![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Daisym on July 28, 2005, at 19:13:16
I think my therapist proved today that he can handle almost anything. (Almost) I was a sad wreck when I got there today, feeling overwhelmed and very, very young. I kicked off my shoes and curled up in a ball in the corner of the couch. I told him that I had nightmares where my dad said it was better that I die than 'tell' -- and there were other horrible things in the dreams. AND, I told him that I had a bad experience last night around sex. My husband wanted to do a specific thing and this very young voice blurted, "but I don't want to!" and I was reduced to tears. I was horrified -- I never let the younger parts out with my husband. So of course I back-pedaled and distracted him by giving into sex after all. And I felt completely destroyed during and after. It felt like a violation. And it felt old and familiar.
After relating all of this to my therapist, and warning him how young and weepy I had been all day, I looked at him and said, "Do you think I would feel the same way if I had sex with you? Would I end up destroyed and in a flashback?" He asked me what I imagined and if I knew what I wanted, sexually. I said I thought it would be better with him, that there is so much baggage for me with my husband, and so many physical issues to deal with. My therapist said "but you don't know that this isn't true for me too..." I reminded him that this was MY fantasy we were talking about. He laughed. And we talked about going slow and soft lights (I'm afraid of the dark) and the ability to stop at any point. He talked about sex as surrender, a giving over of yourself to someone else and how for me it probably doesn't feel safe because I have to hide so much of myself. And if it isn't safe, how can it feel good, and not trigger this old stuff? I told him I feel safe with him so it is easy to assume sex would be at least better, if not good, with him. He said very gently, "but I know you are wounded. You've shared yourself with me. So the hard part, being intimate, has already happened." He seemed very pleased that I could talk about this without shutting down today. I think it is all linked to the whole "take care of me and protect me" set of feelings that have erupted. He agreed. He also wanted to know if touching was more on my mind and he brought up the writing Tamar and I did while he was on vacation. He said "it is OK to want to hug me." I responded with "I'm glad because I do but I can't yet." I don't know if he does hug or not but I was really glad it was OK to want to.
He was very calm and open and gentle during this discussion. I was in tears a lot. The only flicker of nervousness I picked up on his part was I think he stifled a yawn. I'm almost sure of it, he did the same thing I do, tightened down his jaw and swallow a big breath. And he has never, in 27 months, yawned or stifled a yawn during a session. I could be wrong, maybe he had a late night...but I think I want to believe that I can still rattle him, just a little. God forbid I get "easy."
Now, watch me freak out about the whole thing over the weekend. The hardest part of deep sessions like this is leaving and missing him. I feel even more alone. :(
Posted by fallsfall on July 28, 2005, at 19:27:34
In reply to Talking about Sex (potential trigger), posted by Daisym on July 28, 2005, at 19:13:16
You were very brave today. I'm glad that you can talk to him about these things. And he wasn't overwhelmed or horrified or anything bad.
I hope you can remember that this weekend.
(((((Daisy)))))
Posted by frida on July 28, 2005, at 20:12:37
In reply to Talking about Sex (potential trigger), posted by Daisym on July 28, 2005, at 19:13:16
dear Daisy,
i think you're so brave sharing so much and being so vulnerable to your therapist- i wish i could share my feelings and cry with my t and tell her those things too-
i think you're doing incredible work with your T...i'm so sorry you experience so much pain during sex...
i think it's very relieving at least that you can share this with your T so you don't have to be alone with the pain alone like you were in the past..the other day i experienced a similar thing with my partner, and the only thing that helped me get through the moment was to imagine myself curled up in my T's office, and her holding my hand telling me she would protect me and won't leave me alone. It was incredibly hard and painful afterwards- well, all those old familar feelings which are so painful :-( but i guess for me what makes it a little different and not so hopeless is to know that this time i am not alone with that horrible feeling and that my T can know. (even though i could not even tell her all this).
THat's why i really think that you're so brave to share with your T like this,
i wanted to send you lots of support, and let you know i understand and i am so sorry you're hurting,and also i admire the way you share with your T..i know it's hard to trust and believe, but i'm so glad that he's proven to you that you can trust him.love,
frida> I think my therapist proved today that he can handle almost anything. (Almost) I was a sad wreck when I got there today, feeling overwhelmed and very, very young. I kicked off my shoes and curled up in a ball in the corner of the couch. I told him that I had nightmares where my dad said it was better that I die than 'tell' -- and there were other horrible things in the dreams. AND, I told him that I had a bad experience last night around sex. My husband wanted to do a specific thing and this very young voice blurted, "but I don't want to!" and I was reduced to tears. I was horrified -- I never let the younger parts out with my husband. So of course I back-pedaled and distracted him by giving into sex after all. And I felt completely destroyed during and after. It felt like a violation. And it felt old and familiar.
>
> After relating all of this to my therapist, and warning him how young and weepy I had been all day, I looked at him and said, "Do you think I would feel the same way if I had sex with you? Would I end up destroyed and in a flashback?" He asked me what I imagined and if I knew what I wanted, sexually. I said I thought it would be better with him, that there is so much baggage for me with my husband, and so many physical issues to deal with. My therapist said "but you don't know that this isn't true for me too..." I reminded him that this was MY fantasy we were talking about. He laughed. And we talked about going slow and soft lights (I'm afraid of the dark) and the ability to stop at any point. He talked about sex as surrender, a giving over of yourself to someone else and how for me it probably doesn't feel safe because I have to hide so much of myself. And if it isn't safe, how can it feel good, and not trigger this old stuff? I told him I feel safe with him so it is easy to assume sex would be at least better, if not good, with him. He said very gently, "but I know you are wounded. You've shared yourself with me. So the hard part, being intimate, has already happened." He seemed very pleased that I could talk about this without shutting down today. I think it is all linked to the whole "take care of me and protect me" set of feelings that have erupted. He agreed. He also wanted to know if touching was more on my mind and he brought up the writing Tamar and I did while he was on vacation. He said "it is OK to want to hug me." I responded with "I'm glad because I do but I can't yet." I don't know if he does hug or not but I was really glad it was OK to want to.
>
> He was very calm and open and gentle during this discussion. I was in tears a lot. The only flicker of nervousness I picked up on his part was I think he stifled a yawn. I'm almost sure of it, he did the same thing I do, tightened down his jaw and swallow a big breath. And he has never, in 27 months, yawned or stifled a yawn during a session. I could be wrong, maybe he had a late night...but I think I want to believe that I can still rattle him, just a little. God forbid I get "easy."
>
> Now, watch me freak out about the whole thing over the weekend. The hardest part of deep sessions like this is leaving and missing him. I feel even more alone. :(
>
Posted by messadivoce on July 28, 2005, at 20:45:16
In reply to Talking about Sex (potential trigger), posted by Daisym on July 28, 2005, at 19:13:16
Daisy, I am SO PROUD of you for having such a hard discussion!!! I am proud of your T, too.
I hope you post more this weekend if you need to. You've come a long way, you know?
Voce
Posted by daisym on July 29, 2005, at 0:07:37
In reply to Re: Talking about Sex (potential trigger) » Daisym, posted by fallsfall on July 28, 2005, at 19:27:34
Thanks Falls. It was kind of weird that the emotion that was missing today was fear. I was sad and emotional but I wasn't afraid of saying the wrong thing today. Or maybe he was moving the conversation along in such a way that I didn't have time to get fearful. I guess that isn't completely true, trying to describe what it actually feels like for me was a little anxiety producing, especially when he wanted to know details -- what hurts, what feels good, etc.
Do you think he'll go away and wonder if I was asking for something inappropriate? I hope not...
Posted by daisym on July 29, 2005, at 0:18:57
In reply to Re: Talking about Sex (potential trigger) » Daisym, posted by frida on July 28, 2005, at 20:12:37
****i wish i could share my feelings and cry with my t and tell her those things too-****
How long have you been seeing your therapist? If you think she can hold all of this with you, then I say try it, at least a little. It is worth pushing yourself a little to open some of this up. It helped me to tell him there was stuff I wanted to share but wasn't sure how. We worked on that alot, and we still talk about how much I censor. But I'm getting better at letting stuff out. Of course, I see him a lot too. I can't imagine where I would be if he hadn't given me explicit permission to cry, he told me I needed to cry when or if I felt like it and he wanted to see my tears.
I'm sorry to hear that you are suffering. I hope you will share more about how your therapy is going. I always learn so much from other's experiences. Did you tell your partner you had a bad moment? I wish I could agree with you that I was brave, but I can't face telling my husband how I really feel. My therapist keeps telling me (not pushing me) that my husband can't help me in this area if I don't tell him what I'm working on in therapy. I agree...but I just can't. :(
Posted by daisym on July 29, 2005, at 0:23:14
In reply to Re: Talking about Sex (potential trigger) » Daisym, posted by messadivoce on July 28, 2005, at 20:45:16
Thanks Voce. I feel like I've slid back a long way. But I am glad that I can get some of this hard stuff out. It just comes out on its own now, in some ways. And my therapist remembers to ask if "anyone" has "anything else" to say. It has gotten to be a code with us.
I feel lucky that I can talk to him the way I do, but I also feel a little lost and alone. Merging and separating is so painful.
Posted by fallsfall on July 29, 2005, at 9:00:24
In reply to Re: Talking about Sex (potential trigger) » fallsfall, posted by daisym on July 29, 2005, at 0:07:37
You weren't asking for something inappropriate. And he knows it. He will be glad to see you again on Monday. Will you check in by phone over the weekend (I hope?)
Posted by Shortelise on July 29, 2005, at 11:26:31
In reply to Talking about Sex (potential trigger), posted by Daisym on July 28, 2005, at 19:13:16
Daisy, you are so... amazing. You went into the abyss and came out again.
I would think your T feels glad. You talked with him about the bones of your feelings. Part of what he does is to be the someone you can talk about having sex with, loving, hating, whatever. The more we do that with them, the closer we come to understanding and sorting things out. It's his JOB, Daisy, so you don't have to go tot he place of "I said the wrong thing and freaked him out".
In a way, that makes me think of what you said about your dream about your father. You "told" your therapist about sex with your husband, and now you might go into fearing you've killed something between you and your T. Connection?
Daisy, you don't have to freak out, do you? Your T is wonderful, really wonderful. And so are you.
ShortE
Posted by Annierose on July 29, 2005, at 12:50:40
In reply to Talking about Sex (potential trigger), posted by Daisym on July 28, 2005, at 19:13:16
I am so amazed at your constant source of courage. You have a strong core ... to be able to tell him what you did takes strength. Thank you for sharing. I hope to borrow your courage on this topic one day soon.
Annierose
Posted by daisym on July 29, 2005, at 18:40:04
In reply to Re: Talking about Sex (potential trigger) » daisym, posted by fallsfall on July 29, 2005, at 9:00:24
We talked today...I asked him if he had become freaked out later, he said "no" -- (big sigh of relief).
He said today that it seemed like I was doing better. And he wondered if this was true and if so, why I thought so. I said because I felt completely connected to him, I wasn't fearful that he was leaving right now and I think because there is a huge weight off by having told him about being suicidal.
I think the other piece is that he is allowing me to want to be taken care of. He isn't telling me I shouldn't want that, and he isn't telling me I can have it either. But he is saying it is OK to want it and to mourn not having it. There is something very tender in this grief...and I realize as I type this it is because I don't feel so alone right now. I've reconnected to him in a way I haven't been for awhile. And I'm posting again here more.
I don't know. I don't want to over analyze it. My therapist said, "let's just love it while we have it." Sounds like good advice.
Posted by daisym on July 29, 2005, at 18:45:00
In reply to Re: Talking about Sex (potential trigger) » Daisym, posted by Shortelise on July 29, 2005, at 11:26:31
I don't feel very amazing, just too needy to edit carefully. Surely you must have talk about sex in the 5 years of therapy with your therapist? He sounds so grounded, I want to assume he made it easy.
I think you are right about the dream connecting the fear of telling. I seem to be re-enacting the telling issue over and over again. I think I want my therapist to keep proving it is OK that I told him about the csa. I know it is his job. I still worry. I'm working on it.
Posted by daisym on July 29, 2005, at 18:50:06
In reply to Re: Talking about Sex (potential trigger) » Daisym, posted by Annierose on July 29, 2005, at 12:50:40
Annie,
I know how connected you are to your therapist. Is it hard for you to talk about the subject or to talk about it with her? Sometimes it is easier for me than other times. I'm glad he asks lots of questions because it is easier to keep going. And giving him stuff in writing before has help to lay the ground work a little.
I asked him on the phone today about this. And he said he realizes that I never had a place to talk about feelings and sensuality before, not in a safe way. Again, this was from the discussion Tamar and I had. So he said we can and should do more of it, as I was ready. It was a nice conversation today, I even told him that I felt pretty OK when I left yesterday so I didn't want to mess it up today by saying the wrong thing. He said "there is no wrong thing with me...but I know what you mean." :)
I'll lend you my courage, such as it is. Tell me when.
Posted by annierose on July 29, 2005, at 20:07:15
In reply to Re: Talking about Sex (potential trigger), posted by daisym on July 29, 2005, at 18:50:06
Well, I did talk about sex today with my therapist, thanks to your thread. I guess it's hard to talk about in general, but it's especially embarrassing with her. Like your T, she asked a lot of questions and try to make it as comfortable as possible, and I got some of my fears out.
I'm just so weird when it comes to sex. I like sex, I just don't like to have it. Once the process starts, something happens and I regret getting involved. It takes tons of mental energy to keep me present with my husband. It was a great session. My T asked great questions and helped me connect a lot of dots. Her parting question when time was up was, "well, I think next time we should start discussing your sexual fantasies" (because I had mentioned my husband would be surprised that I even had any). But I replied, "I don't have that much courage just yet." I did surprise myself by bringing up this topic in the first place.
Thank you so much. I have had some great sessions lately. It seems we are all on a roll.
Oh ... this was funny ... my T said, "you have all the ingredients for a successful sexual relationship, we just have to get you over the hump" then she burst out laughing and said, "no pun intended".I do feel her office is a safe place to discuss this. I just feel it is so personal and there is such minute details to get the right feeling conveyed ... it's hard to describe what happens to me. I don't even know. I just don't want to be touched ... except when I do....
Annierose
Posted by frida on July 29, 2005, at 21:11:21
In reply to Re: Talking about Sex (potential trigger) » frida, posted by daisym on July 29, 2005, at 0:18:57
Hi Daisy,
thank you for your post- and for sharing....
it means a lot to me.I tried a lot of times to write a message to post but i find it difficult to share coherently what's going on in T...I've read so terrible stories here and I do feel blessed to have my T and to know she is willing to do so much to help me trust her. She's done a lot...from telling me deep things about her and the little girl she once was, from being pushy when i was sort of..a danger to myself...to showing me caring...
i do know I can trust her. I've been seeing her for around 5 years now. But i find it incredibly incredibly hard to move from the place i'm in... :-( I don't know how.
i tell her 10% of what i feel and want and think...not just about the abuse..about everything..feelings included. I do write to her a lot but she told me that if only at least i could admit what i write..like maybe refer to a letter or something but I don't...except that I've tried and was able to read a couple of things to her lately.I have changed a lot in the sense that now i do feel her with me (sometimes) in between sessions and I trust much much more. But what she told me our last session was that I just can't build from one session to the other. No matter how close, intense, deep our previous session was, I go to the next in total fear. She said I don't talk through the fear, or let myself feel it and tell her and take her with me. I just act it out. :-(
It's incredible but I wait the whole week hanging on in a state of painful urgency, I get there and the little scared girl in me takes over and I can't even talk about the fear. I act it out physically :-(it's very complicated :-(
i don't know why I can't build from one session to another. She told me that in a lot of ways I act as a child, that can't internalize and needs to be reassured all the time..but that it's so frustrating and sad that I can't realize that there is nothing to be afraid of and that it would be much much better if i could go to the next session showing her that i have all the rest in my heart..not as the first day :-(
It is very hard, for both of us. But I have changed a lot though - comparing to before when I could not say a word.I guess if i could just let myself cry instead of crying the moment I walk out it would make some difference...
Thank you for giving me hope- I read what you share and the way you work in T and I feel you're being so brave, you are so honest and vulnerable to him, that takes so much courage and i know how hard it is, and it is so wonderful that you can show him how you feel and open your heart...feeling that connection, and not staying inside with the pain is what makes all the difference to me (the times I could do that)- I am so glad that you are feeling connected to your T.
Love,
Frida
>
Posted by daisym on July 30, 2005, at 1:28:20
In reply to Re: Talking about Sex (potential trigger) » daisym, posted by annierose on July 29, 2005, at 20:07:15
I'm glad she made you smile...nice puns! (sorry)
It sounds like a good start for you. I think the fantasy part is the easy part because it is make believe, it is the real feelings I get embarressed about. I think I said, "I sometimes wonder if I just shifted a little left or moved a little right, if it would feel better." And he said, well, why don't you try that and then "we" would know. UMMMM....NOOO...then *I* would know. I knew what he meant but still...
It does sound like you are having great sessions. Was she surprised that you brought up sex? I must say that I would have thought it would be easier to talk about this with a woman, but perhaps it is just hard in general. (OK, again, no pun intended.) To me it feels a little like betraying some private part of my husband...making him look bad and all that. It is very complicated with us and a lot of the discussion has to be separated from the abuse stuff and the current issues which aren't pretty either.
Of course, I know that this feeling is yet again connected to the prohibition against "telling." It gets in the way a lot.
I'm proud of you. You were brave today!
Posted by daisym on July 30, 2005, at 1:36:09
In reply to Re: Talking about Sex (potential trigger) » daisym, posted by frida on July 29, 2005, at 21:11:21
I'm glad my obsessive need to write things out is helping you. I always worry that I'm posting too many details and everything is too long.
I think it is awesome that you've hung in there for 5 years and are making progress towards talking about things. It is hard and takes time. It sounds like you are pretty attached to your therapist.
I don't know if I could get to this open place if I only went 1x per week. I shut down in a couple of days and we have to re-establish the connection before I can go anywhere with my feelings. I think lots of people have a hard time building on things from one session to the next. I always feel indulgent and self-centered to go to therapy so much. But it seems critical to my progress and essential for trust.
Maybe you can agree to write a sentence or two each day you don't see her. And then read them to her. Like: Monday - Feeling sad today. Wishing I could hear my therapist's voice and get comfort from that. Ate chocolate ice cream. :)
You'll get there. And keep posting here. Your posts have made lots of sense to me.
Hugs,
Daisy
Posted by annierose on July 30, 2005, at 6:57:08
In reply to Re: Talking about Sex (potential trigger) » annierose, posted by daisym on July 30, 2005, at 1:28:20
No, she wasn't surprised I brought up sex. I have danced around the issue before, she's knows it's an area I struggle with. On Thursday we were talking about men in my childhood who I admired. I was hard pressed to come up with one name. My father is a decent enough person, but he worked 7 days a week, and when he was home, he was tired, but he did do stuff with the kids (well, my mom surely wasn't going to do anything like play games, color, take us places).
So I admire him for "doing it all". But he never spoke to me. Never liked me (compared with the other children). My T asked me, "what do you think your father would say about that?" I knew, we had this conversation. When I was in college, he drove me somewhere and said, "how come you and I never talk?" I guess I was snarly that day because I replied, "I don't know dad, you're the grown-up." Him: "You see, that's the trouble." That was the end of his only attempt to find out anything about me. He loves my little boy, but barely says "hi" to my daughter (her personality is similar to mine, for better or worse) and to this day, never tries to hold a conversation with me besides very surface stuff. My T thinks I make him feel uncomfortable.
Boy, has this replied taken a U-turn. Lots of stuff is coming to the surface. And I'm gald that even though I started talking about the "hard stuff" right before she went on vacation, we are right back at it. Now I leave at the end of next week. Oh well.
Thanks for listening.
Oh, and here is some more news. Last night, my husband and I actually discussed all of this. How my lack of connections with men in my past is tied up to my current sex life ... it was a great start, I began to cry and he was really comforting. And guess how it ended up ...
Have you tried to discuss these sexual issues with your husband? I know he doesn't know about the csa, but in general, does he know how difficult these intimate situations are for you?
Annierose
Posted by daisym on July 30, 2005, at 13:34:30
In reply to Re: Talking about Sex (potential trigger) » daisym, posted by annierose on July 30, 2005, at 6:57:08
Sounds like you are really pushing yourself Annie, I admire that. Dad stuff is almost as hard as mom stuff, they seem like creatures from a different planet sometimes.
I'm glad you could talk to your husband and he responded well. When I try to talk to my husband about being depressed in general, it usually ends up the same way, but only because that is the only way he knows how to comfort me. We've talked about our sex life a few times in the past year, which is more than we've done for most of our marriage. It is hard for me and for him. His physical problems are an issue for him and I think sex is tied to mortality and vitality for men. So he needs to sort out some of this for himself.
My therapist keeps telling me that I need to "train him." He says that "we men" need training about how to listen and comfort and be sensitive. I guess I'm not consistent in my training methods. More likely, we are both so immersed in our our angst that we are having a tough time owning each of our part in all of this. Complicated, isn't it?
Posted by Poet on July 30, 2005, at 13:39:04
In reply to Talking about Sex (potential trigger), posted by Daisym on July 28, 2005, at 19:13:16
Hi Daisy,
When I was journaling I let my T read about CSA and how adult me has no interest in sex. I am not ready to talk more about it with her, so I give you much credit for allowing a part of yourself to speak up.
My husband thinks it's my meds or that I am ashamed of my body. It's not the meds, it's not that I am ashamed of my body (I am, but it's not *it.*) I am so tired of faking it, but I give in, too. And feel horrible before, during and after.
Many safe cyber hugs. Don't feel lonely, we're here.
Poet
Posted by Annierose on July 31, 2005, at 7:09:28
In reply to Re: Talking about Sex (potential trigger) » annierose, posted by daisym on July 30, 2005, at 13:34:30
It is complicated. And no doubt husbands each come complete with their own set of issues, most which never get sorted out. My T does give me helpful hints on how to approach certain topics with my husband, how to say things in a "I want to make this work better for both of us ..."
I am not very good with words, so remembering how to approach subjects is difficult.
I do not feel my husband feels very confident sexually. My issues probably exasperate this feeling, wanting something, then quickly deciding against, confusing him, and myself. It's so messed up.
Therapy has led to some interesting late night conversations between my husband and I. Topics in 14 years of marriage we have never discussed much at great length, or not at all. Surprising how I can be with someone for so long and still find out new things about him ... with sex being the one topic that is gently, but rarely approached. I got to admit, it is I, that more than likely avoids the topic because it usually results in the one thing I'm avoiding.
Really looking forward to my session on Monday to get more of my thoughts out there and begin to sort them out. Thanks for listening and replying. I'm really enjoying having Deborah Lott around the board too.
Posted by Tamar on July 31, 2005, at 16:02:08
In reply to Talking about Sex (potential trigger), posted by Daisym on July 28, 2005, at 19:13:16
Wow, Daisy, that sounds like an amazing session (I typed that 'amazon' first - Freudian slip?).
I'm so pleased that you were able to talk about your thoughts about what it might be like with him. In my experience, I had to imagine the possibility of sex feeling safe before I could ever begin to feel it was safe. And since my therapist seemed to be the embodiment of safety, he was the only person I could imagine feeling safe with, sexually. (Sometimes I still imagine he's next to me, holding my hand. I hope that's not too weird.)
I was really struck with your therapist's comment that he knows you're wounded because you've shared yourself with him, and so the hard part, the intimacy, has already happened. It rings so true. I think it's a good thing to be able to imagine what sexual intimacy could be like with someone who really knows where you're coming from, someone who knows where you live (metaphorically).
I don't think he'll ever think you're asking for something inappropriate. To be honest, I don't think he'd consider it inappropriate even if you came right out and asked him for sex. But I do think there's a lot of potential there for some really good discussion about what you need sexually.
You're so brave, Daisy. I admire you so much.
Tamar
Posted by gardenergirl on July 31, 2005, at 19:18:30
In reply to Re: Talking about Sex (potential trigger) » annierose, posted by daisym on July 30, 2005, at 13:34:30
>
> My therapist keeps telling me that I need to "train him." He says that "we men" need training about how to listen and comfort and be sensitive.This made me smile. My T often says that "we men are essentially stupid when it comes to women."
gg
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.