![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Mistermindmasta on September 11, 2005, at 23:34:22
I have a little theory that might not have any truth to it, since I really don't know enough about neuroscience to be talking like I'm going to be talking, but I'll share it anyway. First off, let me explain some things about magnesium supplementation:
It is *thought* to be:
1. GABA A agonist
2. NMDA receptor antagonist
3. Calcium Channel BlockerSome common reports that I see when people use magnesium are something like this..
- generally seems to be mildly sedating / relaxing
- sometimes induces depressive feelings / lethargic feelings
- sometimes induces feelings of well beingThe issue here that some of the people here have with Mg is that it appears to sometimes have a rather contradictory ability to induce depressive feelings. I think this is due to the fact that Mg is an NMDA antagonist and a Calcium Channel Blocker. Blocking calcium channels lowers sympathetic arousal and norepinephrine levels. Acutely, this can make one feel kinda spacy, but in the long term, it appears calcium channel blocking has a mood stabilising effect. Antagonizing the NMDA receptor has anti-depressant effects but also tends to make one feel a little spacy at first - until the antidepressant effect kicks in... essentially, until the damage caused by excessive glutamate activity is undone.
I'm going to suggest the following, for the people who seem to get depressed from Mg use: maybe our bodies are so out of wack from being mildly magnesium deficient for so long that introcucing large quantities of magnesium totally disrupts the calcium channels and NMDA receptor activity - but theoretically / hopefully only for the first week or so until things re-regulate. Has anyone had the experience of magnesium kind of spacing them out at first but then have a mood leveling effect after a few more days?
It just seems so contradictory that magnesium causes depression and I really want to try to explain it away... there's just too much good evidence going for magnesium for me to think that its really not worth using.
I just started using Magnesium and I feel kind of out of it... like slow thinking, when I take too much (approx 400mg) at one time. I'm hoping this foggy feeling will go away or turn into a nicer feeling. What do you think? It definitely has acute anxiety reducing properties, just FYI... I definitely recommend it for that.
Posted by Sarah T. on September 12, 2005, at 0:57:23
In reply to For those who feel MORE depressed w. magnesium..., posted by Mistermindmasta on September 11, 2005, at 23:34:22
Hi MMM,
I have been taking Magnesium pretty regularly for about a year and a half. I think it is one of the best supplements I have taken. Actually, I think most supplements I've tried have been a waste of money. Magnesium has been very helpful; however, I have to take it at night. I did try it a few times during the day, and I was a slug and, yes, somewhat physically depressed. I've also discovered that if I take it too late at night (i.e., in the early morning hours), I can be depressed the following day. In that respect, it's a bit like an anxiolytic or a sleeping pill. I have to take it early enough at night in order for it to have the desired effect. If I take it past 2:00 a.m., I feel physically depressed the following day.
I prefer Magnesium glycinate, but Magnesium citrate is also good. Magnesium Oxide doesn't do anything for me that I'm aware of.
Thanks for your post. It was very interesting.
S.
Posted by linkadge on September 12, 2005, at 11:50:34
In reply to For those who feel MORE depressed w. magnesium..., posted by Mistermindmasta on September 11, 2005, at 23:34:22
I think you are on track. Whenever I take a drug that acutely lowers HPA axis activity, I ususally feel depressed.
We build a tollerance to the level of cortisol in our system and when there is a drop we feel depressed.
So if mag makes you acutely depressed it may because of its ability to control HPA axis.
I would start low and go slow with magnesium.
Plus I would always take it with vitamin C.
Linkadge
Posted by Mistermindmasta on September 12, 2005, at 22:09:05
In reply to Re: For those who feel MORE depressed w. magnesium..., posted by linkadge on September 12, 2005, at 11:50:34
> I think you are on track. Whenever I take a drug that acutely lowers HPA axis activity, I ususally feel depressed.
>
> We build a tollerance to the level of cortisol in our system and when there is a drop we feel depressed.
>
> So if mag makes you acutely depressed it may because of its ability to control HPA axis.
>
> I would start low and go slow with magnesium.
>
> Plus I would always take it with vitamin C.
>
>
> Linkadge
>
>
Yeah, I'm in agreement. I'd like to hear some other responses from other people on this issue...Does everyone else respond immediately with positive effects?
Respond w. positive effects over time?
Respond poorly?
Why the variation??? That's what I'm after.
Posted by pro_social_soon on September 13, 2005, at 2:44:22
In reply to Re: For those who feel MORE depressed w. magnesium..., posted by linkadge on September 12, 2005, at 11:50:34
> So if mag makes you acutely depressed it may because of its ability to control HPA axis.
>
> I would start low and go slow with magnesium.
>
> Plus I would always take it with vitamin C.
Why with Vit.C?
Posted by linkadge on September 13, 2005, at 19:30:14
In reply to Re: For those who feel MORE depressed w. magnesium... » linkadge, posted by pro_social_soon on September 13, 2005, at 2:44:22
I know that the adenal glands normally have a high composition of vitamin C and magnesium and that during stressors these two are lost quickly.
Linkadge
Posted by Sarah T. on September 13, 2005, at 23:41:36
In reply to Re: For those who feel MORE depressed w. magnesium..., posted by linkadge on September 13, 2005, at 19:30:14
> I know that the adenal glands normally have a high composition of vitamin C and magnesium and that during stressors these two are lost quickly.
> > > LinkadgeI must have very expensive urine.
Posted by Ktemene on September 14, 2005, at 6:48:55
In reply to For those who feel MORE depressed w. magnesium..., posted by Mistermindmasta on September 11, 2005, at 23:34:22
Interesting theory! It certainly fits with my experience of magnesium. When I first started taking it a few months ago the effect was dramatic. It almost felt like taking a benzo. I am pretty sure that I was magnesium deficient at that time, because I have since looked up the amount of magnesium in the food I regularly eat and there is not nearly enough in my food to supply the minimum daily requirement. After taking magnesium for a while the relaxing effect became less and less noticeable. Your theory explains that: I was making up my magnesium deficit and my body was adjusting to having the right amount of magnesium. By the by, another effect of magnesium for me is that the heart arrhythmia I have had since I was a teenager (harmless but annoying) disappeared altogether. (The arrhythmia had already been greatly reduced when I started taking fish oil. But I still felt it from time to time. Since I started magnesium I have not noticed the arrhythmia at all.)
> I have a little theory that might not have any truth to it, since I really don't know enough about neuroscience to be talking like I'm going to be talking, but I'll share it anyway. First off, let me explain some things about magnesium supplementation:
>
> It is *thought* to be:
>
> 1. GABA A agonist
> 2. NMDA receptor antagonist
> 3. Calcium Channel Blocker
>
> Some common reports that I see when people use magnesium are something like this..
>
> - generally seems to be mildly sedating / relaxing
> - sometimes induces depressive feelings / lethargic feelings
> - sometimes induces feelings of well being
>
> The issue here that some of the people here have with Mg is that it appears to sometimes have a rather contradictory ability to induce depressive feelings. I think this is due to the fact that Mg is an NMDA antagonist and a Calcium Channel Blocker. Blocking calcium channels lowers sympathetic arousal and norepinephrine levels. Acutely, this can make one feel kinda spacy, but in the long term, it appears calcium channel blocking has a mood stabilising effect. Antagonizing the NMDA receptor has anti-depressant effects but also tends to make one feel a little spacy at first - until the antidepressant effect kicks in... essentially, until the damage caused by excessive glutamate activity is undone.
>
> I'm going to suggest the following, for the people who seem to get depressed from Mg use: maybe our bodies are so out of wack from being mildly magnesium deficient for so long that introcucing large quantities of magnesium totally disrupts the calcium channels and NMDA receptor activity - but theoretically / hopefully only for the first week or so until things re-regulate. Has anyone had the experience of magnesium kind of spacing them out at first but then have a mood leveling effect after a few more days?
>
> It just seems so contradictory that magnesium causes depression and I really want to try to explain it away... there's just too much good evidence going for magnesium for me to think that its really not worth using.
>
> I just started using Magnesium and I feel kind of out of it... like slow thinking, when I take too much (approx 400mg) at one time. I'm hoping this foggy feeling will go away or turn into a nicer feeling. What do you think? It definitely has acute anxiety reducing properties, just FYI... I definitely recommend it for that.
Posted by JLx on September 14, 2005, at 19:50:16
In reply to For those who feel MORE depressed w. magnesium..., posted by Mistermindmasta on September 11, 2005, at 23:34:22
My not very scientific understanding is that if you're deficient in magnesium but getting a lot of calcium, you may not even be getting the benefit of the calcium you're taking/eating because it needs magnesium to work properly. Perhaps a sudden surge in magnesium then may actually increase calcium?
I started taking magnesium two years ago because of what I read on George Eby's website: *Rapid Recovery From Depression Using Magnesium Treatment* http://www.coldcure.com/html/dep.html He said to decrease/eliminate calcium when supplementing magnesium for depression so I basically cut it out of my diet altogether for a month or two. I had a dramatic improvement in mood, not in weeks as I expected, but within ONE day. I felt so good I quit my meds (Zoloft,Provigil) cold turkey that day and haven't taken any since. I felt a little shaky for a day but then was ok. (I know this is not recommended but I never had any prob quitting any med and they definitely felt like poison at that point and didn't work besides.)
It was many months before I felt like that previous calcium overload/magnesium deficient imbalance was righted. And during that time, taking magnesium glycinate primarily, it was not sedating to me. Now, it is, so I have to take it at night.
I would suggest that anyone not experiencing any benefit from magnesium, decreasing or eliminating calcium from the diet for a week or month, to see if that made any difference. This may be more relevant to women as we're often following that anti-osteoporosis advice to get huge amounts of calcium in our diets or by supplementation.
My other suggestion would be for people to experiment with other kinds of magnesium, such as magnesium malate which feels much less sedating to me. And fiddle with the dose, either up or down.
Otherwise I think we can assume that people are just different in how they react to it. My sister, who is not a depressive type, finds magnesium glycinate stimulating. She can't even take an Epsom salt bath without it keeping her from sleeping afterwards.
>Has anyone had the experience of magnesium kind of spacing them out at first but then have a mood leveling effect after a few more days?
Keep us posted with your own experience.
> It just seems so contradictory that magnesium causes depression and I really want to try to explain it away... there's just too much good evidence going for magnesium for me to think that its really not worth using.
I agree, especially as there are other benefits to the body such as helping prevent diabetes and heart disease.
Magnesium for me is DIRECTLY related to suicidal ideation and feelings too. Since I started taking it I don't experience that special circle of hell.
> I just started using Magnesium and I feel kind of out of it... like slow thinking, when I take too much (approx 400mg) at one time. I'm hoping this foggy feeling will go away or turn into a nicer feeling. What do you think? It definitely has acute anxiety reducing properties, just FYI... I definitely recommend it for that.
What kind of mg does this and have you tried any other?
JL
Posted by Mistermindmasta on September 14, 2005, at 23:47:05
In reply to Calcium magnesium ratio? » Mistermindmasta, posted by JLx on September 14, 2005, at 19:50:16
> My not very scientific understanding is that if you're deficient in magnesium but getting a lot of calcium, you may not even be getting the benefit of the calcium you're taking/eating because it needs magnesium to work properly. Perhaps a sudden surge in magnesium then may actually increase calcium?
That might be possible, too, I didn't think about that. I have read several places that magnesium is necessary for proper calcium utilization.
>
> I started taking magnesium two years ago because of what I read on George Eby's website: *Rapid Recovery From Depression Using Magnesium Treatment* http://www.coldcure.com/html/dep.htmlYeah, that has a big influence on me, too. He seems to have a lot of decent references.
>He said to decrease/eliminate calcium when supplementing magnesium for depression so I basically cut it out of my diet altogether for a month or two. I had a dramatic improvement in mood, not in weeks as I expected, but within ONE day. I felt so good I quit my meds (Zoloft,Provigil) cold turkey that day and haven't taken any since. I felt a little shaky for a day but then was ok. (I know this is not recommended but I never had any prob quitting any med and they definitely felt like poison at that point and didn't work besides.)
>I cannot take calcium at all. None. I guess I'm hoping I get enough from my diet alone - veggies and alternative grains. But anyway, if I take calcium supps I DEFINITELY feel down, depressed, lethargic, dark feelings. Can't take it. I never understood and still don't understand why I'm so sensitive. Most people with anxiety / depressive disorders cant take calcium and have some sort of metabolic imbalance with the way their body uses calcium. Not the mention that calcium excess in neurons can increase the rate of glutamate induced neurotoxicity... whether too much calcium from supps/diet actually contributes, I don't know.
> It was many months before I felt like that previous calcium overload/magnesium deficient imbalance was righted. And during that time, taking magnesium glycinate primarily, it was not sedating to me. Now, it is, so I have to take it at night.
>Interesting that you say it's not sedating to you.
> I would suggest that anyone not experiencing any benefit from magnesium, decreasing or eliminating calcium from the diet for a week or month, to see if that made any difference. This may be more relevant to women as we're often following that anti-osteoporosis advice to get huge amounts of calcium in our diets or by supplementation.
>
> My other suggestion would be for people to experiment with other kinds of magnesium, such as magnesium malate which feels much less sedating to me. And fiddle with the dose, either up or down.
>I tried that in the past, sporadically, and don't recall it being too sedating.
> Otherwise I think we can assume that people are just different in how they react to it. My sister, who is not a depressive type, finds magnesium glycinate stimulating. She can't even take an Epsom salt bath without it keeping her from sleeping afterwards.
>I never have problems sleeping, unless its the middle of the day.
> Magnesium for me is DIRECTLY related to suicidal ideation and feelings too. Since I started taking it I don't experience that special circle of hell.>
> > I just started using Magnesium and I feel kind of out of it... like slow thinking, when I take too much (approx 400mg) at one time. I'm hoping this foggy feeling will go away or turn into a nicer feeling. What do you think? It definitely has acute anxiety reducing properties, just FYI... I definitely recommend it for that.
>
> What kind of mg does this and have you tried any other?
>If I do 800 mg / day for like 3 days straight, I'll be EXTREMELY sedated (VERY VERY SEDATED!!!) and lethargic... but nicely lowers anxiety (what with being close to unconscious and all... ha). I can only tolerate 200 mg in the morning and 200 mg at night, this seems to make me feel less spaced out.
I've tried Mg malate and asporotate. The asporotate form I remember making me spacy too, but I remember being calm and more stable, like the glycinate form. I plan on trying the taurate form next.
I'm going to stick with 200 mg / day and 200 mg / night. At the least, I'm assuming I can slowly build the levels in my body over the course of several months. *Most people* don't become rectified of magnesium deficiency in 3 days or anything, so I'll keep taking it and see how I feel.
BTW, I started supplementing iron today. I've read numerous studies on how it can help cognitive function and fatigue in people who are not even anemic. I don't want to be doctor to myself, but I look at things this way:
In the typical american diet of fortified foods and whatnot, it is easy to get 500% RDA of iron. I don't eat fortified foods and I eat foods high in fiber (phytates bind iron and Mg), and foods high in oxalates and tannins (also bind Iron and Mg). I eat a lot of buckwheat, quinoa, brown rice, oatmeal, nuts and sometimes tea / guarana / coffee. Thus, I figure, unless I have the genetics for iron overload, i'd probably be good getting a little more iron. At the least, i still won't get as much iron as the typical american diet People who eat high fiber diets often are lower in iron.... so, maybe it'll help my short term memory, since that kinda stinks.
Right now, the only nutrients that want to be sure to get are enough of zinc, iron and magnesium, and possibly selenium.
Posted by JLx on September 15, 2005, at 14:07:34
In reply to Re: Calcium magnesium ratio?, posted by Mistermindmasta on September 14, 2005, at 23:47:05
> > My not very scientific understanding is that if you're deficient in magnesium but getting a lot of calcium, you may not even be getting the benefit of the calcium you're taking/eating because it needs magnesium to work properly. Perhaps a sudden surge in magnesium then may actually increase calcium?
>
> That might be possible, too, I didn't think about that. I have read several places that magnesium is necessary for proper calcium utilization.It's a real shame that this message isn't getting out more, both for psychiatric conditions and also for women trying to prevent osteoporosis. Asian countries where the tradition diet is 4 times ours in magnesium, but relatively low in calcium have much less osteopororis than dairy eating Western countries which have the most.
> I cannot take calcium at all. None. I guess I'm hoping I get enough from my diet alone - veggies and alternative grains. But anyway, if I take calcium supps I DEFINITELY feel down, depressed, lethargic, dark feelings. Can't take it. I never understood and still don't understand why I'm so sensitive. Most people with anxiety / depressive disorders cant take calcium and have some sort of metabolic imbalance with the way their body uses calcium. Not the mention that calcium excess in neurons can increase the rate of glutamate induced neurotoxicity... whether too much calcium from supps/diet actually contributes, I don't know.That's what I had understood -- that calcium is an excitotoxin when out of balance. You've probably read this article, if not here it is:
Excitotoxins - the ultimate brainslayer by James South MA
http://smart-drugs.net/ias-excitotoxins.htm
> > It was many months before I felt like that previous calcium overload/magnesium deficient imbalance was righted. And during that time, taking magnesium glycinate primarily, it was not sedating to me. Now, it is, so I have to take it at night.
> >
>
> Interesting that you say it's not sedating to you.It is now, but it was not for over a year. Mg glycinate anyway. I don't notice mg malate so much being sedating. I thought that suggested that something took a whole year to calm down to more normal.
> > My other suggestion would be for people to experiment with other kinds of magnesium, such as magnesium malate which feels much less sedating to me. And fiddle with the dose, either up or down.
> >
>
> I tried that in the past, sporadically, and don't recall it being too sedating.I'm going to try magnesium orotate next. Just ordered some from Beyond a Century. See previous discussion on uridine on this board, esp. Larry's posts re orotic acid.
The gist of the uridine thread http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20050323/msgs/481903.html began with this article about uridine and fish oil: http://cms.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20050325-000002.html
They're trying to come up with a drug, but in looking for a natural alternative, it appears that CDP choline and orotic acid, especially magnesium orotate, may also boost uridine which apparently reduces arachidonic acid.
> > > I just started using Magnesium and I feel kind of out of it... like slow thinking, when I take too much (approx 400mg) at one time. I'm hoping this foggy feeling will go away or turn into a nicer feeling. What do you think? It definitely has acute anxiety reducing properties, just FYI... I definitely recommend it for that.
Hmm...could the magnesium be potentiating the action of something else you're taking?
> BTW, I started supplementing iron today. I've read numerous studies on how it can help cognitive function and fatigue in people who are not even anemic. I don't want to be doctor to myself, but I look at things this way:
I'm sure you know the risks, and you can always go give blood if you become overloaded.
>People who eat high fiber diets often are lower in iron.... so, maybe it'll help my short term memory, since that kinda stinks.
If you don't know already from experience, it only gets worse after 40. ;)
JL
Posted by KaraS on September 15, 2005, at 22:25:31
In reply to Re: Calcium magnesium ratio? » Mistermindmasta, posted by JLx on September 15, 2005, at 14:07:34
Hi,
I would love to try that experiment but I always end up with severe leg cramps at night - even just a couple of days without taking calcium supplements. Right now I'm taking 500 mg. of calcium and 500 mg. of magnesium citrate each night. I've tried magnesium taurate as well. I don't perceive any antidepressant value from it.
Do you know if the leg cramps mean that I need all of that calcium or is there something else I could take to prevent them? I'd like to be able to stop the calcium and just experiment with the magnesium.
K
Posted by JLx on September 15, 2005, at 23:10:02
In reply to Re: Calcium magnesium ratio? » JLx, posted by KaraS on September 15, 2005, at 22:25:31
> Hi,
>
> I would love to try that experiment but I always end up with severe leg cramps at night - even just a couple of days without taking calcium supplements. Right now I'm taking 500 mg. of calcium and 500 mg. of magnesium citrate each night. I've tried magnesium taurate as well. I don't perceive any antidepressant value from it.
>
> Do you know if the leg cramps mean that I need all of that calcium or is there something else I could take to prevent them? I'd like to be able to stop the calcium and just experiment with the magnesium.
>
> KIt could be that you just can't cut down on calcium. Or there may be other considerations to experiment with.
I've been having leg cramps lately and thought it was because I've been taking mg taurate instead of my usual mg glycinate. It's probably not calcium in my case as I've been eating more calcium foods lately. In fact, according to this site, dairy foods can be a culprit. Probably what's causing mine then.
http://www.digitalnaturopath.com/cond/C466089.html
It also mentions Vit E. And sodium and potassium. Most of us don't need sodium, but I have taken 99mg potassium at night when I've been trying to sort out whether it's magnesium, calcium or what I need. That was more for those little paresthesia-like feelings than outright cramps though.
Tonight I'm switching back to mg glycinate. Actually it's a glycinate, lysinate, biopterine combo that I just spotted at iherb.
I'm not impressed with mg taurate.
Have you tried mg glycinate? I just found out that glycine is a NMDA receptor agonist. Perhaps that's why some of us find that particular kind of mg more calming and helpful for depression than mg taurate or any of the others. Glycine is also supposed to relax the back, maybe it does the legs too.
Vit D potentiates calcium, I believe, perhaps if adding some of that you could cut down calcium.
Check this out from a Google Answer:
"One current theory on the
cause of restless legs syndrome involves a deficiency in a brain
chemical called dopamine." http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=553664Don't you have some kind of dopamine receptor abnormality? IIRC
Also on that page:
"Vitamin B complex may be helpful."
My sister, who finds magnesium so stimulating, also finds calcium relaxing and takes it at night.
Maybe calcium is just right for you.
JL
Posted by KaraS on September 17, 2005, at 23:12:11
In reply to Re: Calcium/magnesium, leg cramps » KaraS, posted by JLx on September 15, 2005, at 23:10:02
> > Hi,
> >
> > I would love to try that experiment but I always end up with severe leg cramps at night - even just a couple of days without taking calcium supplements. Right now I'm taking 500 mg. of calcium and 500 mg. of magnesium citrate each night. I've tried magnesium taurate as well. I don't perceive any antidepressant value from it.
> >
> > Do you know if the leg cramps mean that I need all of that calcium or is there something else I could take to prevent them? I'd like to be able to stop the calcium and just experiment with the magnesium.
> >
> > K
>
> It could be that you just can't cut down on calcium. Or there may be other considerations to experiment with.
>
> I've been having leg cramps lately and thought it was because I've been taking mg taurate instead of my usual mg glycinate. It's probably not calcium in my case as I've been eating more calcium foods lately. In fact, according to this site, dairy foods can be a culprit. Probably what's causing mine then.
I definitely need to do more experimentation.
I've been getting more dairy in my diet lately so maybe I'll try cutting out the calcium supplements. Now if dairy foods can be the culprit, then that makes the whole thing very confusing. We'd have to find a way to get enough calcium without dairy or supplements.http://www.digitalnaturopath.com/cond/C466089.html
>
> It also mentions Vit E. And sodium and potassium. Most of us don't need sodium, but I have taken 99mg potassium at night when I've been trying to sort out whether it's magnesium, calcium or what I need. That was more for those little paresthesia-like feelings than outright cramps though.
>
> Tonight I'm switching back to mg glycinate. Actually it's a glycinate, lysinate, biopterine combo that I just spotted at iherb.Thanks for the link. I saw that combo you mentioned from iHerb. Let me know how it works for you. I'm always wary of tablets. Never know if they're going to break down enough for absorption.
> I'm not impressed with mg taurate.
>
> Have you tried mg glycinate? I just found out that glycine is a NMDA receptor agonist. Perhaps that's why some of us find that particular kind of mg more calming and helpful for depression than mg taurate or any of the others. Glycine is also supposed to relax the back, maybe it does the legs too.
I haven't tried the glycinate. I'll add that to my list. I also haven't tried using more than 500 mg. of magnesium. That might help me regulate my sleep cycle as well.
> Vit D potentiates calcium, I believe, perhaps if adding some of that you could cut down calcium.
I used to take Vitamin D but rain out and didn't renew it. I just reordered it again yesterday.
> Check this out from a Google Answer:
>
> "One current theory on the
> cause of restless legs syndrome involves a deficiency in a brain
> chemical called dopamine." http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=553664
>
> Don't you have some kind of dopamine receptor abnormality? IIRC
I may have hypersensitive dopamine autoreceptors but I'm not certain that those can't be "fixed".
I used to have RLS but haven't had any problems with it since I went off of Effexor.btw, what does IIRC mean?
>
> Also on that page:
>
> "Vitamin B complex may be helpful."
>
> My sister, who finds magnesium so stimulating, also finds calcium relaxing and takes it at night.
I find it so strange that it can have such different effects on people, especially sisters, although I guess it's not different than how people respond to medications.
> Maybe calcium is just right for you.
Could be. Maybe with more experimentation I'll find that out for sure.Thanks for your help.
Kara
Posted by JLx on September 19, 2005, at 6:21:19
In reply to Re: Calcium/magnesium, leg cramps » JLx, posted by KaraS on September 17, 2005, at 23:12:11
> I definitely need to do more experimentation.
> I've been getting more dairy in my diet lately so maybe I'll try cutting out the calcium supplements. Now if dairy foods can be the culprit, then that makes the whole thing very confusing. We'd have to find a way to get enough calcium without dairy or supplements.Well, you probably know my view by now. I think we've been sold a bill of goods about calcium, promoted by the dairy industry. Osteoporosis is highest in countries that consume a lot of dairy and lowest in Asian countries that don't but who DO get lots of magnesium in their diets. This is correlation, not necessarily causation, but the other fact remains that osteoporosis has not been declining despite our decades of consuming calcium. I do think calcium is important when young, however. And I think we need some, just not as much as we've been told, or at least that it should be balanced in 1:1 ratio with magnesium. Maybe even 1:2.
There's some calcium in foods such as potatoes and in water, if you have hard water or use bottled water some of which has fairly high calcium content.
> Thanks for the link. I saw that combo you mentioned from iHerb. Let me know how it works for you. I'm always wary of tablets. Never know if they're going to break down enough for absorption.I know what you mean, but hope for the best. I can usually tell when the tabs are starting to dissolve. These high absorption tabs don't feel different to me than Carlson's mg glycinate, perhaps less so. I hope that means they are just more gradual.
I have mg glycinate that I bought from Beyond a Century in powder form. It tastes terrible. I still don't have one of those fill-your-own capsule devices.
> I used to take Vitamin D but rain out and didn't renew it. I just reordered it again yesterday.Taking Vit D can increase need for magnesium. I found that out the hard way this summer. That was the only effect I could feel from more D but maybe I should have stuck with it. That's one I wish I could afford to have tested.
> btw, what does IIRC mean?If I recall correctly.
> I find it so strange that it can have such different effects on people, especially sisters, although I guess it's not different than how people respond to medications.
When it comes to body things we are almost complete opposites. We must share some genes, but you wouldn't know it! :)
> Could be. Maybe with more experimentation I'll find that out for sure.
Probably worth a shot.
JL
Posted by Sarah T. on September 20, 2005, at 0:02:55
In reply to Re: Calcium/magnesium, leg cramps » KaraS, posted by JLx on September 15, 2005, at 23:10:02
Hi. You said that Magnesium is an NMDA receptor agonist. I believe it is an NMDA receptor antagonist. Correct me if I'm wrong!
Posted by JLx on September 20, 2005, at 7:08:39
In reply to Re: Calcium/magnesium, leg cramps » JLx, posted by Sarah T. on September 20, 2005, at 0:02:55
Posted by KaraS on September 24, 2005, at 1:40:50
In reply to Re: Calcium/magnesium, leg cramps » KaraS, posted by JLx on September 19, 2005, at 6:21:19
> Well, you probably know my view by now. I think we've been sold a bill of goods about calcium, promoted by the dairy industry. Osteoporosis is highest in countries that consume a lot of dairy and lowest in Asian countries that don't but who DO get lots of magnesium in their diets. This is correlation, not necessarily causation, but the other fact remains that osteoporosis has not been declining despite our decades of consuming calcium. I do think calcium is important when young, however. And I think we need some, just not as much as we've been told, or at least that it should be balanced in 1:1 ratio with magnesium. Maybe even 1:2.
I think they're responsible for part of the pressure to take calcium but it doesn't do the dairy industry any good to have people taking 1000 mg. of it in capsule form. I think that there has to be more behind that than just the dairy industry. What that may be I don't know but I'd bet that someone is making money from it. I haven't taken the 1 gram amount of calcium in a while because I'm not convinced that it's necessary either. I've been taking enough (500 mg.) to stop the leg cramps but that's it.
> There's some calcium in foods such as potatoes and in water, if you have hard water or use bottled water some of which has fairly high calcium content.I believe broccoli and some green vegetables have a lot of calcium too now that I think about it.
> > Thanks for the link. I saw that combo you mentioned from iHerb. Let me know how it works for you. I'm always wary of tablets. Never know if they're going to break down enough for absorption.
>
> I know what you mean, but hope for the best. I can usually tell when the tabs are starting to dissolve. These high absorption tabs don't feel different to me than Carlson's mg glycinate, perhaps less so. I hope that means they are just more gradual.
We probably can't be certain that capsules will be absorbed either though maybe the chances are better.
> I have mg glycinate that I bought from Beyond a Century in powder form. It tastes terrible. I still don't have one of those fill-your-own capsule devices.
I don't have one of those devices yet either so I've been staying away from the powder form. I should really invest in one. It would probably pay for itself rather quickly.
> > I used to take Vitamin D but rain out and didn't renew it. I just reordered it again yesterday.
>
> Taking Vit D can increase need for magnesium. I found that out the hard way this summer. That was the only effect I could feel from more D but maybe I should have stuck with it. That's one I wish I could afford to have tested.
I'll keep that in mind now that my magnesium and vitamin D are on their way. I ordered my usual magnesium citrate but I also got a bottle of magnesium malate. Have you ever tried that one? I thought it might be good for me since I sometimes have CFS symptoms.
> > btw, what does IIRC mean?
>
> If I recall correctly.
Thanks. :)
> > I find it so strange that it can have such different effects on people, especially sisters, although I guess it's not different than how people respond to medications.
>
> When it comes to body things we are almost complete opposites. We must share some genes, but you wouldn't know it! :)Funny how that works out sometimes.
Let me ask you one more question. I was reading some of your posts below about taking selenium for mercury poisoning. I take 100 mcg in with my multiple but I think I read that there's something else in the multiple that might prevent it's absorption. I can't remember if it's vitamin E. That's probably not enough to help with mercury poisoning, is it? When I try to take selenium separately, it makes me quite nauseous. Is there anything else that I could take instead?
k
Posted by JLx on September 30, 2005, at 22:10:52
In reply to Re: Calcium/magnesium, leg cramps » JLx, posted by KaraS on September 24, 2005, at 1:40:50
> I think they're responsible for part of the pressure to take calcium but it doesn't do the dairy industry any good to have people taking 1000 mg. of it in capsule form. I think that there has to be more behind that than just the dairy industry. What that may be I don't know but I'd bet that someone is making money from it. I haven't taken the 1 gram amount of calcium in a while because I'm not convinced that it's necessary either. I've been taking enough (500 mg.) to stop the leg cramps but that's it.The dairy council finances some of the research, I know, but you're right, it's not the whole picture. The mentality in the medical establishment is definitely in favor of calcium. And very little about magnesium, which I found amazing when I read of all the solid research about some things such as magnesium and heart disease and diabetes. In "The Magnesium Factor" especially.
> I believe broccoli and some green vegetables have a lot of calcium too now that I think about it.Kale is the big one. Ugh. ;)
> I'll keep that in mind now that my magnesium and vitamin D are on their way. I ordered my usual magnesium citrate but I also got a bottle of magnesium malate. Have you ever tried that one? I thought it might be good for me since I sometimes have CFS symptoms.
Yes, I've tried it and like it ok. I don't notice much about it, except it's less sedating than mg glycinate.> Let me ask you one more question. I was reading some of your posts below about taking selenium for mercury poisoning. I take 100 mcg in with my multiple but I think I read that there's something else in the multiple that might prevent it's absorption. I can't remember if it's vitamin E. That's probably not enough to help with mercury poisoning, is it? When I try to take selenium separately, it makes me quite nauseous. Is there anything else that I could take instead?
Selenium's the thing as far as I know. Have you tried another form of it? Some has yeast and some not.
Not sure what in the multi could be preventing absorption of selenium.
"Best taken: in a combination formula with vitamins C and E (selenium enhances the action of vitamin E) and B vitamins (which enhance the absorption of selenium). Take first thing in the morning or last thing at night on an empty stomach for maximum absorption, but can also be taken with food." http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/healthy_living/complementary_medicine/remedies_minerals.shtml
Hmm...didn't know that about empty stomach.
JL
Posted by KaraS on October 2, 2005, at 20:41:17
In reply to Re: Calcium/magnesium, selenium » KaraS, posted by JLx on September 30, 2005, at 22:10:52
> The dairy council finances some of the research, I know, but you're right, it's not the whole picture. The mentality in the medical establishment is definitely in favor of calcium. And very little about magnesium, which I found amazing when I read of all the solid research about some things such as magnesium and heart disease and diabetes. In "The Magnesium Factor" especially.
I agree. The more I read about magnesium, the more convinced I am of its significance in preventing osteoporosis.
> > I believe broccoli and some green vegetables have a lot of calcium too now that I think about it.
>
> Kale is the big one. Ugh. ;)
Fortunately I like that.
> > I'll keep that in mind now that my magnesium and vitamin D are on their way. I ordered my usual magnesium citrate but I also got a bottle of magnesium malate. Have you ever tried that one? I thought it might be good for me since I sometimes have CFS symptoms.
>
> Yes, I've tried it and like it ok. I don't notice much about it, except it's less sedating than mg glycinate.
I'll have to try the glycinate next. How are you liking the one you ordered from iHerb?
> Selenium's the thing as far as I know. Have you tried another form of it? Some has yeast and some not.
I can't remember. I think I tried the form without yeast but I'll have to do the experiment again to be sure.
k
Posted by JLx on October 3, 2005, at 10:58:45
In reply to Re: Calcium/magnesium, selenium » JLx, posted by KaraS on October 2, 2005, at 20:41:17
> I'll have to try the glycinate next. How are you liking the one you ordered from iHerb?
It's ok. It doesn't seem "special". I'll probably go back to Carlson's brand.
> I can't remember. I think I tried the form without yeast but I'll have to do the experiment again to be sure.Last month I experimented with a kind new to me, called "Activated Selenium (Methylselenocysteine)" by Jarrow. http://www.iherb.com/selenium.html It's from broccoli and has a little Vit E and B2 in with it. I didn't notice any difference in how it feels to me, but perhaps you might find it more tolerable.
My foot cramps have been better since I'm taking Vit D again. I had ran out and didn't make the connection until I bought some more. Then I wondered if it would help and sure enough. I know Vit D helps with calcium absorption. Otherwise, I can't think why it should help.
You were on that previous Vit D thread, I believe. Have you increased your intake and noticed any positive effect?
I started out taking 2,000 IU/day of Vit D earlier in the summer. Tried to get a bit more sun too but probably didn't overall from previous years. I thought then that I felt a little more balanced hormonally, in some indescribable way. But the extra Vit D screws up my positive magnesium effect, not that I made that connection right away. I think I may drop back down a bit now, since I can't say I have been noticeably less depressed this summer.
I wish I could afford to just get it tested.
JL
Posted by KaraS on October 6, 2005, at 20:47:22
In reply to Re: Selenium, Vitamin D » KaraS, posted by JLx on October 3, 2005, at 10:58:45
> > I'll have to try the glycinate next. How are you liking the one you ordered from iHerb?
>
> It's ok. It doesn't seem "special". I'll probably go back to Carlson's brand.
Good to know. I'll try the Carlson's next when I try the glycinate version.
> Last month I experimented with a kind new to me, called "Activated Selenium (Methylselenocysteine)" by Jarrow. http://www.iherb.com/selenium.html It's from broccoli and has a little Vit E and B2 in with it. I didn't notice any difference in how it feels to me, but perhaps you might find it more tolerable.
I don't think I tried an activated one. Maybe I could tolerate that one better. I'll definitely try it next. You always have so much good information to share!
> My foot cramps have been better since I'm taking Vit D again. I had ran out and didn't make the connection until I bought some more. Then I wondered if it would help and sure enough. I know Vit D helps with calcium absorption. Otherwise, I can't think why it should help.
>
> You were on that previous Vit D thread, I believe. Have you increased your intake and noticed any positive effect?
I've started taking 1000 IU on days that I don't get any sunshine. Previously I was taking it daily. I didn't notice much at that time but I think it will at least prevent a worsening of depression from not enough sun light. Hmmm, I wonder if it would have any effect on my foot cramps as well. I'll have to do some experiments.
> I started out taking 2,000 IU/day of Vit D earlier in the summer. Tried to get a bit more sun too but probably didn't overall from previous years. I thought then that I felt a little more balanced hormonally, in some indescribable way. But the extra Vit D screws up my positive magnesium effect, not that I made that connection right away. I think I may drop back down a bit now, since I can't say I have been noticeably less depressed this summer.
>
>
>>> I wish I could afford to just get it tested.
I don't know who wrote the line above, whether it was you or me. Have you ever been tested for vitamin D? It's really expensive. I'd really like to have it done. As it is I really don't know if it hasn't helped much because I'm not deficient or whether I'm very deficient and the amount I was taking was only a drop in the bucket so it didn't change much. So frustrating!K
Posted by JLx on October 7, 2005, at 7:07:08
In reply to Re: Selenium, Vitamin D » JLx, posted by KaraS on October 6, 2005, at 20:47:22
> >>> I wish I could afford to just get it tested.
>
>
> I don't know who wrote the line above, whether it was you or me. Have you ever been tested for vitamin D? It's really expensive. I'd really like to have it done. As it is I really don't know if it hasn't helped much because I'm not deficient or whether I'm very deficient and the amount I was taking was only a drop in the bucket so it didn't change much. So frustrating!That was me, I've never been tested. And yes, that is exactly the frustration.
Another thing I noticed since resuming the Vit D is that I'm less inclined towards the dairy, which is something I'd like to stay away from. But for a while there, I was really craving it. I didn't put that together with running out of Vit D either. I think I need to be a better monitor of my symptoms!
JL
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