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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by raisinb on July 11, 2008, at 15:02:12
My relationship with my therapist, anyway.
We have had these intense ups and downs for three years--amazing connections, where I felt totally seen, understood, and valued--and terrible rejections, that made me depressed, ultimately almost suicidal. Every session I fought her-- yelled, criticized, withdrew (lots of times, I was justified, I think, but I certainly didn't work with her most of the time).
But now it seems--more muted. I decided to trust her, and now I just answer her questions and take risks to tell her my feelings, rather than making her fight to get there.
I don't know at all whether I like it. We are making progress. After sessions, I have warm feelings about her--I'm so happy to have her in my life. I still have all the same fears of abandonment and rejection, but I want to tell her about them, rather than punishing her for occasionally making them come true. I don't really want to sleep with her anymore, or if I do, it's an occasional urge that seems like a feeling, not a desperate imperative. I guess I just want to do the work.
At the same time, I like her so much more. Even love her (I was thinking about that L word thread above, and I think I might be getting there).
But I miss the intensity, and I miss seeing her fight to get to me every session. It showed how committed she was; I worry she doesn't care now that it's not such a struggle. I worry it's become boring for her. I worry she didn't care that much to begin with, and now the truth is coming out.
I can't go back to all the anger and mistrust and fighting. I decided to change and it was necessary for me. My mistrust and self-hatred would have killed me eventually. In a way, it's one of the best things that ever happened to me.
But I'm worried--I don't know what is coming next--I don't know if our connection will survive when there's not so much drama. I don't know if I challenge her anymore. I worry our relationship will just peter out.
Yesterday she said something praising me (usually, I don't think she means this stuff--this time I didn't either), and I told her. She said, very seriously, she had meant it, but she'd think about how she sounded when she said stuff like that. All of a sudden, I burst out laughing! Suddenly, all the delicacy, the way we have to tiptoe around each other seemed so funny. It was like we had been walking a high tightrope, thinking there were bombs underneath the whole time, and suddenly we were dumped off into a bunch of pillows. It just seemed hilarious, this immense relief. I don't know what to make of this. I *never* laugh--genuinely, anyway--in sessions.
I'm scared and happy and relaxed all at the the same time...plus I'm on antidepressants now, and how much of this is meds and how much is real change?
Sorry this is so long, rambling, just trying to sort things out, this is confusing...
Posted by Lucie Lu on July 11, 2008, at 18:46:33
In reply to I think things are changing *long*, posted by raisinb on July 11, 2008, at 15:02:12
Raisin, that's terrific! I really don't think it's just the meds. They may help you clear away some of the mood stuff that clouds your vision, but what you see is what you see. What you've described is not unlike "aha" moments I've had during my 6-yr long relationship with my T. They are really special. The relationship really does grow and so do we. Try to keep that moment really clear inside your head, so you can get back to it when you need to. Relationships all ebb and flow and this was a high water mark -enjoy it! :)
-Lucie
Posted by Looney Tunes on July 11, 2008, at 19:10:22
In reply to Re: I think things are changing *long*, posted by Lucie Lu on July 11, 2008, at 18:46:33
Hi. I think if anything your T cares more about you now, because you have reached a "trusting" place with her. The years of fighting and arguing were hard on both of you, but you have come to a new level in therapy and she probably LOVES that and feels more connected to you.
It's really amazing that you survived this together and that you did not give up and that she did not either. I am jealous of that. She cares ALOT.
Enjoy your new therapy level.
LT
Posted by Dinah on July 11, 2008, at 19:49:18
In reply to I think things are changing *long*, posted by raisinb on July 11, 2008, at 15:02:12
Hmmm... I think I know what you mean.
My therapist and I reached a point at around year ten where I started to trust the trust I felt for him. And we know and accept each other so well that there are rarely any fireworks. I love the feeling for the most part, yet sometimes I tell him I'm tempted to pick a fight with him to pick up the energy level in the room.
But that was a good five years after I first started to trust him. So you have a good long time where your increased trust will allow for a degree of intimacy that more than compensates for the loss in dramatic intensity. It's just a different kind of intense.
And even then, I connect my malaise more to not needing him as much rather than not trusting him. And theoretically at least, when you don't need someone as much it ought to be ok for the intensity to drop.
And I wouldn't worry about her feelings. My therapist worked hard during that period of time when I drove him nuts. He earned my trust in a lot of ways, and failed in a fair number of ways that I grew to accept. But his commitment to me and the depth of his caring are far greater now than they were. I earned his trust and failed to earn his trust the same way he did for me. He says he doesn't become bored. But I am sometimes so I'm sure he must be as well. That's probably because we aren't taking the opportunity to address something. I know for sure I'm not fixed, or even really well.
Posted by Dinah on July 11, 2008, at 19:52:59
In reply to I think things are changing *long*, posted by raisinb on July 11, 2008, at 15:02:12
By the way, my experience was the same as yours in that it was a sudden leap of faith in him. It wasn't provoked by any sort of crisis as yours was. But one moment I was fighting him every step of the way, and the next moment I had decided that I trusted him.
It took him a good two years to catch up to my change in how I viewed him. I finally had to sit him down and tell him to look at me. To look at the me that was in front of him today, after I trusted him. And to recognize that our relationship was completely different than it was before. I think his trust in me stemmed from that moment, so his was sudden too.
I wonder if a leap of trust and faith is always sudden?
Posted by raisinb on July 12, 2008, at 11:44:16
In reply to Re: I think things are changing *long*, posted by Lucie Lu on July 11, 2008, at 18:46:33
Thanks, Lucie! That helps me feel more positive about things.
Posted by raisinb on July 12, 2008, at 11:46:45
In reply to Re: I think things are changing *long*, posted by Looney Tunes on July 11, 2008, at 19:10:22
Thank you for the reassurance :) I *knew* she cared a lot during that time; I just don't feel it as much that we have gotten to this stage, I guess.
Posted by raisinb on July 12, 2008, at 11:48:20
In reply to Re: I think things are changing *long*, posted by Dinah on July 11, 2008, at 19:49:18
Thank you, Dinah--your experiences really reassure me. Maybe eventually I'll be able to give up the fear that without drama, a relationship will be less strong, and that a person won't have incentive to care about my feelings.
Posted by raisinb on July 12, 2008, at 11:59:01
In reply to Re: I think things are changing *long* » raisinb, posted by Dinah on July 11, 2008, at 19:52:59
For me, this one had to be, because I have never done anything like it. I used to think that eventually, she'd prove herself to me, or somehow there would be a long, slow process of building trust. Maybe some of that happened. But the final leap had to be like jumping in a lake. I could've probably dipped my toe in forever, except that I got to a point where I had to make *some* kind of radical change because I could see how I'd end up if I didn't. I chose to do things I'd been absolutely opposed to before--take meds, trust my therapist, and accept myself. Of these three, the third is most profound. I am not there yet by any means, but at least I see how bad for me it has been to live with myself all these years. I feel that for most of my life I was like a fish--they don't see the water as water; they just think it's reality. Now I see the water and I think I want to live on land instead, if that makes any sense.
A leap of faith is absolutely contrary to the way I think and act normally in relationships. So in the end I think nothing but a decision, and the will to do it, would have worked.
Maybe in future relationships it won't have to be so radical for me. And I have to say, your therapist sounds wonderful in many ways, but I hope mine doesn't take two years to get on board with it :)
Posted by Nadezda on July 12, 2008, at 16:41:06
In reply to Re: I think things are changing *long* » raisinb, posted by Dinah on July 11, 2008, at 19:52:59
I've had a similar evolution with my T. For years, we had a stormy intense relationship, with a lot of reassurance and constant doubts. And eventually, there was a prolonged crisis-- not so much about whether I would trust his caring, but more about whether I would begin to be more constructive and collaborative with him-- rather than fighting him, and tearing down progress, moving forward, then doubting everything again.
Noone can ever, ultimately, prove their caring; no matter what anyone does or says, it can always be questioned, removed from real caring by saying, they would do it for anyone, it doesn't mean anything, or it's only because they are a therapist, and you're paying them-- etc etc--you can always call into question their motives, or even that their caring, if it was once there, still continues. It's a Sisyphus-like task to prove your caring to someone who never will trust or believe in it.
Maybe there are fewer firework, and fewer moments of disruption and re-uniting-- but what can replace it is growth and strengthening of the connection, and of your ability to do things you want to do.
I still fight lots of times with my T, because I have a lot of destructive and self-destructive tendencies-- and it's hard for me to give them up, and to do things differently in a consistent way. I personally would never want to go back to the drama and wounding and endless cycle of hope and despair.
And I doubt that your T felt more intensely about you-- because, if you think about it- if someone doubts your caring over and over, you may have to reassure them constantly, but it doesn't increase the caring itself. It just wears you out, and makes you wish they could just accept it. I can't believe for Ts it's really different.
And I do think, in order to move forward in your life, you have, someday, despite the risks, to take the step of trusting. However it comes about-- there's never going to be a guarantee that you can trust someone. That's why it's called trust.
For what it's worth, to me, you seem to have made an important breakthrough, which you can build on.
Nadezda
Posted by raisinb on July 13, 2008, at 11:36:43
In reply to Re: I think things are changing *long*, posted by Nadezda on July 12, 2008, at 16:41:06
That is absolutely true. I'm the queen of figuring out everything that contradicts the possibility that someone cares or wants the best for me.
I don't want to go back to how it was, either. I will talk to her about missing it, though, tomorrow.
I'm glad you think I have made a breakthrough ;) I hope it is. I hope it lasts, at least the good parts of it.
This is the end of the thread.
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