![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on May 17, 2005, at 14:01:37
I'm very melancholy this week. And angry. There's so much about termination on the board.
And my pastor's leaving soon. This week he gave the sort of speech that leaving pastors give. About how much he'd enjoyed this ministry and how he hoped we'd sign the pew bible he'd be taking because he enjoyed looking back and seeing those people who touched his life and having specific memories about each one.
My therapist asked if I was going to tell him goodbye. No probably not. Or write him a letter telling him that he was the reason I chose this particular church. Also no. We might possibly go to the reception. I might even sign the d*mn pew bible.
But the truth is that I wanted to yell "Scr*w you!" to the poor man - a man I really don't have a close personal relationship with to begin with. It brought back so many old losses. And it made me so angry with my therapist.
Because one of these days he's likely to make such a imbecilic worthless piece of drivel speech to me. About how he's happy we've worked together, and how he's grown from having known me. And that'll just be plain cr*p.
I hate loss. I'm angry with those who have died and abandoned me. I'm angry with those who have moved away and abandoned me. And all the pretty words in the world won't make me less angry if my therapist abandons me.
My therapist let me sit with my anger for a while, which just made me more angry. Then he reassured me about the usual things. That if he gets a full time job, he'll keep a part time practice. That he won't leave town because his wife has ties here. That he has known of therapy relationships that don't end until death. He assured me that he knew how much it would mean to me. I told him about my joke about wrapping myself around his legs so that he'd have to peel me off, and then peel my fingers from his door jamb. And that it wasn't a joke. He assured me that he wouldn't terminate me with platitudes.
He asked me what was the first abandonment I could remember, and how I felt. I don't really remember the early ones. We left Daddy to go to live with Grandma. We left Grandma to go to live with Daddy. I have no recollection of either. I remember my dog dying, but I was in my twenties, and technically I killed her, so I shouldn't really blame her.
There has to be some reason that I react with such vehemence to life passages that others seem to take with reasonable grace.
I don't even want the pain of grief to stop, because I'd rather have the pain and the connection, than have no pain at all and no connection at all.
I don't connect often. Maybe that's all it is. I don't connect often and I'd rather cut off an arm than have those connections broken.
Posted by pinkeye on May 17, 2005, at 14:11:12
In reply to Loss, posted by Dinah on May 17, 2005, at 14:01:37
I can understand. I am little like that too. I don't get attached to too many people, but then if I get attached, it takes years to move on for me.
I guess it might have to do something with not being loved perfectly in life or some funda like that. I just have accepted that I hurt more than other people, and let it go at that.
Posted by rubenstein on May 17, 2005, at 14:35:16
In reply to Loss, posted by Dinah on May 17, 2005, at 14:01:37
>I get so nervous about loss as well, especially with my therapsit. I think when I make a connection it is a strong one and the thought of breaking it absolutely terrifies me. I wish I had something wise to say to you, but instead all I can offer is emphathy and say that I understand. Loss is so hard, I don't know people deal with it...I wish I could learn
Rachel
very melancholy this week. And angry. There's so much about termination on the board.
>
> And my pastor's leaving soon. This week he gave the sort of speech that leaving pastors give. About how much he'd enjoyed this ministry and how he hoped we'd sign the pew bible he'd be taking because he enjoyed looking back and seeing those people who touched his life and having specific memories about each one.
>
> My therapist asked if I was going to tell him goodbye. No probably not. Or write him a letter telling him that he was the reason I chose this particular church. Also no. We might possibly go to the reception. I might even sign the d*mn pew bible.
>
> But the truth is that I wanted to yell "Scr*w you!" to the poor man - a man I really don't have a close personal relationship with to begin with. It brought back so many old losses. And it made me so angry with my therapist.
>
> Because one of these days he's likely to make such a imbecilic worthless piece of drivel speech to me. About how he's happy we've worked together, and how he's grown from having known me. And that'll just be plain cr*p.
>
> I hate loss. I'm angry with those who have died and abandoned me. I'm angry with those who have moved away and abandoned me. And all the pretty words in the world won't make me less angry if my therapist abandons me.
>
> My therapist let me sit with my anger for a while, which just made me more angry. Then he reassured me about the usual things. That if he gets a full time job, he'll keep a part time practice. That he won't leave town because his wife has ties here. That he has known of therapy relationships that don't end until death. He assured me that he knew how much it would mean to me. I told him about my joke about wrapping myself around his legs so that he'd have to peel me off, and then peel my fingers from his door jamb. And that it wasn't a joke. He assured me that he wouldn't terminate me with platitudes.
>
> He asked me what was the first abandonment I could remember, and how I felt. I don't really remember the early ones. We left Daddy to go to live with Grandma. We left Grandma to go to live with Daddy. I have no recollection of either. I remember my dog dying, but I was in my twenties, and technically I killed her, so I shouldn't really blame her.
>
> There has to be some reason that I react with such vehemence to life passages that others seem to take with reasonable grace.
>
> I don't even want the pain of grief to stop, because I'd rather have the pain and the connection, than have no pain at all and no connection at all.
>
> I don't connect often. Maybe that's all it is. I don't connect often and I'd rather cut off an arm than have those connections broken.
Posted by sunny10 on May 17, 2005, at 14:45:22
In reply to Re: Loss, posted by rubenstein on May 17, 2005, at 14:35:16
In the past year I have lost almost everything and everyone...
I know how you feel...
Posted by Dinah on May 17, 2005, at 16:05:49
In reply to Re: Loss, posted by sunny10 on May 17, 2005, at 14:45:22
I too feel like I've lost everyone lately. Stupid I know. I still have my beloved son, and my wonderful husband, and some good friends besides.
But I lost Harry, and Daddy, and Bounty (years ago, but still fresh).
But why do I suddenly feel so angry? With my therapist for something he may someday do, but may well not. With Daddy and Harry and Bounty for dying. And not just a little angry. Head pounding ready to explode angry.
All because of a platitudinous speech given by my departing pastor?
And to make matters worse, I seem to have developed real trouble feeling angry directly at my therapist. If I start to feel angry around him, I just leave emotionally.
Drown it with Risperdal?
Posted by messadivoce on May 17, 2005, at 16:15:59
In reply to Loss, posted by Dinah on May 17, 2005, at 14:01:37
Dinah, I think that were I in your situation, I would be angry because of the neat way your pastor tried to tie everything up. Truth is, things change a lot when a church changes pastors, and relationships come to an end.
Pastors move on for lots of reasons. Their moving affects a lot of people. When this happens, there's a lot of talk about how they are pursuing new opportunities and how it's all God's will. But that doesn't mean that people won't hurt and things won't change, sometimes for the better and sometimes not.
I know this because my dad is a pastor. This is a dance I have done.
When I lost my T both times, I wanted SOMETHING to happen. It amazed me that life could carry on as though nothing was wrong, even as I was struggling to find the strength to get out of bed.
Are you angry because this loss is being treated glibly?
Posted by cricket on May 17, 2005, at 16:19:26
In reply to Loss, posted by Dinah on May 17, 2005, at 14:01:37
Dinah,
You said,"I'd rather have the pain and the connection, than have no pain at all and no connection at all."
I wish I could be that brave and strong. I am always running from connection, building up walls, keeping a vigil up in case someone tries to storm the gates.
But to make you feel better on the termination front. Today, when I sat in my T's office and just sobbed that I couldn't talk to him, that whenever I did talk it was one of the bad people (I guess I am pretty far along on the dissociative spectrum) and I never wanted them to talk at all and I felt so ashamed. Just shaking and sobbing all hour long.
He asked if I wanted to talk to him. I said yes, but I didn't know how yet. How to let me, what I think of as my true self, speak without all the others taking over.
He said, "I can wait. I want to relieve you of all pressure to talk until you figure out how to do it. However long it takes, I will wait."
Then he added, "for as long as we're both still alive and able to do this work anyway."
Which made me laugh a bit because neither of us are really that old and I got a picture of us sitting there with matching walkers.
So maybe not forever therapy, but till-death-do-us-part therapy looks like a possibility for me. So not all therapists subscribe to the "this has got to end" theory. So if you like, see what your T has to say about that.
Also, it's definitely not financial on my T's part. He is a fairly prominent major city psychiatrist whose rate is almost double what I can pay. It sounds like he's just willing to see me for as long as he practices just because it is what I need.
At the end, I wanted to tell him "Stay healthy." But I think I'd need some of your guts to do that.
Posted by Tamar on May 17, 2005, at 16:24:34
In reply to Loss, posted by Dinah on May 17, 2005, at 14:01:37
> I'm very melancholy this week. And angry. There's so much about termination on the board.
Sorry about that. My bad.
> And my pastor's leaving soon. This week he gave the sort of speech that leaving pastors give. About how much he'd enjoyed this ministry and how he hoped we'd sign the pew bible he'd be taking because he enjoyed looking back and seeing those people who touched his life and having specific memories about each one.
I expect he’s experiencing some sadness himself. Are you in a church that expects its pastors to move around every few years? I think it’s terribly hard on both the pastor and the congregation. It makes it difficult for both sides to establish close relationships, and sometimes people need to feel close to a pastor who, after all, reads and interprets and preaches the Word of God. It can feel almost as if the pastor is taking God away when he leaves.
> My therapist asked if I was going to tell him goodbye. No probably not. Or write him a letter telling him that he was the reason I chose this particular church. Also no. We might possibly go to the reception. I might even sign the d*mn pew bible.
LOL. I love the phrase ‘d*mn pew bible’.
> But the truth is that I wanted to yell "Scr*w you!" to the poor man - a man I really don't have a close personal relationship with to begin with. It brought back so many old losses. And it made me so angry with my therapist.
Strange how even a relationship that’s not close can have such a profound effect. Do you wish it were closer?
> Because one of these days he's likely to make such a imbecilic worthless piece of drivel speech to me. About how he's happy we've worked together, and how he's grown from having known me. And that'll just be plain cr*p.
Yeah: if he really cared, he wouldn’t leave. On the other hand, when I left my T, he told me he’d enjoyed the work we’d done together and he’d miss it. And he meant it. I know he really will miss me. But I hope you know that it’s true that your therapist *is* happy you’ve worked together, and he *has* grown from having known you, and he’s STILL THERE FOR YOU.
> I hate loss. I'm angry with those who have died and abandoned me. I'm angry with those who have moved away and abandoned me. And all the pretty words in the world won't make me less angry if my therapist abandons me.
No. And he understands that. He’s a good guy.
> My therapist let me sit with my anger for a while, which just made me more angry. Then he reassured me about the usual things. That if he gets a full time job, he'll keep a part time practice. That he won't leave town because his wife has ties here. That he has known of therapy relationships that don't end until death. He assured me that he knew how much it would mean to me. I told him about my joke about wrapping myself around his legs so that he'd have to peel me off, and then peel my fingers from his door jamb. And that it wasn't a joke. He assured me that he wouldn't terminate me with platitudes.
I wish I’d made my T peel me off his legs. Maybe he’d have phoned the police; I’m not a small woman.
> He asked me what was the first abandonment I could remember, and how I felt. I don't really remember the early ones. We left Daddy to go to live with Grandma. We left Grandma to go to live with Daddy. I have no recollection of either. I remember my dog dying, but I was in my twenties, and technically I killed her, so I shouldn't really blame her.
I struggle with the same sort of stuff. I fear rejection and abandonment terribly, and yet I have very little experience of it. I wish I knew what the answer was.
> There has to be some reason that I react with such vehemence to life passages that others seem to take with reasonable grace.
Maybe others don’t have the depth of character that you have. Maybe because of that depth of character you’re a kinder person. Maybe because of that depth of character you could experience life with a passion and exuberance that others can’t begin to dream of.
> I don't even want the pain of grief to stop, because I'd rather have the pain and the connection, than have no pain at all and no connection at all.
Me too. Are you still talking about your pastor?
> I don't connect often. Maybe that's all it is. I don't connect often and I'd rather cut off an arm than have those connections broken.And yet, some of those connections do break, and even cutting off our limbs can’t prevent that. Some relationships have to end. But your therapist is showing no signs of leaving, even though your pastor is. I completely understand about choosing a church because of the pastor. I need good preaching and decent hymns in order to survive church; otherwise it feels like a condemnation of everything I believe is true and just. Do you know yet who the new pastor will be?
Your passion about this does you credit.
Tamar
Posted by Dinah on May 17, 2005, at 19:37:18
In reply to Re: Loss » Dinah, posted by cricket on May 17, 2005, at 16:19:26
We've talked about it. He jokes about being a senile old man hobbling in with his walker and nodding off and my not being able to tell the difference. He's only about five or six years older than I am. It's funny, because I see him as this wise person, but in truth he was younger than I am now when I first started seeing him.
He also says that if he gets a full time job, he'll still keep a part time practice.
He says that as long as I find it useful, I can come in forever as far as he's concerned. I suspect he says that because abandonment issues consumed so much of our time, but I also believe he means it. So unless he moves or has incapacitating health problems, I think I can count on him being there.
But he might have incapacitating health problems (although he's promised to do his darndest to outlive me). And worse yet, if anything happens to his marriage, he might yet move. I pray for a continued good marriage for him.
And how can I trust him not to change his mind about a part time practice? He did that once before since I've been seeing him. Worked a nearly full time job and saw clients part time. He wasn't at his best those years, but it's better than being - gasp - terminated.
It is so weird that this topic that consumed our first seven or eight years of therapy is suddenly rearing its ugly head again. I thought I had it conquered.
Posted by Dinah on May 17, 2005, at 19:43:42
In reply to Re: Loss » Dinah, posted by messadivoce on May 17, 2005, at 16:15:59
That must have been a tough life growing up.
I belong to the Methodist church, and pastors are more or less expected to move from what I've heard. We've had him for ten years, so I guess we were lucky. I've probably been going there for seven or eight years. I love his sermons, and he is very knowledgeable. But I never developed a personal relationship with him. His leaving will probably affect me less than when our Sunday School teacher left and I had to stop attending. She was kind of like a mediator between me and the rest of the class.
I guess I do think it's being treated glibly in a way, but in a way that I understand is part of the church organization. I was really handling it fine until his little speech. I'll have to ask my husband exactly what it is that he said.
Obviously some buttons were pushed.
Posted by Dinah on May 17, 2005, at 19:49:10
In reply to Re: Loss, posted by rubenstein on May 17, 2005, at 14:35:16
Thanks Pinkeye and Rachel. Empathy does help.
My therapist sometimes has to interpret life for me. I've never been able to understand the ebb and flow of relationships. Most of my friends now are from high school and middle school. I even have occasional contact with elementary school friends. I'm a relationship leech. Well, I would be if I didn't watch myself very carefully and make sure I don't become a nuisance.
I just don't understand caring about people and then leaving. My therapist was trying to explain it to me today. He's been both a leaver and a left. I think I should have chosen a therapist more like me. One that never is a leaver, only a left. I picked a husband like that.
But I suppose that's a hard question to ask when interviewing a therapist.
Posted by Dinah on May 17, 2005, at 19:51:37
In reply to Re: Loss, posted by sunny10 on May 17, 2005, at 14:45:22
Sunny, it had somehow slipped my mind for the moment the extent of your losses. How are you doing with that?
I think I'm doing a bit better and that's making me really really angry. I don't want to lose Daddy again, or Harry again, by losing my grief. Before therapy, I managed to hold onto Bounty for years by hanging on to my grief.
Posted by Dinah on May 17, 2005, at 20:06:38
In reply to Re: Loss » Dinah, posted by Tamar on May 17, 2005, at 16:24:34
> > I'm very melancholy this week. And angry. There's so much about termination on the board.
>
> Sorry about that. My bad.No, silly. :) It's not just you. And it's what people are dealing with right now. It's not anyone's fault that it scares me senseless. If it's any consolation, when the main topic was boundary violations I got mad at my therapist for all the bad therapists out there. He thought it was hilarious. But he (and I) find this topic less funny. I think he really gets annoyed with me for my inability to let it go when he more or less has promised me forever therapy.
>
> I expect he’s experiencing some sadness himself. Are you in a church that expects its pastors to move around every few years? I think it’s terribly hard on both the pastor and the congregation. It makes it difficult for both sides to establish close relationships, and sometimes people need to feel close to a pastor who, after all, reads and interprets and preaches the Word of God. It can feel almost as if the pastor is taking God away when he leaves.Yeah, it's the Methodist church. Fortunately, I don't really need to feel close to him, because he's not really a warm guy. My therapist is qualified to see to my spiritual as well as my emotional needs. In fact, the one thing he's refused to promise me to do is to perform my funeral. He didn't say no, but he didn't say yes. It might be a dual relationship, but at that point would it matter? I told my husband to ask him anyway and tell him I'll haunt him till his dying day if he says no. :)
>
>
> LOL. I love the phrase ‘d*mn pew bible’.
>
Tamar, you have a real gift for making me laugh.
> > But the truth is that I wanted to yell "Scr*w you!" to the poor man - a man I really don't have a close personal relationship with to begin with. It brought back so many old losses. And it made me so angry with my therapist.
>
> Strange how even a relationship that’s not close can have such a profound effect. Do you wish it were closer?Not really. Apart from all else, he was gossiping to the care team about a friend of mine, a perfectly nice woman who had life troubles, who went to him for counseling.
>
>
> Yeah: if he really cared, he wouldn’t leave. On the other hand, when I left my T, he told me he’d enjoyed the work we’d done together and he’d miss it. And he meant it. I know he really will miss me. But I hope you know that it’s true that your therapist *is* happy you’ve worked together, and he *has* grown from having known you, and he’s STILL THERE FOR YOU.Yes, if he says it *now* I'll believe him. :) But not if he says it when he's abandoning me. Then it would be drivel. Of course he probably wouldn't be able to say it then because of the din of the wailing and gnashing of teeth.
>
> > I hate loss. I'm angry with those who have died and abandoned me. I'm angry with those who have moved away and abandoned me. And all the pretty words in the world won't make me less angry if my therapist abandons me.
>
> No. And he understands that. He’s a good guy.Yeah. He says he understands that.
>
> > My therapist let me sit with my anger for a while, which just made me more angry. Then he reassured me about the usual things. That if he gets a full time job, he'll keep a part time practice. That he won't leave town because his wife has ties here. That he has known of therapy relationships that don't end until death. He assured me that he knew how much it would mean to me. I told him about my joke about wrapping myself around his legs so that he'd have to peel me off, and then peel my fingers from his door jamb. And that it wasn't a joke. He assured me that he wouldn't terminate me with platitudes.
>
> I wish I’d made my T peel me off his legs. Maybe he’d have phoned the police; I’m not a small woman.I did make him laugh with that, although he also understood it was based on truth. I'm such a trial to him.
>
> > He asked me what was the first abandonment I could remember, and how I felt. I don't really remember the early ones. We left Daddy to go to live with Grandma. We left Grandma to go to live with Daddy. I have no recollection of either. I remember my dog dying, but I was in my twenties, and technically I killed her, so I shouldn't really blame her.
>
> I struggle with the same sort of stuff. I fear rejection and abandonment terribly, and yet I have very little experience of it. I wish I knew what the answer was.
>
Wouldn't it be nice? I keep looking for that key.> > There has to be some reason that I react with such vehemence to life passages that others seem to take with reasonable grace.
>
> Maybe others don’t have the depth of character that you have. Maybe because of that depth of character you’re a kinder person. Maybe because of that depth of character you could experience life with a passion and exuberance that others can’t begin to dream of.It's strange to think of myself that way. I've been unemotional, rational, almost robot person for so long. The girl that my husband's friend told him not to date because I was as cold as a log or something like that.
>
> > I don't even want the pain of grief to stop, because I'd rather have the pain and the connection, than have no pain at all and no connection at all.
>
> Me too. Are you still talking about your pastor?No, my Dad I guess. I'm angry that the grief is easing.
>
> > I don't connect often. Maybe that's all it is. I don't connect often and I'd rather cut off an arm than have those connections broken.
>
> And yet, some of those connections do break, and even cutting off our limbs can’t prevent that. Some relationships have to end. But your therapist is showing no signs of leaving, even though your pastor is. I completely understand about choosing a church because of the pastor. I need good preaching and decent hymns in order to survive church; otherwise it feels like a condemnation of everything I believe is true and just. Do you know yet who the new pastor will be?He sounds decent. We'll meet him sometime in June.
>
> Your passion about this does you credit.
>
> Tamar
>
>
Well, it would if it were really about our pastor. Although I do hate to see him go.
Posted by daisym on May 17, 2005, at 23:28:00
In reply to Re: Loss » sunny10, posted by Dinah on May 17, 2005, at 19:51:37
It probably doesn't help that your therapist has been traveling again. It brings home so many old feelings. Grieving is a process, and you are probably just evolving into another phase -- pushed along by the loss of your pastor.
Simply put -- Loss sucks. So there!
I hate good-bye. I usually avoid saying it, or being around when someone leaves. I can't handle it -- I feel so much panic. It flared up again today in therapy. He is going on vacation. I've been OK knowing that. Today I wasn't OK with it. I imagine him out house hunting, looking to leave the area. And then I'm upset with myself for having such foolish fantasies.
Has anyone talked to Dr. Bob about forever Babble? Should I worry now, or later?
Posted by Dinah on May 18, 2005, at 0:28:50
In reply to Re: Loss » Dinah, posted by daisym on May 17, 2005, at 23:28:00
Forever Babble. Hmmm... Somehow I never thought it would be otherwise.
Yeah, that may not have helped. Even though I routinely ask (to his annoyance) at the beginning of each session if he's got anything to tell me (termination, trips, etc.) he gave me one of those "Oh yeah, I might be out of town the last week of May." It's actually not a bad time for me since I'll be going to Chicago Friday, and the rest of the week is kind of crazy. But it was another of those last minute "Oh yeah" trips. And it probably helped stoke that anger.
I mean, I'm happy he's going on vacation and all. I just wish he wouldn't do the "Oh yeah" last minute thing.
He also got me a bit worried by telling me his practice was part time right now, he just was available for it full time. It's nothing I don't know, but he's given it a couple of years. I imagine he'll start looking for a full time job soon. And although seeing him outside his normal working hours is better than nothing, he really isn't all that good when he's overbooked.
Sigh.
I guess it isn't as incomprehensible as it seemed.
When is your therapist deserting you for a vacation, however well earned.
Posted by sunny10 on May 18, 2005, at 8:28:42
In reply to Re: Loss » sunny10, posted by Dinah on May 17, 2005, at 19:51:37
that's just more disassociation and denial...
I make it to work- I breathe in and out.
I don't really have much energy to post for others right now, but I DO think that someone in this thread (I think maybe Tamar, but I am just so scattered lately) mentioned that maybe you have been triggered simply because it DOES sound like the pastor was extremely glib about a major change in your community.
And there's nothing that hurts more than not having our feelings validated. It feels like we don't matter- and we begin to rehash the past to look for memories of simpler times to make ourselves feel content. Problem with depression is that when we look back for simpler times, we wind up focussing on the negative aspects, not the positive ones.
For you, that is loss. For others it is abuse, yet others it is neglect, and so on. For me, well, lately, it is all of the above.
Can you forgive the pastor for being so glib and forgive yourself for pulling up past hurts?
Maybe then you will feel some peace over this situation.
And maybe I'm just talking out of my b*tt as usual...
Posted by Dinah on May 18, 2005, at 8:52:11
In reply to Re: don't change the subject- YOU » Dinah, posted by sunny10 on May 18, 2005, at 8:28:42
:-)
I'm not trying to change the subject. I was just genuinely interested in how you were doing.
To be honest, I think I feel a bit bad about my pastor leaving. But I think the main trigger was the speech about leaving, so full of the sort of things people say when abandonment and loss are at hand. I know people can't do any better really. What do you say when you leave your lifelong friends behind to move away. Or when you face someone grieving. Or when you terminate a relationship. There's not much you can say that doesn't sound trite and totally insufficient.
I wonder if others would appreciate words of anger rather than words of comfort.
"Do not go gentle
Dylan Thomas
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because there words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light."So when someone leaves they could say "I care about our relationship, but I care about xxx more. If I didn't I wouldn't leave you."
Or if someone dies, instead of soothing with statements of better places, they could encourage the bereaved to rail against the fates, or just say "That s*cks."
Or if my therapist ever terminates me, instead of defending his reasons, he could just tell me how very angry he knows I am at him, how I don't have to pretend to be anything other than angry just because I also care about him and want what's good for him too, and encourage me to yell at him all I want (having first warned his office suite mates).
All the people who ever left me are people I cared about, and I wanted the best for them. My best friend from third grade, who told me she wanted to branch out in friendships before leaving town (and forever leaving me with the impression that I am a relationship leech who must watch myself constantly or else I'll suck the life out of my friends, although she said it very kindly and tactfully and didn't mean for me to feel that way)... My darling Bounty, light of my life, who I knocked off the bed and killed, but who I thought would at least come back to me in reincarnation or as a ghost... My father, who was in misery... Harry, who fought so hard to stay with me... My friend who moved for a better employment chance and standard of living... My friend who died and who was probably rightfully concerned about her kids more than me...
I have no right to be angry at any of them. Maybe I have a right to be angry at fate or circumstances.
But the intensity of my rage is out of proportion to what's reasonable.
Posted by sunny10 on May 18, 2005, at 11:43:35
In reply to Re: don't change the subject- YOU » sunny10, posted by Dinah on May 18, 2005, at 8:52:11
why can't you rage against your losses until you get all the way through the grieving process to acceptance?
And there is no time frame that you need to follow to do this.
But you do need to let go eventually, sweetie. To hold on to the grief forever is to torture yourself.
Rage as long and loud as you need to!!!! To deny the anger is to deny future acceptance...
Posted by Dinah on May 18, 2005, at 20:04:29
In reply to Re: it's not unreasonable » Dinah, posted by sunny10 on May 18, 2005, at 11:43:35
I dunno. I can still remember every freckle on Bounty's little tiny front foot. How her back felt under my hand.
Yet I'm already losing my father and Harry.
The difference is that I clung tightly to the pain last time, while this time I have therapy that may be keeping me from doing that. Every love song made me cry for two years with Bounty. For years after that, not a day went by when I didn't see her tiny body fall and remember my horror when she didn't bounce back up. That last desperate ride to the vets.
I don't want to lose those freckles. I don't want to lose a single mole of my father's. I don't even want to forget him saying grossly inappropriate things to my son. I want to keep him close. I want to keep Harry close.
I hate loss with every fiber of my being. I don't want any more. I don't even want to lose what I've already lost.
Posted by daisym on May 19, 2005, at 0:46:52
In reply to Loss, posted by Dinah on May 17, 2005, at 14:01:37
I wanted to answer your question about an emergency session, but I didn't want to hi-jack the thread above. This fits here perfectly anyway.
I ended up in a free-fall melt down this morning. We gently stuck in toe in the pool of my childhood again yesterday and talked about an impending visit from my dad and a family get-together which will include my unpredictable sister, hosted by my mother. This opened up such a painful place in me, a place I keep thinking is healed. And at the end of the session I let him know that adding his vacation to my list of things to handle in the coming weeks was really hard. I was surprised at how hard last night was, I guess I've been so overwhelmed with work issues that I "forgot" how painful some of this is.
When I went to work this morning, my assistant, my best friend, wasn't there. And I was done. The loss of this everyday support was too much and I've been pretending that it would be OK; different but OK. I think I sobbed steady for 20 minutes on the phone with my therapist before he could even ask me if I changed my mind about coming in today. And then, when I was with him, we ended up repeating the discussion about needing him, how dangerous that is and how stupid I feel about being upset about separation from him. He reassured me that he doesn't think my feelings are stupid and that he expects it to be hard for me when he is away. He wanted to work on ways to make it easier -- I just wanted to be upset with him about it. So he let me.
I suspect we will return to the subject tomorrow.
I hope your day is better tomorrow. Loss sucks. Plain and simple.
-M
Posted by Dinah on May 19, 2005, at 4:26:49
In reply to Re: Loss » Dinah, posted by daisym on May 19, 2005, at 0:46:52
> I hope your day is better tomorrow. Loss sucks. Plain and simple.
Thanks, Daisy. :) It does.
> When I went to work this morning, my assistant, my best friend, wasn't there. And I was done. The loss of this everyday support was too much and I've been pretending that it would be OK; different but OK.
Good heavens, yes. I'm sorry to have forgotten. I was half asleep yesterday. Of *course* loss would be coming up in your mind. Loss sucks, even for bosses required to make impossible choices.
> He wanted to work on ways to make it easier -- I just wanted to be upset with him about it. So he let me.
Oh, that was so nice of him. Mine tries to "fix" occasionally, but usually understands if I'm not quite ready for that. It's harder for him to do if it involves him. Defensiveness is one of my therapist's ongoing struggles, I think. :)
Mine's going on vacation too, *maybe*. As usual, I won't know till the week ahead of time most likely. Or maybe I'll know Friday, which would be a week and one day ahead of time. He'll be gone the week before the Babble trip, ending on the third. I'm hoping he won't change it to the week after the Babble trip. That would just drip (as usual) with bad timing for his vacation.
Sigh. We didn't discuss that, but it might have played a role in my anger.
I did mention that the pastor's speech reminded me of his pep talks before his vacation. Seeing the positive aspects of coping, etc. I told him to quit that. :)
Sigh. When's yours going? Can we be angry together?
Posted by sunny10 on May 19, 2005, at 9:14:19
In reply to Re: Loss » daisym, posted by Dinah on May 19, 2005, at 4:26:49
I can't shrug off the fact that you feel guilty about what happened to Bounty.
Do you somehow feel that you do something that makes people go away and feel desperate to figure out what it is so you can stop yourself from doing whatever it is?
I KNOW I'm projecting here.... this is how I feel. Does it feel true for you, too?
Posted by Dinah on May 19, 2005, at 20:13:59
In reply to Re: Loss » Dinah, posted by sunny10 on May 19, 2005, at 9:14:19
Yes, I still feel considerable guilt about her death. I know it was an accident, and I've have far rather done anything on earth than harm a hair on her tiny head. But I was responsible. And even the fact that she would have been long since dead by now doesn't change that.
I think I feel that I want too much from people and that drives them away. I care too much, I want too much. But I've worked very hard all my life not to *do* that. I can't help feeling it, but I try to be scrupulous not to do it. Except with my therapist.
Other than that... Harry tried mightily not to leave me. He lived far longer than anyone thought he could and adored me to the end. Daddy was so miserable the last four or five years of his life, but I know he didn't die on purpose either.
I'm doing so much work in therapy right now. I'd really like to concentrate on this abandonment issue which is clearly such a huge one to me and clearly affects all areas of my life.
Is that why Babble is so important to me? Does Babble as an entity seem more stable and less likely to abandon than any individuals, including individual Babblers might?
But I'm not sure what working on this issue would look like. I know how to behave better. I could probably behave better with my therapist if I set my mind to it. But behaving better wouldn't change my terror, and it would likely just leak out in other ways.
I don't quite know what to do. :(
Posted by sunny10 on May 20, 2005, at 11:53:25
In reply to Re: Loss » sunny10, posted by Dinah on May 19, 2005, at 20:13:59
> Yes, I still feel considerable guilt about her death. I know it was an accident, and I've have far rather done anything on earth than harm a hair on her tiny head. But I was responsible. And even the fact that she would have been long since dead by now doesn't change that.
>
*** So it's the guilt as much as the grief that you have to let go of, sweetie. I know this might sound really weird, but have you written her a letter?? It might release some of the guilt feelings if you could apologize to her- even though it was an accident.
> I think I feel that I want too much from people and that drives them away. I care too much, I want too much. But I've worked very hard all my life not to *do* that. I can't help feeling it, but I try to be scrupulous not to do it. Except with my therapist.
>
*****My theory for myself is that I work so hard AGAINST being who I am (low self-esteem issues and abandonment issues) that people can see how hard I work at it and they don't like me because I can't be myself. Then they feel like they can't be themselves around me, either, which makes them uncomfortable and they "leave"...
I'm not working hard at it, but I am now working on just being me. If people don't like "me", we probably shouldn't have any type of relationship anyway...it means we're not inherently compatible.> Other than that... Harry tried mightily not to leave me. He lived far longer than anyone thought he could and adored me to the end. Daddy was so miserable the last four or five years of his life, but I know he didn't die on purpose either.
>
**** I know, the death abandonment thing is so confusing because we logically know that they didn't have a choice in the matter- it was nothing "anti-us"... but that doesn't mean we don't feel the same loss...> I'm doing so much work in therapy right now. I'd really like to concentrate on this abandonment issue which is clearly such a huge one to me and clearly affects all areas of my life.
>
*** yes, this is why I've gone back to therapy as well as the low self-esteem crap... Logically I know I'm as good as everyone else, but within any type of relationship, I always wind up treating the other person better than myself.... my boss, my boyfriends, my (used to be) husband, my parents, et cetera.... Didn't matter what type of relationship it was...
> Is that why Babble is so important to me? Does Babble as an entity seem more stable and less likely to abandon than any individuals, including individual Babblers might?
>
*** Gosh, I never thought about it like that... I HOPE that's not what I'm doing here... I'm attempting to avoid crutches at the moment!!> But I'm not sure what working on this issue would look like. I know how to behave better. I could probably behave better with my therapist if I set my mind to it. But behaving better wouldn't change my terror, and it would likely just leak out in other ways.
>
> I don't quite know what to do. :(
******* In my opinion, the key is underlying issues. And they are called that because they lie beneath the surface of our conscience. We don't know what exactly they are. We know what they've LEAD to... but not the underlying cause of why we fear, or are confused, or are anxious, or are suffer from non-clinical depression.I'm going into therapy because I act or react in ways I don't like... that doesn't mean I know WHY... I expect the experts to help me figure that out.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.