very proud of me for handling this on my own. I can see that coming from a mile away. Kind of makes me want to really misbehave to get his attention, but that would only be hurtful to me. He has said it would have no effect on him.
But even mother birds don't shove their babies out until they actually can fly. If they do, the babies die.
I'd like to say that he mishandled this, but the truth is that this IS the way he handles these types of things w/me. There's a disconnect and I can't seem to breach that gap between us without falling.
antigua
Posted by antigua3 on February 5, 2009, at 19:35:37
In reply to Re: Testing our relationships with our Ts (long) » sharon7, posted by sharon7 on February 5, 2009, at 16:44:09
I took a nice loooong nap and feel better about my view of the situation(s). I'm more firmly convinced that I'm right.
Yes, I began therapy w/my pdoc at his suggestion, with the clear goal between us that I wanted help resolving my issues about my father. I haven't been able to do that w/my T, and she fully supported my efforts. He said he could help me, and I believed him, not quite anticipating the harsh methods he would use.
He does prescribe my meds and is mostly very good at that. I appreciate his efforts in this capacity, partly because it's a team effort and he respects my opinion on how I'm feeling and what I need. Too bad his therapy isn't as good. OK, now I sound bitter. Guess I am.
If he has become calloused and accustomed to my pain, he should only be a prescribing pdoc IMO. I feel like an appt w/huge $$$ signs attached and no more.
Thanks for your support. I really appreciate it.
antigua
Posted by Sharon7 on February 5, 2009, at 20:47:04
In reply to Re: Testing our relationships with our Ts (long) » sharon7, posted by antigua3 on February 5, 2009, at 19:35:37
Hey! You must have been writing to me at the same time! I did not see yours before I sent mine. But I was encouraged when I read this. I'm glad you feel better after the nap. I know I always do! I love a nap. I usually always try and take one on the weekends. (o:
Posted by lucie lu on February 6, 2009, at 10:36:13
In reply to Testing our relationships with our Ts (long), posted by antigua3 on February 5, 2009, at 9:34:50
Antigua,
That sounds like such a painful experience! I'm so sorry you had to go through it feeling that both relationships let you down. Understandably, it led to ruptures with both your pdoc and your T. That is a lot to deal with on top of trying to take care of your own painful feelings with what you were expressing to begin with and your unsatisfied needs for support.
I think I may see this a little differently than you do. So please hear me out OK? I care a lot about you and really only want to try to raise things that I hope may be helpful to think about.
First, let me say that I can really empathize with your feelings of abandonment (given my own issues in that department). It must have been horrible to not even get a response from either of them after you had such an intensely painful emotional outpouring that was so difficult to contain afterwards. And after 18 years of therapy, this is hardly your usual modus operandi!
so no matter what their reasons, it seems like they both failed you. I wonder what is up with your T, could she be going through some personal problems IRL and her mind is not on her work? You said she has seemed distracted for a couple of weeks. And it's always hard to know about your pdoc - he seems so unpredictable and your relationship with him has a very uneven quality to it from all the things you've written about it. Clearly he knew your emotional state when you left because he expressed concern as to whether you were OK as you were leaving. And you said he did express compassion in the session. I think you are right in identifying that the past experiences you brought up, coupled with the way he relates to you in therapy, really triggered very painful transference feelings related to your father. Those are the *worst* - they add enormous emotional impact to whatever bad situations we find ourselves in, and so pack quite a whallop. But they are what they are, that's one reason you are in therapy, and you were obviously in a lot of pain when you left the session.
So it's understandable that you would ask yourself - why didn't someone extend a hand, some comfort to you? It would have been nice for them to recognize the depths of your pain and how infrequently you reach that point. So you may also feel totally overlooked, since they should have both known this about you, which contributes to the hurt. That's how I would have felt, anyway, under the same set of circumstances.
OK, I'm meandering (as usual), but I feel it's really important to look closely at your interpretation of their behavior - namely the assumption that they both just want you to suck it up, basically, and handle it on your own. That is a harsh assumption, both about them as healers and is very dismissive of you. For such an approach to be therapeutic, it would be important that it be discussed and understood, if not at the time the incident occurred then soon afterwards. Abandonment as a learning experience is pretty poor technique, if you ask me. And what conclusion would any abandonment-sensitive person come to (no matter where they are in their therapy) other than concluding their dependency needs are excessive and should not be indulged under any circumstances? How punitive and shaming - anything but therapeutic. So even if it were a deliberate intervention on their parts (and I'm not so sure you're right about that), then it has failed therapeutically and simply reinforces a long-standing inner message you have been trying to rewrite for yourself. So my guess is that this was not the message they really would have wanted you to receive, if they had been thinking clearly about it. Of course T's are human, but there is no reason for their human failings to be transferred to you.
Antigua, I know you have been thinking for a while about when the time would be right to stop your therapy. It is very tempting to use a rupture as a reason because it would allow you to avoid pain associated with the rupture as well as termination. But I think that this may be exactly the wrong way to go. I think you should perhaps start by acknowledging to yourself that all of your feelings are completely legitimate as are your needs for comfort and understanding. You are not a crybaby - these are important things from our past and they really hurt. Then the next big thing is COMMUNICATION. This experience has left a significant rupture in two important relationships. We "pros" in therapy (lol) know what to do with ruptures, right? We know we are not supposed to walk away with hurt feelings and whatever negative assumptions we are left with. We've learned to bring our feelings up honestly and engage in meaningful dialogue with the other party. And if after you've done that and you still feel they are not doing a good job of rupture repair, then let them know that too and keep trying to work toward resolution. It is a great temptation to devalue a relationship that has disappointed you. But these are both emotionally important relationships in your life and despite disappointment, they must still hold great value for you. I think it is very likely that together you can repair the rupture in a way that leaves you feeling both connected and empowered. A good thing to take away from therapy no matter when you end it.So IMO you did not deserve a "handle it on your own" response (and I'm unconvinced that was really an explicit or implicit message from either of them). This is a shaming message that leaves you feeling bad about having legitimate emotional needs. A slightly different message, which maybe your pdoc was sending, is that he recognized your pain and assumed you have the outside resources to gain the support you needed, e.g. your T or your friends. And that really might be a compliment, although he may have underestimated how hard a transference-based emotional experience can be to deal with, for anyone. (You said transference is not really his thing). So if he miscalculated on your available resources, it is not because your needs were so unreasonably large that they couldn't be met appropriately. Which of course is the very thing that we fear hearing about ourselves. I feel strongly that this was nowhere near the case for you.
And my other message is the frequent Babble mantra - talk, talk, talk, and make working the ruptures through with each of them a focus of your next sessions. At the very least, this will provide you with some template the next time you think you are getting a devaluing message from someone (unfortunately we do tend to get these a lot, sigh), that will help you gain a sense of agency. Life has a tendency to be full of "inner messages" that get activated, and it is important to have a way to deal with them that preserves your self-esteem and leaves you in an observing frame of mind so you can take appropriate action without resorting to feeling bad about yourself. And please note that for me, this is very definitely a work in progress!
Hope this helps.
(((((((((antigua))))))))))))
Lucie
Posted by Dinah on February 6, 2009, at 13:04:49
In reply to Re: Testing our relationships with our Ts (long) » Dinah, posted by backseatdriver on February 5, 2009, at 15:25:18
:-)
Well, we're a matched set perhaps. I certainly have found his excellent example helps me to apologize the many times I find it necessary.
Posted by antigua3 on February 6, 2009, at 14:14:03
In reply to Re: Testing our relationships with our Ts (long) » backseatdriver, posted by Dinah on February 6, 2009, at 13:04:49
Thank you so very much for being such a supportive group of babblers and letting me have this very public temper tantrum. You let me write my way to some interesting conclusions and each one of you has given me important things to consider.
Lucie--I will respond after I've gathered my thoughts.
thank you all again,
antigua
Posted by antigua3 on February 6, 2009, at 14:56:53
In reply to Ruptures w/ our Ts ( interminably long response!) » antigua3, posted by lucie lu on February 6, 2009, at 10:36:13
I read this through several times to make sure I didn't miss anything.
You made me cry. Your insights were on mark, but also incredibly painful. You told me everything I would tell someone else, but it's so much easier to give advice than to take it.
Thank you so much.
Here's my thinking after reading:
1. The triad I've created between my pdoc, T and I is reflective of my childhood experiences. I'm aware of this and need to work on it. It's a problem I created by putting a male pdoc between my T and me.
2. I love my T and she's obviously going through something IRL that I'm not aware of and I need to talk to her about this. Despite what I said in anger, she would never leave me hanging intentionally unless something was wrong. Maybe I'm afraid to find out what's wrong, but I need to let her know how I'm feeling. We are too close to let these things disrupt what we've accomplished together over the years.
What's going on w/her is a direct trigger for me of abandoment by my mother at various stages of my childhood and early adulthood. I need to deal with this and running away isn't going to solve the problem.
3. My pdoc's actions and intentions are hard for me to read. I've made this doubly difficult with my pattern, as I've already said, of revealing intimate details, being ashamed, and then doing my hit and run thing. I need to break this pattern and work through it. But I still don't know if I can trust him. I thought I had expressed my needs very openly, but maybe I haven't. I've told him how important he is to me and the feelings he evokes, mostly shameful ones that are almost impossible for me to deal with right now because we have gone so deep.
I know he intentionally didn't contact me after my letter. Why? is the question that needs to be answered. Maybe he does think I'm stronger than I am, but I'm still that sad little girl who doesn't know were to turn for help. Afraid to trust, afraid of being hurt again.
I'm tired of being strong. I thought I was screaming for help, but I feel like I'm still not being heard. How do I explain to the little girl inside that she was ignored, as I feel like I'm being ignored now. How do I even soothe her when I don't have the answers. Are we being ignored because our communication isn't or wasn't clear? or because he really doesn't care? It's hard to find the truth here and I can't understand why he won't reach out to help. I can't help but think this is intentional, but I will try to talk to him about this. Such a sad little girl, and I'm at a loss as to how to help her.
I can't write anymore now, it's too tough. But thank you,
antigua
Posted by lucie lu on February 6, 2009, at 16:38:10
In reply to Re: Ruptures w/ our Ts ( interminably long response!) » lucie lu, posted by antigua3 on February 6, 2009, at 14:56:53
The last thing I wanted to do was make you cry, Antigua :( I was trying to validate your needs and help soften the perceived "deal with it" aspects. But I guess I am not surprised that to talk about these things made you cry because there was so much pain in your posts. I recently went through something very similar, and perhaps that was reverberating in me when I read and answered your post. But the last thing I wanted to do was to drive you further into the rabbit hole, and I feel that I did that. Not intentionally, but I did.
When I enter crisis mode these days, it is usually because (1) a number of buttons have been pushed IRL and (2) whoosh, a door opens and down I slide, like Alice falling down the rabbit hole. Then I am stuck in the past, and not in a great place. Sometimes when I feel overwhelmed with grief from old wounds as you are now it helps to simply say, if you can, I can't deal with this now and try to put it in a box. For me, I imagine my transference pit to be the basement of my house (life), and at times all I can do to stop looking at the mess is to turn off the lights and close the door firmly behind me. Not that this is easy to do nor am I always successful - it's just a strategy my T taught me to try to keep myself from getting further overwhelmed and spiralling downward.
You know, I've started thinking about this sort of crisis in myself as transference "storms." I had one a couple of weeks ago, and it felt pretty terrible. Something sets off some real, deep feelings, a strong connection between past and present and then - I'm off and running. The storm escalates because then everything IRL becomes more fodder for the storm, rather than grounding me in the present. Then I am lost. Eventually my activation levels finally drop because they can't keep up those high levels indefinitely. That is probably the sort of thing you've been reading about PTSD brains. We fall so easily into old grooves that are deep and well-worn from time.
For me I have found it helpful to try, when these things happen, to focus on dealing with the reality of the storm itself rather than its content. At least until I can things get back under control. Someone told me recently, and I think it is great advice at times like this, to try to stay out of my own head because it is triggering. And she was right on the mark. Somehow the temptation at times like these is to troll for insights - after all, you're right there - but I don't think it's the best thing to do when caught in a T-storm. With my most recent one, I actually did jot down just a few connections that occurred to me, similar to those you listed in your reply, for later examination. Then I tried to put it away for later. And then I took some Ativan. What you really need most at times like this is grounding in the present, and put the past on ice if you can. For now. You can always go back later under more controlled conditions and see what useful connections can be made. I am learning that you can have profound insights that are not born out of great pain. I always thought the opposite - no pain, no gain - but I don't think that's true as often as we think because it's hard to think straight when you're hurting.
I hope you can draw some support from Babble, where you can talk about these things with candor and get empathy and encouragement. We may be communicating in cyberspace but we are all real people typing on our laptops as we think of one another and what we'd like to say to each other.
Love,
Lucie
Posted by DAisym on February 6, 2009, at 20:02:00
In reply to Testing our relationships with our Ts (long), posted by antigua3 on February 5, 2009, at 9:34:50
I think you experienced (and still are) the "after." After the abuse there is this a period of time of intense hurt, shock, and pain. It is devasting - what just happened is devasting. You needed someone to help hold that pain, to comfort you and soothe you. But no one ever did - no matter what the signs and symptoms, and no matter how you communicated it. Aren't moms supposed to be magic and just know this stuff?
So then the shame and humiliation takes over. And we work hard to hide it all - to make it OK for everyone else around us. We reach for the false part of ourself - to mask all the ugliness inside. And I think pride comes in too - A kind of "fine, nobody cares? I'll handle it myself." But it such an awful, black, LONELY place. It is utterly unbearable to know what happened and have to pretend you are OK. Worse - the person we love and who would be our comfort, is the person who hurt us. We hate him; we love him. What does that say about us that we love him? How can we hate him? We must protect him, mom and everyone else from this ugliness.
The "after" is a horrible, painful place to revisit. It is a place in which you feel shattered into a million pieces. And touching it again, bringing those feelings to the surface makes you feel shattered again.
For me, it also brings me face to face with the reality of my theraputic relationship - how much that I, as an adult, must now do for myself. I feel angry at myself for needing my therapist and angry at him for allowing me to need him and really, really angry because while I'm allowed to need him, it is so limited and so restricted. I'm alone at 2am. It sometimes feels like a cruel joke - to feel and want and need this connection but to also know that it isn't enough to fill up the "after." It never will be.
I hate knowing that. But it is a stark truth. And it tortures me - wanting something to take up enough space inside myself so that it crowds out all the emptiness, knowing that it is too late - I'm an adult and I need to figure out how to be enough for myself.
I'm glad you can think more forgivingly of your therapist - she hasn't been herself for awhile now. That would make me anxious and it certainly does not undo leaving you alone with all this pain.
I don't know what to say about your pdoc - I think it is his style to not call unless you call and ask him to call back. Reading what you wrote I'm sure conveyed your pain but he likely did not see the "I need help with this right now" parts - he most likely thought it could (and should) wait until the next session. It may very well be that his message is that you need to handle it on your own in between sessions. I don't think you can leap to his not caring about you - although that is where I would go with it too, if it were me. He is probably thinking that his withholding contact is in your long-term best interest, however painful that is. I disagree with his methods of therapy but his consistency makes me want to say he cares, he just isn't warm and fuzzy.
I've been struggling in this amazingly painful place for nearly three weeks about wanting to be special to my therapist. It hurts tremendously to want this and not get it. It is humiliating to recognize the largeness of this need. And it brings to the surface for me all the reasons I'm not allowed to be special. Top of this list is that I'm tainted - and he knows it better than anyone. It strikes me that perhaps being special "enough" to get a call back, to receive comfort for your pain -- to still feel like you are in existance between sessions for your pdoc - may be in play here too.
Because being special is dangerous - and not being special is on par with anniliation. Both of which you've experience with your dad and mom. The war these feelings ignite is indescribably painful.
I guess I've written all of this as a way to say that you are not alone and you are special - a special friend and mom and babbler. That sad little girl should have been made to feel special in all the right ways from her dad and mom - and she shouldn't have been made to feel so rejected and abandoned now. But no matter what, she isn't alone anymore.
Take care,
Daisy
Posted by antigua3 on February 6, 2009, at 20:28:59
In reply to Re: Ruptures w/ our Ts ( interminably long response!) » antigua3, posted by lucie lu on February 6, 2009, at 16:38:10
Please understand that I don't think you did anything wrong. They were things that had to be said, and had been said by others but I had deflected them with sarcasm, denial and intelligence, which wasn't a very nice thing to do, and I'm very sorry.
Not a really great way to think about myself, but as it has been pointed out to me on many an occasion, my strength is my greatest weakness. Being vulnerable is not safe and so I fight like a mother lion does to protect her cubs--I'm fighting for the little girl w/o taking into consideration the help I can give her that doesn't have to be based on these false precepts.
But when it comes to dealing w/men, and authority figures in particular, I'm at a loss as to how to have a "proper" relationship. I really don't think I can ever break through that barrier and while I will make another try at it w/my pdoc, I don't see it turning out any different.
I have a cedar chest in my mind where if I'm lucky, I can stuff the feelings inside and open them again when I'm in a safe place. But the panic this time around has made this process impossible. I can't find my peaceful center, the one I've worked so hard to create and I'm just all over the place. The funny thing is that IRL, things are going well. The false front is holding up fine. But that's the great strength, again, of my denial. I don't think I can ever truly let me guard down to get the help I need.
Thank you for your advice. You are very kind,
antigua
Posted by rskontos on February 6, 2009, at 21:48:10
In reply to Re: Ruptures w/ our Ts ( interminably long response!) » lucie lu, posted by antigua3 on February 6, 2009, at 20:28:59
Antigua,
I want to share with you my thoughts especially after my hellish week and session, but i must collect them. I am still too jumbled in my head. I tried and deleted it. So for now,
please know I care and understand. I just can't organize my thoughts right now.
rsk
but I wanted to support you. ((((((antigua)))))))
Posted by antigua3 on February 6, 2009, at 22:04:37
In reply to Re: Testing - trigger » antigua3, posted by DAisym on February 6, 2009, at 20:02:00
"What does that say about us that we love him?"
This is the wound that was opened so deeply in the session w/my pdoc last time. What does it say about me that I have these feelings? It makes me feel as if I am as perverted as he was, and the shame is overwhelming. I've never felt this alignment with my father before in all my years of therapy. And to know that the man sitting across from me in the therapy room now knows that I still have these intense, complicated, inappropriate feelings for my father is more than I can bear.
Constant abandonments right and left, from both parents, made my life so unpredictable and left me believing that no one is to be trusted, because they all leave in the end. Even when they came back, I was never safe, because who know who would leave next and where I would end up?
I don't say this for anyone to feel sorry for me; I've just come to realize AGAIN, how screwed up I am, despite all my therapeutic work.
So,yes, this is another "after" hangover, as you describe it, and you describe it very well. It does feel like being shattered into a million pieces w/no map for putting it back together again unless I trust. And I just can't do that. Yes, I trusted my pdoc w/my most inner feelings, but I don't trust him, and with that attitude, I'm not going to succeed, I know that.
I think, also, that my pdoc wouldn't respond because he wouldn't want to reinforce the pattern we are working to break. And that hurts.
I'm sorry you're tortured about how much of your T you can really ever have, and how to find a place where it will be enough one day. I can see that coming for you. I see that path you're on, and I see you getting stronger every day, although there are lots of peaks and valleys along the way. I wish I could make it better for you,but you have a great T to help you through, and he IS there for you, you know that.
Pride does play an important role. Sometimes I think of it more as hubris, and even, for me, a tendency toward narcissistic behavior, developing an over confidence in myself that's not based in reality any more than my deep despair is.
I'm going to try and put this away for the weekend. I see my pdoc on Tuesday and my T on Wednesday; what a week it will be.
thanks for all your support, Daisy,
antigua
Posted by antigua3 on February 6, 2009, at 22:15:41
In reply to Re: Ruptures w/ our Ts ( interminably long respons, posted by rskontos on February 6, 2009, at 21:48:10
I'm always happy to hear what you have to say. And I appreciate your support,
antigua
Posted by DAisym on February 6, 2009, at 22:45:51
In reply to Re: Testing - trigger » DAisym, posted by antigua3 on February 6, 2009, at 22:04:37
I wish I didn't understand all of this so well but I hope it makes you feel less alone. Thank you for reaching back as I reached out to you.
And I just have to say - that this is highly likely, mostly a survivor issue. Less about transference, though that certainly plays into it, less about even therapy. This is pure, raw pain with no where to go and no one to help hold it. Old, old stuff - unhealed wounds, shame, confusion, love and betrayal and somatic elements too. It just F&&king sucks! Which is why when you go this deep, imo, you need frequent sessions.
Have a good, peaceful weekend.
Posted by rskontos on February 6, 2009, at 23:05:46
In reply to Re: Ruptures w/ our Ts ( interminably long respons » rskontos, posted by antigua3 on February 6, 2009, at 22:15:41
Thanks Antigua,
Well here goes, this is still new and not completely assimiliated so bear with me.
What I came to the conclusion is this: that due to our trauma and since we were children, our trust in ourselves is low, even in some cases non-existent. Our expectations is to be let down. We, I do it too, sometimes disclose to see if the person we are trying to trust is trustworthy. We have been burned. We know we can survive being burned again although we deeply desire the first-time real experience of true trust being returned we don't really think it exists. So we will take something out of our closet, lay it out there, to say see how bad I am, how damaged, how unlovable I really am, and then we sit back to watch that person fly away. We expect that to happen. We have a script in our head and maybe one or two even and so we don't trust ourselves to be lovable or likable or even worthy even that even someone we pay to be will really be there. We don't believe in ourselves either because ultimately we don't want to be hurt by others or by ourselves either.
We don't want to love ourselves, or parent ourselves or any of that because we don't know how. We weren't shown how. We aren't sure of ourselves enough to even trust ourselves to do that right. Most of the time people let us down. Sometimes even ourselves.
I think you got great advice. Don't walk away, because right now you'd be walking away from you more than anything else. You need to take care of this, you need to RISK this for you. You need to accept antigua for whom she really is.
Someone worthy.
The fact is both your T and your p-doc see better the progress you have made. You may not feel it yet, but they see it. Maybe that is why they don't understand the pain you are in right now. Maybe you are in your head so much that you only hear, little antigua's pain, you can't hear anything else but the same ole' recording that everything is out of reach, that they don't care, etc etc. It is so hard for us to see the progress we have made and not to fall back on our old recordings in our head when we feel shaky and not sure of what might be going on with the others we view as important to us, like your t and p-doc. You want so much to depend on them and yet not to. Ying and Yang pulling because the little one wants someone to be her good mommy but is afraid it doesn't really exists.
Your p-doc is doing what he thinks is best. It is up to you to tell him what part works and what doesn't. Just like your children tell you when you do things they don't like. You might as a parent listen you might not. He probably is not aware how shaky this left you. You need to share it. and perhaps he will compromise on this. Tell him what you need.
Ask your t what is going on. Only with talking will it start to get better. Too often we think we know what is going on when we are being more negative than we should, another thing my p-doc gently pointed out. Something I was incapable of hearing, and more crying ensued.
I realized this after my session-- A long time after, that I was refusing to risk anything in therapy. I wanted 100% guarantee and my p-doc gently suggested life just doesn't work that way. Now I did not leave it on a good note, I left crying all upset, refusing to hear him, and saying that is exactly why I don't trust the world. I had to replay his words over and over to start to understand what he was really saying.
I, using my dissociative ways, and all my parts, have survived but in the process I am not taking any risks in life. I am trying to be too safe. To the point where I am not really living I am stuck. I don't trust the world. Including him, most all people. And that means I will miss out of most things. I will missread alot of things. All kinds of relationships take risks. Even a mother and child relationships have risks. Your children can hurt you, but no mother really cares about that right? I mean you still have your children and try to do the best you can. But you still as a mother can and will hurt.
And so in that respect, a relationship with our t's will be risky. As it needs to be. And we need to expect it to be and know it will be ok.
I hope this made sense.
I hope it helps in your pain. take care my friend. I do understand.
rsk
there is so much more but this is already too long. forgive me
Posted by lucie lu on February 7, 2009, at 3:49:56
In reply to Re: Testing - trigger » antigua3, posted by DAisym on February 6, 2009, at 22:45:51
> And I just have to say - that this is highly likely, mostly a survivor issue. Less about transference, though that certainly plays into it, less about even therapy. This is pure, raw pain with no where to go and no one to help hold it. Old, old stuff - unhealed wounds, shame, confusion, love and betrayal and somatic elements too. It just F&&king sucks! Which is why when you go this deep, imo, you need frequent sessions.
I think Daisy may have misunderstood what I meant by transference in this context. As my T is always saying, that is the problem with using "technical" terms to describe non-technical things. And I always reply, but I have no other words to describe some of these things.
What I meant by transference here is the experience of being sent back into the past to not just remember, but to relive the traumatically painful feelings of the past. For me, it is a form of PTSD flashback. Since dissociation is one of my problems, barriers between past and present can fall away in a really tangible sense and I am psychologically propelled back into the past, with all of its trauma and accompanying feelings. Raw is a good way of putting it.
This happened to me less than two weeks ago. I was stressed for various reasons and then triggered by certain interactions within my family. What was going on in the present was so similar (albeit nowhere near as serious, probably not even harmful, if I look at it objectively) to my childhood experiences growing up, that I felt literally propelled into the past. I felt like I became that child again, with the full force of all those feelings. I even came, for a while, to be each of my parents in what might technically be called "identification with the aggressor" (another example of using a technical term to describe what I have no other words for). This then lead in a circular way to self-hate in that child, which only amplified her pain. So it became a chain-reaction that led to psychological meltdown. This was nothing I could reveal to anyone IRL, not family, friends, or work - who would understand? Except my T, who saw me 3x a week for the two weeks I was in this state and who supported me until this ran its course. (Although of course then I reacted some to the intensified feelings of closeness something like Daisy described.) Then we could finally talk about it. But when it was happening, talking about it only threw fuel into the fire. I guess this might be considered some form of psychotic break (another term!) but I am calling it a transference storm because it is essentially based on mistaking the past for the present. I apologize to anyone who took the term to refer to a more bloodless experience. The last thing I'd want is to seem dismissive of the experience of anyone who goes through or, like you, is going through this.
Because I went through my own experience so recently, and the pain is still raw in me, I identified strongly with your feelings. It would have been devastating if my T had not been available the past couple of weeks, adding abandonment to everything else. If I seemed to sidestep the painful aspects and focused more on all the emergency self-care and positive self-talk I could think of (and can only sometimes do for myself), that is why. Sometimes it feels like is a matter of survival, at least until the emotional storm passes.
But when you feel like that, you also feel devastatingly alone. It is well documented that one of the hallmark aspects of trauma is that no one comforted the traumatized child. So there is nothing as comforting and supportive as empathy from others who truly understand. Daisy also talked not only of trauma but of her intense feelings for her T. I know these feelings. It is like finding the loving parent or rescuer you longed so much for as a child, only to have them slip through your fingers: joy accompanied by aching grief. Sometimes I wonder how they really expect us to survive this, although I guess we somehow do in the end.
Lucie
Posted by rskontos on February 7, 2009, at 10:00:04
In reply to Re: Ruptures w/ our Ts ( interminably long respons, posted by rskontos on February 6, 2009, at 23:05:46
In re-reading the posts of everyone including my own, I came to another conclusion, I am not sure my post was helpful Antigua, so you can just forget it.
I am not sure if your progress has put you in the stage of therapy where you are thrown back to a stage where you need you t and p-doc to be more there for you and they don't see that. Or if you are at a point where you can stand on your own just more shaky like a toddler learning to walk, abeit on very shaky legs but still able to stand on own and talk small steps.
Maybe you are there, small steps wise, but wanted to land for a temporary period in someone's lap just for a small time to be cuddle not literally but figuratively.
In any case, if you know the answers, you really need to let them know and the risk I mean will be the telling them and taking the chance of those answers you indicated in another post you thought you might not be ready for.
Good luck sweetie, i know this is tough.
rsk
Posted by DAisym on February 7, 2009, at 13:00:27
In reply to Re: Testing - trigger » DAisym, posted by lucie lu on February 7, 2009, at 3:49:56
You know, Lucy, what I wrote really didn't have anything to do with what you wrote. I was thinking about how intensely Antigua was caught in focusing on the relationships, and the subsequent let down, and therapy overall. Not that all of that isn't a huge piece of this. But I wanted to call out the trigger - the enormous pain that broke free and took her down. And then why the abandonment felt so very bad. Because this has happened before - it happens to all of us. Our therapists go away for periods of time and we have to stand on our own.
And even as we try hard to unravel things, we all know that it is all tangled up - the past, the present, our relationships with others as well as our self- so we work hard to figure it out but it morphs and changes.
I've said it many, many times - it would be so great to figure out that ONE THING that we could fix which would make the pain go away. But as much as I wish it, I'm well aware that it is unbelievably complicated.
There are no right or wrongs here. I think it is just great and amazing that there is so much knowledge and support to share.
So please, I hope you don't think I was correcting or criticizing you. I sincerely wasn't.
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