![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by shrinking violet on May 20, 2005, at 16:11:29
......i did something to her, that's for sure. My (now ex-) t.
I'm in the process of seeing if i can be admitted to a residential treatment facility in a nearby state. It'll be 2-3 more weeks until i find out for sure. In the meantime, my medical doc and my psych (both part of my treatment team at school, both worked closely with my t) are staying in touch with me to find out what happens, to make sure i'm holding up okay and not getting worse, etc in the interim. Technically, they are on vacation for summer, since Health Services closes for the summer, yet they are going to try to stay in some contact with me. My nutritionist, also works for Health Services and also off for the summer although she said she'd be around every couple of weeks or so, said i could email her, keep in touch, stop by and see her if i needed anything, etc. They're all pretty "excited" about my finally realizing i need more intense treatment. I think it took losing my support, which i seemed to take for granted when i had them (and which i feel horribly about.....) to jar me and make me realize that, yeah, i'm in trouble now. My life is full of ironies.
My t though.....A huge part of my treatment, of course, a huge supporter of me in a lot of ways. She worked tirelessly all of this time, trying to get me to agree to inpatient treatment to begin with. And she does work in the summer. But, my medical doc and psych aren't even mentioning her, at all, not even trying to involve her. So I feel like she must have told them something, for them to almost glaringly ignore her existence. It's almost as if I never met her. I feel like i did something to make her cut me off so abruptly, for her not to feel like she would want to be part of this process (finally!), what we've been sort of working toward for a couple of years now. I feel like i must have done somethhing......Either I wore her out, or she felt that i pushed the relationship too far....maybe she thought i was becoming too close and personal and it made her uncomfortable? Again, ironic, as I always tried to be careful to NOT do that. I always tried to say things to her she's already said to me. Why is it okay for her to say that I'm in her heart, and that she cares for me, and that I mean a great deal to her, but when I try to show it or say it in my way, it's wrong? I very rarely show people how I feel about them (I very rarely feel anything deep or meaningful toward anyone anyway), but when I do, I feel like they can't handle it. Why can't I care for people in the right way? What is it about me that scares everyone off? :-(
Maybe i took it too literally. I mean, actions speak louder than words, they say. So, where is she now? If she cares so much, blah blah, why is she turning on me when, finally, things might be starting to turn around? I thought she'd at least want to be a part of that in some way. And she is, I mean, I feel like she's the one who put this little flame in me, the one that seems to be guiding me now....I wish I had told her that. I wish I had felt it before, so I could have told her. Maybe she thinks she has nothing to offer me as a T?
If there were a "worst client in the world" award, I'd win every year.
I don't know....but *something* happened. Something. And it feels really bad, because I could use her support right now, and I wish I knew how she was feeling b/c maybe we could talk it out and fix it. But, ha, another irony, because when I had her support and those chances, I took it for granted or let them slip by.
Whatever it is I did, I'm so so so so sorry. I wish everything could have happened differently, I wish I could have "come around" a lot sooner...I wish and regret so many things. But most of all, I'm so sorry for doing this to her, for doing whatever i did to make her disappear.
Posted by shrinking violet on May 20, 2005, at 16:17:10
In reply to i wore her out, posted by shrinking violet on May 20, 2005, at 16:11:29
I just remembered....
.....i told her i loved her. I made her an audio cd, about a half hour of my blatherings, thanking her for things, etc, things I would have wanted her to know but knew I could never bring myself to say in person. At the end, I told her I'd miss her and that I loved her. And the card I gave her at our last session, I signed it "love."
Maybe that was it? The final straw.....?
:-(
Stupid, I shouldn't have done that. I've never said it to anyone before (well, I've said it back to the handful of people who have said it to me, but usually just to be polite, and I've NEVER said it first to anyone). I'll never make that mistake again, certainly.
Something about me, there's somethiing...People can give to me but....they can't take it. It's like what I give them is rotten or spoiled in some way.
Posted by pinkeye on May 20, 2005, at 16:51:51
In reply to maybe it was because i told her...., posted by shrinking violet on May 20, 2005, at 16:17:10
My heart goes out to you.. as always.
I wish I can take care of you, and not make you hurt, and make things allright with your T.
Take Care SV.
Don't hurt so much.. It hurts all of us to see you hurting so much. But do went here all you want.. and we do care about you.
I know the whole thing looks really really awful now. I have still not recovered completely from losing my ex T. But after 4 months, the pain has definitely eased a lot. And I know now, that it had to happen. I was hurting too much with him before the termination also. I had huge transference, and was just hurting myself.. And whatever he did, I was hurting. if he replied, I would hurt myself that he wasn't more warm and more affectionate. If he didn't reply, I would hurt that he ignored me.. If he was affectionate, I would hurt myself for making him like me..and wonderign what am I doing with a married guy.. and when I wrote I used to feel guilty about my husband.. There were all sorts of difficulties.
Now I realize, that it was just my destiny.. to go through that kind of intense attachment to a person, and to lose the person - actually now I feel that losing him was a turning point .. It made me probe deeper. It has revealed several things about myself, which I was not aware of myself before. And I have used that hurt and loss to grow.
I still wish I hadn't lost contact so abruptly, and that I had some way of keeping up minimal contact, but the point is, you can use this to grow yourself. And not let yourself go down. The point of failing is not to go down forever.. It is to pick yourself up and emerge a stronger person.
I hope that you do it. for your sake and for the sake of your T. That is what I tell myself when I feel bad - I know whatever it was, howmuchever I got hurt, I know my ex T meant extremely well.. he never would have wanted me to hurt. And I know in he did what he thought was the right thing to do. That is why I try not to hold grudge against him and not get angry with him. Maybe you can do something like that.
Posted by pegasus on May 20, 2005, at 16:57:07
In reply to maybe it was because i told her...., posted by shrinking violet on May 20, 2005, at 16:17:10
Hi violet,
I'm so sorry you're going through all of this. Although I'm glad to hear you're trying for the residential treatment facility. I hope it ends up being really helpful for you.
What strikes me about what you write about your T is that you're assuming a lot of blame for acts that seem perfectly reasonable to me. I think it's sweet that you made that CD for your ex-T, and absolutely normal that you told her you love her. That happens all the time in therapy! We've had threads about it here, and lots of people said they'd told their therapists the same thing. It's natural and understandable to feel that way about someone who makes you feel safe, and is trying to help you.
It really is a shame that she's not been involved in this move of yours to more intense treatment. And yet, you don't really know why. You're assuming it's because you did something wrong. But it seems at least as likely to me that it's something to do with her view about good boundaries, or the rules of her employer or something along those lines. Lots of therapists don't like to have any contact after termination (which personally I don't think is the best way to do things, but it is what is usually taught in counseling programs). I guess the idea is that if you still have contact with your ex-T then you won't seek current therapy, because you'll still be more comfortable in that old relationship.
Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that I'm thinking about you lots lately, and have been following your situation. I think it sounds like you've really tried hard in therapy, and that it's just especially difficult for you, so you often don't acccomplish what you'd like to or think you should. And that you really give yourself a hard time about that, when I'm sure it's not simply flaws in yourself that cause these difficulties - you're obviously struggling mightily. Your story and situation really move me, and I sincerely wish you the very best in your new treatment.
pegasus
Posted by Tamar on May 20, 2005, at 17:38:24
In reply to maybe it was because i told her...., posted by shrinking violet on May 20, 2005, at 16:17:10
Hey SV,
I don't think I can add anything much to what Pegasus said; she said pretty much what I wanted to say.
I'm sure your T was touched and happy to hear that you love her. When you said that what you give is rotten or spoiled in some way... that sounded so sad. It sounded as if you really loathe yourself. And you don't deserve that.
I'm thinking about you. I hope things start to get easier for you.
Tamar
Posted by Jazzed on May 20, 2005, at 18:10:01
In reply to i wore her out, posted by shrinking violet on May 20, 2005, at 16:11:29
> ......i did something to her, that's for sure. My (now ex-) t.
>
> I'm in the process of seeing if i can be admitted to a residential treatment facility in a nearby state. It'll be 2-3 more weeks until i find out for sure. In the meantime, my medical doc and my psych (both part of my treatment team at school, both worked closely with my t) are staying in touch with me to find out what happens, to make sure i'm holding up okay and not getting worse, etc in the interim. Technically, they are on vacation for summer, since Health Services closes for the summer, yet they are going to try to stay in some contact with me. My nutritionist, also works for Health Services and also off for the summer although she said she'd be around every couple of weeks or so, said i could email her, keep in touch, stop by and see her if i needed anything, etc. They're all pretty "excited" about my finally realizing i need more intense treatment. I think it took losing my support, which i seemed to take for granted when i had them (and which i feel horribly about.....) to jar me and make me realize that, yeah, i'm in trouble now. My life is full of ironies.
>
> My t though.....A huge part of my treatment, of course, a huge supporter of me in a lot of ways. She worked tirelessly all of this time, trying to get me to agree to inpatient treatment to begin with. And she does work in the summer. But, my medical doc and psych aren't even mentioning her, at all, not even trying to involve her. So I feel like she must have told them something, for them to almost glaringly ignore her existence. It's almost as if I never met her. I feel like i did something to make her cut me off so abruptly, for her not to feel like she would want to be part of this process (finally!), what we've been sort of working toward for a couple of years now. I feel like i must have done somethhing......Either I wore her out, or she felt that i pushed the relationship too far....maybe she thought i was becoming too close and personal and it made her uncomfortable? Again, ironic, as I always tried to be careful to NOT do that. I always tried to say things to her she's already said to me. Why is it okay for her to say that I'm in her heart, and that she cares for me, and that I mean a great deal to her, but when I try to show it or say it in my way, it's wrong? I very rarely show people how I feel about them (I very rarely feel anything deep or meaningful toward anyone anyway), but when I do, I feel like they can't handle it. Why can't I care for people in the right way? What is it about me that scares everyone off? :-(
>
> Maybe i took it too literally. I mean, actions speak louder than words, they say. So, where is she now? If she cares so much, blah blah, why is she turning on me when, finally, things might be starting to turn around? I thought she'd at least want to be a part of that in some way. And she is, I mean, I feel like she's the one who put this little flame in me, the one that seems to be guiding me now....I wish I had told her that. I wish I had felt it before, so I could have told her. Maybe she thinks she has nothing to offer me as a T?
>
> If there were a "worst client in the world" award, I'd win every year.
>
> I don't know....but *something* happened. Something. And it feels really bad, because I could use her support right now, and I wish I knew how she was feeling b/c maybe we could talk it out and fix it. But, ha, another irony, because when I had her support and those chances, I took it for granted or let them slip by.
>
> Whatever it is I did, I'm so so so so sorry. I wish everything could have happened differently, I wish I could have "come around" a lot sooner...I wish and regret so many things. But most of all, I'm so sorry for doing this to her, for doing whatever i did to make her disappear.HI Shrinking,
I'm so sorry that you're T reacted the way she did. IF indeed she has withdrawn because of the reasons you stated then that isn't very professional, but I've been reading all the books available on therapy and transference/countertransference from Amazon, and I think there could be some other things going on. I think sometimes if you're going into a facility, the T pulls back to allow you to make a better transition. OR, the T might have felt overwhelmed by your feelings, or maybe by her own. I think that if you would send her a letter and put :
"My t though.....A huge part of my treatment, of course, a huge supporter of me in a lot of ways. She worked tirelessly all of this time, trying to get me to agree to inpatient treatment to begin with. And she does work in the summer. But, my medical doc and psych aren't even mentioning her, at all, not even trying to involve her. So I feel like she must have told them something, for them to almost glaringly ignore her existence. It's almost as if I never met her. I feel like i did something to make her cut me off so abruptly, for her not to feel like she would want to be part of this process (finally!), what we've been sort of working toward for a couple of years now. I feel like i must have done somethhing......Either I wore her out, or she felt that i pushed the relationship too far....maybe she thought i was becoming too close and personal and it made her uncomfortable? Again, ironic, as I always tried to be careful to NOT do that. I always tried to say things to her she's already said to me. Why is it okay for her to say that I'm in her heart, and that she cares for me, and that I mean a great deal to her, but when I try to show it or say it in my way, it's wrong? I very rarely show people how I feel about them (I very rarely feel anything deep or meaningful toward anyone anyway), but when I do, I feel like they can't handle it. Why can't I care for people in the right way? What is it about me that scares everyone off? :-("
in it, then how could she possibly not respond to you. Maybe she has no idea how this is effecting you.
I hope the best for you. Keep us posted.
Jazzed
Posted by shrinking violet on May 20, 2005, at 19:37:25
In reply to I so wish you would have the strength to move past » shrinking violet, posted by pinkeye on May 20, 2005, at 16:51:51
> My heart goes out to you.. as always.
>
> I wish I can take care of you, and not make you hurt, and make things allright with your T.---Thank you so much pinkeye. ...I wish you could too.
>>" Now I realize, that it was just my destiny.. to go through that kind of intense attachment to a person, and to lose the person - actually now I feel that losing him was a turning point .. It made me probe deeper. It has revealed several things about myself, which I was not aware of myself before. And I have used that hurt and loss to grow."--I'm glad something good has come of your experience. I have lost people before, though....too many. In fact, it's a fairly natural occurrence for me. But this is different. I think especially b/c I feel like there's so much we both hid (and hid behind) during the last session, and that there's so much we never discussed. There are so many more questions than answers right now. Do you know when you walk in the ocean, and stir up all of the sand and weeds and stuff that was settled at the bottom? That's what this feels like.
>> "I still wish I hadn't lost contact so abruptly, and that I had some way of keeping up minimal contact, but the point is, you can use this to grow yourself. And not let yourself go down. The point of failing is not to go down forever.. It is to pick yourself up and emerge a stronger person."--I know. I'm just not sure I'm capable of that. And how many of these "fallings" does it take before you finally just break to pieces? I'm not sure I can take much more. I've had 3 decades of crap to deal with and get over even before I met my T.
I know she's there. I know where she is. The other night I left a rather desperate message on her voicemail. She DID call me back. I know she didn't have to. She even asked me to call her later that day but I didn't....I couldn't chance that she'd close the doors again. At least now, I feel like they're somewhat open. I know I can visit her once in a while, I know I can write. It just isn't the same....But I undestand it. What feels worse right now, I think, are the complexities and layers and things that are there but we never acknowledged or discussed, and the regrets I have, looking back, and how badly I feel about how hard I must have made things for her. She's always told me that I needed to get over to her side (or let her over to mine) so we can work together, and how powerful that could be. I never figured out what she meant, or how to do it, or even let myself try. But now I think I understand it a little more, and I'm realizing what we missed out on, how much more it could have been (at least therapy-wise).
>>"I hope that you do it. for your sake and for the sake of your T. That is what I tell myself when I feel bad - I know whatever it was, howmuchever I got hurt, I know my ex T meant extremely well.. he never would have wanted me to hurt. And I know in he did what he thought was the right thing to do. That is why I try not to hold grudge against him and not get angry with him. Maybe you can do something like that."--I know, I know (hope) that she still feels some caring and specialness toward me. I know that this past week she did talk to my psych, even though my psych didn't mention it. I know she's probably there "behind the scenes," but just isn't letting me see that she's involved. Maybe it's a "tough love" type of thing. Maybe someday we'll look back on this together. I hope so.
Thank you.
Posted by shrinking violet on May 20, 2005, at 19:45:08
In reply to Re: maybe it was because i told her...., posted by pegasus on May 20, 2005, at 16:57:07
>> "I'm so sorry you're going through all of this. Although I'm glad to hear you're trying for the residential treatment facility. I hope it ends up being really helpful for you."
---Thank you pegasus, that's very sweet of you. I hope it works out in whatever way it's supposed to.
>>" What strikes me about what you write about your T is that you're assuming a lot of blame for acts that seem perfectly reasonable to me. I think it's sweet that you made that CD for your ex-T, and absolutely normal that you told her you love her. That happens all the time in therapy! We've had threads about it here, and lots of people said they'd told their therapists the same thing. It's natural and understandable to feel that way about someone who makes you feel safe, and is trying to help you."--Thank you. But maybe *she* didn't think so? She does mostly short-term therapy with students....The way I understood it is that she doesn't see the same client for long-term work very often. So maybe my saying that was odd to her. How big of a jump is it from saying you deeply care about someone, to loving them? She's said and shown the former to me....But maybe the latter, for her, is reserved for more personal relationships? I don't know....I can only guess, which is the hardest part right now. And when I had the chance to ask her, I was too afraid to.
>> "I guess the idea is that if you still have contact with your ex-T then you won't seek current therapy, because you'll still be more comfortable in that old relationship."--I know, that does make some sense. I did call her the other night, left a message, and she did call me back. I know I can write to her. I know I can probably pop up and visit her once in a great while. I know she's there. I know she'll help me transition to a new T if I wanted her to (if that offer still stands). I know/hope she's involved in a "behind the scenes" sort of way right now. Maybe it's a "tough love" sort of thing? I hope so. Still, without knowing for sure, I blame myself. Because I know I made her work harder than I should have, I know that working with me hasn't been "lightweight" for her....And I just wish I could go back and fix all of that. And our relationship was very complex, and I feel like we still have a lot of things to discuss and figure out.
>> "Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that I'm thinking about you lots lately, and have been following your situation. I think it sounds like you've really tried hard in therapy, and that it's just especially difficult for you, so you often don't acccomplish what you'd like to or think you should. And that you really give yourself a hard time about that, when I'm sure it's not simply flaws in yourself that cause these difficulties - you're obviously struggling mightily. Your story and situation really move me, and I sincerely wish you the very best in your new treatment."
--That's very sweet of you, thank you. :-)Take care,
sv
Posted by shrinking violet on May 20, 2005, at 19:47:18
In reply to Re: maybe it was because i told her.... » shrinking violet, posted by Tamar on May 20, 2005, at 17:38:24
>> "I'm sure your T was touched and happy to hear that you love her. When you said that what you give is rotten or spoiled in some way... that sounded so sad. It sounded as if you really loathe yourself. And you don't deserve that."
---Thank you, Tamar. I'm not sure what I deserve right now. I hope my T was touched too, even if she didn't show it. I hate thinking one of my last actions toward her would have overwhelmed her and overstepped bounds.
>>" I'm thinking about you. I hope things start to get easier for you."--Thank you. :-)
Take care,
sv
Posted by shrinking violet on May 20, 2005, at 19:55:14
In reply to Re: i wore her out » shrinking violet, posted by Jazzed on May 20, 2005, at 18:10:01
>>" I'm so sorry that you're T reacted the way she did. IF indeed she has withdrawn because of the reasons you stated then that isn't very professional, but I've been reading all the books available on therapy and transference/countertransference from Amazon, and I think there could be some other things going on. I think sometimes if you're going into a facility, the T pulls back to allow you to make a better transition. OR, the T might have felt overwhelmed by your feelings, or maybe by her own."
--Hi Jazzed . Thank you. I hope you're right....I'm sure there must be some reasoning for what's going on, given everything we've gone through together. I just hope it's a good and valid reason, and nothing "wrong" that I might have done.
>>"I think that if you would send her a letter...."--You know, I'm thinking of sending her a card and a short note telling her how things turn out (once I find out whether or not I get into this place, and what the plans are) and how, even though she wasn't physically here, how much a part of this she has been, and how I'm going to bring her with me, etc, and tell her I hope that I didn't overwhelm her or do/say anythiing I shouldn't have, etc. I've been trying to put myself in her place: how would I feel if a client I've worked with for almost 2 years, two years of struggling and resistance and tireless effort and tears and hugs and caring, that client accepts help only after she has left treatment with me? I don't think I'd feel very good. I don't think she realizes how much a part and a cause of this whole process she has been, and maybe I needed her to let me go so I could find my own way, or at least make the effort. I hope to tell her soon. And I hope our paths meet again.....I can't believe that God (or Fate, or the Universe) would have led me to HER, and caused us to go through everything we have together, and the deep way we feel about each other, only to have it end forever this way. I can't believe that....There has to be more to this story than that. Maybe this is just an intermission.....
Thank you, I appreciate your thoughts.
sv
Posted by pinkeye on May 20, 2005, at 20:35:35
In reply to Re: i wore her out » Jazzed, posted by shrinking violet on May 20, 2005, at 19:55:14
Think of it this way when you are hurting her.. We really grow up and emerge into full blown personalities only when we leave our homes and come away from our parents.
That does not mean what you learnt from your parents is irrelevant or they are ineffective. It is like as long as you are wearing a life jacket, you really don't know if you learnt to swim fully.. once the life jacket comes off, and then you swim well and not sink, then you realize that you have learnt swimming well.
I think that is what you are doing now. Now that the life jacket is gone, you are swimming, and struggling to stay afloat and keep all that you learnt when you had the life jacket.
She is goign to be always with you - in all that she taught you. And she would know that you will survive - that she has given you the basic framework or living skills. And that you will survive.
Posted by shrinking violet on May 21, 2005, at 12:07:41
In reply to Re: i wore her out » shrinking violet, posted by Jazzed on May 20, 2005, at 18:10:01
So i wake up this morning to find that I got a paper back from one of my professors (A-), and a certified mail envelope which I knew it's from my T, as she said she was going to send me a list of referrals. She sent me a typewritten note urging me to reconsider IP (which was a bit odd, b/c the letter is dated May 19, which was Thursday, and I had spoken to her the day before, on Wed and she knew I was thinking of getting in, so I'm not sure why the discrepancy there, but anyway....) and gave me some names of T's that she thinks would be helpful, and for me to call her if she can help with anything. All very professional but not cold, and I was expecting it as she told me she would send me a list.
Then she included a card and she thanked me for my gifts, and she said "It was evident our time together meant a great deal to you."
Um, to ME?! Just to me?! I dont know what kind of game she's playing here, I really dont. How can you be two different people with someone? The things she'd say to me, the things we'd share.....And she acts like it didnt mean anything. Maybe it didnt, maybe she was pulling some T trick and I fell for it good. She told me she couldn't turn her caring "on and off," well, she's doing a darn good job right now. Now if I send her a card or a letter calling her on this stuff, it's just going to look like I'm trying to persue a friendship or something, and it might make her tell me to leave her alone. :-( What do I do? How can I just forget and pretend, the way she is? Or maybe it was all in my head, maybe I imagined the whole thing. Or maybe I should just try to forget about it all, regardless. But I can't/won't let her slide this under the rug, I won't. If she wants to, fine. But I need to discuss this with her, even if it's a one-way dialogue in a letter, even if I never hear from her.....But could I handle that? I don't know.
I just need an acknowledgement form her, at least. For her to say, "yes, we do care deeply for one another, we have a special connection, and it's sad and tragic that we aren't able to explore that more and it had to end the way it did just b/c of the way we met."
And as much as I keep wondering if it's me, if I imagined all of this, or took it too far, I know I didn't. You don't tell a client that she's "in your heart" if she means nothing more than any other client might. When we listened to the CD I made her, she came over and hugged me, and we touched foreheads and, without speaking, found each other's hand and squeezed them together....There are probably a hundred more little interactions like that I could list if I needed to; You don't find that kind of connection with someone every day.
Or do you? I don't know.....I DON'T KNOW.
Why is she doing this? :-(
I won't cry, I wont......
Posted by pegasus on May 21, 2005, at 12:23:54
In reply to she sent me a card.....maybe I imagined it all?, posted by shrinking violet on May 21, 2005, at 12:07:41
Oh, wow, SV, I think you could be reading too much into her statement. My guess is that she'd be pretty upset to know that you interpret her statement as meaning that your time with her didn't mean anything to her. When I first read what she'd written, I thought it was sweet. The way I interpreted it was that she was commenting on the content of your CD (one of the gifts you gave her that she was thanking you for?), in which you talked about your feelings about her and your therapy. So, she wanted you to know that she understood what you were communicating. It sounded like a supportive message to me.
And, yeah, it would have been easier for you if she'd repeated that she cared about you a lot. Too bad she didn't do that. It sounds like you really would have benefited from her saying it again in this card. And yet, she did say it to you before. Again I think you might be reading more than is actually there. I mean, you might not, but you might. I wouldn't have drawn the same conclusions that you drew from that card, and I just wanted to let you know that, so you can consider that maybe it's not as bad as you think right now.
hugs
pegasus
Posted by Dinah on May 21, 2005, at 12:30:12
In reply to she sent me a card.....maybe I imagined it all?, posted by shrinking violet on May 21, 2005, at 12:07:41
I agree with Pegasus. All you can really conclude is that she is validating how important therapy was to you. I find it very important for my therapist to do that, so I would have been happy she recognized it.
There is nothing in there that states that it wasn't important to her.
Her actions, even now, seem to state that you are important to her.
It's easy to read something into what wasn't said. I know I've done it a million times. But I make a lot of mistakes when I do that.
Posted by shrinking violet on May 21, 2005, at 12:42:22
In reply to Re: she sent me a card.....maybe I imagined it all, posted by pegasus on May 21, 2005, at 12:23:54
Thank you both. Since you both agree, I'm going to respond to both of you here, if that's all right.
I know, I know I do tend to take things the wrong way, interpret things negatively, etc. I did that with my T a lot, and she always tried to get me to ASK her first, before assuming to know what she was thinking or feeling because 99.7% of the time I was wrong (although I can't exactly ask her now, can I? lol).
I don't think it's *just* this letter/card though. It's everything piled up....the way she shut down last session, the emails/letters I sent her that she ignored (usually ones discussing our relationship in some way), the inconsistent way she'd react.....Not to say I didn't do the same. Not to say that I could have pushed a dialogue about these things when I had the chance, but I don't think I was ready then. I was too afraid of what she'd say, how she'd react, afraid that she'd push me away all together or terminate me earlier. But now I feel like there's this whole other part that we never acknowledged, that we never discussed, and I NEED to, I need to at least know that she feels it too, even if she won't or can't take it any further than that. But at the same time, I don't want to sound desperate or like I'm trying to find an excuse to hang onto her. I'm really not...This is genuinely disturbing me, a large part of me and our time together that isn't settled, that I can't quite close the door until I figure this part out. I just don't want open a Pandora's box, either.
Thank you again,
sv
Posted by gardenergirl on May 21, 2005, at 12:49:23
In reply to WE really grow up only when we leave our parents » shrinking violet, posted by pinkeye on May 20, 2005, at 20:35:35
Great metaphor, pinkeye!
gg
> Think of it this way when you are hurting her.. We really grow up and emerge into full blown personalities only when we leave our homes and come away from our parents.
>
> That does not mean what you learnt from your parents is irrelevant or they are ineffective. It is like as long as you are wearing a life jacket, you really don't know if you learnt to swim fully.. once the life jacket comes off, and then you swim well and not sink, then you realize that you have learnt swimming well.
>
> I think that is what you are doing now. Now that the life jacket is gone, you are swimming, and struggling to stay afloat and keep all that you learnt when you had the life jacket.
>
> She is goign to be always with you - in all that she taught you. And she would know that you will survive - that she has given you the basic framework or living skills. And that you will survive.
>
Posted by gardenergirl on May 21, 2005, at 12:57:18
In reply to re pegasus, dinah, posted by shrinking violet on May 21, 2005, at 12:42:22
SV,
I'm glad your T at least acknowledged your feelings about therapy. From the entire history you have shared on here, I keep thinking that perhaps your T's strong suit is NOT this kind of therapy and this kind of therapy relationship. You mentioend that she is not used to working with long-term clients. I think that she has been finding her way with you, on how to work with long term clients. And she has made mistakes. I think she's tried different ways of being, from being close to backing off. She seems like she has been struggling to do what's "right", and perhaps it's been a learning process for her. Unfortunately, this learning process seems to have been very confusing and to really hurt you.I think it's very likely she will never ever forget you and the relationship you shared. I would suspect she learned as much from you as you did from her. That kind of experience is very important to a T. At least from my point of view...I've had clietns I learned a great deal from, and they have a special place in my "T heart" among all of my clients, past and present.
I am so glad you are still talking to folks about this and processing your feelings. And I'm glad you are continuing to explore IP.
(((((SV))))))
gg
Posted by shrinking violet on May 21, 2005, at 13:12:13
In reply to Re: re pegasus, dinah » shrinking violet, posted by gardenergirl on May 21, 2005, at 12:57:18
Hi gg,
So then that's all it probably was:
>>"I think that she has been finding her way with you, on how to work with long term clients. And she has made mistakes. I think she's tried different ways of being, from being close to backing off. She seems like she has been struggling to do what's "right", and perhaps it's been a learning process for her. Unfortunately, this learning process seems to have been very confusing and to really hurt you."--So it was just a "T thing." Nothing deeper than that. So I'm just silly and stupid in thinking there was more to it? What do you think GG, seriously? I know it's hard to judge just from my one-sided accounts here, but...is there ANY validation to what I'm feeling? I think in a recent post you responded that she was putting up defenses and hiding behind the therapy to hide how she might really feel, but now you suggest she was just trying different tactics.....Which is it? I know it's possible for a T and client to have a deeper underlying feeling for each other regardless of the therapy alliance (I keep thinking of LG04 and her T), but it's rare. I just wish I knew what my T truly thinks and feels, b/c either way, I'd know. She'd either acknowledge it and I would know I'm not crazy, or she would probably say something similar to what you just did, and I'd have to accept it. But again, how could I be sure what she would tell me would even be true?
I can't believe people actually voluntarily enter therapy, I really don't (no offense or anything...).
Thanks for your input gg.
The "trying not to cry" thing isn't working anymore.... :-(
Posted by gardenergirl on May 21, 2005, at 14:35:47
In reply to Re: » gardenergirl, posted by shrinking violet on May 21, 2005, at 13:12:13
SV,
I was commenting on just one aspect of your therapy...the inconsistency as far as sometimes she seems really close and it's apparent how she feels and other times she seems pulled back. I'm sorry it sounded like I was talking about your relationship as a whole.I do think there is a real relationship between therapists and clients. And there are real feelings, that's for certain. It just sounded to me like she shared her real feelings more often at first, and later did not. I was speculating as to why that might be and commenting on how it would of course seem confusing to you.
And trying not to cry...oh yes. I do that too. And then it just gets to be too much, and the tears flow. I hope they bring some sense of relief versus making things feel worse.
gg
Posted by shrinking violet on May 21, 2005, at 15:29:09
In reply to Re:sorry to offend » shrinking violet, posted by gardenergirl on May 21, 2005, at 14:35:47
no you didn't offend. I'm sorry I'm beating this thing to death.
>> And trying not to cry...oh yes. I do that too. And then it just gets to be too much, and the tears flow. I hope they bring some sense of relief versus making things feel worse.
--Thank you. They aren't helping at all....In fact, they seem to make the hurt worse. I'm not sure why....
Maybe b/c I'm alone with them, and I don't have anyone to reach out to anymore. And the one person I need most right now has removed herself, for reasons I'm not even quite clear of.
I'm not sure what I want either, anymore. I'm rethinking everything....I don't think the effort would be worth it.
And I can't....I don't want to keep going through this. I can't live as if I never met her. I can't face never seeing her again. I can't live knowing I could have done it differently, that it could have been better, even the ending. I can't chance that it would be like before: seemingly, I'd feel better, I'd have more energy, etc. But it would just be the food, the meds.....Underneath, I'd still be hurting, I'd still feel like I don't belong here, I'd still be figuring out why I'm getting up in the morning, what it means...I'll only have a smile pasted on my face while I'm doing it, that would be the only difference. Somehow, I think that's worse.And I can't/won't get into another T situation. Andn of course others would push for it, I would "need" it. Why go through xx number of weeks in a residential place, and then come out and not build a support of treatment people? But I couldn't....I couldn't do this again...So why even do any of it.
This hurts way too much....
Posted by Pfinstegg on May 22, 2005, at 0:44:11
In reply to i wore her out, posted by shrinking violet on May 20, 2005, at 16:11:29
I think nearly every one of the students here who has had university-sponsored therapy just gets into such a tough situation; it IS time-limited, and can't go on when you are no longer a student. You are forced by these circumstances to abruptly rupture your attachment to your therapist, even when it is obviously in the process of growing, and is becoming more and more important to you. For those of us who are older, it seems extremely harsh, because we are all at some point in the process of allowing our attachments to our own therapists to deepen, and to involve more and more vulnerability and trust. It's only after a number of years (maybe five at a minimum) that people on these boards begin to realize that they have grown and accomplished at least some of the things they wanted to. Then termination becomes a possibility, but it, too is very hard- and it's very gradual.
But for students, there is inevitably this very abrupt stopping. It sounds as though you were reaching the point of really trusting your therapist- with some ups and downs, for sure- and that you really wanted to let her know how important she-and the process of therapy- had become to you. In fact, you did find a lot of ways to express that. I think your therapist did have a difficult time, when she realized the depth of feeling you had developed. She knew there wasn't any way to resolve it quickly, and I think she knew, too, that stopping was going to be tremendously painful for you. She seemed to act a bit erratic; I would bet that it was hard for her to have to let you go when the timing was so obviously wrong, and because her own feelings were strong- her own positive feelings for you, as well as her regret and perhaps guilt over how things had to stop.
You didn't get a chance to work through the issues that brought you into therapy, but you did have the experience of developing an intense attachment. That is very healthy and promising in itself. I hope you will be able to have another intense, positive experience in therapy in the future- but NOT a time-limited one.
Posted by rubenstein on May 22, 2005, at 10:22:25
In reply to growth after termination.. » shrinking violet, posted by Pfinstegg on May 22, 2005, at 0:44:11
I agree, I am in college and in time-limited therapy, and it worries me knowing that there is an exact end-date. Oh well, I guess I will come to terms with that in my own time. I liked your post...it really made me think.
rubenstein
I think nearly every one of the students here who has had university-sponsored therapy just gets into such a tough situation; it IS time-limited, and can't go on when you are no longer a student. You are forced by these circumstances to abruptly rupture your attachment to your therapist, even when it is obviously in the process of growing, and is becoming more and more important to you. For those of us who are older, it seems extremely harsh, because we are all at some point in the process of allowing our attachments to our own therapists to deepen, and to involve more and more vulnerability and trust. It's only after a number of years (maybe five at a minimum) that people on these boards begin to realize that they have grown and accomplished at least some of the things they wanted to. Then termination becomes a possibility, but it, too is very hard- and it's very gradual.
>
> But for students, there is inevitably this very abrupt stopping. It sounds as though you were reaching the point of really trusting your therapist- with some ups and downs, for sure- and that you really wanted to let her know how important she-and the process of therapy- had become to you. In fact, you did find a lot of ways to express that. I think your therapist did have a difficult time, when she realized the depth of feeling you had developed. She knew there wasn't any way to resolve it quickly, and I think she knew, too, that stopping was going to be tremendously painful for you. She seemed to act a bit erratic; I would bet that it was hard for her to have to let you go when the timing was so obviously wrong, and because her own feelings were strong- her own positive feelings for you, as well as her regret and perhaps guilt over how things had to stop.
>
> You didn't get a chance to work through the issues that brought you into therapy, but you did have the experience of developing an intense attachment. That is very healthy and promising in itself. I hope you will be able to have another intense, positive experience in therapy in the future- but NOT a time-limited one.
>
>
Posted by JenStar on May 22, 2005, at 20:18:00
In reply to WE really grow up only when we leave our parents » shrinking violet, posted by pinkeye on May 20, 2005, at 20:35:35
pinkeye, I think that's a lovely and fitting analogy!
JenStar
Posted by JenStar on May 22, 2005, at 20:20:47
In reply to i wore her out, posted by shrinking violet on May 20, 2005, at 16:11:29
hi SV,
I'm sorry you're in so much pain! Hopefully time will ease the wounds of separation. It sound very painful, because you were so attached to her. It's so difficult to leave ANYONE abruptly. It sucks that the therapeutic relationship has to end this way so often. It's really not normal for humans to be "ok" with ending a close relationship so quickly and suddenly, without tapering down.But I suppose from the T standpoint, they have to do it that way to allow themselves to move on to the new patients, and to allow YOU to move on to, to the next steps and next people in your life. There will be move love and special relationships for you. Give it time.
((shrinking violet))
JenStar
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