Posted by Thorp on May 24, 2005, at 14:03:39
In reply to Re: Original Limu » Thorp, posted by Larry Hoover on May 24, 2005, at 10:29:20
Let's get to my axe.
1. You originally claimed the activity of Limu was related to fucoidan. The Original Limu website also points directly at fucoidan as the special ingredient in Limu (after 15 years of R and D, remember). http://www.thelimucompany.com/index.cfm/go/Product.QnA/
I showed that fucoidan is not exclusive to Limu.Lar, I tried suggesting it is the fucoidan in synergy with all the other minerals and nutrients through the extraction process that gives Original Limu its exceptional value.
2. You originally claimed that there are over 600 Pubmed references attesting to the potency and efficacy of fucoidan.
I showed that none of those references can be applied to Original Limu specifically (the genus and species *are not even mentioned* in the entire Pubmed database). However, a small handful of those references can be applied to kelp (also known as Limu).
All the other articles refer to other members of a vast family of edible brown algae, demonstrating the complete absence of a unique activity confined to Sphaerotrichia divaricata, from which Original Limu is derived. Rather, this is a general property of an entire class of plant life.Lar, I already covered this issue noting that the studies had no intestinal lining barrier to overcome to do the wonders reported in the studies and that Original Limu as I suspect gets through the intestinal lining where the nutrients of simple dried kelp powder may not be so inclined. But, this discussion is really just a shot in the dark until the research supporting my conjectures support me. We are trying to explain everything without having all the facts because this is a proprietary extract.
3. When confronted with those arguments, you then claim that it is the extraction process, which renders Limu uniquely "bioactive". That drying would perhaps render the fucoidan inactive (a speculative argument).
Lar, I never said that drying would render the fucoidan inactive, I just said that I suspect that the proprietary extraction process made the fucoidan in Original Limu more bioactive or more bio accessible as in being more absorbable through the intestinal lining. Again, it is hard to make arguments upon speculation regarding a proprietary process.
In fact, each serving of Original Limu contains 6.9 grams (a slightly heaped teaspoonful) of a blend of the seaweed extract, *with* the mass of mango and papaya purees included. Okay, that sets the upper bound on the actual Limu content. What proportion of this could possibly be Limu itself? We know, from the lab analysis, that each ounce contains about 35 mg fucoidan. On a wet weight ratio with the content in the original plant, that would limit the Limu content to 1 gram, at most. On a dry weight basis, compared to other brown algae products, one would only need about 50 mg powder to match this content.
We do not know the patented extraction process, as you attest. It is proprietary. However, it is described on the website as starting with frozen Limu, being chemical-free, and involving "predigestion". I could come up with some very simple extractions that fit that model (e.g pressing, maceration with filtration), with endogenous enzymes providing the "predigestion". Moreover, it does not exclude spray-drying of the extract, prior to combining with the fruit purees. We just don't know.
In any case, a simple perusal of Pubmed identifies a number of simple extraction processes for fucoidan. I could perform such extractions at home, using kelp powder, a teacup, and two products I could find in virtually any home. One of those is water. Water alone extracts fucoidan, but I could improve on that with one addition.Lar, you are sitting on a gold mine. Why don’t you have at it and come up with your own formulation?
(Aside: My erroneous assertion that mango and papaya purees were not labelled is due to the fact that I did not read the finer print. I must admit to not wanting to start having to wear reading glasses. Presbyopia, age-related decline in close-in visual acuity happens to most of us. Presbyopia means "common eye". I shan't let prebyopia interfere with the accuracy of my portrayals of fact again.)Lar, we have numerous reports of people whose prescriptions for eye wear have had to be changed due to improvement of their vision with Original Limu. Until, you come up with your own extract, you might want to start taking Original Limu with the hope that it would help your vision as well. Actually, the Original Limu would be of great help with your delving into such a grand venture according to many reports of others by increasing your energy and mental acuity. Also, Lar, I pulled up that label as well and was able to zoom in on that fine print and wish I had done so before instead of getting my magnifying glass on the label on, by the way, a totally new bottle as revealed on the home page of my website:
www.limunight.originallimu.com
4. Cost. You claim the cost of Original Limu makes it a bargain (based on claims of efficacy).
All we have shown is that Original Limu is the, or one of the, most expensive source(s) of fucoidan in existence. Yet, in your last post, you say "Lar, you missed my point of taking whatever is the most economical source of fucoidan and work with it."
Indeed.Lar, would you like a less available, more expensive source of the seaweed be used and increase the price any further?
5. Purity. You made arguments that competitors' products were adulterated, with e.g. Siberian ginseng, or colostrum.
Apart from the lack of any evidence that this combinatorial approach is somehow improper, Original Limu is itself adulterated. It contains spirulina and chlorophyll.Lar, I already covered this issue. People from a marketing perspective expect their seaweed extract to look like seaweed. The spirulina and chlorophyll may also have some value as perhaps preservatives as well, I don’t know. Regardless, they are not some hype adulteration like colostrum, gensing, etc. present just to siphon potential buyers from the real thing, Original Limu.
6. You made claims as to the scientific background for the originator of this product, fully 15 years in development.
I fail to see how that is a beneficial claim, in any case, as there is nothing published from all this hard work.
Yet, this "scientist" calls benzoic acid a poly-unsaturated fat: "Sodium benzoate is the sodium salt of benzoic acid, an FDA-approved polyunsaturated fat" http://www.thelimucompany.com/index.cfm/go/Product.QnA/
If he is a meticulous scientist, that is an egregious error.Lar, now you didn’t just fall off of a turnip truck. The extract for the formulation is purchased by agreement from the company that came up with the extraction process by exclusive contract. That company has no say as to what is written up by the marketing team for Original Limu. I agree with you and wish that The Limu Company had passed it by someone like me or you regarding the nomenclature they used for these additives. But, this is a very small, very new company with a small marketing team and they have done a great job with modest resources getting an incredibly effective nutritional product into the marketplace, thank God.
7. Tyrrany, etc. I still don't know what you're talking about, or how I got involved in your perception of same.
The dialogue:
> > > letting them make up their own minds and not having a forum moderator exercise tyrannical control through censorship and rude commentary
> > Oh boy. What rude commentary? What tyranny?
> I’m sorry. Are you the moderator? I did not know. I was not referring to you but rather to the moderator of The Naked Scientists Science Discussion Forum at I won’t give a plug to a pathetic forum.
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/ ???
Moderator? Am I the moderator? Eh? Moderator of what? Why are you even talking about this? I never heard of that place before you brought it up. Are scientists there also asking for evidence?Lar, there was no mention of any evidence. So many of these forums are really proud of themselves and bristle if anyone tries to take advantage of their great forums in marketing their products through their forum at the expense of the participants in their forums missing out on key information due to the censorship of the moderator. As far as you implication that there is no evidence supporting Original Limu, that is an unfair conjecture on your part in that we are trying to discuss a proprietary extract and consequently to protect confidences, evidence as detailed as you would like for perhaps helping you develop a competitive product is not available.
8. "As I have said before, I am no physician and make no claims"
Eh? That is exactly the issue.Lar, read my other post “Original Limu – Nutrition vs Medication” where I note again that I am no physician but I see the value of nutritional supplements vis a vis medication and I share my concept and opinion of the respective value of the two. I do not see that your comment “That is exactly the issue” has any relevance.
I'm not even going to bother with the claims of nutritive value. If an unfortified fruit-based beverage contains only 3 mg vitamin C per serving, what concentration of those other "70-plus nutrients" claimed by Original Limu could it possibly contain?
Lar, for claiming to be a scientist, I find it strange that you do so much discussing but little experimentation. How do you compare Original Limu to some simple fruit drink in its capacity to help the body heal itself? Why don’t you drink fruit juice for six months and then drink Original Limu for six months and then tell me they are the same! Your focus all along our discussion is that man has it all figured out and that you can concoct what the body needs. I prefer to go with what was provided here on earth before there was such a thing as a modern scientist. In spite of my scientific training, I come to more and more a true appreciation of the genius behind the natural world which, in fact, is the basis of a great deal of the pharmaceutical developments.
Anyway. That's my last post on the subject.
Lar
Lar, I look forward to your coming to a knowledge of the value of Original Limu or your coming up with your own product. I do believe you have studied the website in probably far greater detail than I have and should be prepared well for either.
Thorp
www.limunight.originallimu.com
poster:Thorp
thread:469333
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20050510/msgs/502269.html