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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by FindingMyDesire on July 19, 2008, at 2:28:59
Warning: Long, rambling post from a newbie:
I have been seeing my therapist for almost two years. It has been so incredibly wonderful. I have a history with a few other good therapists. (I guess I'm supposed to write therapist as 'T' *grin*) I am someone who can get a lot out of therapy.
My Ts in the past have represented more parental figures for me (sometimes mom and sometimes dad). I'm a lesbian and have really only seen lesbian therapists previously. My current T is basically straight. I didn't really know that for some time (although I suspected that she was) - and when I found out I was already attached and she is really, really good so I decide to stay. It's turning out to be very useful I think, but also very difficult.
I'm seeking therapy mostly for help around issues in my eight year relationship - especially around the sex life I don't really have with my partner - who I deeply love. What I have learned is that I really need to work on my own desire first - just my own relationship to my sexuality and what that means for myself (separate from anyone else, my internal voices, and all of the rules of my world). It's hard work.
My T is extremely attractive and I'm attracted to her. I know that's common, but it's triggering all my shame. So, great - good stuff to work with, right? She has an amazing ability to stay in the room, stay connected to me, and also stay separate from me. She holds excellent boundaries. I totally trust her. So, that's all good.
I guess what I want to talk about is - how to talk about sex to your T when it feels like things you need to talk about resemble feelings you are having in relation to them? (If that makes sense.) I guess that's some kind of romantic transference I'm having. I don't think I've really had that before.
I have really been unable to share too much about the things I desire or fantasize about this whole time with her. As far as I understand it, she is trying to help me learn about myself - and get connected to my own desire, and maybe let go of some of the shame I carry with it.
[I'll just add here that I would never, ever worry about her appropriateness with me. She's very super clean with boundaries and communicating and such - so I'm not having issues about her. I'm having issues about me.]
Despite my incredible attraction and attachment to her, I have never been able to fantasize about her. (I have a very, very active fantasy life.) I just can't. I feel so bad at just the thought of it. Somehow she is protected in my mind from what I guess I feel is wrong to even think! And that has been just fine with me. It's not like I have felt like I needed to. As a matter of fact, it was easier when I couldn't...
In the last several weeks I have been sharing just a little bit more with her - about my sexuality, my fantasies in general, things I want with my partner, stories from my past sexual exploits, etc.
Then, last week I had a dream. It changed everything. It was incredibly detailed - lots of symbolism about my desires, transformation, overcoming my shame, and great sex.
One part of my dream was about my T's caring support of me and included just a brief moment of sexual content where she "forces" me to face my shame and enter a building which represents my desire in the dream. She does not come in with me, but the moment just before then is very erotic for me in the dream.
The whole dream has changed my relationship to myself - I swear. I wrote the whole thing down. Then I wrote and wrote about it for days afterwards so that I could share it with her - if I dared.
Somehow the dream made me feel strong and in fact I did share it with her. We had a great conversation in which I told her many things about me (some I have never told anyone) - things that I thought if I shared I would simply just die. (You know, in the feeling way of wanting to disappear entirely due to the unbearable shame, anxiety, and/or embarrassment.)
She was so GREAT. With her words and genuine support of me, she created a safe place for me to survive telling her about this meaningful dream.
But, I do have to admit that I left feeling a bit aroused. I'm sure that has happened to me before but I wouldn't have noticed under all of the anxiety or other ways I avoid vulnerability.
And since that session I have been thinking (and writing) non stop about sexual fantasies involving her "forcing" me to express my desire out loud to her. Because I'm such a rule follower even in my fantasies - we aren't actually having any kind of actual sex in the stories. She is still my therapist with certain boundaries and such, BUT I create a lot of verbal boundary crossing and titillation, flirting, and have her making me admit my desire for her. It's pretty hot stuff for me. And totally makes sense considering the dream and my personal struggle with desire.
I have always had fantasies about straight girls either admitting that, yes, the want me - or making me admit that, yes, I want them. Plus, these fantasies basically mirror my dream and are a sexualized version of her supporting my growth in this area. I get all of that - kind of. But, the shame is creeping up and starting to suffocate me as I face going back there and seeing her in person in a few days. I feel like she will know this change has occurred for me. I feel like she will read me like a book.
I don't know whether I should/can bring this up. Does it even matter? I mean, in some ways it is so directly related to what I'm going through internally and in my therapy... but I'm SO AFRAID of saying too much, being too much, being inappropriate, embarrassing myself to the brink of that "death" feeling, making her feel uncomfortable, making her feel like she needs to remind me of the professional boundaries (which I TOTALLY understand already). Any of this would ultimately leave me feeling rejected. And do I even need to tell her? I don't want her to be self-conscious or different around me because of it.
I mean, she already knows I find her attractive. I know she doesn't have any issues with that. She's not going to freak out or anything. I don't mean that. It's just that the fears I'm having - would it be helpful to push through them and tell her this new internal development or does it seem like I would just be fishing for some actual stimulating conversation about this? I don't want to get caught going there - even if unconsciously. How humiliating.
This is the longest post! I'm not really sure what I'm asking. I guess I just wanted to talk to others who might understand some of these feelings. Most of my friends are baffled by the intensity of my attachment to my T. My partner is jealous of it. I just want to talk to someone who understands - besides just my T.
Posted by llurpsienoodle on July 19, 2008, at 7:38:49
In reply to Wanting to connect about desire and transference, posted by FindingMyDesire on July 19, 2008, at 2:28:59
hi there FMD,
wow- you've got a LOT going on in your therapy! I think you are very brave to continue to explore these feelings with your therapist despite the discomfort you feel.Maybe something to think about is-- why did the attachment become more sexualized as therapy progressed? Did something happen in your "real-life" relationship to precipitate this? Or perhaps an event from your past (distant/recent conscious/subconscious)
It sounds like you are doing really good work- maintaining appropriate boundaries, yet permitting a real attachment to form. Your T sounds like she is really THERE for you- what a great feeling.
okay, my cat is begging to be fed... gotta run
-Ll
Posted by Dinah on July 19, 2008, at 11:27:38
In reply to Wanting to connect about desire and transference, posted by FindingMyDesire on July 19, 2008, at 2:28:59
I understand about the depth of attachment. I feel an enormous depth of attachment to my therapist. It's definitely the parental sort. Although sometimes I also feel rather motherly toward him.
It is true that there are some therapists who react badly to clients telling them about their fantasies involving them. But you've gotten your toes wet already with your therapist. She's proved she's able to handle your feelings. That's kind of what trust is made of isn't it? Venturing a little way, and seeing the reaction, then venturing a bit further, and seeing the reaction. And if the reaction remains solidly trustworthy, eventually you venture all the way to full disclosure.
Welcome to Babble. I know you will definitely find people here who understand.
Posted by antigua3 on July 19, 2008, at 11:31:05
In reply to Wanting to connect about desire and transference, posted by FindingMyDesire on July 19, 2008, at 2:28:59
Welcome to babble! You'll find lots of support here.
Sounds like you know yourself very well, and I think you already know the answer to your question. Tell her! It can only help. I'm not saying that you won't struggle, but it will help your therapy immensely.
I may be crossing a line here, but is there any maternal transference going on with your T? If so, that would help explain the dilemma, and the shame, because we are taught in society not to desire our mothers, although children certainly go through that stage and it's nothing to be ashamed of.
You should be so proud of your efforts. You seem to be working really, really hard. Take the opportunity that is in front of you and if you have the strength, go to the scary parts.
antigua
Posted by no_rose_garden on July 19, 2008, at 14:00:03
In reply to Wanting to connect about desire and transference, posted by FindingMyDesire on July 19, 2008, at 2:28:59
I agree w/ antigua...I think that telling her will not only allow you guys to talk about it (I'm assuming she'll be able to help you the most with the dilemma), but also maybe it will make your fantasy less shameful/scary...whatever it is, because it will become a realilty.
It sounds like she's a great 'T' (I'm new here too and am getting used to calling calling them 'T's) and would be totally great with this situation.
WELCOME!!
Posted by FindingMyDesire on July 19, 2008, at 15:00:24
In reply to Wanting to connect about desire and transference, posted by FindingMyDesire on July 19, 2008, at 2:28:59
Wow, how exciting to hear back on my post!
llurpsienoodle - you really got me thinking. I don't know 'why now'. It's such a good question. I sense that there is an answer somewhere inside me.
Dinah - thanks so much for your comment about trust. I guess that is it. I'm probably always going to feel like the next step out will be the one that will change everything. So far, my T is nothing but consistent. I just have so much fear...
antigua - I had a big reaction to your post (which gives me a lot of information, so THANK YOU). At first I thought, no way, that's not it at all. But then I got thinking. I don't know about my own mother, but certainly there were older female adults in my life that I had huge attachments to and crushes on from an early age. Your question makes me think of one in particular who played very much a second mother role in my life during my grade school years. I use to fantasize about her... Hmmm... I'm going to have to look at this some more for sure!
no_rose_garden - thanks too for posting! And welcome also. What a great group!
Posted by backseatdriver on July 19, 2008, at 19:49:15
In reply to Re: Wanting to connect about desire and transferen, posted by FindingMyDesire on July 19, 2008, at 15:00:24
Sometimes I struggle with not wanting to get anywhere near the desire-for-the-T boundary -- I tell myself, in a strict way, that I already know the T is not available in that way. This is how I avoid dealing with the feeling that I'm unlovable, which a feeling that I need to bring into therapy. Perhaps something similar is going on for you?
Posted by Daisym on July 19, 2008, at 20:00:45
In reply to Wanting to connect about desire and transference, posted by FindingMyDesire on July 19, 2008, at 2:28:59
I think telling anyone specifics related to sexual desires is scary. What if what you like, they don't? Or what if what you want makes you weird? Etc, etc.
Being able to fantasize is really more about you than the object you elect to embed in your fantasy. Try to remember that fantasies aren't real, and they aren't loaded with expectations. Just because you can conjure up something, and the verbalize it, doesn't mean you are asking your therapist to enact it with you. It means she is safe enough for you to explore what YOU want.
Arousal after intense sessions is pretty common but that doesn't make it less disconcerting. And when we are heard and accepted, especially after really hard disclosures, we long for comfort with and from the person who now understands. It is hard not to want to snuggle up next to them and just be held in those moments.
I agree with everyone else - tell her everything you are thinking and feeling. She will help you keep focused on you and explore what the shifts mean. Hopefully the closeness you feel will extend to your partner and maybe some of those fantasies too! :)
Posted by FindingMyDesire on July 21, 2008, at 21:26:04
In reply to Wanting to connect about desire and transference, posted by FindingMyDesire on July 19, 2008, at 2:28:59
Daisym - Thanks so much for your thoughts! Your reassurance about fantasies being mine and about me (not really the T) is very helpful. I think that is at the root of my issues around desires anyway - what are mine?
Also, the things you said about curling up for comfort too... wow, there is a part of my fantasy that includes something like that. I didn't really think about that before. Kind of links to the maternal thing which may link to some of the shame. Hmm...
I go tomorrow. I have been hardly able to think of much else but what I can and can't say to her...
backseatdriver - I would love to better understand what you mean about avoiding the desire for your T making you more able to bring in issues around being unlovable - if I summarized that correctly.
Thanks!
Posted by Tabitha on July 22, 2008, at 1:34:50
In reply to Wanting to connect about desire and transference, posted by FindingMyDesire on July 19, 2008, at 2:28:59
Hello and welcome!
How about just working backwards from the feelings you have that stop you from sharing it with her? Talk to her about the shame and the "death" feeling. It might be freeing.
Posted by sassyfrancesca on July 22, 2008, at 9:57:13
In reply to Wanting to connect about desire and transference, posted by FindingMyDesire on July 19, 2008, at 2:28:59
I've been in love with my (male) t for almost 5 years; I told him about it. We have very long in-depth conversations about that.
I had a dream that I told him I wanted to worship his p**nis.....i actually TOLD him about that; the reason that it is so ironic is that he is ALSO a pastor, LOL......(worship?!)
Five years ago, I never would have told him that; but we have come a loooong way.
He has sexualized our relationship (no sex); by the things he has said (sexual innuendo, etc)....and touched me physically. Too long a story to go into here; he is the only man in my life; I know I should leave him (as he confuses and hurts me from time to time), but I am not ready.
Alone after 31 years of abuse; is an excruciating thing for me; I cannot bear it.
Love, Sassy
My desire is on "kill"---but amazingly (even with him leading me on), I haven't acted on my feelings....THAT is a miracle.
Posted by backseatdriver on July 22, 2008, at 12:10:27
In reply to Re: Wanting to connect about desire and transferen, posted by FindingMyDesire on July 21, 2008, at 21:26:04
Hi -- I think I was unclear, yipes. I meant to say, I really ought to be talking about my desire for my T in therapy. Not talking about it is, for me, a way to avoid talking about one of my core problems -- feeling unlovable.
That said, something happened yesterday in session which made me think it would be better *not* to bring this stuff into the session. Basically, he *thought* I was saying "I want a personal relationship" and he basically made me feel like a moron for that.
Even though I hadn't actually issued the invitation for a "personal relationship."
Transference cuts both ways, I guess. They feel as much for us as we do for them, and it is confusing on both sides. Or at least, that's been my experience. Maybe I need a smarter T?
Posted by FindingMyDesire on July 27, 2008, at 19:58:28
In reply to Wanting to connect about desire and transference, posted by FindingMyDesire on July 19, 2008, at 2:28:59
Whoa! Well, just following up. The last two therapy sessions have been incredible and intense. That first Tuesday after I posted I thought was a disaster. I went in totally "overstimulated" (her word). I could hardly finish a sentence. Looking back on it I was just excited and freaked out at the same time - not knowing what I wanted to share or what was OK to share. I was worrying a lot about her too - not wanting to put her in a bind.
Anyway, what *was* different is that despite the fact that I thought it had gone badly (and therefore I had done something wrong) I did not fall into a pit of despair as I normally would. I stayed in my connection to myself.
However, I still decided yesterday not to bring up how I felt about the last session and just totally avoid the topic, erasing me. Good plan I thought. *grin* Of course that would have been dumb and my conviction didn't last long - about 20 minutes. HA!HA!
We started talking about what had happened on Tuesday and I basically asked for some reassurance and she gave it to me. She really lets me do most of the talking in general - very concerned with letting me control the flow from topic to topic. But sometimes I need to hear from her and she realized that. She said the most amazing things to me - just seeing me and really getting what I'm going through right now. And not being freaked out. And reassuring me that she will worry about her and take care of herself and that she gets that whatever dreams or fantasies I have about finding my desire are really about me - even if she is in them. She was just great. I feel so relieved.
So now I feel like maybe I *could* share my full story with her. (I have now perfected an 11 page fantasy where I face my shame in front of her.) I shared it with a couple of friends who understand therapy and they said it really says so much about me and my internal voice and conflict around desire. And that it would be valuable to work through it with her.
So, maybe. At some point.
Thanks to everyone for your encouraging posts on this subject. And thanks for clarifying, backseatdriver - I totally get what you meant now!
:-)
This is the end of the thread.
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