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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by gardenergirl on June 5, 2004, at 18:31:10
Can you believe my T was able to take my accident, a seemingly random thing, though traumatic, and turn it into a tool for helping me work through transference? I call that man evil because he is so good. I worked hard in therapy yesterday, the day after. Can't I just have a happy session? You know, a feel good session?
But no. Somehow I found myself crying when I did not expect it. I had actually been really proud of myself for NOT crying while waiting for the police because several times I could feel tears begin to well up, but I was able to comfort myself and realize that this was not the time or the place. In his office, though, they came out unexpectedly.
I said so. Why now?
He asked, "what are you feeling?"
Me: I don't know or I wouldn't be so puzzled! (wow, getting a bit petulant with him. That's not like me, I don't think)
Anyway, T: (pushing) What are you feeling? You don't have to be right. Just say something. (ooh, that hurts. I DO have to be right. Their my feelings, darn it!)
Me: I think it's fear.
Him: What about fear is upsetting? Who comforted you when you were afraid in childhood?
Me: Uhhhhh. (now thinking I'm changing the subject...) Oh, did I tell you when I called 911 I got a recording? I called a few other people, too because I was bored (yeah, right). And then I called the secretary and got her voice mail...starts talking a bit more thoughtfully...You know I got my Dad's answering machine too......Hmmmm....
Him: 911 is supposed to protect you. And they weren't there.
Me: Crying in earnest now. Yeah. No one was. Well, [hubby] was, thank goodness. He's always there and always so supportive. And your office was so nice. But I kind of wished, later, that we could have talked on the phone, since it was my therapy hour time anyway. (secretly wishing he would have come and waited with me). I also was kind of hoping someone from my office would come and sit with me since I was just a block away.
Him: nods.So then we go into how this is similar to childhood. When I had to comfort myself. He kept asking me, when I was frightened, who comforted me. I couldn't come up with an answer.
I also told him that when I called my mother the night of the accident, she immediately launched into her latest dilemma and concern about her upcoming surgery. Now mind you, she's really terrified of this surgery, and she does have a legitimate concerns to be addressed. But you know, I called HER. She started to end the conversation when she was done, and I said, Ahem, Mom. I had something to tell you. Now I don't want to worry you more but....I'm pretty certain all she got out of that was how my having a rental care will affect my ability to take her to appts. and care for her after her surgery. Some things just don't change. It's an empty well, there. I even wonder if I had been seriously injured how much genuine concern she would be capable of showing versus fretting that now she would need to make arrangements for another caregiver. (All my conversations with my Mom are like this. All about her, no matter what I called for. You think I would learn.)The thing he said at the end, though, which has me scared and confused is this (sorry for waiting so long to get to the question):
He said something like you can't transform what was not there into something adequate now. I really can't remember the exact words he used, because I was having a bit of trouble processing information (seems I hit my head in the accident). But I think I have the gist of it. I don't know exactly what he means. It feels kind of hopeless. How the heck do I work through this now? I've been beginning to think about those who I know are there for me, like my hubby, his parents (who I didn't think to call until just yesterday, duh!), and my sister. Even my brother, with whom I've had a really rocky relationship sent me a nice caring email. So what do I do about my need for my mommy? She's not ever going to fulfill that need, I don't think. How do I not need her?Oh yeah, the transference part. I KNEW that he would be caring and supportive. He's the "good enough parent." Although he did not dwell on the accident, per se with lots of sympathy, as he was more into working. But it still was okay, and it's nice to have someone who I know I can count on for caring about me. I'm staring to trust that in my hubby now, whereas before, I was always waiting for the next crisis to be the last straw. But he's taken on quite a bit and is still holding me.
Okay, enough rambling. Any thoughts?
Thanks for listening,
gg
Posted by Racer on June 5, 2004, at 19:42:03
In reply to Speaking of transference (long), posted by gardenergirl on June 5, 2004, at 18:31:10
You know, that's similar to something I went through, years back, in my own much more successful therapy phase. What we talked a lot about was my mother not protecting me, making me 'protect' her from an early age. I was angry, of course, and hurt, and I remember one session very, very well:
me, crying unconsolably: "But since my mother never protected me, never comforted me, never helped me, never made me secure, how will I ever manage to feel secure?" (OK, words to that effect -- what stands out was how pre-verbal the whole thing felt to me at the time, just a bottomless well of pain.)
I don't remember much about the process now, but I do know that I did get past the overwhelming anger and need, and did form a much better relationship with my mother. (Not, of course, that she suddenly became a Good Enough Parent, nor that I suddenly became a securely balanced person. Just that I came to accept what didn't happen more, and did learn to find some better security inside myself, and learn to admit my own areas of competancy.)
Anyway, what I wanted to say is this: while we were working on it, I was in so much pain that I thought nothing would ever salve it. I was so emotionally needy that I could never be satisfied, could never feel secure, could never have a relationship with anyone at all (meaning friendship, acquaintanceship, professional, etc, as well as romantic), and was destined to spend the remainder of my life in abject despair. Damn, that was a really terrible time in my life, and it went on too long.
But it passed. I still get a few twinges of pain about my childhood, and about being so unprotected, and I think I already told you about my recent adventures in FamilyLand which always brings it all back up again, but they're twinges now. I haven't been back to that abyss in 15 years. Even when I do look back, during depressive episodes like now, I look back with a certain grief for the child I was, and a recognition that some of it still affects me daily, but not with the same hopeless misery. Now, even in my current state, I am still able to look at it as something that happened and that I still need to work on.
OK, translation into Basic Meaning:
It does get better. I promise. But first you have to go visit the Abyss of Despair.
(Think of it as being like Pilgrim's Progress: you gotta spend a day or two at the Slough of Despond...)
By the way, you're wonderful and brave. There are few things more devastating than car accidents. The shock alone is enough to throw anyone @$$ over teakettle. You made it through a major trauma, and you learned you could trust [hubby] to be there for you, despite your fears.
Posted by DaisyM on June 5, 2004, at 20:23:29
In reply to Speaking of transference (long), posted by gardenergirl on June 5, 2004, at 18:31:10
GG,
First, I'm really sorry about your accident. I'm so glad you weren't hurt!
And I think what you said above in your post to Poet is true...even if you know all about transference, it can and does happen. It is supposed to...it means you are attached to your Therapist and working on some intense issues.
But KNOWING that you are working through parental transference doesn't make it less painful. I'm sorry your mother isn't there for you and hasn't been in the past. And even though we *might* know better, we all want our moms to comfort us. So we keep trying, even though the well is empty. I'm trying to learn to accept that my mother is an outstanding mentor but she doesn't really know how to mother. Somehow, what she didn't do hurts worse, or at least as much, as what my dad did do.
I wish I had some great advice that would help you with this. I keep wishing that I didn't want or need my mother's care as much as I do. I think this is why when things get hard, I "cling" to my Therapist and simultanously wait for him to fail me. Old habits die hard.
It sounds like you are learning to trust a few people in your life to comfort you and meet your needs. I think this is huge. Especially since you are blessed with a husband that can be there for you. Hang on to him!
Sessions that are hard are exhausting but I think those are the ones that stay with us. Your Therapist sounds really great...evil though he may be. :)
Take good care.
Daisy
Posted by karen_kay on June 5, 2004, at 20:49:00
In reply to Speaking of transference (long), posted by gardenergirl on June 5, 2004, at 18:31:10
hello dear.
your post sort of struck a chord with me. my mother behaves very similar to the way yours is acting. i remember calling her once from the hospital (due to low blood sugar because i'd been eating rice for a month) and telling her i was in the hospital. her exact words were "well, what do you want me to do about it?" a few days later she did give me money (but i wouldn't ask her for it. she had to offer because i have a problem accepting things from her. not to mention, i was down to my last cup of rice. and rice, though unhealthy, is a great diet :) my sister gave birth alone (they lived in the same city, a different state where i wasn't able to travel and my sister had no friends) and when my mother finally did show up, it was only to get the keys to her business. and of course she yelled at my sister for taking them and not being able to open for her. that's the only time my mother came to see her in the hospital.
while it still makes me very sad not to be able to depend on my mother when a daughter should, i realize there are other things my mother is very good at. she does things in her own way. she flew me out to see her (unheard of! my mother, send me to come visit?) after i was hospitalized for an attempted suicide. she didn't say to me it was because she was worried, but she did say it to other members of the family. and she has said she's proud of me a few times, but i've heard from many other people that she is very proud of me, and that she even told them she was proud. i don't expect her to attend my graduation, she'll be working just like last time i graduated. but, i do know my sisters will be there. even so, it would mean so much to me if she were to show up!
enough of me bad mouthing my mother :) but, i've honestly realized that my mother is great at many things (just not always the things i'd like her to be great at). she's the strongest woman i know and i could only hope one day to be that strong. she is able to help me with my taxes. and though she doesn't always say it (or show it the way i'd like her to) she loves me very much. and i've learned to get the 'motherly' support from my older sister rather than my mother. she's the one that strokes my hair when i cry in front of her. she's the one that gives me advice when i need it. she's the one that is more of a conventional mother to me and my sister.
while i still want my mother to act like a perfect mother, i know her limitations. so, i've found someone else to take over those duties. is that a possibility for you? it was a rather easy transition, since my sister helped raise me as a child. and i still hold out hope my mother will be there for me when i need her to be, but i also know to call my sister first, just to avoid getting hurt in situations where i don't need any more pain.
Posted by fallsfall on June 5, 2004, at 20:58:30
In reply to Speaking of transference (long), posted by gardenergirl on June 5, 2004, at 18:31:10
> So then we go into how this is similar to childhood. When I had to comfort myself. He kept asking me, when I was frightened, who comforted me. I couldn't come up with an answer.
*** I have a guided imagery meditation that asks who comforted me when I was little, who held me in their lap. No one did. At least not that I can remember. That makes me sad. We deserved to be comforted. Maybe that's why I'm so into hugs now.
> I also told him that when I called my mother the night of the accident, she immediately launched into her latest dilemma and concern about her upcoming surgery.
*** My father asks how I am doing and I tell him I'm depressed and his response is (always) "I'm more depressed than you are..." But he won't even do anything about it. He is my emotionally healthier parent. Sigh. Maybe we should introduce your mother and my father...
>
> He said something like you can't transform what was not there into something adequate now.*** Maybe he means that since she wasn't able to meet your needs when you were little, you shouldn't expect her to meet them now. Sort of "accept her limitations"? It really isn't fair. I've accepted my mother's limitations, but I'm not there yet with my dad.
I think that what has helped me most to accept my mother's limits is to truly believe that it isn't that she "chooses" to be limited. It is more like she was born without the ability to relate emotionally. It is not like she doesn't WANT to relate emotionally - it is more like she is defective. How can I be mad because she is defective? I know she has always tried to be a loving mom - and in many ways she has done a really good job.
It is harder with my dad because I keep thinking if he wasn't so pigheaded that things could be fine. But he IS pigheaded, and there is something very powerful that is keeping him in the place where he is. As I start to understand my own unconscious motivations, I'm beginning to think that he must have some really powerful ones himself. I know the hell I'm going through, and I'm sure that it would be much harder for him (because he's older, because he's been so much more perfect for so much longer than me). When I see how hard it is for me, I can understand why (particularly at his age) he doesn't want to get into this. But it means that my daddy can't take care of me, and that is hard. I guess I'm trying to see it more from his viewpoint these days, and I'm seeing how unhappy and hopeless he is - it gives me more compassion.
I, too, don't know how to stop needing the things my parents will never give me. I don't know how to mourn not having what I needed (and what I need).
Your husband sound like a real keeper. Hopefully you can find some comfort with him.
(((Gardenergirl)))
Posted by karen_kay on June 5, 2004, at 20:59:00
In reply to Re: Speaking of transference » gardenergirl, posted by DaisyM on June 5, 2004, at 20:23:29
Somehow, what she didn't do hurts worse, or at least as much, as what my dad did do.
you too, eh? i really used to harbor alot of resentment towards my mother. but, in my case, my father was a 'father' to me. when i was hurt, he was there. when i needed support, he was there. i mean, growing up, my mother was the 'bad guy'. she was ill, abusive and unsupportive. but, my father defended me. and still, my mother's neglect to me hurts much more than anything my father could have done. at least he took me to the park. at least he wasn't hurtful (that i remembered). at least he was there. i'm glad that i'm not alone in feeling this way. strange thing is, bubba never did want to talk about my mother much. but, at least i was able to work past many of the issues i had with her. i don't know how i did, but i did.
Posted by lucy stone on June 5, 2004, at 21:31:22
In reply to Speaking of transference (long), posted by gardenergirl on June 5, 2004, at 18:31:10
> He said something like you can't transform what was not there into something adequate now. I really can't remember the exact words he used, because I was having a bit of trouble processing information (seems I hit my head in the accident). But I think I have the gist of it. I don't know exactly what he means. It feels kind of hopeless. How the heck do I work through this now? I've been beginning to think about those who I know are there for me, like my hubby, his parents (who I didn't think to call until just yesterday, duh!), and my sister. Even my brother, with whom I've had a really rocky relationship sent me a nice caring email. So what do I do about my need for my mommy? She's not ever going to fulfill that need, I don't think. How do I not need her?
>I had tyranical father who terrorized my mother, my sister and I with his out of control rages. My mother was so intimidated by him that she didn't protect us and I have a lot of anger at her for that. I have a huge hole inside of me that feels the need to for someone to hold me, protect me, and comfort me. My mother has been dead for 30 years and I will never have any kind of nuturing relationship from her. I have major transferance for my analyst and want him to fill the hole. He says he can't (I say he won't!) and we go round and round. He tells me that what I want I will never have, because adults don't get that. I want to be protected and cared for like a baby, but I'm an adult woman. He says that I need to grieve for the loss of parents who cared for me like I needed to be cared for, and until I can do that grieving I will not be open to what I do have in my life. I have real realttionships with real adults that that put together will fill the hole. The hole is smaller now and I can see what he means. I have always been very dependent on my husband and have made him take care of me in ways that are really not what one adult should be doing for another. We're gradually changing that and I am doing more for myself. I still haven't done all the grieving I need to do but I am working on it. Perhaps your T has something similar in mind with you, that you didn't have what you needed when you were little and you will never have that. What you can have is adult relationships with people who care about you as an adult.
Posted by gardenergirl on June 5, 2004, at 21:46:49
In reply to Re: Speaking of transference (long), posted by lucy stone on June 5, 2004, at 21:31:22
Wow, it seems like this really hits close to home for a number of people. I want to thank everyone for their posts. It really helps me to process it more, as I did not really get to spend much time with that pain in the session due to timing and obligations the rest of the day.
But I know that deep down pain. I think I started with it in therapy, and did not know what it was. That was scary, as it did indeed seem like a bottomless pit. That has gotten better, so I guess this just shows me that it is a very deep pit with hidden coves and pockets that still need to let out some of that noxious stuff.
I think y'all are right that my T was trying to say that I need to grieve the loss and move towards accepting it. I'm glad to hear that has helped others. I definitely need to spend more time processing this.
But not tonight. (I sound like Scarlett O'Hara!) Thank you all!
gg
Posted by crushedout on June 6, 2004, at 0:41:10
In reply to Speaking of transference (long), posted by gardenergirl on June 5, 2004, at 18:31:10
Boy, do I identify with that how do you ever get over needing your mommy stuff. I wish I knew the answer. If you figure it out, gg, will you please tell me? The thing is, I don't want *my* mommy (as you seem to want yours), I want a *new* mommy (namely, my T, or someone very much like her) but I still desperately need a mommy. And I feel like I'm getting a little too old to have one. But this woman at the place I've been working told me that "as they say down south, 'there's a handle for every pot'" so I've been holding onto that.
Posted by Aphrodite on June 6, 2004, at 6:46:01
In reply to Speaking of transference (long), posted by gardenergirl on June 5, 2004, at 18:31:10
Let me chime in to say I too was neglected and unwanted by my mother. I have no contact with her now, which I find very regretful. I've wanted to rekindle that relationship, but I realize she was not able to be who I needed and that wouldn't change now.
If you want a good long cry on the subject, I recommend a storyteller tape by a Jungian psychologist called "Warming the Stone Child." (Dr. Bob, the double quotes thing doesn't seem to work for audio tapes.) Through different tales of unmothering and abandonment and this psychologist's take on them, you begin to learn that the neglected child has many gifts, namely great insight about others. She says that we have an instinct about dangerous and unsafe people that people who were well-cared for as children do not have. She goes on to say that we often override that gift in our desparate need to be loved, that as adults, we cling to others in a last-ditch effort to get what we didn't have. It's very insightful -- I learned a lot and cried a lot, too.
Gardenergirl, I'm glad you are OK. It makes perfect sense that it would trigger all the things that came afterward. Hope you make it through OK, and yes, tomorrow is another day :)
Posted by terrics on June 6, 2004, at 10:52:38
In reply to Speaking of transference (long), posted by gardenergirl on June 5, 2004, at 18:31:10
(((gg)))), No reflections. You seem to understand your mom and know you are not going to get much understanding or comfort there. You do have some good supports and are smart enough to use them. Sorry about your accident. Hope you didn't get hurt.
Posted by fallsfall on June 6, 2004, at 11:37:51
In reply to about those mommies » gardenergirl, posted by Aphrodite on June 6, 2004, at 6:46:01
Thank you for pointing me to "Warming the stone child"! I will get it today - it sounds wonderful. Reading the reviews online gives me goosebumps.
References on Amazon and Barnes&Noble from that tape have also pointed me to tapes to listen to at bedtime to relax and go to sleep. I got a tape 9 years ago when I was in the hospital (called "Relax to sleep" - I can't find it to purchase now), but it can help to have more than one (I've really overused my old one, it doesn't work as well anymore). I would much rather listen to a tape than take Ativan!
Posted by Aphrodite on June 6, 2004, at 13:26:02
In reply to Re: about those mommies » Aphrodite, posted by fallsfall on June 6, 2004, at 11:37:51
Falls,
Let me know what you think after you've listened to it. I think you'll find it moving.
And I agree that relaxtion tapes are very helpful. I am particularly relaxed by the guided meditation CDs of Dr. Andrew Weil.
Posted by TofuEmmy on June 6, 2004, at 15:00:03
In reply to about those mommies » gardenergirl, posted by Aphrodite on June 6, 2004, at 6:46:01
I highly recommend the tape "Warming the Stone Child". It's by Clarissa Pinkola Estes, Phd. She is the woman who wrote "Women who Run with the Wolves". (Maybe that link will help them find it). I have given it to friends, and other people I've met along the way. I love the concept of the Internal Mother, and how we each have our own who loves us unconditionally.
I saw a statue once of a Hispanic woman clutching an infant tightly in her arms. She has an expression of such love on her face. I had to buy it - she represents my internal mother.
:-) Emmy
Posted by Pfinstegg on June 6, 2004, at 16:14:18
In reply to Speaking of transference (long), posted by gardenergirl on June 5, 2004, at 18:31:10
I'm having a somewhat different experience with my analyst in terms of the very lonely isolated relationship with my depressed mother which I had when I was a baby and young child. He looks for the group of feelings associated with that experience, and speaks to "them" in a very gentle, warm voice, reassuring that part of me, and letting it know that although she wasn't there, he is. He works, in part, from a model of me as having quite a bit of dissociation, as having cut off those painful parts in order to make it through life. So, he helps to bring those painful parts to the surface of my mind, and in a way, does fulfill the needs they have. It seems to work, as I feel a lot better! Is anyone else having an experience like this?
I have another set of feelings, also long buried, concerning abuse by my father when I was an older child. He deals with those in much the same way- contacting them, when I make them available, as if they contain feelings and fears which I as an adult do not have in the same way. He speaks to *them* directly. I guess you can see that he's an analyst who thinks dissociation happens a lot to traumatized people. I thought it was such a strange idea at first, but now I know he's right.
Posted by DaisyM on June 6, 2004, at 17:04:49
In reply to Re: Speaking of transference (long) » gardenergirl, posted by Pfinstegg on June 6, 2004, at 16:14:18
Peg,
I think we have very similarly trained therapists. Last week I was in tears about wanting the people close to me so see my pain and to care about me. I was talking specifically about my husband and my mother and I was very much in little kid mode. My Therapist said, "I see your pain and I care about you..." I sort of wailed that I needed to be cared for more than 3 hours per week and that led to a whole discussion of internalizing your therapist. I guess this is similar in someways to finding an internal mother.
Posted by DaisyM on June 6, 2004, at 17:10:16
In reply to Speaking of transference (long), posted by gardenergirl on June 5, 2004, at 18:31:10
This is kind of interesting, especially since you are in the business. I found it in my Health magazine today:
25% of people experience some PTSD after a car crash. For more information go to:
www.After the Crash.com
Posted by Poet on June 7, 2004, at 0:27:58
In reply to Speaking of transference (long), posted by gardenergirl on June 5, 2004, at 18:31:10
GG,
Car accidents are traumatic. I'm so glad your T was there for you, transference and all. (and your wonderful husband, too!)
I wasn't nurtured as a child, either. That has a lot to do with why I don't like it when my T says she cares about me. She told me that I need to accept that she cares, and to try to open my heart and let her in. I don't want her as a mother substitute, maybe she can be a visiting aunt?
Poet
Posted by GARDENERGIRL on June 7, 2004, at 21:20:53
In reply to Re: Speaking of transference (long), posted by Poet on June 7, 2004, at 0:27:58
I wanted to come up with more individualized replies to everyone. You all posted such thought and feeling-provoking posts. Some I read with tears rolling down my cheeks. Some made me laugh and cry at the same time. Some made me think. Right now I just don't have the energy to thank you and respond individually. I'm caught up in dissertation, trying to get a new car, and helping my mom prepare for her surgery (oy, the timing!)
I'm reading stuff, just not able to post much right now. I need to get a draft of my D done and then I may have more energy. God, I hope so.
Take care all,
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on June 8, 2004, at 9:14:00
In reply to Psychology web site for car accidents » gardenergirl, posted by DaisyM on June 6, 2004, at 17:10:16
Posted by gardenergirl on June 8, 2004, at 9:14:45
In reply to Psychology web site for car accidents » gardenergirl, posted by DaisyM on June 6, 2004, at 17:10:16
This is the end of the thread.
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