![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 13 to 37 of 55. Go back in thread:
Posted by TamW on May 8, 2005, at 15:06:23
In reply to Re: Anyone sea that infomercial for Sea Vegg?, posted by Thorp on May 6, 2005, at 11:09:58
I just got the Sea Vegg and started it today and I did read about the Limu and I do like what the sea vegg has to offer but will continue the research. The Limu does not have much in the iodine which might be a good thing for others like my self who are Hypo thyroid and who can not take Iodine products. But I am interested to see how well this product works before trying any other product at this time. I am interested in natural products for Thyroid Disorder mainly, that don't make me have panic attacks symptoms like the thyroid drugs that they Dr.s try to get you to take can't take them I am too sensitive to Thyroid Hormon durgs. Thanks for the info though
Posted by vitaqueen on May 16, 2005, at 10:42:03
In reply to Re: Anyone sea that infomercial for Sea Vegg?, posted by David L. on April 29, 2005, at 10:53:02
I hope someone can help me with this. I just saw the infomercial on Sea Vegg and was quite intrigued so I ordered it. Ironically, while visiting my favorite grocery store (Whole Foods) this weekend, I noticed a strange looking dish in their deli line and when I asked what it was, I was told it was seaweed. I asked to sample it, but I was not thrilled with the taste. My acupuncturist also praises the benefits of seaweed, so when I saw this infomercial, I felt I was destined to buy it.
Now this is where I need some advice. I had a triple bypass in March 2003. I started to feel pretty terrific when I was exercising and losing weight, but soon became very fatigued and with a lot of leg and muscle pains, so I stopped the exercise and the weight soon began to go up.
Since last November, I quit taking all prescribed medications (particularly Crestor & Prevacid) because I was feeling so poorly, and instead went on a rigorous course of vitamins, minerals, and supplements . . . based on a book I read by Ray Strand M.D. "What Your Dr. Doesn't Know About Nutritional Medicine May Be Killing You." I have never felt better in my life and have absolutely no more problems with acid reflux, leg pains, fatigue, and chronic body aches. My cholesterol (which shot up to 498 when I went off the Crestor) is now down to 298 on Red Yeast Rice and acupuncture, but the biggest improvement was in my homocysteine level, which went from 13.5 to 9.
The problem is that I would prefer not to take 26 vitamin/mineral pills a day, and it is quite costly. I'm wondering if this Sea Vegg (or something else perhaps some of you may know about), could give me the same health benefits, and maybe I can discontinue taking some of the other supplements.
I am now taking daily CoQ10 (100mg), B-complex with all cofactors (100mg), Vit E (400iu), alpha lipoic acid (100mg), Vit C (3000 mg), Folic Acid (800 mcg), Milk Thistle (200 mg), Selenium (200 mcg), lycopene/lutein/carotene (500 mcg), grape seed extract (200 mg), calcium/mag (500 mg), vanadium (5000 mcg), manganese (8 mg), L-glutatione (20 mg) chromium (200 mg), red yeast rice (2400 mg) and garlic.
I'm afraid to stop taking any of these because I've been feeling so great, but a life long course of this is going to put me in the poor house. Any suggestions??????? Could Sea Vegg be the answer?
Posted by Thorp on May 17, 2005, at 0:19:41
In reply to Re: Anyone sea that infomercial for Sea Vegg?, posted by vitaqueen on May 16, 2005, at 10:42:03
The infomercial by Scott Kennedy is a powerful and much needed teaching on the airways of the spectacular nutritional value of seaweed. The Sea Vegg that Scott Kennedy promotes in the infomercial, however, as Scott Kennedy himself explains in the infomercial, is nothing more than an assortment of 12 different dried seaweeds in a capsule.
If one can buy fresh seaweed at a health food store such as Whole Foods, why would he want to waste his money on a tiny capsule of dried up seaweed known as Sea Vegg as recommended by Scott Kennedy in his infomercial. Nevertheless, even that small amount of seaweed still has some value as well as fresh seaweed but neither comes even close to the ultimate natural product, Original Limu (www.limunight.originallimu.com). Rita Elkins, a prolific author on natural health products, has written an excellent booklet, Limu Moui, that has sold well into the millions and is available in health food stores, where she recommends an extract (page 26) of the seaweed Limu Moui, which possesses (page 10) “one of the highest fucoidan contents when compared to other marine algae.” And, of course, the optimal non-chemical natural extract formulation is Original Limu.
Fucoidan is found only in sea-based plants. Besides all the other tremendous nutritious components in Limu Moui including vitamins, amino acids, essential fatty acids, anti-oxidants, glyconutrients, live enzymes, and particularly the whole spectrum of minerals and trace elements in colloidal form found in the sea which our blood emulates, and still others, the fucoidan in Limu Moui stands out as perhaps the greatest nutrient and immune booster ever discovered. The scientific and medical establishment is taking an ever greater interest as well as the studies on fucoidan have been growing exponentially since the mid-1970’s in the database of the National Library of Medicine at www.pubmed.gov. Anyone can go to this database and search the word fucoidan and turn up now over 600 studies and can narrow those studies to issues of interest simply by adding an additional word or more like cancer or tumor or tumors or carcinogen or carcinoma, immune, blood or platelets or leukocyte, inflammation or inflammatory, liver or hepatitis, lung or pulmonary, heart or cardiovascular, pancreatic or diabetes or insulin, virus or viral, bacteria or bacterial, wound or wounds, surgery, skin or dermatitis or dermal, etc.
So why is Original Limu (www.limunight.originallimu.com) the best source of this Limu Moui extract? It is for very good reason that Original Limu is called the one, the only, the original! It is the only proprietary non-chemical optimized extract on the market with proven value having over 15 years of research and development supporting it. It is also harvested from the pristine pure waters of the Tongan Islands of the South Pacific where there are no pollutants or heavy metals contaminating the water due to industry or large-scale agriculture. On the contrary, Scott Kennedy explained that the Sea Vegg was harvested in the North Atlantic as I remember.
All the other seaweed products, like Sea Vegg, that seem to be multiplying monthly, are just trying to jockey for position for attracting the uninformed. And, what a shame that people will be side-tracked from what looks to be the greatest health discovery of our time, Original Limu. Our wretched Western diet polluted with preservatives and additives and sugar substitutes, etc. and our society’s one-dimensional focus on the economics of food distribution such as shelf life and premature harvesting almost totally eclipses any nutritional focus. Also, our Western culture almost single-mindedly focuses on medicine that almost exclusively treats only the symptom and not the basis or underlying cause of a disease. With this in mind, Original Limu is, in all reality, a Godsend for our nation and a world that we Westerners have infected with our poor nutritional and pill-pushing culture.
Our bodies were designed for a particular kind of care including good, wholesome and complete foods and such is available in spades through Original Limu. If we feed the body what it needs, it can regulate its chemical machinery and heals itself as it was designed to do as evidenced by cut on our finger healing itself or our overcoming a cold or flu with just rest and plenty of water. In fact, that is what medicine is suppose to be all about, helping the body heal itself! Hippocrates is the Father of Modern Day Medicine with all doctors having to take the Hippocratic oath. Hippocrates says “Let food be your medicine and your medicine be your food.” Our Western diet miserably misses the mark! And in spite of his cautioning, “Above all, do no harm,” we poison ourselves with the often-horrendous side effects of man-made medicines that are promoted shamelessly on the airways by the pharmaceutical companies hoping that they can make the advertising enticement so powerful that people will in essence self-prescribe by going doctor shopping until they get what was promoted to them over the airways.
Regarding comments about Dr. Strand and his recommendation of the USANA supplements, I respect him as a doctor for his nutritional perspective and I have personally tried USANA supplements and found them valuable but nothing like Original Limu. USANA supplements are a product of man and his science; Original Limu is a natural product from the Creator, who has the full picture of our needs and the exact amounts needed. I have also tried natural products like Barley Green or Barley Life also with some value but again nothing like Original Limu. I have shopped for organic foods but they are nothing next to Original Limu. I have heard of Noni and Mangosteen and green teas, etc. None of these are sea-based natural products and, thus, none of them have the whole spectrum of minerals and trace elements nor, most importantly, do they contain fucoidan and none of them hold a candle to Original Limu. Nothing in the health and wellness industry compares to Original Limu outside of good health practices like good nutrition, plenty of rest, plenty of exercise, plenty of pure water and fresh air drawn deeply into the lungs, sunshine, temperance and trust in God.
Now, I rarely take anything else but Original Limu and save a bundle of money and experience incredible, even miraculous health as in the case of the throbbing pain in my right arm disappearing where decompression with fusing surgery on my 3-5th cervical vertebrae was unsuccessful. My skin is vibrant and no longer a flaky mess. My sinuses and asthma are back under control. I sleep much better. I have more energy. Even my toe and finger nails are supple and healthy again. And, if ever I do come down with something by pushing myself too hard, the immune-boosting anti-viral, anti-bacterial and anti-inflammatory functions of the fucoidan gets me over it in a day or two without my ever having to see a doctor or get an anti-inflammatory and antibiotic. The savings alone in doctor bills and supplement costs easily pays for my Original Limu. Anyway, I simply cannot live without Original Limu!
Email me at tfbail@sbcglobal.net or call me at 979-297-1919 and I will tell you of more stories I know about first hand, even of those with whom I have shared first-hand myself as with my son with acne and ADD / ADHD, a friend with multiple sclerosis and also a hypothyroid condition, another friend with hepatitis C, another with high cholesterol, triglycerides and LDL/HLDL ratio, another with migraine headaches, another with sinus headaches, another with chronic fatigue, another with an open wound in his leg for over 20 years without healing, another with scar tissue from adolescent acne fading away in her mid forties, another person experiencing her tumors and cancer receding and disappearing, another being better able to cope with chemotherapy and radiation treatment, another coming back from short-term memory loss and dementia, another with disabilities from two car accidents involving drunk drivers and high blood pressure and high blood sugar, and the stories keep unfolding daily and I haven’t even mentioned the many stories of other people outside those with whom I have personally shared Original Limu. We now have a physician in our area who is directing his patients to Original Limu as he sees the hopelessness of the over-medication that Western medication has to offer as in the case of one medication being prescribed merely to mitigate the side effects of another medication!
I will conclude by making it clear that I am not a medical doctor. I only hold a Ph.D. degree in organic chemistry and have been in active personal study of the health and wellness industry since 1997 when I was getting sick more often and required an anti-inflammatory in order for prescribed antibiotics to work. Thus, I do not or will not prescribe, treat, diagnose in regards to any disease or condition. Original Limu is simply a natural and spectacularly nutritious food by which the body can perform optimally in healing itself. There is more I report in other postings in this thread you may wish to view under Thorp. There is also a helpful information line at 866-852-4832 where you can also place an order using the referral ID number 1388001. Be blessed!
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2005, at 10:32:28
In reply to Original Limu is the ultimate choice, not Sea Vegg, posted by Thorp on May 17, 2005, at 0:19:41
I appreciate the enthusiasm, but I really have a problem with someone selling merchandise in this forum. Exceedingly expensive merchandise, especially so.
> Fucoidan is found only in sea-based plants.
Actually, any of the brown algaes, in particular. You may note the similarity between the name fucoidan and the genus name Fucus. There are many Fucus algaes consumed as food around the world. Limu is in the genus Laminaria. I'm rather skeptical that Limu is somehow special amongst them all. Brown algae have been contributing to health of many seaside populations, without anyone knowing about the sulphated polysaccharides (fucoidan) they all contain.
Laminaria japonica (Limu) has a more common name. Kelp.
> Besides all the other tremendous nutritious components in Limu Moui including vitamins, amino acids, essential fatty acids, anti-oxidants, glyconutrients, live enzymes, and particularly the whole spectrum of minerals and trace elements in colloidal form found in the sea which our blood emulates, and still others, the fucoidan in Limu Moui stands out as perhaps the greatest nutrient and immune booster ever discovered.
There is nothing in the contents of Limu that set it above the other brown seaweeds, as far as I can tell. All whole sea plants contain the above list of nutrients, with the exception of the high concentrations of sulphated polysaccharides found in the brown algae.
> The scientific and medical establishment is taking an ever greater interest as well as the studies on fucoidan have been growing exponentially since the mid-1970’s in the database of the National Library of Medicine at www.pubmed.gov. Anyone can go to this database and search the word fucoidan
And how many of those 600 articles are specific to Laminaria japonica? Eleven. Not a single one mentions Limu.
> and turn up now over 600 studies and can narrow those studies to issues of interest simply by adding an additional word or more like cancer or tumor or tumors or carcinogen or carcinoma, immune, blood or platelets or leukocyte, inflammation or inflammatory, liver or hepatitis, lung or pulmonary, heart or cardiovascular, pancreatic or diabetes or insulin, virus or viral, bacteria or bacterial, wound or wounds, surgery, skin or dermatitis or dermal, etc.
Again, what makes your product special?
Try and convince a skeptic, also an organic chemist (toxicology). For example, what is the fucoidan concentration?
Lar
Posted by Thorp on May 22, 2005, at 5:59:24
In reply to Re: Original Limu » Thorp, posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2005, at 10:32:28
Hey Lar, 2005 05 22
What a pleasure to hear from someone who specializes in this kind of technology. I particularly enjoy your care and detail in responding to my posting. We are brothers in the technology of organic chemistry. Aren’t you glad that you pursued organic chemistry? What a rich a field it is! We can study endlessly in just the field of organic chemistry and barely touch the surface. I can learn a lot from you as a toxicologist. I come from a long lineage of chemists and my brother also with a Ph.D. degree in organic chemistry is married to my sister-in-law who is really big, at least to me, in toxicology in a prominent California institution where she is writing a comprehensive book on the subject as I understand it. She and my son who is now a radiologist and my other son in med school speak the same lingo when we have get-togethers, leaving me in the dust as a mere industrial chemist with a particular focus in polymers and plastics. I also am acquainted with a whole raft of other technologies here and there as I also have served over 15 years as an on-line technical database specialist and technology and patent analyst assisting researchers in industry and patent attorneys particularly in the intellectual property arena.
I am fascinated with limu moui more as a beneficiary but also intrigued as a technically oriented guy. I have a theory as a chemist why brown algae like limu moui have fucoidan in their cell walls and why it has such diverse beneficial effects in human beings and even their pets. [I do try to keep it away from the varmints like raccoons that already do enough damage and don't need to be any smarter or stronger!] My younger son in med school who at first dismissed the product saying that it was impossible to impact so many different chemical pathways in the body to afford such diverse beneficial effects is now leaning towards my explanation. You probably have already come up with the same explanation or better seeing how this is your area of expertise anyway. I would appreciate it if you would share such common knowledge with me.
Obviously you are way ahead of the game. You know all about such seaweeds, and know all their names. Although I am a chemist and am fascinated to read what you write and am eager to hear more, I may shock you a bit in that all that knowledge, as great as it is, is really just icing on the cake for me. I have seen too much. I tested it myself on myself taking it with incredible results and then discontinuing it to see the same ailments return and then see them disappear again as I continued with Original Limu again. I know first hand of its value. I have seen blood work on different people. I have seen people get their lives back. So, although I am trained and could spend quite a while digging into this and that and indeed truly enjoy doing it, I’m already 58 years old and want to do something more with my life than just help one chemical company sue another over intellectual property issues. I agree with The Limu Company’s motto, I want to make a difference with my life and I see a very special way in doing it by sharing the good news of Original Limu with the world as fast as I possibly can so as to make it a happier, more productive, more secure and less politician-dependent world.
I just get more and more reassurances on a regular basis that what I am doing with my life in regards to Original Limu is the path I was meant to take. For instance, I took my fifth of my five sons to get his broken hand (spring football practice injury) taken care of a couple weeks ago in the office of a Philippine-born physician and he and his wife said they not only knew the name limu moui specifically but that limu moui specifically is what they crave when they return for vacation as they were brought up eating limu moui on a daily basis, much like the Tongan Island people. They say that the people back home are healthy due to the limu moui being a staple in their diet and that his patients and our country in general is sick because of our poor diet and pollution among other things.
There is another physician in the area already recommending Original Limu to his patients in that he is getting more and more concerned about the harm overmedication is doing to his patients and our country. He is getting more and more excited about the product as he see the lab work come back for his patients who are taking Original Limu. And, by the way he comes I think from Pakistan where traditional medicine is just one consideration in helping people with their health. I wish there were more open-minded and caring physicians around like this man.
I just picked up my other son from prep school and the red bumps and acne in general are gone since he decided as a last straw to request that I let him have Original Limu. In fact, like the woman in her mid-forties here in my town who had horrible scarring from adolescent acne, his scarring too has been slowly fading away. Both the woman and he are utterly amazed as am I! So, you can see my excitement.
As far as selling, Lar, a person asked on the forum what opinions people had about Sea Vegg. I told them and my enthusiasm just cannot get me to shut up! What am I to do, Lar? Should I play a cat and mouse game and make him guess how he can get this spectacular supplement? Should I let people continue to get milked by the commercialism of a far inferior product that presents a very compelling story of what Original Limu is far more fit to do where its strength and activation far exceed that of Sea Vegg as a result of the fifteen years of research and development that went into the Original Limu extract? So, Lar, I could send them to the generic web site, but The Limu Company is so ethical that it goes to great pains to make sure that an order is coupled to the person recommending it. So, why put the onus on the one just trying to get the product to try to investigate and find out who is responsible for alerting him and educating him? And, whom else would a new person want to be associated with but the one who was convincing enough from his heart to help him and who is willing to be there with him until he sees relief? These forums the moderators of which get all worked up about spam are simply frustration machines to people sincerely asking for help, praying on their knees for help and then the moderator comes around and deletes for them, as if they cannot think for themselves, the possible answer, in my case an extremely solid possible answer, for giving them a whole new lease on life!
I hold Dr. Bob’s forum in very high esteem in that it performs an extremely valuable service of the free speech exchange of ideas so different from totalitarian and power-intoxicated moderators who enjoy and demand, like dictators of third world countries, censorship and thus ravage their own forums and countries respectively. I think those living in the ivory towers of academia often miss the value of free speech except where it comes to them being supported by the government to publish in scientific journals or perish.
OK, Lar, let’s deal with expense. How much are people spending now on medication that only treats a symptom but does not get the person well? Just look at the politics of fear based on the rapidly escalating expense of a greedy pharmaceutical industry that spends far more, as I understand it, on advertising than on R&D! There are already large numbers of people taking this very new food product, Original Limu, whose physicians are cutting them back and even discontinuing them on many of their medications in that the symptom is fading away because the body is finally getting the nutrition so desperately missing in our Western culture to get its chemical machinery working effectively again as designed by its Maker to fix itself, correct its foul ups, regulate out-of-control processes, and otherwise adjust the bodies to perform as designed.
Look Lar, you get paid, for being a toxicologist, don’t you? If there were no value to what you do, don’t you think you would be looking for some other line of work? Well, some bloke whose specialty was extracting nutrients from grasses took a risk to see what he could do with limu moui over which so many people for so many thousands of years have hailed as being the source of their great health and longevity. He spent 15 years with no certainty of whether he would succeed. Yet, you see a pharmaceutical company do the same thing and you say that’s OK. Lar, you cannot speak out of both sides of your mouth. If it were not worth it, it would not be on the market and people would not be buying it. It is on the market and people are slowly awakening to its incredible value – every bit as much as a pharmaceutical company would charge for a comparable discovery which no doubt would be 10 to 20 times that for which Original Limu is sold. And, what pharmaceutical company holds your hand to make sure you get the best crack at getting the results you are looking for. For all I do in helping people become aware of this extraordinary product and for all I do in coaching them and assisting them in getting the best results, the price charged presently is far too little!! ~! And, what pharmaceutical company provides an avenue for the consumer to get his product paid for simply by sharing the great idea others are dying to hear about. In fact, maybe the pharmaceutical company could learn a thing or two from The Limu Company!
OK, now Lar, truly I am not trying to be antagonistic to you at all. I just get good and put out at the screwed up way people look at direct marketing askance and then glorify the industry that doesn’t fix the problem but merely poisons you day by day as if it were strychnine in regards to the very dangerous side-effects of which we only know too well from the recent exposure of the sloppy job performed by the pharmaceutical industry apparently in cahoots with the FDA in placing their pain medications Vioxx, Celebrex and Alleve in the marketplace. Why would I want to put that man-made stuff into my body for handling pain I am experiencing when I can turn to a natural product, Original Limu, without the dangerous side-effects in that it is merely a food, and get relief by getting the body to do what it was designed to do if fed properly of eliminating the pain naturally. I am no expert. I am no physician. But, I can read. I can read the well-referenced summary of the value of limu moui by Rita Elkins in her book, Limu Moui, which is sold in most health food stores. I can also read any number of the rapidly growing reports regarding fucoidan in the database of the National Library of Medicine at www.pubmed.gov.
Now, one last point that I think you are trying to make is that you wonder why all the whoopla about some stupid limu moui extract when “brown algae have been contributing to health of many seaside populations, without anyone knowing about the sulphated polysaccharides (fucoidan) they all contain.” Well, as I understand it and see with many other fresh vegetables in our grocery stores, limu moui or any other seaweed is perishable. So, yes, the seaside populations can do well without Original Limu simply eating the seaweed as a staple of their diet. I have no argument – except I strongly suspect that Original Limu is much more concentrated and more convenient to consume than going to the kitchen and cooking up some seaweed. Accordingly, I have two arguments why Original Limu is one of the greatest discoveries of our time:
1. The essence and more (due to the proprietary extraction process) of limu moui is captured in a formulation that remains vital and effective for long periods of time without any real concern over its perishability. You could look at it like preserves of peaches or figs.
2. We live in a highly stressful world and time is of the essence and thus our population is killing itself eating junk food and fast foods. You could look at Original Limu as a fast food but so different in regards to nourishment from the normal fast food fare of the Western culture that has been exported around the world with devastating effects! We have an obligation to export Original Limu to make up for the devastation our Western culture has wreaked upon the world. Also, there are a few people that not only wouldn’t take the time to learn how to cook or prepare seaweed or to take the time daily to prepare it but there is a whole bunch of people whose tastes unfortunately have not yet adapted to the idea of eating some slimy green-brown dirty looking seaweed which they might consider no better than fried locust or worms or caterpillar. I do not speak such to defame your specialty, Lar – forgive me if I step on your toes here – that’s just how ordinary people are!So, yes, the nutrition of limu moui is not new. People have been eating it for thousands of years with great benefits in a highly vigorous and vital existence with exceptional longevity. The greatness of Original Limu is that it is now available to anyone and everyone, or will be soon as countries are qualified for distribution. It is kind of like what smoked meats did for the pioneers of our country when refrigeration was not available. Actually, at first it looks just too ridiculously simple for anyone to get worked up about Original Limu, but some of the greatest discoveries for the advancement of civilization are the simplest. Yet, the plant itself and the corresponding extract, Original Limu, as simple as it is for us just to grab it and eat it, it is a miracle of immense proportions like so much else in life that points to a Creator that a scientist in particular can more than any other of God’s children see clearly as he studies the miracles of His creation.
Finally, who cares what you call it or where it came from. Fucoidan is fucoidan! Original Limu is a powerful nutritional supplement with fucoidan being a key component. I don’t know personally, not being an expert, but I suspect the economics of kelp, which you teach me is limu moui and one of many brown algae bearing fucoidan, and also what I have heard regarding the especially high concentrations of fucoidan in limu moui in particular vis a vis other brown algae may have favored the development of the extraction process on limu moui over some other brown algae. Why would one want to waste his time developing an extraction process on a marine vegetable that is not easy to harvest, is not plentiful, is not stable to processing, does not grow quickly, etc. etc. I don’t know about such details. If you like, go out and create your own extraction process for some other brown algae and put it on the market. I suspect the limu moui was chosen because it is the most economical brown algae to extract and who wants to pay any more for a fucoidan-laced supplement than they have to! I really don’t care what the source of the fucoidan is in the research papers as long as someone can get fucoidan to me as conveniently and economically as possible. You said yourself that cost concerned you. Well, if you would just share this good news with five people, and every person needs this product, then your costs are offset by the mercantile and greed-laden commissions that The Limu Company is dedicated to paying to anyone that helps get this good news out to the world! Again, the pharmaceutical companies could learn a lot about marketing their products from The Limu Company, but they simply do not have a product like Original Limu. They have to sell their products in a carefully regulated industry because their products are so dangerous; they are not just simply good ole food like Original Limu.
Now, what makes Original Limu special you ask? And, you would not be able to ask this question unless you knew Original Limu existed. And, I cannot spend time like this writing a response to you unless I get compensated. Therefore, if I did not “spam” as you seem to be alleging about me, we would not be conducting this fantastic conversation and people would still be sick and without hope! Original Limu is special in the diverse benefits people enjoy by having their bodies start working right again and fixing the problems due to the abuse inflicted upon them by the Western culture. We treat our cars and our homes and our clothing with far, far greater regard than we treat our over-stressed and under-rested and poorly fed and badly nurtured bodies.
Other benefits are that you can rub Original Limu into the body in regards to helping relieve pain, even deep-seated pain from reports I have heard first hand. You can help abrasions and cuts and probably even bruises heal more quickly when applied topically – not to the replacement, of course, of internal consumption. I would also much rather squirt Original Limu or some dilution of it into my nasal passages when I have an infection in the upper back of my throat that can’t be touched by gargling than try to stick through my nose some raw seaweed. I also would rather place droplets of Original Limu or some dilution thereof into my infected eyes or ears instead of again raw seaweed. Wouldn’t you?
Now, finally, regarding concentration, you can view an analytical report on this subject at the following website: http://www.limu-analysis.com/ . Hey, these laboratories pulled out yet another name that you have not yet revealed to me: Phaeophyceae (brown algae).
Now, Lar, I cannot compete with you in this being your area of expertise. Surely you have much yet to refute in my arguments. But, believe me, I cannot live without Original Limu or I would be living with constant throbbing pain in right arm which surgery failed to relieve. Also, Lar, I, not even knowing about seaweed, at first thought that this was the ultimate scam, a company putting on a joke of getting people to sell seaweed (this is before I knew anything about it being a sophisticated extract, unlike products like Sea Vegg). Then people told me that the key ingredient was a sulphated polysaccharide and my first thought is that this company was trying to push on an unsuspecting public a real scam of simple sugar water! I tried at first to tell the person who told me about it not to be taken in by it or taken in by the multitude of other products advertised on radio, the Internet, in forums, in infomercials, etc. etc. I was undoubtedly a far greater skeptic (even a scoffer) than you ever thought about being in that I was ignorant and not a specialist like you.I don’t know if I convinced you in any way, but you have certainly not deterred me obviously in anyway. In fact, if you will just get on the product yourself along with your whole family and dog, you will thank me later for “spamming,” because you would still be lost and apart from this spectacular food. But, also realize that I am thankful for your careful and thoughtful posting in trying to educate this old chemist and would love to get to know you better by coaching you on how to get the most out of Original Limu and also by learning more about these miraculous treasures of the sea. Be blessed.
Thorp
www.limunight.originallimu.com
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 22, 2005, at 11:26:56
In reply to Re: Original Limu, posted by Thorp on May 22, 2005, at 5:59:24
> Hey Lar, 2005 05 22
>
> What a pleasure to hear from someone who specializes in this kind of technology.I'm happy that we have also remained in the realm of friendly debate. I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to edit your post heavily.
>I have a theory as a chemist why brown algae like limu moui have fucoidan in their cell walls and why it has such diverse beneficial effects in human beings and even their pets.
Yes, it is a compound found in may other species, and genera. And more, as we shall see.
> Obviously you are way ahead of the game. You know all about such seaweeds, and know all their names.
It's not that hard, if you understand the structure of phylogenetic relationships. I looked up the specifics for this case, in minutes.
> Hey, these laboratories pulled out yet another name that you have not yet revealed to me: Phaeophyceae (brown algae).
Phaeophycae is the name of a phylogenetic Class. At the level of Class (a taxon), an equivalent in the animal sphere is Insecta. That's a rather large collection, and so is Phaeophyceae.
Domain Eukarya
Kingdom plantae
Phylum or Division Phaeophyta
**Class Phaeophyceae **
Order Laminariales
Family Laminariaceae
**Genus Laminaria**
**Species japonica**Common name: Kelp
(Aside: There are many different species called kelp, based on what grows in a particular locale, but they are all very similar in structure and form.)
> So, yes, the nutrition of limu moui is not new. People have been eating it for thousands of years with great benefits in a highly vigorous and vital existence with exceptional longevity. The greatness of Original Limu is that it is now available to anyone and everyone, or will be soon as countries are qualified for distribution. It is kind of like what smoked meats did for the pioneers of our country when refrigeration was not available.
Or dehydration. Dry stuff lasts virtually forever. They have found edible grain in tombs that are 3000 years old.
> I suspect the limu moui was chosen because it is the most economical brown algae to extract and who wants to pay any more for a fucoidan-laced supplement than they have to! I really don’t care what the source of the fucoidan is in the research papers as long as someone can get fucoidan to me as conveniently and economically as possible.
> Now, finally, regarding concentration, you can view an analytical report on this subject at the following website: http://www.limu-analysis.com/ .
Fucoidan Analyses:
Sample Fucoidan Content
(1) Original Limu 0.14 gms/100 mls
(2) Limu Plus 0.005 gms/100 mlsOriginal Limu has 0.14% fucoidan. The bulk of your product is water.
Compare that to: http://www.betterherbs.com/limu_nei.htm
This is a dried product, claiming 80% fucoidan by weight. Nobody is buying water with this product. I have no reason to believe its anything more than kelp powder, though.
> OK, Lar, let’s deal with expense.Think marketing. Question: "How can I get people to pay $80/lb. for kelp powder?" Answer: "Call it Limu, or something exotic, and build a fancy website."
Alternative: just buy kelp powder. This is simply the first vendor I found, on a google search using those keywords. It may not be the best price. http://www.wildroots.com/kelp-powder-p-2422.html One pound for $3.60.
> Finally, who cares what you call it or where it came from. Fucoidan is fucoidan!
Exactly my point.
Lar
Posted by Thorp on May 22, 2005, at 21:47:48
In reply to Re: Original Limu » Thorp, posted by Larry Hoover on May 22, 2005, at 11:26:56
Hi again, Lar, 2005 05 22
I am very much enjoying the exchange, Lar, and I truly appreciate your helping me along in getting into the technology with definitions regarding the seaweeds. When two people are simply trying to sit down without trying to hoodwink one another but are simply after the truth, how could the debate not be productive and, especially between two of similar base training, even friendly. Now, as a chemist, I assume of some experience (what venue, industrial or academic and how many years?), you appreciate the value of sophisticated research and development over a period of time (15 years in the case of Original Limu) by an expert in the field of extraction of natural products. Why would such a person waste such time if all he had to do was to dry up some seaweed, grind it up, bottle it and sell it? And, look at the date that dried kelp was first put on the market, May 2, 2003 according to the website you reported, well after the first introduction of the extract product that is present in Original Limu in early 2001. Finally, I have observed a presentation by the developer of the extract in Original Limu and he was very much the detailed, boring to the layman kind of presenter that you and I see over and over again at our ACS (American Chemical Society) conventions. He is for real and not some con artist working in the back woods with some kettles and grain products to produce moonshine. Original Limu ain’t no moonshine! Finally, I ask, Lar, if simple dried up kelp were comparable to Original Limu, why haven’t people been put onto this product long ago instead of letting people suffer the horrors of our pathetic Western diet?
Don’t you think that this expert whose extract is the base used in Original Limu would have had better things to do with his time than create an extract if chopped up dried kelp was sufficient? Another consideration about dried kelp would be the presence of any active enzymes. Yes, the developer of the extract could also have come up in a much shorter period of time with a simple dehydration process for creating a product? That is what I read when NEI promotes its product as being 80% fucoidan in that the raw product having 2.5% to 4% by weight fucoidan is concentrated 40 fold. Actually, this seems fishy to me in that a 40-fold concentration would mean that all that is left after the concentration is fucoidan if only 2.5% only were present in the raw stock. They should be claiming with usual content being 2.5% to 4% accordingly between 100% and 140% fucoidan with the product being so concentrated and assuming as it appears through their report that all there is to concentrate is fucoidan. And, who wants only the fucoidan? The whole product including the minerals, trace elements, amino acids, fatty acids, vitamins, enzymes, etc. is critical to the value of Original Limu. Well, maybe there is some kind of extraction first and some fucoidan is lost in the process thus accounting for the mathematics inconsistency. Who says, that the extract going into Original Limu is not 80% and with 15 years of R&D behind it. This 80% hype is simply a deception.
Another perspective rings true regarding NEI when one takes a quick look at the website you recommend. It reveals a taletell sleight of hand that we are seeing with increasing frequency as others try to jump on the bandwagon with Original Limu. We have seen it with the copy-cat product called Limu Plus as reported in the analysis website I gave you in my last posting: http://www.limu-analysis.com/index.cfm/go/Analysis.Letter/. How many times will The Limu Company have to go out and hire a laboratory to expose the charlatans?
Limu Plus promoted their product as being the same but better than Original Limu in that they couldn’t be content to present the best uncontaminated by anything else. They instead said that they not only had the same great limu but something extra. As I understand it, they added a Russian supplement that they had tried to peddle in several different products before they pushed it with their Limu Plus product. Now, I see the same kind of deception with NEI where it has to contaminate its product with colostrom! That tells me that they cannot compete head to head with Original Limu regarding the real value of the limu moui in their formulation.
There are problems with this kind of marketing trickery. It may sound great that Limu Plus has a “plus,” an additional “wonderful” added ingredient. So typical it is of man that he thinks he can improve upon the natural from the Creator, but what kind of problems might be generated by this kind of Tomfoolery? With a simple food without any herbs, there is removed the concern of the herb interfering and having adverse effects with medications. Why is this risk taken with Limu Plus? It was not to make it a better product but simply a technique of deceiving the public and perhaps of recouping losses from a bad investment into a Russian supplement. Also, who knows what the effects of contamination will have upon the strength and efficacy of the natural limu moui? What tests have been performed to reveal an actual advantage of contaminating the limu moui? I don’t know about you, but I want a contaminant-free limu moui product when I know that it is the ultimate supplement and I resent those who try to trick me with marketing schemes to shift me from the best to a poor substitute as Limu Plus, and I strongly suspect also NEI, has tried to do in regards to the one, the only, the original, Original Limu.
The public can be easily led by the unscrupulous. As Abraham Lincoln said, some people can be fooled all the time and all people can be fooled some of the time, but all people cannot be fooled all of the time.
There is no product that can compare to Original Limu. Where is the side-by-side analytical comparison of NEI to Original Limu? Limu Plus tried to confuse the public using an analysis themselves that promoted their product but did not tell the truth about the effective fucoidan in their product as noted in the above analysis (http://www.limu-analysis.com/index.cfm/go/Analysis.Letter/). Their analysis they hyped up was a size-exclusion chromatography analysis that doesn’t say a thing about the key characteristic of effective fucoidan, the sulfate content. The analysis of Original Limu is the accepted and well-regarded analysis of the sulfate content of the fucoidan conducted by a reputable, independent analytical laboratory. It appears to me that the same sham will unfold over and over again with many other copycat products and to me, most likely also NEI. No other company has 15 years of R&D behind it!
The marketplace needs to sort out the chaff quickly of exaggerated and/or misleading claims that try to hoodwink the public. I see a strong case of déjà vu with NEI when they promote the following:
We then add the 6-Hour Miracle colostrum or “mother's milk from the land". The 6-Hour Miracle contains:
Over 95+ Immune Factors, which work with the body’s own defense system against disease.
All 87 Natural Anti-Aging Growth Factors, which work with the body to help maintain youth and vitality.
All of the Essential Amino Acids, the building blocks of the body.
Essential Fatty Acids, maintaining vitality and viability of our cell membranes function and structure.
There are many more components, much, much more!My question is whose colostrum is this? My mother’s? There is no definition at all given here. This is just like Limu Plus. It is pure hype trying to delude people to give up the best for a poor substitute.
Now I could be jumping the gun, Lar, but I wouldn’t bet on it. Let’s see a side-by-side, apples-to-apples analysis using the appropriate analytical tests in a reputable, independent laboratory and see where NEI actually stands. I suspect that you will be thankful that we have had these exchanges before you wind up falling for their deception hook line and sinker.
OK, Lar, let’s pretend there is some legitimacy to NEI and that, the side-by-side analysis, by some stroke of remarkable luck of bypassing 15 years of R&D, passes muster. What do we have then? According to NEI, there are 150 mg of their extract provided in each serving. At 80% fucoidan, that is 120 mg. Now, Original Limu comes in a liter bottle, 1000 ml. The analysis said that there were .14 grams of fucoidan in 100 ml or 1.4 grams in the liter bottle. That is the same as 1400 mg in a bottle of Original Limu. Well, the recommended dosage of Original Limu is one ounce in the morning and one at night. That is two ounces a day. So a liter bottle, just over an ounce more than a quart bottle or a 32-ounce bottle, should last 16 to 17 days. Or let’s be generous and say that a person should be consuming two bottles a month of Original Limu at the recommended dosage. And, with 1400 mg of fucoidan per bottle of roughly 33 dosages, 42 mg fucoidan is ingested twice daily at the recommended dosage or 84 mg per day. Now, NEI is claiming 120 mg per day of what they purport to be comparable to the fucoidan of Original Limu. For a 30-day period, NEI purports that it is providing 30 time 120 mg or 3.6 grams of fucoidan for a customer per month. The Original Limu provides two bottles of 2.8 grams of fucoidan per month or slightly less if strictly proceeding with only two ounces per day.
Now, Lar, this is not the impression you gave in your posting that there was any comparison between the two:
Original Limu has 0.14% fucoidan. The bulk of your product is water.
Compare that to: http://www.betterherbs.com/limu_nei.htm
This is a dried product, claiming 80% fucoidan by weight. Nobody is buying water with this product. I have no reason to believe its anything more than kelp powder, though.
Your remarks suggested a wide discrepancy in fucoidan content of NEI vs Original Limu with your implication that Original Limu is simply selling water. My point is that, although the medium for Original Limu may be water (actually mango and papaya juice puree along with a small amount of a natural preservative, grapefruit extract), Original Limu still holds a comparable amount of fucoidan content as is reported for NEI. Lar, guys like us with scientific backgrounds need to do the computations ourselves and not rely of the marketing con artists to lead us astray!Again, all of this is based on the hypothetical assumption that has not been tested by a side-by-side independent laboratory analysis. Nevertheless, let’s go further with this basis of comparison. NEI charges $40 plus $6 shipping or $46 per month at its best price. Original Limu costs $30 a bottle plus $3.45 shipping at its best price thus for two bottles, $66.90 at the best price. So, NEI with its colostrums costs only $46 a month providing supposedly 3.6 grams of fucoidan and Original Limu costs $66.90 a month (actually a 30 day month would require only 60 ounces instead of the 67 ounces available in two bottles) providing a proven and publicly available for review by an independent laboratory of 2.8 grams (somewhat less if two bottles are not completely consumed).
On this basis, if the two products were comparable in quality regarding the limu moui content and the fucoidan content associated with such, one would be gleeful over the price of the NEI at about a 35% savings. But, again, these two products are not at all the same. One is contaminated with colostrum and also some effervescent additive. The other is pure and the result of 15 years of research and development. Nevertheless, your implication in your posting was that Original Limu was way more dilute than NEI that reports 80% fucoidan content without showing calculations of the amount in each dose as I have performed roughly above. In fact, they are really quite comparable in the amount provided in the daily dosage. It was just the hype of NEI stating 80% fucoidan content standing side-by-side with your statement of 0.14% for Original Limu suggesting that Original Limu is simply selling something little different from water that is deceptive. It really boils down not to what the fucoidan content of one product is to another but what is sufficient for the body to do the exceptional nutritional value that I know for a fact for myself and observations of many others to be the case with Original Limu. I wonder how effective NEI would be in ridding me of the throbbing pain in my arm the way Original Limu did! With just a brief review of its website with a discerning eye for the telltale hype and deceptions so prevalent since the introduction of Original Limu, I have extremely serious reservations about the value of NEI.
I take it that my last posting satisfied your other questions regarding the following:
1. Selecting limu moui, actually sphaerotrichia divaricata according to the label on Original Limu, over other fucoidan-containing seaweeds for Original Limu
2. Testing fucoidan in over 600 studies in the National Library of Medicine database at www.pubmed.gov not requiring that the fucoidan come only from the plant source limu moui or sphaerotrichia divaricata or any other brown seaweed to reflect the value of the fucoidan in any brown seaweed in the health of people and animals
3. Trying to help people in desperate need even if it means telling them about something they can buy that in some small way could eventually profit me and letting them make up their own minds and not having a forum moderator exercise tyrannical control through censorship and rude commentary
4. Selling Original Limu not taking place at an exorbitant price for all the value associated with itI hope your doubts are receiving satisfactory responses. I strongly encourage you to take a break from endless pursuit of trying to find something wrong and just prove it to yourself by buying some and start getting relief from whatever is holding back your health and general well-being.
Thorp
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 23, 2005, at 10:04:35
In reply to Re: Original Limu, posted by Thorp on May 22, 2005, at 21:47:48
> Hi again, Lar, 2005 05 22
>
> I am very much enjoying the exchange, Lar, and I truly appreciate your helping me along in getting into the technology with definitions regarding the seaweeds.I'm going to heavily edit, again, dude. Although I fully recognize your enthusiasm, and belief in the efficacy of this product, those are not matters for debate. Anecdotally, the stuff works. Scientifically, I can't find a single reference to that species used in Original Limu. That's a problem for me.
> Finally, I ask, Lar, if simple dried up kelp were comparable to Original Limu, why haven’t people been put onto this product long ago instead of letting people suffer the horrors of our pathetic Western diet?
You raise a straw man argument. We simply don't know the answers.
> Yes, the developer of the extract could also have come up in a much shorter period of time with a simple dehydration process for creating a product? That is what I read when NEI promotes its product as being 80% fucoidan in that the raw product having 2.5% to 4% by weight fucoidan is concentrated 40 fold. Actually, this seems fishy to me in that a 40-fold concentration would mean that all that is left after the concentration is fucoidan if only 2.5% only were present in the raw stock. They should be claiming with usual content being 2.5% to 4% accordingly between 100% and 140% fucoidan with the product being so concentrated and assuming as it appears through their report that all there is to concentrate is fucoidan.
I caught the inconsistency immediately. That's exactly what I meant by my quip about, "How can I get people to pay $80/lb. for kelp powder?" Just because you read a claim, does not mean it is valid. The math used to promote that product simply cannot be true.
It's like real estate advertising. "Easy access to commute" means "backs onto noisy interstate highway". Ya know?
E.g. all the claims about nutrients. They are *incidental* coextractives. If you process *any* fresh vegetable matter by means of *any* non-chemical extraction process, you'll get the nutrients in the product. Without further processing, it would be impossible for them *not* to be there. You could take weeds from the side of the road and extract those nutrients. Making a big deal of their presence is deceptive. It makes me skeptical.
At this point, I fail to see why similar skepticism ought not to be levelled at Limu. We had noni juice a couple of years back. Before that, kava. Now it is Limu?
Where is the evidence? The only claim to active ingredients I have seen is to fucoidan, and fucoidan is far, far, far from being a substance exclusive to Limu.
> Another perspective rings true regarding NEI when one takes a quick look at the website you recommend.
I didn't recommend it in any way. I was using it for comparison purposes only.
> It reveals a taletell sleight of hand that we are seeing with increasing frequency as others try to jump on the bandwagon with Original Limu.....Now, I see the same kind of deception with NEI where it has to contaminate its product with colostrom! That tells me that they cannot compete head to head with Original Limu regarding the real value of the limu moui in their formulation.
Hmmm. The Original Limu label says it contains spirulina and chlorophyll.
> My question is whose colostrum is this? My mother’s? There is no definition at all given here.I wasn't trying to make a point by point comparison of content. I was comparing fucoidan.
Colostrum is usually bovine, but others are available. I can't speak to this product, and I did not "recommend" it in any way.
When I said:
"Compare that to: http://www.betterherbs.com/limu_nei.htm
This is a dried product, claiming 80% fucoidan by weight. Nobody is buying water with this product. I have no reason to believe its anything more than kelp powder, though."....there were two distinct comparators I wished to consider.
You correctly deal with the first issue, and conclude that the dried product is cheaper, on a fucoidan content basis. I make no claims for efficacy. I was comparing fucoidan content and cost.
>For a 30-day period, NEI purports that it is providing 30 time 120 mg or 3.6 grams of fucoidan for a customer per month. The Original Limu provides two bottles of 2.8 grams of fucoidan per month or slightly less if strictly proceeding with only two ounces per day....So, NEI with its colostrums costs only $46 a month providing supposedly 3.6 grams of fucoidan and Original Limu costs $66.90 a month (actually a 30 day month would require only 60 ounces instead of the 67 ounces available in two bottles) providing a proven and publicly available for review by an independent laboratory of 2.8 grams
Okay, the "alternative" product is clearly cheaper.
The second comparator was more hypothetical. How does this expensive powdered product, Limu Nei (based on Laminaria japonica), differ from a readily available generic product, called kelp powder (also Laminaria, probably japonica)? One obvious difference is unit price.
If all brown algae contain fucoidan (and it's looking like they all do.....you can't prove that, unless you test them all, of course), and brown algae products are readily available and quite inexpensive, and drying does not alter fucoidan (trust me on that, but I believe this to be a very stable molecular structure), then why pay such a price to obtain it?
It boils down to your saying this stuff (Original Limu) is special (without a side-by-side comparison to show that other products *are* less efficaceous), and my not seeing the evidence to conclude the same thing via a priori analysis.
> Now, Lar, this is not the impression you gave in your posting that there was any comparison between the two:
> Original Limu has 0.14% fucoidan. The bulk of your product is water.
> Your remarks suggested a wide discrepancy in fucoidan content of NEI vs Original Limu with your implication that Original Limu is simply selling water.I'm an environmental toxicologist. It makes no sense to ship water from place to place (energy and pollution costs), unless there is no reasonable alternative. "Live enzymes" is one argument against dehydration, but the sodium benzoate and potassium sorbate denature the enzymes. That's what they're for. To stabilize the product against auto-degradation.
> My point is that, although the medium for Original Limu may be water (actually mango and papaya juice puree along with a small amount of a natural preservative, grapefruit extract),
I see the mention of the fruit puree in the literature, but I do not see it on the label. That concerns me.
The actual preservatives are sodium benzoate (incorrectly described as a polyunsaturated fatty acid in the company literature) and potassium sorbate. The grapefruit extract is antioxidant.
> I take it that my last posting satisfied your other questions regarding the following:
>
> 1. Selecting limu moui, actually sphaerotrichia divaricata according to the label on Original Limu, over other fucoidan-containing seaweeds for Original LimuQuite contrary to your supposition, I can see no reason whatsoever to support the selection of this specific form of brown algae over all others (many thousands of species).
Okay, this came as a surprise, the species identified. There is a substantial issue of translation between different languages. Just as kelp is better thought of as a generic common name, so it seems we must consider "limu". In fact, rather than limu, mozuku seems to be the more appropriate descriptor. Whatever.
I used google to track the meaning of limu, and it leads to the genus Laminaria, and more specifically, three species in that genus, especially japonica.
There is not a single mention of Sphaerotrichia divaricata on all of google, with respect to the identifier limu, save for two references to the Original Limu product. There are only 135 mentions of Sphaerotrichia divaricata in any sense, and many of those are duplicate pages. Just a bunch of botanists babbling on, generally.
> 2. Testing fucoidan in over 600 studies in the National Library of Medicine database at www.pubmed.gov not requiring that the fucoidan come only from the plant source limu moui or sphaerotrichia divaricata or any other brown seaweed to reflect the value of the fucoidan in any brown seaweed in the health of people and animals
I disagreed with that specifically. If you make claims to the specific source of fucoidan, as you seem to recurrently do (paraphrased as "only Original Limu has these special properties"), then I would expect to find something in the literature to back that up.
I said, "And how many of those 600 articles are specific to Laminaria japonica? Eleven. Not a single one mentions Limu."
The evidence is not there for Sphaerotrichia divaricata, either. It is not found in Pubmed, period. The genus does not appear, either.
There is not one scientific link to the source species of this product. That doesn't confer some special property, or confirm the potency of Original Limu. It makes for unsubstantiation of conclusions.
> 3. Trying to help people in desperate need even if it means telling them about something they can buy that in some small way could eventually profit me and letting them make up their own minds and not having a forum moderator exercise tyrannical control through censorship and rude commentary
Oh boy. What rude commentary? What tyranny?
If the need truly is desperate, then I suggest they start with the more affordable options. I did not investigate dried brown seaweed products in any substantive way. Yet, with a simple google search, I turned up a product at $3.60/lb
> 4. Selling Original Limu not taking place at an exorbitant price for all the value associated with it
The value vs. cost is a personal attribution. I try to do my best not to argue those issues. You exhibit great faith, and I do not mean to challenge that in any way. Your faith is not subject to debate, and nothing I have said was ever meant to challenge it.
> I hope your doubts are receiving satisfactory responses. I strongly encourage you to take a break from endless pursuit of trying to find something wrong???
I never said there was anything wrong. I am trying to contextualize your information. That is how my brain works.
> and just prove it to yourself by buying some and start getting relief from whatever is holding back your health and general well-being.
>
> ThorpThat is indeed the height of the bar.
There is something in this last clause that troubles me. It implies that "buying some[Original Limu] (would allow me to) start getting relief from whatever is holding back your health and general well-being".
That claim is rather broad. And I am a skeptic. A skeptic with a tight budget.
What you have done for me is to introduce me to a new aspect of dietary management. What I will do with that is to obtain some dried brown seaweed of some sort, and give it a shot. I am too far from the sea to obtain anything fresh.
I do not suggest or imply that my trial will be equivalent to or representative of a trial of Original Noni....errrr....Limu.
Lar
P.S. The last sentence included a typo (braino?) that I caught on edit, and I decided to show the correction explicitly. It reveals my own faith in this product, I suppose.
Posted by Thorp on May 23, 2005, at 13:40:54
In reply to Re: Original Limu » Thorp, posted by Larry Hoover on May 23, 2005, at 10:04:35
Hey, Lar, I am onto you. You are not just some casual observer with a degree in chemistry. You already have a bottle of Original Limu from which you are reading the label. You have tracked other supplements like Noni and Kava. You have some kind of axe to grind. I suspect your axe is just like mine of wanting to expose shams! Believe me, Original Limu ain’t no moonshine!
I will try to respond like you to your posting:
> Hi again, Lar, 2005 05 22
>
> I am very much enjoying the exchange, Lar, and I truly appreciate your helping me along in getting into the technology with definitions regarding the seaweeds.
I'm going to heavily edit, again, dude. Although I fully recognize your enthusiasm, and belief in the efficacy of this product, those are not matters for debate. Anecdotally, the stuff works. Scientifically, I can't find a single reference to that species used in Original Limu. That's a problem for me.Hey Lar. “The stuff works!” I am a scientist and I really don’t care about all the details any more, although I was just like you when I started – so how can I complain. I would love to hear your results with dried kelp. Don’t you find it strange that nobody is singing the praises of dried kelp already? Why are there no references in the National Library of Medicine to dried kelp? As cheap as it is, a person could easily shovel a half a pound into their spaghetti sauce like basel and oregano. Perhaps you are onto something there. We need to let the word out that since Original Limu is doing so well, others ought to now realize that they can get the same results with dried kelp. I truly would love for that to be the case as it would save us all a lot of money. But, I seriously doubt Original Limu is just superfluous next to dried kelp. Again, why waste 15 years of a man’s life developing the extract that goes into Original Limu if it has no greater value than dried kelp powder? Nevertheless, I am a scientist and I ran my own test of abstention from Original Limu and the throbbing pain returned to my arm. I really don’t want to go to the trouble of ordering dried kelp powder, but if it were to arrive on my doorstep by some interested party such as yourself, I guess I can go through the torment of ten more weeks of a throbbing pain in my right arm if dried kelp powder fails and give it a try. The problem is how to take it. I don’t eat spaghetti everyday. I guess I could make a soup and throw in a bunch there. What do you think would be a fair dosage of dried seaweed to support your contention that fucoidan is fucoidan? I made the same contention but guess I now am backing off until I see that dried kelp really does all that Original Limu does. How many bottles will I need to receive for a three month trial period?
> Finally, I ask, Lar, if simple dried up kelp were comparable to Original Limu, why haven’t people been put onto this product long ago instead of letting people suffer the horrors of our pathetic Western diet?
You raise a straw man argument. We simply don't know the answers.Lar, don’t you think in this world that somebody has already tried consuming dried kelp and should have seen some miraculous health effects already?
> Yes, the developer of the extract could also have come up in a much shorter period of time with a simple dehydration process for creating a product? That is what I read when NEI promotes its product as being 80% fucoidan in that the raw product having 2.5% to 4% by weight fucoidan is concentrated 40 fold. Actually, this seems fishy to me in that a 40-fold concentration would mean that all that is left after the concentration is fucoidan if only 2.5% only were present in the raw stock. They should be claiming with usual content being 2.5% to 4% accordingly between 100% and 140% fucoidan with the product being so concentrated and assuming as it appears through their report that all there is to concentrate is fucoidan.
I caught the inconsistency immediately. That's exactly what I meant by my quip about, "How can I get people to pay $80/lb. for kelp powder?" Just because you read a claim, does not mean it is valid. The math used to promote that product simply cannot be true.
It's like real estate advertising. "Easy access to commute" means "backs onto noisy interstate highway". Ya know?
E.g. all the claims about nutrients. They are *incidental* coextractives. If you process *any* fresh vegetable matter by means of *any* non-chemical extraction process, you'll get the nutrients in the product. Without further processing, it would be impossible for them *not* to be there. You could take weeds from the side of the road and extract those nutrients. Making a big deal of their presence is deceptive. It makes me skeptical.
At this point, I fail to see why similar skepticism ought not to be levelled at Limu. We had noni juice a couple of years back. Before that, kava. Now it is Limu?Lar, we have people who have been on Noni, Sea Silver, and others and then get onto Original Limu and a blown away by how well it works. There is an 80 year old couple I see regularly as new-found friends that look to me to be in their early 60’s who grow their own foods organically even grinding their own corn meal and they have tried everything that has come down the pike for the last forty years as they have said and found none of them even comparing to Original Limu. There is no comparison to be made between Original Limu and hype products. Original Limu is the real thing!
Where is the evidence? The only claim to active ingredients I have seen is to fucoidan, and fucoidan is far, far, far from being a substance exclusive to Limu.
Lar, it is a proprietary extraction process that I could imagine would not rule out additional steps of transforming the fucoidan in it into a more active and bioavailable state. In fact, that is exactly why I am inclined to think that dried kelp won’t do anyone a lick of good in that the fucoidan in it is not readily absorbable into the blood stream. So, I strongly suspect that fucoidan is not fucoidan. There are various types of bioavailability for different sources of fucoidan.
> Another perspective rings true regarding NEI when one takes a quick look at the website you recommend.
I didn't recommend it in any way. I was using it for comparison purposes only.My apologies!
> It reveals a taletell sleight of hand that we are seeing with increasing frequency as others try to jump on the bandwagon with Original Limu.....Now, I see the same kind of deception with NEI where it has to contaminate its product with colostrom! That tells me that they cannot compete head to head with Original Limu regarding the real value of the limu moui in their formulation.
Hmmm. The Original Limu label says it contains spirulina and chlorophyll.Ah Ha! You already have a bottle of Original Limu, I see! Well, I was there at the prelaunch convention and saw what straight extract looked like and it just plain didn’t look like seaweed having a yellow-orange color at least for the batch that I saw. So human beings are funny. If they are told it is an extract of seaweed, they feel that it should look that way as well. I don’t blame the company for helping them feel it is still a seaweed by making the formulation greenish brown in color with the spirulina and chlorophyll if it gets them to drink this spectacular nutritional product.
> My question is whose colostrum is this? My mother’s? There is no definition at all given here.
I wasn't trying to make a point by point comparison of content. I was comparing fucoidan.
Colostrum is usually bovine, but others are available. I can't speak to this product, and I did not "recommend" it in any way.But you do now see my point of why I suspect NEI of being just another product in for the ride without most likely any exceptional value.
When I said:
"Compare that to: http://www.betterherbs.com/limu_nei.htm
This is a dried product, claiming 80% fucoidan by weight. Nobody is buying water with this product. I have no reason to believe its anything more than kelp powder, though."
....there were two distinct comparators I wished to consider.
You correctly deal with the first issue, and conclude that the dried product is cheaper, on a fucoidan content basis. I make no claims for efficacy. I was comparing fucoidan content and cost.
>For a 30-day period, NEI purports that it is providing 30 time 120 mg or 3.6 grams of fucoidan for a customer per month. The Original Limu provides two bottles of 2.8 grams of fucoidan per month or slightly less if strictly proceeding with only two ounces per day....So, NEI with its colostrums costs only $46 a month providing supposedly 3.6 grams of fucoidan and Original Limu costs $66.90 a month (actually a 30 day month would require only 60 ounces instead of the 67 ounces available in two bottles) providing a proven and publicly available for review by an independent laboratory of 2.8 grams
Okay, the "alternative" product is clearly cheaper.Who cares if it doesn’t do the job that Original Limu does? And, without 15 years of R&D behind it, I would highly doubt that it would compare to Original Limu in its truly making a difference in people’s health.
The second comparator was more hypothetical. How does this expensive powdered product, Limu Nei (based on Laminaria japonica), differ from a readily available generic product, called kelp powder (also Laminaria, probably japonica)? One obvious difference is unit price.
If all brown algae contain fucoidan (and it's looking like they all do.....you can't prove that, unless you test them all, of course), and brown algae products are readily available and quite inexpensive, and drying does not alter fucoidan (trust me on that, but I believe this to be a very stable molecular structure), then why pay such a price to obtain it?Perhaps your very point that drying does not alter the fucoidan is the key. Without altering it in some way as possibly could be the case in the proprietary extraction process, the fucoidan in dried kelp is unchanged and thus not readily bioavailable. Just my guess!
It boils down to your saying this stuff (Original Limu) is special (without a side-by-side comparison to show that other products *are* less efficaceous), and my not seeing the evidence to conclude the same thing via a priori analysis.
> Now, Lar, this is not the impression you gave in your posting that there was any comparison between the two:
> Original Limu has 0.14% fucoidan. The bulk of your product is water.
> Your remarks suggested a wide discrepancy in fucoidan content of NEI vs Original Limu with your implication that Original Limu is simply selling water.
I'm an environmental toxicologist. It makes no sense to ship water from place to place (energy and pollution costs), unless there is no reasonable alternative. "Live enzymes" is one argument against dehydration, but the sodium benzoate and potassium sorbate denature the enzymes. That's what they're for. To stabilize the product against auto-degradation.Lar, I find it hard to make arguments when I do not know the facts behind the proprietary issues of Original Limu but I suspect that the components in Original Limu are more bioavailable in a liquid formulation. I could envision colloidally dispersed ingredients that may thereby be more bioavailable and not left clumped up somewhere and simply wind up passing through the alimentary canal without absorption.
> My point is that, although the medium for Original Limu may be water (actually mango and papaya juice puree along with a small amount of a natural preservative, grapefruit extract),
I see the mention of the fruit puree in the literature, but I do not see it on the label. That concerns me.Read the fine print in the white portions of the label apart from the part that says “Other Ingredients:” You’ll see the genus there as well.
The actual preservatives are sodium benzoate (incorrectly described as a polyunsaturated fatty acid in the company literature) and potassium sorbate. The grapefruit extract is antioxidant.An antioxidant would certainly suggest it to be a fine preservative in my way of thinking to protect from free radical chain reactions upon exposure of the formulation to air.
> I take it that my last posting satisfied your other questions regarding the following:
>
> 1. Selecting limu moui, actually sphaerotrichia divaricata according to the label on Original Limu, over other fucoidan-containing seaweeds for Original Limu
Quite contrary to your supposition, I can see no reason whatsoever to support the selection of this specific form of brown algae over all others (many thousands of species).
Okay, this came as a surprise, the species identified. There is a substantial issue of translation between different languages. Just as kelp is better thought of as a generic common name, so it seems we must consider "limu". In fact, rather than limu, mozuku seems to be the more appropriate descriptor. Whatever.
I used google to track the meaning of limu, and it leads to the genus Laminaria, and more specifically, three species in that genus, especially japonica.
There is not a single mention of Sphaerotrichia divaricata on all of google, with respect to the identifier limu, save for two references to the Original Limu product. There are only 135 mentions of Sphaerotrichia divaricata in any sense, and many of those are duplicate pages. Just a bunch of botanists babbling on, generally.Lar, you missed my point of taking whatever is the most economical source of fucoidan and work with it. If Original Limu can process sphaerotrichia divaricata more economically than other seaweed and wind up with just as potent a nutritional supplement, why would it matter which seaweed they chose? I would prefer that they go with what will keep the price down as long as the quality of the product is unaffected.
> 2. Testing fucoidan in over 600 studies in the National Library of Medicine database at www.pubmed.gov not requiring that the fucoidan come only from the plant source limu moui or sphaerotrichia divaricata or any other brown seaweed to reflect the value of the fucoidan in any brown seaweed in the health of people and animals
I disagreed with that specifically. If you make claims to the specific source of fucoidan, as you seem to recurrently do (paraphrased as "only Original Limu has these special properties"), then I would expect to find something in the literature to back that up.
I said, "And how many of those 600 articles are specific to Laminaria japonica? Eleven. Not a single one mentions Limu."
The evidence is not there for Sphaerotrichia divaricata, either. It is not found in Pubmed, period. The genus does not appear, either.
There is not one scientific link to the source species of this product. That doesn't confer some special property, or confirm the potency of Original Limu. It makes for unsubstantiation of conclusions.Again, my bet is that you are missing the point of Original Limu. It is not in the source of the plant, it is in the proprietary extraction process that took 15 years to develop!
> 3. Trying to help people in desperate need even if it means telling them about something they can buy that in some small way could eventually profit me and letting them make up their own minds and not having a forum moderator exercise tyrannical control through censorship and rude commentary
Oh boy. What rude commentary? What tyranny?I’m sorry. Are you the moderator? I did not know. I was not referring to you but rather to the moderator of The Naked Scientists Science Discussion Forum at I won’t give a plug to a pathetic forum.
If the need truly is desperate, then I suggest they start with the more affordable options. I did not investigate dried brown seaweed products in any substantive way. Yet, with a simple google search, I turned up a product at $3.60/lbLar, Desperate people aren’t concerned about a few bucks here and there. They want what has been proven time and time again to work for people. Where is the data on dried kelp powder? I can connect you to thousands of satisfied consumers of Original Limu. If you had a short time yet to live, where would you place your bet?
> 4. Selling Original Limu not taking place at an exorbitant price for all the value associated with it
The value vs. cost is a personal attribution. I try to do my best not to argue those issues. You exhibit great faith, and I do not mean to challenge that in any way. Your faith is not subject to debate, and nothing I have said was ever meant to challenge it.Lar, it is more than faith, although I appreciate your respect for my faith. We have doctors seeing results from the Original Limu that blow them away from many different patients and many different doctors. Results are seen in blood work, in radiological results, etc. Scientists are making similar results for fucoidan in the literature, apparently a very bioavailable form or at least already past the intestinal line barrier. Lar, we see pets and children and infants undergoing dramatic improvements without their having any idea that Original Limu is anything different from kool aid.
> I hope your doubts are receiving satisfactory responses. I strongly encourage you to take a break from endless pursuit of trying to find something wrong
???
I never said there was anything wrong. I am trying to contextualize your information. That is how my brain works.I again apologize.
> and just prove it to yourself by buying some and start getting relief from whatever is holding back your health and general well-being.
>
> Thorp
That is indeed the height of the bar.
There is something in this last clause that troubles me. It implies that "buying some[Original Limu] (would allow me to) start getting relief from whatever is holding back your health and general well-being".
That claim is rather broad. And I am a skeptic. A skeptic with a tight budget.
What you have done for me is to introduce me to a new aspect of dietary management. What I will do with that is to obtain some dried brown seaweed of some sort, and give it a shot. I am too far from the sea to obtain anything fresh.
I do not suggest or imply that my trial will be equivalent to or representative of a trial of Original Noni....errrr....Limu.You flatter Noni!
As I have said before, I am no physician and make no claims but I have the common sense to know that if the body is given the right building blocks and right nutrients, it will take care of its own ailments as in healing a cut finger as it was designed to do by the Creator. Original Limu is not a medicine but only a powerful source of incredible nutrition that gets the body back doing its job after a long drought on the Western diet. I feel extremely confident that it will do the same for you. I don’t know whether you have any serious health issues or not, but if you do, I would truly and sincerely from my heart encourage you to try your experiment with dried kelp after you first give yourself a more likely chance at relief, according to the reports of so many, through Original Limu. I trust if you do try the dried kelp, that you will be asking me later still on how to order something that has a better chance of helping you, Original Limu.Lar
P.S. The last sentence included a typo (braino?) that I caught on edit, and I decided to show the correction explicitly. It reveals my own faith in this product, I suppose.So you do take Noni? You won’t believe how much better Original Limu is!
I’m sorry, I may have a lot of typos etc. here, but my time is just getting too short to be as exhaustive as I have been. I really like you, Lar, and see so much of myself in you. I suspect that as you see the wonders of Original Limu yourself that we will look back at these discussions with great reminiscence as a country is dramatically changed in its health and vigor and productivity and reduction of guff.
Thorp
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 24, 2005, at 1:01:22
In reply to Re: Original Limu, posted by Thorp on May 23, 2005, at 13:40:54
> P.S. The last sentence included a typo (braino?) that I caught on edit, and I decided to show the correction explicitly. It reveals my own faith in this product, I suppose.
>
> So you do take Noni? You won’t believe how much better Original Limu is!
>
> I’m sorry, I may have a lot of typos etc. here, but my time is just getting too short to be as exhaustive as I have been. I really like you, Lar, and see so much of myself in you. I suspect that as you see the wonders of Original Limu yourself that we will look back at these discussions with great reminiscence as a country is dramatically changed in its health and vigor and productivity and reduction of guff.
Did he really say that?OMG
He really said that.
Those, those.. infomercial people are real.
heh, and I'm on medication?
Posted by Thorp on May 24, 2005, at 6:00:22
In reply to Re: Original Limu » Thorp, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 24, 2005, at 1:01:22
I can't tell whether you are seeing the light of the value of the long-needed nutrients in Original Limu, a proprietary non-chemical extract of a seaweed bearing among a whole spectrum of nutrients the remarkable immune-boosting component fucoidan, in our nutrient-starved Western culture or whether you jest and mock me.
I choose to play into your potential ploy and speak what I am convinced personally now after two years of experience and study that what is said in large by Scott Kennedy in the infomercial for Sea Vegg is true - not for the cobbled together Sea Vegg but for Original Limu that has over 15 years of research and development behind its proprietary non-chemical extraction process that makes Original Limu unique and one extraordinary food supplement that allows the body to reenergize its chemical machinery to sustain and correct the hitherto unchallenged assaults on the body through neglect and abuse of our Western culture and our Western diet.
I am not telling Gabbi to drop his medication by any stretch of the imagination. I am not a doctor and cannot prescribe, treat, cure or diagnose any ailment. That is his doctor's responsibility and, if he is taking medication, he is taking something that can potentially mean life or death to him because of the potency of the medication for treating a symptom and for wreaking havoc due to its customary and notorious side-effects.
Yet, medication is designed to treat symptoms. A natural supplement of any value like Original Limu provides the body with an arsenal of nutrients to help the body restore itself and consequently eliminate the symptom for which the medication was designed and prescribed. Thus, medications treat the symptom and nutrition removes the symptom potentially according to the teachings of the Father of Modern Day Medicine, Hippocrates, who encouraged mankind to "let food be your medicine and let medicine be your food." Unfortunately, little attention is paid to another teaching of Hippocrates, “Above all, do no harm!”
Over a period of time, a worthy nutritional supplement, like Original Limu, will restore the self-healing power of the body by providing the where-with-all needed by the body as designed by its Creator where our Western culture and diet have only wreaked havoc in the creation, the body -- thus the mounting and devastating chronic disease that so ruthlessly plagues our land and bankrupts our economy.
Over a period of time, as useful as it may be on a temporary basis to bring a body through a life-threatening condition reflecting a symptom of a disease, medication in general does not correct the basis of a condition and instead leads to a worsening overall condition and eventually a slow death like the daily slow poisoning of the body with a strychnine due to the crippling and eventually life-threatening side-effects of most medications. I saw first-hand the ravages of over-medication of my father on his death bed; he placed his absolute trust in the medical industry and forsook any responsibility for his own health.
So one may jest and mock supplements. The regulators like the FDA in cahoots with pharmaceutical companies may seek to deny the public of the godsend of worthy nutritional supplements like Original Limu, but the truth will win out. Our bodies are a creation designed by the Creator to prosper on the gifts nature provides, i.e. our natural food supply including that from the sea and not diet Coke nor man-made medications. When our people recognize the deplorable state of health in our land that our modern ways of living have reaped, they will embrace potent nutritional supplements like Original Limu and see their land healed and rid of strangling misguided corruptions masquerading as the answers to people’s hopes and prayers.
It is high time that we the people exercise our right of free speech and not shrink to the pressures of the powerful in the health industry and the government. We love our land and had better stand up for it. If we do not stand up for what we believe, our right to stand up and speak will be compromised and eventually lost.
Thorp
www.limunight.originallimu.com
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2005, at 8:57:22
In reply to Re: Anyone sea that infomercial for Sea Vegg?, posted by vitaqueen on May 16, 2005, at 10:42:03
> The problem is that I would prefer not to take 26 vitamin/mineral pills a day, and it is quite costly. I'm wondering if this Sea Vegg (or something else perhaps some of you may know about), could give me the same health benefits, and maybe I can discontinue taking some of the other supplements.
Sea vegg (or any other product) cannot cram into one capsule that which presently requires 26 tablets. It's a physical impossibility.
> I am now taking daily CoQ10 (100mg), B-complex with all cofactors (100mg), Vit E (400iu), alpha lipoic acid (100mg), Vit C (3000 mg), Folic Acid (800 mcg), Milk Thistle (200 mg), Selenium (200 mcg), lycopene/lutein/carotene (500 mcg), grape seed extract (200 mg), calcium/mag (500 mg), vanadium (5000 mcg), manganese (8 mg), L-glutatione (20 mg) chromium (200 mg), red yeast rice (2400 mg) and garlic.
Five mg of vanadium?!? 8 mg manganese? I'll get back to you on those doses.
You could definitely cut some of these out, or reduce doses. In acute treatment of symptomatic conditions, some of these doses are required, but maintenance of health does not require the larger dose. You soon learn how to "listen to your body", and increase certain supps as needed.
You could halve the CoQ10. Halve the milk thistle. (I wouldn't take it every single day, anyway. Give your body a break from herbs. I would take it half the time, or less.)
If you've been on the selenium for a few months, you could halve it.
You don't need to take the antioxidant polyphenol supps every single day. (lycopene, grape seed)
Oral glutathione is a waste of money, in that the glutathione is digested. Glutathione is a protein, and it doesn't survive the stomach intact. You're better off just ignoring this, or substituting in some whey protein powder (high in cysteine). Or some other source of cysteine, such as N-acetyl-cysteine (NAC).Where's the zinc? I see no zinc on your list. It is the most likely mineral for deficient intake, of them all.
> I'm afraid to stop taking any of these because I've been feeling so great, but a life long course of this is going to put me in the poor house. Any suggestions??????? Could Sea Vegg be the answer?
I don't think Sea Vegg is the answer to anything in particular.
You would probably be doing just as well, health wise, if you took all this stuff every other day. That would cut your bill in half, right there. And, you'd till get all the benefits. Some of your blood numbers might shift a tiny bit, but I seriously doubt there would be any significant shifts back the wrong way.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2005, at 10:29:20
In reply to Re: Original Limu, posted by Thorp on May 23, 2005, at 13:40:54
> Hey, Lar, I am onto you.
No you're not.
> You already have a bottle of Original Limu from which you are reading the label.
No, it's online.
http://www.thelimucompany.com/pdf/bottlelabel.pdf
> You have some kind of axe to grind. I suspect your axe is just like mine of wanting to expose shams! Believe me, Original Limu ain’t no moonshine!
> I will try to respond like you to your posting.
I only wish you would.
Let's get to my axe.
1. You originally claimed the activity of Limu was related to fucoidan. The Original Limu website also points directly at fucoidan as the special ingredient in Limu (after 15 years of R and D, remember). http://www.thelimucompany.com/index.cfm/go/Product.QnA/
I showed that fucoidan is not exclusive to Limu.
2. You originally claimed that there are over 600 Pubmed references attesting to the potency and efficacy of fucoidan.I showed that none of those references can be applied to Original Limu specifically (the genus and species *are not even mentioned* in the entire Pubmed database). However, a small handful of those references can be applied to kelp (also known as Limu).
All the other articles refer to other members of a vast family of edible brown algae, demonstrating the complete absence of a unique activity confined to Sphaerotrichia divaricata, from which Original Limu is derived. Rather, this is a general property of an entire class of plant life.
3. When confronted with those arguments, you then claim that it is the extraction process, which renders Limu uniquely "bioactive". That drying would perhaps render the fucoidan inactive (a speculative argument).In fact, each serving of Original Limu contains 6.9 grams (a slightly heaped teaspoonful) of a blend of the seaweed extract, *with* the mass of mango and papaya purees included. Okay, that sets the upper bound on the actual Limu content. What proportion of this could possibly be Limu itself? We know, from the lab analysis, that each ounce contains about 35 mg fucoidan. On a wet weight ratio with the content in the original plant, that would limit the Limu content to 1 gram, at most. On a dry weight basis, compared to other brown algae products, one would only need about 50 mg powder to match this content.
We do not know the patented extraction process, as you attest. It is proprietary. However, it is described on the website as starting with frozen Limu, being chemical-free, and involving "predigestion". I could come up with some very simple extractions that fit that model (e.g pressing, maceration with filtration), with endogenous enzymes providing the "predigestion". Moreover, it does not exclude spray-drying of the extract, prior to combining with the fruit purees. We just don't know.
In any case, a simple perusal of Pubmed identifies a number of simple extraction processes for fucoidan. I could perform such extractions at home, using kelp powder, a teacup, and two products I could find in virtually any home. One of those is water. Water alone extracts fucoidan, but I could improve on that with one addition.
(Aside: My erroneous assertion that mango and papaya purees were not labelled is due to the fact that I did not read the finer print. I must admit to not wanting to start having to wear reading glasses. Presbyopia, age-related decline in close-in visual acuity happens to most of us. Presbyopia means "common eye". I shan't let prebyopia interfere with the accuracy of my portrayals of fact again.)
4. Cost. You claim the cost of Original Limu makes it a bargain (based on claims of efficacy).All we have shown is that Original Limu is the, or one of the, most expensive source(s) of fucoidan in existence. Yet, in your last post, you say "Lar, you missed my point of taking whatever is the most economical source of fucoidan and work with it."
Indeed.
5. Purity. You made arguments that competitors' products were adulterated, with e.g. Siberian ginseng, or colostrum.Apart from the lack of any evidence that this combinatorial approach is somehow improper, Original Limu is itself adulterated. It contains spirulina and chlorophyll.
6. You made claims as to the scientific background for the originator of this product, fully 15 years in development.I fail to see how that is a beneficial claim, in any case, as there is nothing published from all this hard work.
Yet, this "scientist" calls benzoic acid a poly-unsaturated fat: "Sodium benzoate is the sodium salt of benzoic acid, an FDA-approved polyunsaturated fat" http://www.thelimucompany.com/index.cfm/go/Product.QnA/
If he is a meticulous scientist, that is an egregious error.
7. Tyrrany, etc. I still don't know what you're talking about, or how I got involved in your perception of same.The dialogue:
> > > letting them make up their own minds and not having a forum moderator exercise tyrannical control through censorship and rude commentary
> > Oh boy. What rude commentary? What tyranny?
> I’m sorry. Are you the moderator? I did not know. I was not referring to you but rather to the moderator of The Naked Scientists Science Discussion Forum at I won’t give a plug to a pathetic forum.
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/ ???
Moderator? Am I the moderator? Eh? Moderator of what? Why are you even talking about this? I never heard of that place before you brought it up. Are scientists there also asking for evidence?
8. "As I have said before, I am no physician and make no claims"Eh? That is exactly the issue.
I'm not even going to bother with the claims of nutritive value. If an unfortified fruit-based beverage contains only 3 mg vitamin C per serving, what concentration of those other "70-plus nutrients" claimed by Original Limu could it possibly contain?Anyway. That's my last post on the subject.
Lar
Posted by Thorp on May 24, 2005, at 14:03:39
In reply to Re: Original Limu » Thorp, posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2005, at 10:29:20
Let's get to my axe.
1. You originally claimed the activity of Limu was related to fucoidan. The Original Limu website also points directly at fucoidan as the special ingredient in Limu (after 15 years of R and D, remember). http://www.thelimucompany.com/index.cfm/go/Product.QnA/
I showed that fucoidan is not exclusive to Limu.Lar, I tried suggesting it is the fucoidan in synergy with all the other minerals and nutrients through the extraction process that gives Original Limu its exceptional value.
2. You originally claimed that there are over 600 Pubmed references attesting to the potency and efficacy of fucoidan.
I showed that none of those references can be applied to Original Limu specifically (the genus and species *are not even mentioned* in the entire Pubmed database). However, a small handful of those references can be applied to kelp (also known as Limu).
All the other articles refer to other members of a vast family of edible brown algae, demonstrating the complete absence of a unique activity confined to Sphaerotrichia divaricata, from which Original Limu is derived. Rather, this is a general property of an entire class of plant life.Lar, I already covered this issue noting that the studies had no intestinal lining barrier to overcome to do the wonders reported in the studies and that Original Limu as I suspect gets through the intestinal lining where the nutrients of simple dried kelp powder may not be so inclined. But, this discussion is really just a shot in the dark until the research supporting my conjectures support me. We are trying to explain everything without having all the facts because this is a proprietary extract.
3. When confronted with those arguments, you then claim that it is the extraction process, which renders Limu uniquely "bioactive". That drying would perhaps render the fucoidan inactive (a speculative argument).
Lar, I never said that drying would render the fucoidan inactive, I just said that I suspect that the proprietary extraction process made the fucoidan in Original Limu more bioactive or more bio accessible as in being more absorbable through the intestinal lining. Again, it is hard to make arguments upon speculation regarding a proprietary process.
In fact, each serving of Original Limu contains 6.9 grams (a slightly heaped teaspoonful) of a blend of the seaweed extract, *with* the mass of mango and papaya purees included. Okay, that sets the upper bound on the actual Limu content. What proportion of this could possibly be Limu itself? We know, from the lab analysis, that each ounce contains about 35 mg fucoidan. On a wet weight ratio with the content in the original plant, that would limit the Limu content to 1 gram, at most. On a dry weight basis, compared to other brown algae products, one would only need about 50 mg powder to match this content.
We do not know the patented extraction process, as you attest. It is proprietary. However, it is described on the website as starting with frozen Limu, being chemical-free, and involving "predigestion". I could come up with some very simple extractions that fit that model (e.g pressing, maceration with filtration), with endogenous enzymes providing the "predigestion". Moreover, it does not exclude spray-drying of the extract, prior to combining with the fruit purees. We just don't know.
In any case, a simple perusal of Pubmed identifies a number of simple extraction processes for fucoidan. I could perform such extractions at home, using kelp powder, a teacup, and two products I could find in virtually any home. One of those is water. Water alone extracts fucoidan, but I could improve on that with one addition.Lar, you are sitting on a gold mine. Why don’t you have at it and come up with your own formulation?
(Aside: My erroneous assertion that mango and papaya purees were not labelled is due to the fact that I did not read the finer print. I must admit to not wanting to start having to wear reading glasses. Presbyopia, age-related decline in close-in visual acuity happens to most of us. Presbyopia means "common eye". I shan't let prebyopia interfere with the accuracy of my portrayals of fact again.)Lar, we have numerous reports of people whose prescriptions for eye wear have had to be changed due to improvement of their vision with Original Limu. Until, you come up with your own extract, you might want to start taking Original Limu with the hope that it would help your vision as well. Actually, the Original Limu would be of great help with your delving into such a grand venture according to many reports of others by increasing your energy and mental acuity. Also, Lar, I pulled up that label as well and was able to zoom in on that fine print and wish I had done so before instead of getting my magnifying glass on the label on, by the way, a totally new bottle as revealed on the home page of my website:
www.limunight.originallimu.com
4. Cost. You claim the cost of Original Limu makes it a bargain (based on claims of efficacy).
All we have shown is that Original Limu is the, or one of the, most expensive source(s) of fucoidan in existence. Yet, in your last post, you say "Lar, you missed my point of taking whatever is the most economical source of fucoidan and work with it."
Indeed.Lar, would you like a less available, more expensive source of the seaweed be used and increase the price any further?
5. Purity. You made arguments that competitors' products were adulterated, with e.g. Siberian ginseng, or colostrum.
Apart from the lack of any evidence that this combinatorial approach is somehow improper, Original Limu is itself adulterated. It contains spirulina and chlorophyll.Lar, I already covered this issue. People from a marketing perspective expect their seaweed extract to look like seaweed. The spirulina and chlorophyll may also have some value as perhaps preservatives as well, I don’t know. Regardless, they are not some hype adulteration like colostrum, gensing, etc. present just to siphon potential buyers from the real thing, Original Limu.
6. You made claims as to the scientific background for the originator of this product, fully 15 years in development.
I fail to see how that is a beneficial claim, in any case, as there is nothing published from all this hard work.
Yet, this "scientist" calls benzoic acid a poly-unsaturated fat: "Sodium benzoate is the sodium salt of benzoic acid, an FDA-approved polyunsaturated fat" http://www.thelimucompany.com/index.cfm/go/Product.QnA/
If he is a meticulous scientist, that is an egregious error.Lar, now you didn’t just fall off of a turnip truck. The extract for the formulation is purchased by agreement from the company that came up with the extraction process by exclusive contract. That company has no say as to what is written up by the marketing team for Original Limu. I agree with you and wish that The Limu Company had passed it by someone like me or you regarding the nomenclature they used for these additives. But, this is a very small, very new company with a small marketing team and they have done a great job with modest resources getting an incredibly effective nutritional product into the marketplace, thank God.
7. Tyrrany, etc. I still don't know what you're talking about, or how I got involved in your perception of same.
The dialogue:
> > > letting them make up their own minds and not having a forum moderator exercise tyrannical control through censorship and rude commentary
> > Oh boy. What rude commentary? What tyranny?
> I’m sorry. Are you the moderator? I did not know. I was not referring to you but rather to the moderator of The Naked Scientists Science Discussion Forum at I won’t give a plug to a pathetic forum.
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/ ???
Moderator? Am I the moderator? Eh? Moderator of what? Why are you even talking about this? I never heard of that place before you brought it up. Are scientists there also asking for evidence?Lar, there was no mention of any evidence. So many of these forums are really proud of themselves and bristle if anyone tries to take advantage of their great forums in marketing their products through their forum at the expense of the participants in their forums missing out on key information due to the censorship of the moderator. As far as you implication that there is no evidence supporting Original Limu, that is an unfair conjecture on your part in that we are trying to discuss a proprietary extract and consequently to protect confidences, evidence as detailed as you would like for perhaps helping you develop a competitive product is not available.
8. "As I have said before, I am no physician and make no claims"
Eh? That is exactly the issue.Lar, read my other post “Original Limu – Nutrition vs Medication” where I note again that I am no physician but I see the value of nutritional supplements vis a vis medication and I share my concept and opinion of the respective value of the two. I do not see that your comment “That is exactly the issue” has any relevance.
I'm not even going to bother with the claims of nutritive value. If an unfortified fruit-based beverage contains only 3 mg vitamin C per serving, what concentration of those other "70-plus nutrients" claimed by Original Limu could it possibly contain?
Lar, for claiming to be a scientist, I find it strange that you do so much discussing but little experimentation. How do you compare Original Limu to some simple fruit drink in its capacity to help the body heal itself? Why don’t you drink fruit juice for six months and then drink Original Limu for six months and then tell me they are the same! Your focus all along our discussion is that man has it all figured out and that you can concoct what the body needs. I prefer to go with what was provided here on earth before there was such a thing as a modern scientist. In spite of my scientific training, I come to more and more a true appreciation of the genius behind the natural world which, in fact, is the basis of a great deal of the pharmaceutical developments.
Anyway. That's my last post on the subject.
Lar
Lar, I look forward to your coming to a knowledge of the value of Original Limu or your coming up with your own product. I do believe you have studied the website in probably far greater detail than I have and should be prepared well for either.
Thorp
www.limunight.originallimu.com
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 26, 2005, at 10:22:57
In reply to Original Limu - Nutrition vs Medication, posted by Thorp on May 24, 2005, at 6:00:22
> I am not telling Gabbi to drop his medication by any stretch of the imagination. I am not a doctor and cannot prescribe, treat, cure or diagnose any ailment.
Gabbi, is a woman, and you'd be hard pressed to *tell* her anything.Medication and nutrition/supplements are not mutually exclusive Thorp. I'm well educated and faithful in my *quality* supplement regime.
Yours, I'm afraid, doesn't stand up to objective scrutiny. This this forum is not for sales pitches, please take your wagon elsewhere.
Posted by Thorp on May 26, 2005, at 11:37:36
In reply to Re: Original Limu - Nutrition vs Medication » Thorp, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 26, 2005, at 10:22:57
Please forgive me for mistaking your gender. And, woe be me if I were to try to tell a woman anything. I’ve learned that much from my darling wife.
What is your quality supplement regime that is so impeccable?
What kind of objective scrutiny have you pursued regarding Original Limu?
I guess that is the nature of educated people, you and me and Lar. Something new comes around and we immediately are skeptical and even have a tendency to scoff at it. And, why? Because there is one heck of a lot of unscrupulous people who want to pull the wool over our eyes and we better be looking carefully unless we want to fall into their traps! I know I was probably far more skeptical than either you or Lar and I have studied on many front carefully this product and this company for over two years now. I was not about to jump into some kind of waste-of-time scam!
How can I not stand on the rooftops and scream my head off now that I have been proven wrong and realize that one of the greatest discoveries in health lies in this crazy seaweed extract liquid supplement, Original Limu? How can we say the peoples along the Pacific Asian coasts with their great vitality and longevity have got it wrong when they swear by seaweed? How can we deny the facts coming out of the government website for the National Library of Medicine (www.pubmed.gov) regarding fucoidan? How can you dismiss the excitement of the industry over this great discovery as evidenced by the rapidly growing number of copycat products trying to siphon business away from the Original Limu. Even prominent health magazines like this month’s (June, 2005) issue of Natural Health speak highly of Original Limu by name.
Look, in spite of my incredible skepticism with accusations that it was just some kind of scam sugar water, I, an educated person, now eat my words.
If you are suffering, you might do well to respond and take it yourself as I finally responded to an 80 year old woman who brought it to cranky ole me! She hounded me and told me I had better take it. To get her off of my back, I finally agreed and am now eternally grateful! I cannot live without the stuff. It is either take Original Limu or live in constant pain, have chronic congestion and allergy problems, have incredibly flaky skin and also be at constant risk for any and every bug that comes around.
There is a difference between an educated person and a closed-minded person! I am most thankful that I am an educated person who is also open-minded to new options eventually. My whole life has turned around because I did not let pride get in my way! How about you?
Again, I came upon this forum in response to a request regarding an inferior seaweed supplement called Sea Vegg that was introduced by a powerful infomercial involving Scott Kennedy. I had a moral obligation to set the record straight and let people know that that powerful infomercial was not appropriate for the tiny capsules of pulverized seaweed known as Sea Vegg but rather for the product the industry is now scrambling to emulate, Original Limu.
Thorp
www.limunight.originallimu.com
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 26, 2005, at 12:55:44
In reply to Re: Original Limu - Nutrition vs Medication, posted by Thorp on May 26, 2005, at 11:37:36
> Please forgive me for mistaking your gender. And, woe be me if I were to try to tell a woman anything. I’ve learned that much from my darling wife.
>
> What is your quality supplement regime that is so impeccable?
>
> What kind of objective scrutiny have you pursued regarding Original Limu?
>
> I guess that is the nature of educated people, you and me and Lar. Something new comes around and we immediately are skeptical and even have a tendency to scoff at it. And, why? Because there is one heck of a lot of unscrupulous people who want to pull the wool over our eyes and we better be looking carefully unless we want to fall into their traps! I know I was probably far more skeptical than either you or Lar and I have studied on many front carefully this product and this company for over two years now. I was not about to jump into some kind of waste-of-time scam!
Crimeny, you sound just like Rod! How much alcohol did they put in your decanters?I'm not interested in answering your questions.
Though you *are* entertaining. I did mention that this forum is not for selling. Please take your sales pitch elsewhere. I really dislike to call on Dr.Bob, it feels like calling in Dad, however, I dislike both being condescended to, and informercial clones even more.
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 26, 2005, at 13:07:20
In reply to Re: Original Limu - Nutrition vs Medication » Thorp, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 26, 2005, at 12:55:44
>Crimeny, you sound just like Rod! How much alcohol did they put in your decanters?
Please don't jump to conclusions or say anything that can cause others to feel put down, even if they are sales people
Posted by Thorp on May 26, 2005, at 13:45:36
In reply to Re: Original Limu - Nutrition vs Medication » Thorp, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 26, 2005, at 12:55:44
In your last post, you said:
"I'm not interested in answering your questions."
I'm sorry, Ms. Gabbi, but you made some assertions in your previous post without support that obligated me to respond:"I'm well educated and faithful in my *quality* supplement regime."
"Yours, I'm afraid, doesn't stand up to objective scrutiny."
You implied that you had a far superior supplement regime and asserted that Original Limu does not stand up to objective scrutiny.
When a person refuses to explain their assertions it suggests to me that there is no basis for their assertions. Again, to me, it appears there is simply a closed mind striking out without reason or support. I would welcome you to prove me in error.
And please, Ms. Gabbi, I do apologize again if you thought in anyway that I was trying to be condescending to you. I just was trying to defend myself against what I consider to be false assertions. Thanks for your forgiveness.
Also, who is Rod? And, where do decanters of alcohol fit in? Please, clue in the confused.
And, by the way, I am not a part of any infomercial whatsoever. I was simply responding to a request asking for a response to a misleading infomercial.
And finally, I have the utmost respect for Dr.Bob and his forum where people can come together and discuss issues and get their questions answered without a tyrannical moderator stepping in censoring out of a whim and leaving his audience much the poorer for it.
Thorp
www.limunight.originallimu.com
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 26, 2005, at 15:33:48
In reply to Re: Original Limu - Nutrition vs Medication, posted by Thorp on May 26, 2005, at 13:45:36
> When a person refuses to explain their assertions it suggests to me that there is no basis for their assertions. Again, to me, it appears there is simply a closed mind striking out without reason or support.
Nice Try, but I won't lose sleep over it.
>And, where do decanters of alcohol fit in? Please, clue in the confused.
Aldous Huxley "Brave New World"
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 26, 2005, at 19:11:20
In reply to Re: Original Limu - Nutrition vs Medication, posted by Thorp on May 26, 2005, at 13:45:36
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20050510/msgs/503202.html
Again, to me, it appears there is simply a closed mind striking out without reason or support.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20050510/msgs/502201.html
>You have an axe to grind
Please don't jump to conclusions about others.
Thanks.
Posted by vitaqueen on May 27, 2005, at 11:03:55
In reply to Re: Anyone sea that infomercial for Sea Vegg? » vitaqueen, posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2005, at 8:57:22
First, thank you so much Larry for your response to my post. I really am very new to all this vitamin/herb/mineral supplementation, as new as last November after reading Dr. Strand's book (referenced in my initial post). So I'm like a hungry sponge eager to whet [pun intended] my appetite by seeking new and valid information. I so want to improve the quality of the rest of my life (triple bypass 2+ years ago I guess can do that to you), but I also want to be intelligent about it, and not jump at every "advertised miracle cure" that saturates all media.
Inasmuch as I have a "guarded faith" about the medical profession (AMA), I do trust at least my cardiologist (to a point). I don't want to take any prescribed medication unless absolutely positively necessary. The biggest issue right now (as has always been) is my cholesterol level, which it has been without a doubt determined that my body manufactures. My diet has absolutely no trans fats, I eat lean meats only and infrequently, there is no dairy whatsoever in my diet either, and yet without statin medication, my # is over 400. I refuse to put another statin in my body for many reasons, and it appears the red yeast rice (2400 mg/day) and/or acupuncture, dropped my # so far by about 150 points (but that was with a home test and I'm not sure how accurate they are.
I have been hearing and reading by the naysayers, that "cholesterol" is over-hyped due to the billions of $ in statin therapy, and that the homocysteine level is really the truer indicator of what's going on in the arteries. Since on B-complex, folic, and trimethylglycine (500 mg/day which I forgot to mention previously), my homocysteine dropped from 13.5 to 9.8. But my doctor is very concerned about the cholesterol # and wants me back on Crestor & Zetia, or the new one, Vytorin. I am fighting him tooth and nail on it though, because I hated the way my muscles and legs felt while on it.
> Sea vegg (or any other product) cannot cram into one capsule that which presently requires 26 tablets. It's a physical impossibility.Common sense at least, tells me that you are absolutely correct. I didn't think the product could "hurt" me in any way and ordered it to give it a try. But I believe I will be returning it. Thanks.
> Five mg of vanadium?!? 8 mg manganese? I'll get back to you on those doses.I look forward to it. What about Vitamin D?
> You could definitely cut some of these out, or reduce doses. In acute treatment of symptomatic conditions, some of these doses are required, but maintenance of health does not require the larger dose. You soon learn how to "listen to your body", and increase certain supps as needed.
Problem is right now, I'm not sure which ones are doing what for what. The combination gave me a somewhat sustained feeling of betterment; I guess I need to read up more on each individual one. Are there any that could harm me after a prologed use????
> You could halve the CoQ10. Halve the milk thistle. (I wouldn't take it every single day, anyway. Give your body a break from herbs. I would take it half the time, or less.)
The CoQ10 was referred by my cardiologist at the time I was taking statins, and this specific one is the only water soluable grade he is aware of. I WAS on 200mg/day, but dropped it to 100mg shortly after I stopped the statins. You feel I should still halve it?
Likewise, the 200 mg of Milk Thistle I started when on statins. Would 100 mg 3X a week still be too much?
> If you've been on the selenium for a few months, you could halve it.
I have been on the selenium (200 mcg) for 6 months; I will take that now every other day.
> You don't need to take the antioxidant polyphenol supps every single day. (lycopene, grape seed)Same for alpha lipoic acid and Vitamin C?
> Oral glutathione is a waste of money, in that the glutathione is digested. Glutathione is a protein, and it doesn't survive the stomach intact. You're better off just ignoring this, or substituting in some whey protein powder (high in cysteine). Or some other source of cysteine, such as N-acetyl-cysteine (NAC).OK. I have heard of NAC. What dosage would you recommend?
> Where's the zinc? I see no zinc on your list. It is the most likely mineral for deficient intake, of them all.
I was on 15-30 mg/day of zinc throughout the winter, but discontinued it in March; would you suggest I reinstitute zinc in my regimen?
> You would probably be doing just as well, health wise, if you took all this stuff every other day. That would cut your bill in half, right there. And, you'd till get all the benefits. Some of your blood numbers might shift a tiny bit, but I seriously doubt there would be any significant shifts back the wrong way.
This makes complete sense. I also forgot to mention . . . I am taking 600 mg/day of Omega 3 fish oil, glucosamine sulfate (1500 mg/day), and the aforementioned TMG. I tried Policosanol for about 2 months, but no change at all in the cholesterol. I am also taking whole enzymes and aloe juice (which has done wonders to get me off of Prevacid), and 400 mg acidopholous which likewise did wonders to alleviate a pain I had in my side for 4 years (diagnosed as IBS, although I seriously doubted it); nevertheless, I was also able to discontinue dicyclomine.
Larry, thanks again, and I am wide open to any suggestions you may have, or books to read, if it will help me to better understand all the health choices available.
I truly believe we are an overmedicated country in dire need of more "unbiased" and objective knowledge about prescription drugs versus vitamin, herb, and mineral supplementation.
Posted by tealady on May 28, 2005, at 20:51:01
In reply to Re: Original Limu - Nutrition vs Medication, posted by Thorp on May 26, 2005, at 11:37:36
<the peoples along the Pacific Asian coasts with their great vitality and longevity have got it wrong when they swear by seaweed>
HUH??? you been there? and longevituy goes with the cold climates
yeah another woman
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 29, 2005, at 1:15:26
In reply to Please Be Civil- Thorpe, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on May 26, 2005, at 19:11:20
Posted by TamW on May 30, 2005, at 9:21:31
In reply to Re: Anyone sea that infomercial for Sea Vegg? » Larry Hoover, posted by vitaqueen on May 27, 2005, at 11:03:55
My family and I tried Sea Vegg and at first I thought it was just me but when my 14 yr old son came to me with the same symptom I started to wonder so my son and I stopped taking the Sea Vegg but my husband was still taking it and now three weeks later he forgot to take it one day and WOW... Sea Vegg made us all feel tiered and Fatigue this was much more stronger on my son and I then on my husband but when he stopped taking it his energy came back he was feeling real tiered but did not know that it was caused by the Sea Vegg but now after almost a week off he is back to normal. We Could not find any one who had tried the stuff I search for a long time and or any symptoms from it but well we got our answer now so be carefull if you are trying Sea Vegg don't know if you would get the same result but all 3 of us who tried it got the same result at different levels but still same results. Mine was the worst I almost colapsed and I do have HypoThryroid Disease. Again Good Luck...
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