![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 6 to 30 of 69. Go back in thread:
Posted by liliths on December 10, 2006, at 23:43:14
In reply to Re: non-opiate replacement for hydrococone? TO ALL » liliths, posted by Quintal on December 8, 2006, at 21:17:23
Hi Q
you say you've tried Kratom? What was it like? have you continued to use it and if not, why?
I suspect it may be quite expensive
I'l also be curious to know more about the oxycotin spray... are you trying to obtain it? How long has your friend been using it?
any info would be appreciated :)
thanks again
namaste,
lilith> This got me thinking about Kratom. I assumed it would produce positive results ona drugs test, but apparently not:
>
> 'One example is kratom, a substitute for the prescription pain killer OxyContin, a popular drug with addicts seeking a high. Kratom's leaves can be smoked or put in a tea ball and brewed, and the resultant concoction drunk.
>
> Kratom looks like marijuana and smells like sweet tea, but it produces the same effects as OxyContin: an opium-like high. “You can be actively high and still pass a drug test,” Talbot says. Talbot says that most police officers aren’t aware of it, and, in fact, none of the other experts interviewed for this story had heard of kratom or various other substitute drugs.'
>
> http://www.securitymanagement.com/library/001830_2.html
>
> There's more info on Kratom here: http://www.erowid.org/plants/kratom/kratom.shtml
>
> Basically it's a legal (for the moment) herb that produces effects similar to opiates and cocaine - the classic 'speedball'. I've tried it myself and it is very nice ;-).
>
> It may be hard to find in the US, though there are sources - mostly online head shops: http://www.iamshaman.com/eshop/10Browse.asp?Category=Kratom.
>
> Q
Posted by Quintal on December 10, 2006, at 23:43:14
In reply to Re: non-opiate replacement for hydrococone? TO ALL » Quintal, posted by liliths on December 9, 2006, at 7:06:25
Hi Liliths,
Kratom made me feel much like I do on opiates, but less sedating and sometimes energizing. I felt warm inside and completely at peace. I was using it mostly as a high occasionally at weekends like most people use alcohol to relax. I hadn't really thought of using it daily for anxiety and depression though there's no reason why you can't - like people use Kava for anxiety. I did once put some powdered leaf into a capsule as a sleep aid and slept deeply. I am going to get some more myself.
Kratom does seem to be mildly addictive and habit forming as you would expect for an opiate-like substance, but withdrawal seems less traumatic than with traditional opiates like the hydrocodone you're already taking.
All the info on oxytocin, including web links are on the link to the thread I posted earlier. I'll put them here again for convenience: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20061110/msgs/704011.html
You can buy oxytocin spray here: http://www.verolabs.com/product.php?UID=2006112308022688.110.78.59, http://www.verolabs.com/. I can't get it because I have no credit card right now.
You can buy kratom here: http://www.iamshaman.com/eshop/10Browse.asp?Category=Kratom. I don't particularly like this site because there are a few dubious claims made over some of its products, but it is one of the few head shops that supply Kratom in the US. I think it should be reliable as far as the Kratom is concerned.
I would recommend buying one of the stronger extracts as you get more mileage out of them. It sells for about $8.99 for 28g and an average dose to get high is about 3-6g. I suspect you would need much less as a daily supplement for depression and anxiety. I don't know what you consider expensive, but I guess anything that helps you get your license and living the lifestyle you've worked so hard for is pretty valuable in itself? I've read it's possible to augment the effect of opiates and prevent tolerance by adding Lamictal if you can tolerate it.
Q
Posted by Quintal on December 10, 2006, at 23:43:14
In reply to Re: non-opiate replacement for hydrococone? TO ALL » Quintal, posted by liliths on December 9, 2006, at 6:45:32
I used to mix the Kratom leaves with vodka and sometimes heat it a bit to extract the active ingredients. The finished liquid is dark brown and has an oily film that is transparent when warm, but seems to condense and turn white when cool - much like milk in coffee.
It had a numbing effect on my mouth and throat - a bit like coke. I did feel a little nauseous afterwards, but that is normal with opiate-like substances. The feeling of peace and warmth came on after about 30 minutes and lasted for something like four hours. There was an afterglow that lasted into the next day.
I recommended Kratom to a friend that also posts here under the name Mcanxious. I think he would be willing to report his experience if you think it would help.
Q
Posted by liliths on December 10, 2006, at 23:43:15
In reply to Re: non-opiate replacement for hydrococone? TO ALL » liliths, posted by Quintal on December 9, 2006, at 10:43:53
Hi Q,
you have simply been amazing. Interestingly, at the dose I take, the hydrocodone is quite energizing, helps me focus and seems to also effect my motivation. I'm more willing to do things which, in turn, make me feel better.
The Kratom won't show up in a drug test?
It sounds like it really might be effective. I've also been looking at Lamictal - I don't know much about it but it did look like something worth trying. Having you bring it up only confims my interest :)
I'm thinking about perhaps discontinuing the buspar and possibly even the wellbutrin. I've titrated off buspar 3 times in the past 5 years and every time felt a distinct increase in my depression - it never did anything for my anxiety but definitely seemed to augment the ADs. But considering my current condition, it might be worth taking a look at changing meds since I'm having to change one of the most important.
and yes, I know, only one at a time LOL
My pdoc was great about teaching me how to do trials. He had to, considering how resistant I was to the ADD diagnosis - I was worried about it as I loved methamphetamine when in high school - I guess I was afraid about the potential for abuse. Though in looking back, NOW I can so clearly see how ADD has affected my life and I've never had a problem on any of the meds - never interested in more. I probably couldn't handle it at my age anyway LOL I'm an old lady now, despite my fairly high level of fitness. And I was obviously using it even back then to self-medicate
what's bad now is that he has become totally resistant to changing my regimen. I went to him recently about changing some of AD's and he wouldn't hear of it! Weird.
Well, he's going to have to now that I have to stop the hydrocodone. Just have to convince him about Lamactil, if it looks as promising as I hope.. it certainly sounds like it might be worth a tryI did self-medicate many years ago with cocaine. I wasn't on any meds then and cocaine seemed like the perfect anti-depressant. What got me into trouble with it was that it was also the main party drug with the people I was hanging with. We both know the end of that story, right? LOL I had to put it down and not touch it again before I got into trouble. I know I was lucky. What I find so surprising is that some of those people are still doing it... we're talking over 20 years ago!!
I can buy the oxycotin without a prescription? I'll definitely check out all your links. Thank you for providing them again in one place. I made a document out of it.
and you're right... it does sound like I may be able to use quite a small dose of the Kratom and the expense would be well worth it if it worked
I really can't thank you enough for all the trouble you've taken... I haven't been able to get off the couch today, feeling so sorry for myself. Getting your email has been galvanizing!
namaste,
lilith> Hi Liliths,
>
> Kratom made me feel much like I do on opiates, but less sedating and sometimes energizing. I felt warm inside and completely at peace. I was using it mostly as a high occasionally at weekends like most people use alcohol to relax. I hadn't really thought of using it daily for anxiety and depression though there's no reason why you can't - like people use Kava for anxiety. I did once put some powdered leaf into a capsule as a sleep aid and slept deeply. I am going to get some more myself.
>
> Kratom does seem to be mildly addictive and habit forming as you would expect for an opiate-like substance, but withdrawal seems less traumatic than with traditional opiates like the hydrocodone you're already taking.
>
> All the info on oxytocin, including web links are on the link to the thread I posted earlier. I'll put them here again for convenience: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20061110/msgs/704011.html
>
> You can buy oxytocin spray here: http://www.verolabs.com/product.php?UID=2006112308022688.110.78.59, http://www.verolabs.com/. I can't get it because I have no credit card right now.
>
> You can buy kratom here: http://www.iamshaman.com/eshop/10Browse.asp?Category=Kratom. I don't particularly like this site because there are a few dubious claims made over some of its products, but it is one of the few head shops that supply Kratom in the US. I think it should be reliable as far as the Kratom is concerned.
>
> I would recommend buying one of the stronger extracts as you get more mileage out of them. It sells for about $8.99 for 28g and an average dose to get high is about 3-6g. I suspect you would need much less as a daily supplement for depression and anxiety. I don't know what you consider expensive, but I guess anything that helps you get your license and living the lifestyle you've worked so hard for is pretty valuable in itself? I've read it's possible to augment the effect of opiates and prevent tolerance by adding Lamictal if you can tolerate it.
>
> Q> I used to mix the Kratom leaves with vodka and sometimes heat it a bit to extract the active ingredients. The finished liquid is dark brown and has an oily film that is transparent when warm, but seems to condense and turn white when cool - much like milk in coffee.
>
> It had a numbing effect on my mouth and throat - a bit like coke. I did feel a little nauseous afterwards, but that is normal with opiate-like substances. The feeling of peace and warmth came on after about 30 minutes and lasted for something like four hours. There was an afterglow that lasted into the next day.
>
> I recommended Kratom to a friend that also posts here under the name Mcanxious. I think he would be willing to report his experience if you think it would help.
>
> Q
Posted by liliths on December 10, 2006, at 23:43:15
In reply to Re: non-opiate replacement for hydrococone? TO ALL » liliths, posted by Quintal on December 9, 2006, at 10:43:53
Hi Q
I just ordered some Liquid Trust (sounds so silly) and also went to order Kratom but the website you mentioned couldn't process my order... I kept getting a strange 'error' message so I emailed them about it
figured I had nothing to lose by just going ahead and getting them both :)
just thought you'd want to know
thanks for everything
namaste,
lilith
Posted by Quintal on December 10, 2006, at 23:43:15
In reply to just a quick update » Quintal, posted by liliths on December 9, 2006, at 12:50:13
I think you'll like the Kratom ;-) Can't say for sure about the oxytocin spray since I haven't tried it, but I hope it is effective. Please keep me posted.
I'm thinking it would be possible to detect mitragynine, the main active alkaloid in Kratom, in a urine test if it were analysed in a lab. There are no standard tests that would identify it as yet and none likely to be in the near future. There is little they could do about it even if you were to test positive for mitragynine for some reason since it is not a controlled substance in the US according to Erowid and other sources: http://www.erowid.org/plants/kratom/kratom_law.shtml.
I hope you do go on to get your license and practice anyway - perhaps while mentally holding the middle finger up at the people who tried to deprive you of everything you've worked for? I'm not sure about long-term efficiency of either Kratom and oxytocin spray, and the same goes for hydrocodone, but I guess you may have more self-esteem to help you cope better when you are back in work in any case?
Have you thought about discussing these things with the pdoc? I wouldn't expect him to be suportive given the things you've said about him, but you never know.
Q
Posted by zmg on December 10, 2006, at 23:43:15
In reply to Re: just a quick update » liliths, posted by Quintal on December 9, 2006, at 13:49:49
I really don't want to be alarmist or anything, but there have been some documented long-term effects (probably with heavy use):
"..chewed kratom daily for 3 to 30 years (mean of 18.6 years). Long-term use of kratom resulted in the person becoming thin, skin darken, dry mouth, frequent urination and constipation."
Better to be informed then alarmed.
Posted by liliths on December 10, 2006, at 23:43:15
In reply to Re: just a quick update » liliths, posted by Quintal on December 9, 2006, at 13:49:49
Hi Q
I'm sure my pdoc would be pretty pissed about my taking anything he doesn't understand - I mentioned tiapentine (sp?) to him and he just gave me a 'not for discussion' look.
He also refused to consider buprenorphine - said he doesn't want to get involved in prescibing it - of course, this was before the whole opiate fiasco, which makes it moot anyway.I do have a question about ordering Kratom though. I notice it comes in many forms. I see it powdered in capsules, crushed leaf. Then there's Kratom Premium Commercial as well as Kratom Thai Green Vein powder... there's even resin pies. Kratom 15x standardized extract
They even offer a sample pack: wt. 0.7 oz for $14.95
The sample pack includes the following items:
2 Grams - 15x Standardized Extract
7 Grams - Premium Commercial Powder
7 Grams - Thai Green Vein Powder
Qty 5 - Premium Commercial Capsules
all this is from the site: http://kratomherbs.com/The http://www.iamshaman.com site offers Premium Leaf, Red Vein leaf, standardizes 10x extract, 15x extract, super powder, new guiea 20x extract, resin pies and resin extract
The mind boggles!!! LOL
what do you recommend trying?
thanks
namaste,
lilith> I think you'll like the Kratom ;-) Can't say for sure about the oxytocin spray since I haven't tried it, but I hope it is effective. Please keep me posted.
>
> I'm thinking it would be possible to detect mitragynine, the main active alkaloid in Kratom, in a urine test if it were analysed in a lab. There are no standard tests that would identify it as yet and none likely to be in the near future. There is little they could do about it even if you were to test positive for mitragynine for some reason since it is not a controlled substance in the US according to Erowid and other sources: http://www.erowid.org/plants/kratom/kratom_law.shtml.
>
> I hope you do go on to get your license and practice anyway - perhaps while mentally holding the middle finger up at the people who tried to deprive you of everything you've worked for? I'm not sure about long-term efficiency of either Kratom and oxytocin spray, and the same goes for hydrocodone, but I guess you may have more self-esteem to help you cope better when you are back in work in any case?
>
> Have you thought about discussing these things with the pdoc? I wouldn't expect him to be suportive given the things you've said about him, but you never know.
>
> Q
Posted by liliths on December 10, 2006, at 23:43:15
In reply to Re: just a quick update, posted by zmg on December 9, 2006, at 13:57:42
hi zmg
Thank you for the info. I definitely want to know what I'm considering trying...
that link and the info are appreciated :)
thanks again
namaste,
lilith> I really don't want to be alarmist or anything, but there have been some documented long-term effects (probably with heavy use):
>
> "..chewed kratom daily for 3 to 30 years (mean of 18.6 years). Long-term use of kratom resulted in the person becoming thin, skin darken, dry mouth, frequent urination and constipation."
>
> Better to be informed then alarmed.
>
> http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/drugs_concern/kratom.htm
Posted by Quintal on December 10, 2006, at 23:43:15
In reply to Re: just a quick update, posted by zmg on December 9, 2006, at 13:57:42
I've read similar reports of this side effect before. It seems to be a concern for some people taking it at very high doses to get completely wasted for several decades - as with the long-term abuse mentioned among the working classes of Thailand.
This problem was raised by somebody posting on the opiate boards a while ago as it has become popular among heroin addicts posting there as a substitute and a self-help detox method. I'll try to find a link. It was not considered a problem by the people posting there who had been using it at high doses already for a few years. They considered the weight loss to be caused by appetite suppression (as is the case with all stims like the Focalin liliths is taking).
There's a similar syndrome reported with long term, chronic Kava Kava abuse which is also reported to damage the liver. It doesn't seem to apply to low/moderate therapeutic use.
I guess like with all substances using it excessively for a long period of time is likely to cause some harm, though the Kratom syndrome was reversible on discontinuation despite the great length of time (up to 30 years) it had been abused.
Q
Posted by Quintal on December 10, 2006, at 23:43:15
In reply to Re: just a quick update » Quintal, posted by liliths on December 9, 2006, at 14:22:59
Hi Liliths,
Here is a link to a company that specialises in Krtom: http://www.kratomherbs.com/.
They offer sample packs for newbies: http://kratomherbs.com/Kratom_Sample_Packs.asp.
Maybe it would be a good idea to order a sample pack and see what you like yourself?
I've tried the regular strength leaves, 20x extract and the resin. You can also get Kratom oil - which is supposed to be very good.
I would think the lyophilized extract would provide the best absorbtion.
Q
Posted by Quintal on December 10, 2006, at 23:43:15
In reply to Kratom » zmg, posted by Quintal on December 9, 2006, at 14:43:27
Well ther's loads of info on Kratom here!:http://forum.opiophile.org/search.php?searchid=177320
It seems some people who are looking to get high feel almost nothing, while others have a euphoric experience. I guess people using it for depression may feel different effects though.......
Q
Posted by zmg on December 10, 2006, at 23:43:15
In reply to Re: Kratom » Quintal, posted by Quintal on December 9, 2006, at 15:10:59
I always figured potency in grey market herbs like Kratom would probably vary a lot, sort of like grey market chemicals.
Quality control probably fluctuates between vendor a lot and because of the nature of the market (and frequently, intended use) there isn't a lot of good discussion regarding various vendors, standarization and the quality of their product.
I imagine it would be hard for a vendor to invest a great deal of money in standarization when the legality of the herb could change at any time.
Posted by Quintal on December 10, 2006, at 23:43:16
In reply to Re: Kratom » Quintal, posted by zmg on December 10, 2006, at 14:10:55
Many online vendors are supplying what they claim are 15x extracts etc, and it's doubtful they're all medical grade products since that is not the target market. You certainly couldn't get a precise dose of mitragynine from standard ground leaf - the first batch I got contained bits of twigs. I stuck to concentrates and resins after that, which seem more reliable.
The bigger online vendors supply hundreds of products besides Kratom, so I imagine the do have the resources to cope with this. It's worth emailing the vendor before you buy if you have concerns.
It would be interesting to mail a standard query to all the online Kratom vendors and compare their responses? I think I'll do that actually! I'll post their replies on this thread as and when I get them. Any ideas for particularly cunning and penetrating questions?
Q
Posted by liliths on December 10, 2006, at 23:43:16
In reply to Re: Kratom » zmg, posted by Quintal on December 10, 2006, at 14:57:06
Is there any way of testing some of the products ourselves? It would be interesting to compare findings
I imagine one could ask about their quality control. Anybody good at chemistry here?
Standardization of herbal products, supplements, even vitamins have always been an issue. For that matter, the same questions have been raised about 'generic' drugs.
Just my 2˘... I know I haven't really added anything to this thread but I am interested.
Yes, please keep us updated :)
namaste,
lilith> Many online vendors are supplying what they claim are 15x extracts etc, and it's doubtful they're all medical grade products since that is not the target market. You certainly couldn't get a precise dose of mitragynine from standard ground leaf - the first batch I got contained bits of twigs. I stuck to concentrates and resins after that, which seem more reliable.
>
> The bigger online vendors supply hundreds of products besides Kratom, so I imagine the do have the resources to cope with this. It's worth emailing the vendor before you buy if you have concerns.
>
> It would be interesting to mail a standard query to all the online Kratom vendors and compare their responses? I think I'll do that actually! I'll post their replies on this thread as and when I get them. Any ideas for particularly cunning and penetrating questions?
>
> Q
Posted by liliths on December 10, 2006, at 23:43:16
In reply to Re: just a quick update » liliths, posted by Quintal on December 9, 2006, at 13:49:49
Hi Q
you're right about the self-esteem issue. The hardest thing about this ordeal was having my rights violated, losing more control over my own life... the experience itself was also very shaming
I think some of my interest in kratom has a lot to do with simply wanting to not be told what I can or cannot take. I am aware there may be a huge difference in advertised strengths vs actual. It will be interesting to try it as well as the oxycintin spray - I'll keep you posted on it all, if you like.
I'm not feeling very optimistic about my future at the momentbtw, I did order that sample pack - I figure what the hell :)
I'll have to call my pdoc tomorrow to tell him about the latest news - that I have no standing to change things as they are and have to accept their terms if I want the damn license. And I'll have to look into employent attys for the discrimination suit
to be honest, I don't want to do any of it... I'm going to have to push myself on this. And that includes trying to find other meds.
I hope I am functional if and when I do get a license. I won't pretend I am still the person I was when I passed my boards and first applied. I've lost a lot of momentum, confidence and belief in my ability to actually have a worthwhile life again... and getting that was a hard one battle to begin with. It took giving up a lot of other things I haven't been able to regain in myself...
oh my, I really dislike whining like this - so sorry!
I know self-pity can be awfully unattractive as well as frustrating for other peoplethanks for listening
namaste,
lilith> I think you'll like the Kratom ;-) Can't say for sure about the oxytocin spray since I haven't tried it, but I hope it is effective. Please keep me posted.
>
> I'm thinking it would be possible to detect mitragynine, the main active alkaloid in Kratom, in a urine test if it were analysed in a lab. There are no standard tests that would identify it as yet and none likely to be in the near future. There is little they could do about it even if you were to test positive for mitragynine for some reason since it is not a controlled substance in the US according to Erowid and other sources: http://www.erowid.org/plants/kratom/kratom_law.shtml.
>
> I hope you do go on to get your license and practice anyway - perhaps while mentally holding the middle finger up at the people who tried to deprive you of everything you've worked for? I'm not sure about long-term efficiency of either Kratom and oxytocin spray, and the same goes for hydrocodone, but I guess you may have more self-esteem to help you cope better when you are back in work in any case?
>
> Have you thought about discussing these things with the pdoc? I wouldn't expect him to be suportive given the things you've said about him, but you never know.
>
> Q
Posted by Quintal on December 10, 2006, at 23:43:16
In reply to Re: Kratom » Quintal, posted by liliths on December 10, 2006, at 16:12:31
Hi Liliths,
Hmmmmm, well I studied chemistry at college but I think mitragynine extraction is beyond my capabilities right now! It would be an interesting challenge to try though.
Zach, is mitragynine listed in the Merck Index by any chance?
>Standardization of herbal products, supplements, even vitamins have always been an issue. For that matter, the same questions have been raised about 'generic' drugs.
That's true. I guess your optimum dose may vary from day to day in any case as your stress levels and tolerance fluctuate? The same thing happened to me with benzos. If you were using a tincture you're bound to get a slightly different dose each time you take it anyway.
I'll just ask the companies some generic questions about their quality control - lab certificates and testing etc.
Will keep you posted.
Q
Posted by Quintal on December 10, 2006, at 23:43:16
In reply to Re: just a quick update » Quintal, posted by liliths on December 10, 2006, at 16:32:50
>The hardest thing about this ordeal was having my rights violated, losing more control over my own life... the experience itself was also very shaming
I can imagine it is - I feel angry just hearing about what you're going through. We depressives etc are so often told to pull ourselves up by the bootstraps and get back into work, but what incentive is there when we're treated like this?
>I'm not feeling very optimistic about my future at the moment
That's to be expected given your circumstances, but I hope you don't let the fight go out of you - there are plenty of us here on PB who will give you the support (and weapons) you need to keep up the good battle.
>btw, I did order that sample pack - I figure what the hell :)
Well you should have one very relaxing and enjoyable evening trying them out if nothing else.
>to be honest, I don't want to do any of it... I'm going to have to push myself on this. And that includes trying to find other meds.
Ah, but you must keep trying now when things seem bleak - it's a sure-fire way to earn solid confidence when you triumph and things brighten up again. It'll seem like plain sailing from then on and you'll be able to look back at yourself and know you're capable of riding out the storm. Future challenges will seem less intimidating because of this.
>I hope I am functional if and when I do get a license. I won't pretend I am still the person I was when I passed my boards and first applied. I've lost a lot of momentum, confidence and belief in my ability to actually have a worthwhile life again... and getting that was a hard one battle to begin with. It took giving up a lot of other things I haven't been able to regain in myself...
This can be just a temporary setback if you make it that way, and I'm guessing much of this negative self-perception will change when you're doing the job you trained to do.
>oh my, I really dislike whining like this - so sorry!
>I know self-pity can be awfully unattractive as well as frustrating for other peopleI think we'll let you off with that for now ;-) - There are loads of people here rooting for you and I think I speak for most when I say it's very rewarding to see someone we've encouraged succeed at reaching their goals life.
Keep us posted.
Q
Posted by liliths on December 11, 2006, at 7:16:09
In reply to License » liliths, posted by Quintal on December 10, 2006, at 18:53:18
hi Q
this board is probably the most important place in my life right now :)
yes, your support DOES make me want to go out and beat the bastards as it would be a victory for us all! I would eventually like to advocate for better monitoring. One of the reasons I tell myself I must go through with being compliant now is to get inside the very system I hope to change
my biggest worries about practicing are that I already have credentials and skills in areas I'm not capable of using. Hiding in the house instead. I was a graphic designer/digital artist for many years until my career tanked after 9/11. And I'm a Certified Personal Trainer. But not being able to go out, much less market myself, makes obtaining clients a tad difficult LOL
before the whole license fiasco, I had a slot secured on our local Sports Massage Team. I know that for me getting out & showing up is 90% of the battle. Though it was only part-time, it would mean working in my field, regaining my confidence, getting out and meeting people - networking!. But whether that slot will still be available by the time my license ever does come through - if indeed it does - is anybody's guess
I also had a potential opportunity to work with hurricane katrina survivors. Louisiana has very good reciprocity laws which would have enabled me to obtain a license in that state once I received my florida license. Now I need to find out if my license is going to have a 'red flag' on it - meaning I'm being monitored - which would make getting licensed anywhere else nearly impossible. And of course, that's another opportunity that probably won't be there either
without some structure, I am pretty much my own worst enemy. All the studies about 'learned helplessness' (and oddly enough many of them were in the opiate papers :) are quite true.
Depressive dysfunction becomes a habit. Even if I'm feeling better, that doesn't always mean I can act on it if I've become too used to withdrawing from life. Like anything else, showing up takes practice and that's why I know I have no choice but to comply with these morons. If I don't, then I really DO let them win. I just hope I have a VERY strong and nasty civil suit to get them with. I should at least be reimbursed for ALL the $$ I've had to shell out and the shame & suffering alone is priceless. Oh how I want to make PRN pay for thinking it is above the law!thanks for cutting me some whine slack :)
now I just need to figure out how I think my meds ought to be changed. I've always done the bulk of my research for my meds - I've been using this board for many, many years now - when it was only a med board - and was shocked after returning from one particular hiatus to find how huge we had become and had ALL these other rooms as well! Simply learning how many of us were out there who don't get 'fixed' by taking that one little advertised pill was tantamount to a transcendent experience. I'll never forget the profound relief that came with not being alone with 'being me' anymore
I know I need to keep the focalin xr and the klonopin, but I'm wondering if augmenting the wellbutrin/buspar with lamacil would be advised - or if I shoud drop the wellbutrin OR just the buspar in favor of toally new meds. I have read that lamactil works best as an augment to an AD so I know I'd probably need something. As I've said before, I don't do well on SSRI's and anything with weight gain is a huge no-no for me - nothing will take me down faster than that! One becomes used to meds like focalin. Early in the day, when it's at its peak efficacy, I make myself eat regularly anyway. In the evenings, when it's worn off, I tend to overeat when depressed or bored or frozen. I have to be very careful about my weight - right now I'm carrying more bodyfat than I am comfortable with and cannot let it get any worse as it becomes one of the reasons I won't go out.
and almost everything I look at seems to have that potential, except for the wellbutrin. If you have any other suggestions, please feel free. I'm going to need to go into my pdoc's office with a whole list of 'possibilities', as well as documentation about why I want to try it. As I said earlier, he has become increasingly resistant to making any changes - laziness? i don't know. But if I have to cut the hydrocodone, I definitely need to consider a different regimen.
thanks for listening. I'm really curious to play with my new toys LOL when they arrive and I'm also interested in what some of these sites have to say about quality control. I agree that even standardized meds can affect one differently on any given day, as our bodies are never in the same place biochemically or hormonally and our nutrient ratios and hydration levels affect what we take too. But being a gym rat and a huge fan of supplementation, I know that consistently and accuracy of claims has always been an issue.
ok, enough rambling for one morning. Time to go find attys!!
take care of your sweet self. You've been a blessing
namaste,
lilith> >The hardest thing about this ordeal was having my rights violated, losing more control over my own life... the experience itself was also very shaming
>
> I can imagine it is - I feel angry just hearing about what you're going through. We depressives etc are so often told to pull ourselves up by the bootstraps and get back into work, but what incentive is there when we're treated like this?
>
> >I'm not feeling very optimistic about my future at the moment
>
> That's to be expected given your circumstances, but I hope you don't let the fight go out of you - there are plenty of us here on PB who will give you the support (and weapons) you need to keep up the good battle.
>
> >btw, I did order that sample pack - I figure what the hell :)
>
> Well you should have one very relaxing and enjoyable evening trying them out if nothing else.
>
> >to be honest, I don't want to do any of it... I'm going to have to push myself on this. And that includes trying to find other meds.
>
> Ah, but you must keep trying now when things seem bleak - it's a sure-fire way to earn solid confidence when you triumph and things brighten up again. It'll seem like plain sailing from then on and you'll be able to look back at yourself and know you're capable of riding out the storm. Future challenges will seem less intimidating because of this.
>
> >I hope I am functional if and when I do get a license. I won't pretend I am still the person I was when I passed my boards and first applied. I've lost a lot of momentum, confidence and belief in my ability to actually have a worthwhile life again... and getting that was a hard one battle to begin with. It took giving up a lot of other things I haven't been able to regain in myself...
>
> This can be just a temporary setback if you make it that way, and I'm guessing much of this negative self-perception will change when you're doing the job you trained to do.
>
> >oh my, I really dislike whining like this - so sorry!
> >I know self-pity can be awfully unattractive as well as frustrating for other people
>
> I think we'll let you off with that for now ;-) - There are loads of people here rooting for you and I think I speak for most when I say it's very rewarding to see someone we've encouraged succeed at reaching their goals life.
>
> Keep us posted.
>
> Q
Posted by verne on December 11, 2006, at 18:07:18
In reply to Kratom » zmg, posted by Quintal on December 9, 2006, at 14:43:27
I tried kratom a few times and noticed a slight opiate effect. I can't remember the doses but I far exceeded the usual both in tea (using the simmer a quart of water with the leaves down to a couple ounces of bitter extract) by chewing, and even trying to smoke it in a waterpipe. But any *high* was really weak and short-lived, followed by a long headache - one lasted 3 days. (and I rarely get headaches)
I got it from www.iamshaman.com They seem to get better marks for quality than most ethnobotanical suppliers.
For me it's not worth the headache or price to continue experimenting. I'm burned out on most of the "enthno"'s. Blue Lotus petals (not the Lily) from Nepal was the only thing that was truly worth smoking and it doesn't come close to pot. I mixed it with daminana or something neutral for burnability. Daminana powder by itself isn't bad in a waterpipe. Nice light sedation with a little body tingle thrown in.
Anyway, if I didn't have klonopin I'd probably be mixing up a smoke mixture of blue lotus http://www.iamshaman.com/eshop/10Expand.asp?ProductUID=1432&ProductCode=BLP-HOZ and damiana.
verne
Posted by Quintal on December 11, 2006, at 22:38:04
In reply to Re: License LONG :) » Quintal, posted by liliths on December 11, 2006, at 7:16:09
> my biggest worries about practicing are that I already have credentials and skills in areas I'm not capable of using. Hiding in the house instead. I was a graphic designer/digital artist for many years until my career tanked after 9/11. And I'm a Certified Personal Trainer. But not being able to go out, much less market myself, makes obtaining clients a tad difficult LOL
Well you seem to have plenty of skills and experience to bring to your new profession liliths.> now I just need to figure out how I think my meds ought to be changed. I've always done the bulk of my research for my meds - I've been using this board for many, many years now - when it was only a med board - and was shocked after returning from one particular hiatus to find how huge we had become and had ALL these other rooms as well! Simply learning how many of us were out there who don't get 'fixed' by taking that one little advertised pill was tantamount to a transcendent experience. I'll never forget the profound relief that came with not being alone with 'being me' anymore
>
> I know I need to keep the focalin xr and the klonopin, but I'm wondering if augmenting the wellbutrin/buspar with lamacil would be advised - or if I shoud drop the wellbutrin OR just the buspar in favor of toally new meds. I have read that lamactil works best as an augment to an AD so I know I'd probably need something. As I've said before, I don't do well on SSRI's and anything with weight gain is a huge no-no for me - nothing will take me down faster than that! One becomes used to meds like focalin. Early in the day, when it's at its peak efficacy, I make myself eat regularly anyway. In the evenings, when it's worn off, I tend to overeat when depressed or bored or frozen. I have to be very careful about my weight - right now I'm carrying more bodyfat than I am comfortable with and cannot let it get any worse as it becomes one of the reasons I won't go out.
>
> and almost everything I look at seems to have that potential, except for the wellbutrin. If you have any other suggestions, please feel free. I'm going to need to go into my pdoc's office with a whole list of 'possibilities', as well as documentation about why I want to try it. As I said earlier, he has become increasingly resistant to making any changes - laziness? i don't know. But if I have to cut the hydrocodone, I definitely need to consider a different regimen.A dopamine agonist may be a good place to start if you haven't tried them already? Nardil may also be very effective, especially in combination with Lamictal? There are obviously potential problems with the Focalin and the opiate (but you are planning to drop that anyway?), though I have heard of people combining opiates and stims with MAOIs it's not for the faint hearted. Parnate would probably be better with regards to the ADHD problem, but you have already tried that?
Perhaps Parnate, Lamictal (as augmenter), Lyrica (as a benzo substitute if they try and force you off it?) and low dose Focalin or dopamine antagonist?
I'm not sure. You seem to have a very complicated history and are quite informed yourself. I guess you know the limits of your pdoc best.
Q
Posted by Quintal on December 11, 2006, at 23:02:33
In reply to Re: Kratom, posted by verne on December 11, 2006, at 18:07:18
>I tried kratom a few times and noticed a slight opiate effect. I can't remember the doses but I far exceeded the usual both in tea (using the simmer a quart of water with the leaves down to a couple ounces of bitter extract) by chewing, and even trying to smoke it in a waterpipe. But any *high* was really weak and short-lived, followed by a long headache - one lasted 3 days. (and I rarely get headaches)
What is your usual opiate tolerance? I can feel the effect of 16mg codeine myself which is supposedly quite low. It's more a relief of chronic depression and nervous tension than a 'high' for me. The headache is strange - didn't have than problem myself, I had a lovely warm afterglow the next day! Did you try an alcoholic extract? I think I've read somewhere that mitragynine is lypophillic and can be hard to dissolve in water - you mostly get other alkaloids and pigments that way. The best way of getting the maximum dose of mitragynine is to soak the leaves in alcohol for a few days. This method seems to works best for me in any case.
>I got it from www.iamshaman.com They seem to get better marks for quality than most ethnobotanical suppliers.
How many have you tried? I read a dubious story on their wormwood page that made me very wary and suspicious:http://www.iamshaman.com/eshop/10Browse.asp?Search=Wormwood
That story about Tatha, "Goddess of Scotland", sounds like cr*p to me. I live near the Scottish border and have never heard anything like it. It seems designed to seduce a naive "New Age" American audience to my ears.
>For me it's not worth the headache or price to continue experimenting. I'm burned out on most of the "enthno"'s. Blue Lotus petals (not the Lily) from Nepal was the only thing that was truly worth smoking and it doesn't come close to pot. I mixed it with daminana or something neutral for burnability. Daminana powder by itself isn't bad in a waterpipe. Nice light sedation with a little body tingle thrown in.
There is a blend of herbs called 'Spice' available here in the UK that is generally considered equal to or better than skunk by most who try it. Here is a copy of the product description:
--------------------------------------------------
Ingredients:
Baybean, Blue Lotus, Lion's Tail, Lousewort, Indian Warrior, Dwarf Scullcap, Maconha Brava, Pink Lotus, Marshmallow, Red Clover, Rose, Siberian Motherwort, Vanilla and HoneyUse Responsibly:
Not permitted for sale to persons under the age of 18Not permitted to be sold to the following territories due to sales restrictions:
USA, Australia, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Norway, Holland, Austria, Japan
--------------------------------------------------I've never tried Blue Lotus on its own. I've read it's good soaked in a bottle of red wine - adds a mellow, psychedelic edge to it?
I like to idea of using a portable electronic vaporizer to get a clean dose of active ingredient: http://www.everyonedoesit.co.uk/online_headshop/productCategory.cfm?sC=Vapir_Vaporizers&iProductCategoryID=16&iLastCatID=12
I wonder what regular doses of Kratom resin vapor would feel like?
Q
Posted by verne on December 12, 2006, at 0:15:27
In reply to Re: Kratom » verne, posted by Quintal on December 11, 2006, at 23:02:33
I think I have low tolerance for opiates. I usually got looped and felt no pain on low doses. I had a few morphine shots for one injury or another and a couple weeks of percodan when I had my wisdom teeth pulled many years ago. I may have popped a few codeine but not sure about the dose. I was a cheap pot smoker too. One toke of really good stuff was enough for me. Strong hash made me horizontal for several hours. Yet I always took acid in the 1,000 microgram range and couldn't get enough or quit smiling.
I'm trying to abstain from alcohol so soaking kratom or blue lotus in wine isn't an option for me. I agree, this is the preferred, most effective method. The first Egyptologists (early 1900's) recorded how high they got when they soaked blue lotus (or lily) in wine for a week and drank it. They described a psychedelic and euphoric experience. The Blue Lily at iamshaman did nothing for me. But the Blue Lotus from Nepal definitely has something going for it.
I had the same reaction to the hyped up descriptions at iamshaman - especially with the tea and smoke "blends". I was tempted when I read their sale's pitch but always concluded it sounded bogus. Besides, I've already smoked most of the ingredients in the Druid blend and not convinced they've put together something magical.
I also couldn't find anything to corroborate their write-up about Sugundi Root. In fact, one source seemed to suggest it was Indian Sassafrass or Sasspirilla (sp) or something like it. I'm still not sure what they are selling as "sugundi" root but I have to say it had possibilities.
The roots are so hard they twisted the blades in my nut grinder. I cut and shredded it down to something smokable by hand. I felt a nice buzz but can't remember details. I then tried boiling the rest down to an extract with little success. Gave up and never ordered it again. Wish I knew what it really was.
But iamshaman is good for incense and certain herbs. Always well-packaged and promptly shipped. I get a 10% discount and free shipping.
I have very little experience with opiates but everytime I've used blue lotus (Nelumbo Nucifera) petals (even without the wine soak) I've felt a kind of anesthetic high. I remember comparing it to novocaine. The sensation started in the mouth and spread to my brain. I actually had a kind of flashback to the dentist's office when I was a kid. Wish I could do it with the wine, perhaps, I can find some other way to extract the active ingredients.
I'll try to find the equivalent of the UK "Spice" blend. No hurry though. Looking forward to trying saffron and continuing my *experiments* with various other herbs like albizzia. My queque is full.
verne
Posted by liliths on December 12, 2006, at 14:34:53
In reply to Re: License LONG :) » liliths, posted by Quintal on December 11, 2006, at 22:38:04
hi Q
thanks for staying in touch. I'm feeling REALLY defeated about everything at the moment. Doesn't look like I'm going to be able to find an atty to take the discimination case. At any rate, I was given the good advice not to file a suit until after my hearing LOL but I'm feeling pretty bad about the whole thing
I'm going to contact someone at the dept of health for some advice - she was out today - I want to know if I have a shot in hell of getting PRN's recommendations to change my meds overturned
I've taken nardil in the past - quite a long time ago - it worked great at first and then sent me into an eating frenzy that only ended when i began cutting myself - went off it after that!! I think I tried parnate too but don't remember much - we're talking probably about 20 years ago
so you're saying that MAOI's are contraindicated with ADD meds? That would definitely rule them out.
would the lamactil possibly work with the wellbutrin?
thanks for thinking of me
namaste,
lilith
> > my biggest worries about practicing are that I already have credentials and skills in areas I'm not capable of using. Hiding in the house instead. I was a graphic designer/digital artist for many years until my career tanked after 9/11. And I'm a Certified Personal Trainer. But not being able to go out, much less market myself, makes obtaining clients a tad difficult LOL
>
>
> Well you seem to have plenty of skills and experience to bring to your new profession liliths.
>
> > now I just need to figure out how I think my meds ought to be changed. I've always done the bulk of my research for my meds - I've been using this board for many, many years now - when it was only a med board - and was shocked after returning from one particular hiatus to find how huge we had become and had ALL these other rooms as well! Simply learning how many of us were out there who don't get 'fixed' by taking that one little advertised pill was tantamount to a transcendent experience. I'll never forget the profound relief that came with not being alone with 'being me' anymore
> >
> > I know I need to keep the focalin xr and the klonopin, but I'm wondering if augmenting the wellbutrin/buspar with lamacil would be advised - or if I shoud drop the wellbutrin OR just the buspar in favor of toally new meds. I have read that lamactil works best as an augment to an AD so I know I'd probably need something. As I've said before, I don't do well on SSRI's and anything with weight gain is a huge no-no for me - nothing will take me down faster than that! One becomes used to meds like focalin. Early in the day, when it's at its peak efficacy, I make myself eat regularly anyway. In the evenings, when it's worn off, I tend to overeat when depressed or bored or frozen. I have to be very careful about my weight - right now I'm carrying more bodyfat than I am comfortable with and cannot let it get any worse as it becomes one of the reasons I won't go out.
> >
> > and almost everything I look at seems to have that potential, except for the wellbutrin. If you have any other suggestions, please feel free. I'm going to need to go into my pdoc's office with a whole list of 'possibilities', as well as documentation about why I want to try it. As I said earlier, he has become increasingly resistant to making any changes - laziness? i don't know. But if I have to cut the hydrocodone, I definitely need to consider a different regimen.
>
> A dopamine agonist may be a good place to start if you haven't tried them already? Nardil may also be very effective, especially in combination with Lamictal? There are obviously potential problems with the Focalin and the opiate (but you are planning to drop that anyway?), though I have heard of people combining opiates and stims with MAOIs it's not for the faint hearted. Parnate would probably be better with regards to the ADHD problem, but you have already tried that?
>
> Perhaps Parnate, Lamictal (as augmenter), Lyrica (as a benzo substitute if they try and force you off it?) and low dose Focalin or dopamine antagonist?
>
> I'm not sure. You seem to have a very complicated history and are quite informed yourself. I guess you know the limits of your pdoc best.
>
> Q
Posted by Quintal on December 12, 2006, at 15:11:03
In reply to Re: License LONG :) » Quintal, posted by liliths on December 12, 2006, at 14:34:53
>so you're saying that MAOI's are contraindicated with ADD meds? That would definitely rule them out.
They can cause hypertensive crises, but low doses can sometimes be used successfully. Parnate has similar effects to some ADHD meds so it is possible you could do without them, but it doesn't sound worth the risk and disruption to me from what you're describing.
Lamictal could work well with Wellbutrin but word-finding difficulties seem quite common in early treatment and I notice you had that problem already with Wellbutrin alone. Worth trying though and possible substituting the Wellbutrin with another med.
> Doesn't look like I'm going to be able to find an atty to take the discimination case. At any rate, I was given the good advice not to file a suit until after my hearing LOL but I'm feeling pretty bad about the whole thing
I'm going to contact someone at the dept of health for some advice - she was out today - I want to know if I have a shot in hell of getting PRN's recommendations to change my meds overturned
>
>
Looks as though you may have to accept that coming off the hydrocodone is likely if you want the license. There are still the other substitutes we've talked about and dopamine agonists may work well for you.Q
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Alternative | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.