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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 9 to 33 of 33. Go back in thread:
Posted by JayMac on October 2, 2008, at 22:16:27
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....?, posted by k9lover on October 2, 2008, at 17:54:10
I've found google to be a very necessary resource whenever I meet someone new and I want to know more. A couple years ago, I had a T who invited us (we were her therapy group) into her home for our last "session." It was neat. I met her husband and visited with her daughter, whom I had met previously, but I got to play with her daughter. That was so exciting for me. That was a different context though. She had different boundaries than my current T, not good or bad boundaries, just a different framework. Not to say she didn't help me, she taught me about taking care of myself. I didn't have much transference with that T. I have MAJOR transference with my current T.
Anyways, I think it's necessary to know a little something about a potential T.
Thank you for your input! =)
Posted by JayMac on October 2, 2008, at 22:17:34
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....?, posted by JayMac on October 2, 2008, at 22:16:27
Opps! The above post was meant to be a response to k9lover. =)
Posted by Nadezda on October 3, 2008, at 10:58:13
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....? » lucie lu, posted by JayMac on October 2, 2008, at 22:09:21
If you do feel a strong need to be near her, to see her or to go to her house between appointments, one approach could be to have her record something or give you a token of her presence, so you don't need to go through these experiences that evoke shame and guilt.
It's hard, when you need more contact than the hour provides and it may help to have other ways of keeping her present. While she may have boundaries about these things-- most Ts are willing to do something to provide that support.
For that reason if not for all the others, it's worth discussing the issue of your feelings between appointments and the difficulty you have maintaining the connection in her absence.
Nadezda
Posted by Phillipa on October 3, 2008, at 12:52:45
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....? » JayMac, posted by Nadezda on October 3, 2008, at 10:58:13
Years ago a lot of pdocs and therapists had offices in their house you would see their families animals out the windows. Didn't think much of it it was the thing then. Recently with my husband in a store he saw the old T I had here And I didn't care and she didn't see him. It's just not a thing with me. To me they are no different then us they shop, they eat, sleep, live in houses. Oh another pdoc I had he knew I knew where he lived he didn't care was on the way to his office. I personally just find them people like us probably also with problems. Now this is just me and my own experiences and thoughts. Love Phillipa
Posted by JayMac on October 3, 2008, at 12:59:47
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....? » JayMac, posted by Nadezda on October 3, 2008, at 10:58:13
I saw my T this morning. During the first half, we spoke about my past romantic relationships. I had to stop though, and I told her that I want to continue the topic, but I needed to discuss another issue. I told her that I went searching for her late at night, even though she was away visiting family. I told her that I've been googling her and have found out more information about her. I told her that I think I came across her address. I didn't give specifics, I didn't tell her the address that I think she lives at. I don't know if that was necessary to say. I told her that if I was in a lot of hurt and pain that I would want to go to her house and knock on her door, but I'm also afraid of that. She asked me what I was afriad of, I said that she will open and be upset. I said there's a 99.9% chance that I would not do it. I'm even afraid of calling her cell phone and crossing that boundary. I don't know if I would have the nerve to knock on her front door.
When our time was up, I didn't want to move. I just wanted to stay there forever. I was about to cry. I would have let myself, if I didn't have to go to work right afterwards. While she was writing my insurance receipt, she asked me how I was feeling. I told her I wanted to cry. She asked me where that was coming from, and I told her that I think I'm grieving my mom. She warmly agreed (we have previously spoken about my needing to grieve about my lack of a mother growing up). I know she could tell I was feeling a whole lot, she gave me a very empathic, concerned look. I was about to burst into tears.
On my way to work, a couple tears came out. I was about to take the day off, but I cannot afford not to work today.I still have a lot going on inside me right now. It's really really really hard right now to contain it all. I need my container (aka my T). I want to feel close to her (major transference: my mom) soooooo incredibly bad.
This hurts. But I know I can see her next week and we can continue our work together. I just hope I don't get too depressed and anxious with all of this.
I don't know if this post makes any sense. I'm typing quickly. Let me know if you want me to clarify.
Thanks.
Posted by lucie lu on October 3, 2008, at 15:45:33
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....?, posted by JayMac on October 3, 2008, at 12:59:47
Hi Jay,
I was rooting for you and hoping your session went well this morning, but the way it went absolutely blew me away! They say that courage is not lack of fear but the willingness to act despite the fear. That's what you did this morning. I was, and am, incredibly moved by your courage. And your openness and caring for your T as well - she must feel lucky to have a client like you, one who is willing to probe painful areas with honesty and compassion. Did you feel your T rose to the occasion, as it sounded? IMO this bodes well for your relationship and an ultimate good outcome from your therapy. I can only repeat - you are awesome, Jay. You have what it takes to heal and move on.
I know how hard it can be to leave after such a session. When it's happened to me, it has felt as if I've been left on the operating table, cut wide open. Sometimes the limitations of the therapy session especially suck, and I know that Ts feel that way too at times like these. Back to the operating table metaphor, have you ever had surgery- even minor, like a wisdom tooth extraction? If not, this may not make sense to you. But if you have, what you experienced this morning may have felt like surgery, and the operation went well but now they have to send you home. They tell you you'll probably have some post-op pain, so they tell you to be very, very good to yourself, take it slow and easy, baby yourself a bit. Let yourself rent that movie you've been wanting to watch, eat chocolates or ice cream (or better, chocolate ice cream!), take a bubble bath, sleep with a hot water bottle. Let yourself recover, give yourself lots of well-earned TLC and pats on the back for getting through a difficult procedure. You can babblemail and post here and get lots of hugs and understanding. Because what you did this morning was great, very hard but a big step forward. You did great, Jay, and you should be proud of yourself for what you were able to do this morning.
Love, Lucie
p.s. Please feel free to babblemail me if you want to talk.
Posted by Nadezda on October 3, 2008, at 17:22:05
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....?, posted by JayMac on October 3, 2008, at 12:59:47
I agree with Lucie lu. Those were incredibly difficult and courageous things to say and the intensity of saying them and hearing your T;s response must have taken a lot out of you. I know you wanted and needed something to help you and maybe to answer and even make the feelings better. And it's hard to deal with there not being any immediate answer or cure for them. Over time, I"m sure you'll find an answer-- or way of connecting to your T-- that will make these feelings bearable and will eventually assuage them.
But just starting the conversation is such a remarkable accomplishment. I'm sure your T also wishes there were a way to piggyback over the time that the experience of knowing one another deeply takes. Just try to remember that that will make a huge difference.
These feelings probably will wax and wane depending on other things, especially the optimism and sense of connection that you feel at any moment in other parts of your life. It's a process-- but the fact that you could be so open and take such a risk says to me that you'll make great progress and won't stay in this place for too long. It's just incredibly hard to talk about these things.
And I also agree with Lucie Lu about your taking care of yourself--you need to relax and restore yourself after such a difficult day.
I hope you can feel good about what you've done.
Nadezda
Posted by DAisym on October 3, 2008, at 19:15:45
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....?, posted by JayMac on October 3, 2008, at 12:59:47
I think these intense feelings ebb and flow in therapy, based on what is happing in your own life and what you are working on in therapy. I absolutely agree with Lucie - be nice to yourself and use distractions to help you through the tough times.
I used to think of it as merging, almost, with my therapist. So when I left, I had to tear myself away and it felt so alone and so cold. I felt this terrifying sensation of coming apart - fragmenting - and he seemed to be the only one who could hold me together. We worked on this a lot - and I think you telling your therapist all that you did today is one of those hugely important steps to getting a handle on your attachment.
It takes time, but eventually you will be able to (mostly) hold on to her in-between sessions. Until then, write to her like you were talking to her or find a concrete way to "hold" her. I have my therapist's talisman and a couple of other little things he has given me over the years. They help. He also leaves me voicemails when I'm having a hard time feeling him with me. Once we did this whole exercise in visioning - I wanted to be able to imagine where he was when he wasn't in his office. So he described his home office so I could really "see" him. It helps but it also tells me these things are OK and he understands how I'm feeling.
I hope you have a good weekend.
Posted by Poet on October 4, 2008, at 11:45:42
In reply to Do you know where your T....?, posted by JayMac on October 2, 2008, at 16:15:44
Hi JayMac,
I know where she lives and did drive by once when I was coming back from pdoc's office which is a few blocks away.
I've never told her that I drove by, she uses her home phone number so it's not like I had to do research to find out where she lives.
My expdoc worked out of his house which I actually drive by frequently because it's close to where I live (there are railroad tracks in between so I am on the wrong side of the tracks)and I just sigh because his house is gorgeous.
Anyway, I wouldn't worry about telling your T if you just did it once.
Poet
Posted by JayMac on October 4, 2008, at 12:15:05
In reply to Jay, that took guts. You are awesome!! » JayMac, posted by lucie lu on October 3, 2008, at 15:45:33
You are so right. Thank you for all your love and support!!!!! =)
Hugs Lucie!!!!
Love, Jay
Posted by JayMac on October 4, 2008, at 12:27:07
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....? » JayMac, posted by DAisym on October 3, 2008, at 19:15:45
DAisym,
You got that right: I am definitely trying to hold her between sessions. I need her to hold me too. I've told her that I am/was afraid she would forget about me between sessions. She assured me that she doesn't forget about me.Actually!!! ........yesterday morning, she came across an interesting article (in a subject we both love) and gave me a copy. I was touched. That was very meaningful. I'm not exactly what it means, but I know it means something special.
Posted by JayMac on October 4, 2008, at 12:29:18
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....? » JayMac, posted by Poet on October 4, 2008, at 11:45:42
Thank you Poet. I'm sure, at some point, I will drive by, or at least attempt to drive by. I'm pretty sure her neighborhood is gated. Thank you for the reassurance =) It's much appreciated.
Posted by JayMac on October 4, 2008, at 12:32:46
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....? » JayMac, posted by Nadezda on October 3, 2008, at 17:22:05
I try to take care of myself, I think I've done pretty well lately.
Before I leave her office, my T always says, "Take good care!" Sometimes she'll add "my dear" and say: "Take good care my dear!" I always smile when I hear either one. Thanks for reminding me!!! =)
Posted by lucie lu on October 4, 2008, at 14:01:34
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....? » DAisym, posted by JayMac on October 4, 2008, at 12:27:07
> DAisym,
> You got that right: I am definitely trying to hold her between sessions. I need her to hold me too. I've told her that I am/was afraid she would forget about me between sessions. She assured me that she doesn't forget about me.
>
> Actually!!! ........yesterday morning, she came across an interesting article (in a subject we both love) and gave me a copy. I was touched. That was very meaningful. I'm not exactly what it means, but I know it means something special.Jay,
I think she was showing you in a very tangible way that she does appreciate you as a person and indeed thinks about you between sessions. Plus you haved something from her that can help keep you connected between sessions. Really well chosen gesture, no wonder you felt it was meaningful and special, because it was. I think you have a very smart (and good-hearted) T - lucky you! Seems like you two may be a great match.
Lucie
Posted by DAisym on October 4, 2008, at 18:35:41
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....? » DAisym, posted by JayMac on October 4, 2008, at 12:27:07
I think it was proof that she *does* think about you and keeps you in mind. It is as important to emerging relationships to know that the other person thinks of you as "real" all the time as it is for you to think of her as real.
I think it was sweet she brought you the article.
Posted by JayMac on October 4, 2008, at 18:48:44
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....? » JayMac, posted by lucie lu on October 4, 2008, at 14:01:34
I agree with you. It's a tangible object of her affection.
I was thinking about it last night and I cried. I haven't read the article yet, and neither has she (even though it's her indulgence).
It excites me to think that we are cultivating that sort of friendship. Last we were sharing our mutual love for piano and she asked what that means to me, I said that it means we have somthing in common, and she said that she sees it as us forming a friendship.
=)
Posted by JayMac on October 4, 2008, at 18:58:41
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....? » JayMac, posted by DAisym on October 4, 2008, at 18:35:41
I think it's great proof! She is genuinely sweet, warm, and affectionate. It's interesting: she has hugged me once (it was completely spontaneous, it was when I told her that I got into graduate school, and she opened her arms and hugged me for, what seemed like, a long time). Although, she has not hugged me since, I can definitely *feel* like she is hugging me when I'm on her couch or when she's seeing me to the door.
This may sound weird, and don't it weirdly, but one time while I was sobbing and unable to speak more than 2 words at time, I could hear her in the background gently caressing something. I don't know what the "something" was exactly, but, I felt that she was soothing me. I have no idea if she was even aware of her caressing! Nevertheless, it had an impact on me. I love the unconscious mind.
I'm 100% sure if she weren't my T and I wasn't her patient, that she would have hugged me the same way she would hug a grieving child. This may sound crazy, weird, or unreal, but it was more real than I can express. I could really feel that she was *feeling* with me.
Posted by healing928 on October 5, 2008, at 18:52:19
In reply to Do you know where your T....?, posted by JayMac on October 2, 2008, at 16:15:44
I had a really deep dependence on my t a few months ago, but things are much better. He is in the phone book, but I could never drive by. I thought that was invading his personal space, and he would lose the trust he has in me. Try putting yourself in your t's shoes, how would that make you feel?
We live in the same town; I haven't ran into him, but my husband has.
Posted by onceupon on October 5, 2008, at 20:49:51
In reply to Do you know where your T....?, posted by JayMac on October 2, 2008, at 16:15:44
This is always an interesting topic for me. I don't know where my current therapist lives, though not for lack of googling her.
My previous therapist worked out of her home for about half of the time I was her client; when she moved to a professional office, I thought I'd really miss her home office, but it was nice to not hear her boyfriend walking around upstairs (her office was at the garden level) or her washing machine going in the next room. I was still tempted to drive by her house after she moved to the new office, but I don't think I ever did, nor did I ever work up the courage to share that urge with her. Good for you for having discussed it so openly with your therapist! We lived in the same small town and happened to work at the same hospital (she ran a small private practice on the side). I ran into her there a couple of times and found that awkward beyond belief.
This is perhaps irrelevant, but I just remembered an amusing/horrifying story involving home offices. When I moved to a new area and was interviewing new therapists, I saw one who worked out of her house. During my first session, I found out that she let her kitten wander in and out of the session through a sliding door that was left ajar. When the kitten tried to jump on her desk or the furniture, she sprayed it with a squirt gun! I was appalled and never went back. I'm all for therapy animals, but not those who are not trained!
Anyways, as others and you have said, I think that the longing to do a "drive-by" is natural, but also overwhelming. I like the idea of having a "transitional object," but for myself, I worry about becoming too attached to whatever that object might be, instead of trying to find attachments outside the therapy relationship.
Posted by lucie lu on October 5, 2008, at 22:07:51
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....?, posted by healing928 on October 5, 2008, at 18:52:19
> I had a really deep dependence on my t a few months ago, but things are much better. He is in the phone book, but I could never drive by. I thought that was invading his personal space, and he would lose the trust he has in me. Try putting yourself in your t's shoes, how would that make you feel?
>
Healing, I have to respectfully disagree with one of your points. While I think that your desire not to invade his personal space reflects consideration for what he might feel under these circumstances, I think it might not be too productive to apply the "how would you feel" test here. I don't mean to suggest that T's don't deserve consideration; they are humans, hard-working ones at that, and of course they deserve it. But because the relationship is asymmetrical, it is not really possible to put ourselves in our T's shoes. In many ways, they think about us differently than we do them. I don't think I'm expressing this very well. I think what I'm getting at, is that it might be a better solution to the problem to acknowledge and discuss the feelings and urges in session rather than simply not acting upon them.Lucie
Posted by healing928 on October 5, 2008, at 22:34:11
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....?, posted by lucie lu on October 5, 2008, at 22:07:51
Lucie,
I was at a very bad place back then. I even fired him and went back to a t i had years ago. That only last a few weeks. But, I had extreme urges to drive by his home but refused to give in. He was really there for me when I needed him. He supported me after I fired him and he wasn't even my t. I felt that driving by his home would be innappropriate, and I didn't want to lose the bond we had.
Posted by Dinah on October 6, 2008, at 8:57:19
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....? » lucie lu, posted by healing928 on October 5, 2008, at 22:34:11
I think it does help to know your therapist, to know how they would feel. Certainly we've had posters' therapists react very badly to a drive by their house. It would be unwise to cross boundaries that could jeopardize the therapeutic relationship.
Other therapists are more understanding. My therapist has always been calm about things that are in the public domain. For example, his old house was his mailing address on his bills. I ignored it for a while, but it bugged me and I finally asked about it. Because it was a street a few blocks from mine, and I was worried about the implications. Once, when his family was out of town, I drove by the corner nearest his house. My objective was to picture where his house was so that I knew where it was in relation to mine. Would he accidentally pass by my house on the way to the grocery? Did I need to worry about working in shorts in the garden? But there were undoubtedly other reasons as well. Wanting to place him mentally when he was away from me. Wanting to connect. Wondering who the person so important to me really was. His address before that one was listed as his mailing address, not on his bills, but for his professional organizations visible by google. He knew I knew his address, but it was a long way away and I was able to mentally place him. I was in his town near the street (or I assume so numerically) once, and thought about driving by. But I'd forgotten the house number. I know where he lives now in a general way. He described it to me in a discussion of evacuations. I can mentally place him and I feel no real desire to drive by. I have other ways of feeling close.
But the main point is that I knew that my therapist would be ok with a driveby. If it was important to him to not have his clients know where he lived, he wouldn't have had the address on his bills. Moreover, we'd talked about the fact that some clients need to feel close between sessions and do drive by his house or call his answering machine. He said that as long as I didn't lurk outside, or knock on the door, or otherwise frighten his family, it was perfectly ok with him.
I think it's a good idea not to choose to invade a therapist's privacy, defined by their own boundaries. I think discussions about the desire to do something are wiser than discussions about having done something, given that some therapists react badly. But what a therapist considers a violation of privacy differs between therapists. If it doesn't cross their boundaries, it isn't a violation.
(Mind you I hate the idea of other clients doing it as much as I hate a warm sofa cushion.)
Posted by lucie lu on October 6, 2008, at 9:43:12
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....? » lucie lu, posted by healing928 on October 5, 2008, at 22:34:11
> Lucie,
> I was at a very bad place back then. I even fired him and went back to a t i had years ago. That only last a few weeks. But, I had extreme urges to drive by his home but refused to give in. He was really there for me when I needed him. He supported me after I fired him and he wasn't even my t. I felt that driving by his home would be innappropriate, and I didn't want to lose the bond we had.Healing, I'm sorry that you were in such a rough place at that time, which sounded somewhat tumultuous for you emotionally. Your post did sound as if your comments were based upon your past experience with your own T. I can fully understand and empathize with your situation, and admire the obvious regard that you held for your T. I was just concerned that perhaps for others wrestling with the same issues (as most of us seem to one time or another), such a broad generalization might not offer the same good outcome as yours. I hope you were not offended, that was not my intent.
It sounds like things worked out for you and your T and if so, I'm very happy for you and wish you all the best.
Lucie
Posted by healing928 on October 6, 2008, at 10:03:07
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....?, posted by lucie lu on October 6, 2008, at 9:43:12
I am going through something right now with my t, but will start a new post for that later.
On day I was in the neighborhood, but couldn't bring myself to see the actual house. Was afraid he would see me first off, and we would lose the connection. For me, I thought it would turn into a deep obsession. I had weeks where i did a drive by his office several times a weekk. Since his office is on a main road it was "on the way." and that seemed to help. So maybe it is along the same lines. We are all different, and I am thankful I never had to tell him I drove by his house, so that may be a part of it...
Posted by JayMac on October 6, 2008, at 13:10:05
In reply to Re: Do you know where your T....?, posted by Dinah on October 6, 2008, at 8:57:19
Dinah, thank you for your response. =)
I completely understand your point of view. I told my T so that we could talk about it. In her view, and it's beginning to be my view as well: What is not talked about gets acted out. She's mentioned that in reference to some other transference I was experiencing. But it applies here as well. I'm sure I may, at some point, drive by. I've driven to her office at 1am just to feel close to her. I don't think she minds me driving by, as long as I don't knock on her front door. Like I said before in this post, and like I told her, there is a 99.9% chance I will NOT drive by. I don't think she's worried that I will drive by.
I have her personal cell phone number, but I haven't used it. I only call her voicemail and email her. She has said I can call her on her cell if I want to talk to her right away, but, although I have felt the need, I haven't acted on it impulsively. I've called her voicemail and emailed her compulsively, but I know that I have control of the boundaries I cross. Even so, I'm not interested in crossing her boundaries.
All of this is related to my forming a connection/attachment wtih her. The more and more we talk about these things, these very difficult subjects, the more I allow myself to feel safe and feel close(r) to her. What's great is that 90% of the time, she is available when I need her. She's "good enough." And often times, she's more than good enough, not perfect, because I don't want that, but I can feel that she cares. I know I can call or email whenever I would like. I know that even if she doesn't respond (sometimes she doesn't respond unless I ask her to or its obvious that I need her to) that she does get my emails and messages. I used to feel like she wasn't "hearing me cry," sort of speak. She re-assured me that 1. she gets my messages, 2. she gets my emails, and 3. she looks forward to our time together.
Late, late Saturday night I called and left a voicemail explaining that I really needed her. I was feeling extremely emotional at the time, scared, confused, anxious, yet excited. I've gotten better, but I have trouble with affect regulation (controlling my emotions). So, whenerver I experience most any emotion, positive or negative, I don't know what to do. I used to eat to self-regulate. Now I do other things to care for myself, including calling her voicemail. I was almost in tears on her voicemail. She called back Sunday morning and offered for me to call her back so we could talk about it. But I didn't feel the need any longer to call and speak with her.
I know that she feels my longing, I know that she hears my cry. She's there, I'm here. Most importnatly, together we share our time and together we share our love.
Peace! =)(I didn't mean to go on a diatribe, just thought I would explain some more for everyone.)
This is the end of the thread.
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