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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by cricket on July 26, 2005, at 16:09:05
I just got back from therapy and I never usually post until I've processed stuff, but it feels like this might slip away so I wanted to try and get it down.
I've had a really rough week thinking that I want to quit therapy and all the parts have been fighting and arguing. I haven't slept much all week.
I sat numbly in therapy for the most part. Finally I told my therapist that one of my parts was crying all week because she didn't want me to quit therapy because then I would forget about her. Then I gave my therapist a brief listing of what the other parts thought about me quitting.
Then he said, "So what about you? Do you have an opinion?" I shrugged. He said, "It sounds more like you're just the connector for all of these voices. You listen to this one and then to that one." I admitted to feeling like that. "There is really no solid ego there of your own, or rather it's the type of very fragmented ego that is created in the crucible of trauma."
I guess I know all that but at that moment I just felt the wind blowing through me. I am nothing, nobody, just a bunch of mixed up voices. There is really no Cricket there at all.
Then he went on to say that this was a great opportunity for us to create something, to take the pieces that I wanted. I couldn't really hear too much after that. It sounded sort of Dr. Frankensteinish. We will create a me?
Thoughts, anybody? I feel numb right now but I think I might be about to fall apart.
Posted by cricket on July 26, 2005, at 16:18:13
In reply to No Ego, posted by cricket on July 26, 2005, at 16:09:05
Alex,
I hope you're out there.
I know that I've agreed that the self is a fictional construct and that there is no real self in the absolute sense, nothing I can point to and say here it is, here's my self.
But I think that my T is saying that I have no self in the conventional sense of the word either, no core at all.
I feel scared.
Posted by pinkeye on July 26, 2005, at 16:59:28
In reply to No Ego, posted by cricket on July 26, 2005, at 16:09:05
Don't worry about the lack of ego.. Ego is what we build for ourselves over time. If all things go well, some people end up building a good sense of self early on.. For others, it takes time.
And even when you say you don't have an ego, you really actually do - you feel some ways, you think in some ways, you have a certain name you go by, you like somethings and don't like some things. Actually too much of an ego is not good - when you have very definite views and opinions and tastes and likes and dislikes. A more fluid ego works better in life than a hardcore sense of self and likings and disliking. So you got nothing to worry !!
> I just got back from therapy and I never usually post until I've processed stuff, but it feels like this might slip away so I wanted to try and get it down.
>
> I've had a really rough week thinking that I want to quit therapy and all the parts have been fighting and arguing. I haven't slept much all week.
>
> I sat numbly in therapy for the most part. Finally I told my therapist that one of my parts was crying all week because she didn't want me to quit therapy because then I would forget about her. Then I gave my therapist a brief listing of what the other parts thought about me quitting.
>
> Then he said, "So what about you? Do you have an opinion?" I shrugged. He said, "It sounds more like you're just the connector for all of these voices. You listen to this one and then to that one." I admitted to feeling like that. "There is really no solid ego there of your own, or rather it's the type of very fragmented ego that is created in the crucible of trauma."
>
> I guess I know all that but at that moment I just felt the wind blowing through me. I am nothing, nobody, just a bunch of mixed up voices. There is really no Cricket there at all.
>
> Then he went on to say that this was a great opportunity for us to create something, to take the pieces that I wanted. I couldn't really hear too much after that. It sounded sort of Dr. Frankensteinish. We will create a me?
>
> Thoughts, anybody? I feel numb right now but I think I might be about to fall apart.
Posted by gardenergirl on July 26, 2005, at 17:18:11
In reply to Alex?, posted by cricket on July 26, 2005, at 16:18:13
Hi cricket,
It sounds like you had a really important session. But it also sounds very draining and scary. I would imagine hearing your T talk about a fractured ego would be very scary and upsetting. And the way you described your reaction, it sounds like it resonated with you.
I would imagine that feeling would be very scary. Can you try to take extra gentle care of yourself until you can see him again? Maybe find something to do that's grounding like exercise, working with plants, just being in nature, doing something with your hands that you like to do...etc. Whatever you find gives you comfort and a sense of anchoring.
Take care,
gg
Posted by alexandra_k on July 26, 2005, at 19:01:35
In reply to No Ego, posted by cricket on July 26, 2005, at 16:09:05
> I just got back from therapy and I never usually post until I've processed stuff, but it feels like this might slip away so I wanted to try and get it down.
I know what you mean there. Sometimes the stuff that feels really important, really significant, comes and goes ebbs and flows and can be oh so hard to remember...
> I've had a really rough week thinking that I want to quit therapy and all the parts have been fighting and arguing. I haven't slept much all week.Ok. So there is internal conflict about whether the body should continue in therapy or not.
> I sat numbly in therapy for the most part. Finally I told my therapist that one of my parts was crying all week because she didn't want me to quit therapy because then I would forget about her. Then I gave my therapist a brief listing of what the other parts thought about me quitting.
Ok. Kind of like pro's and con's. There are reasons to quit - and there are reasons not to.
> Then he said, "So what about you? Do you have an opinion?" I shrugged.
So there are pro's and con's and you aren't sure how to weigh them into a final decision.
>He said, "It sounds more like you're just the connector for all of these voices. You listen to this one and then to that one." I admitted to feeling like that.
Yeah. I feel like that a bit too.
>"There is really no solid ego there of your own, or rather it's the type of very fragmented ego that is created in the crucible of trauma."
OUCH!
Not that I'm quite sure what he means...
> I guess I know all that but at that moment I just felt the wind blowing through me. I am nothing, nobody, just a bunch of mixed up voices. There is really no Cricket there at all.I think...
Those voices have points.
Things to say, opinions, points of view,
That need to be taken into account.
I'm not sure...
But maybe what you are is the 'rational decider' that gets to see what they think and believe and want and hope and fear etc etc. And you need to be able to acknowledge that something inside your body really does think that and believe that and feel that etc etc. and then there are other parts with other points and feelings etc that may conflict with the first. and so on and so on. and you need to learn how to take all that into account and act from there. so... they are parts of you. because you (the integrated self) are the sum of the parts. but the sum is greater than the parts because it is about the parts being related to each other. that interrelationship is your role...
> Then he went on to say that this was a great opportunity for us to create something, to take the pieces that I wanted.Sort of. But then you have what you have. you have the parts you have. they have the feelings / thoughts that they have there is not a lot you can do about that. all of it needs to be acknowledged. but then you can see more of the picture than they can see because they are limited to themselves. you see all of them and how they interconnect. or you can learn to at any rate...
>I couldn't really hear too much after that. It sounded sort of Dr. Frankensteinish. We will create a me?
yup.
> Thoughts, anybody? I feel numb right now but I think I might be about to fall apart.(((Cricket)))
Posted by Dinah on July 26, 2005, at 19:14:36
In reply to No Ego, posted by cricket on July 26, 2005, at 16:09:05
I think that's what my therapist said about me.
But I figure I'm the same person I was before he said that. So let him say it. It's just a descriptor for what I already experience. Not a very appealing descriptor, to be sure. But it doesn't change the experience. I think when he says that, it's the same as my saying that I have a choppy and noncontinuous existence.
What do *you* want? Do you want to create a unified you?
As far as whether there is more to you than being an internal communication facilitator, I think there is. Isn't it just as possible that you're trying to cope with overwhelming internal conflict and trying to broker an agreement so much that it's hard to concentrate on what you want - other than peace?
You're you, Cricket. I hear a voice that is yours.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 26, 2005, at 19:49:03
In reply to Poor ego strength, posted by Dinah on July 26, 2005, at 19:14:36
I think the alters are different complexes of perceptions thoughts feelings etc.
You can see yourself as an alter - same as them.
With your own complex of perceptions thoughts feelings etc.
Or not... I don't think it matters so very much.
The trouble is the conflict between the different complexes. The different complexes have access to different information and different points of view, emotional responses, thoughts etc.
One complex typically does not have much access to what is going on with another.
I think...
The way to resolve the conflict is to try (gradually.... gradually) to bring the complexes more 'out into the open'. I mean that in the sense of becoming more aware of the perceptions thoughts feelings that are associated with each complex.You may well have thoughts perceptions feelings of your own.
Or... you may not.
Either way, I don't think that matters so very much.
Either way I think it is about becoming more aware of ALL of those responses in there. Acknowledging that they ARE there. They ARE there. And then pausing for a bit... Just so that sinks in and that is ok.
I think the pausing is important.
But then... Sometimes one may feel a certain way because of what they believe about something. Sometimes there is other relevant information and so once you put together the other relevant information then that feeling just ceases. I think thats what the 'integration' idea is about. Putting all the pieces together. In the sense of all the beliefs etc coming out in the open or together in a list. A list of what is going on inside you.
And then... Coming to some kind of gestalt that takes all of that into account.
And that... IMO... Is the 'real' you. Because it is when all of what is there is working in harmony to come to the best decision given ALL of the available information.
And its an ongoing process...
Don't know if that helps or not.
The first Dennett link might help.
He talks about what a self is.
Then he talks about what multiple selves might be.
It is a much easier read than my paper.
He is good at using simple and vivid analogies.
In this case... The analogy of congress and the 'head of state / mind'.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 26, 2005, at 20:00:34
In reply to Re: Poor ego strength, posted by alexandra_k on July 26, 2005, at 19:49:03
> But then... Sometimes one may feel a certain way because of what they believe about something. Sometimes there is other relevant information and so once you put together the other relevant information then that feeling just ceases. I think thats what the 'integration' idea is about. Putting all the pieces together. In the sense of all the beliefs etc coming out in the open or together in a list. A list of what is going on inside you.
Because... Talking about me now... Because what I think happened was that certain thoughts, perceptions, feelings etc had to be hidden because it wasn't safe for my mother to know about them. I wasn't able to acknowledge them to myself but conceal them from her. I just couldn't do that. So what I had to do was to put them out of my mind. Shove them away as hard as I could so that she would never know... And so that is what I did. Those feelings and thoughts that I had. They couldn't be there they just couldn't be and so I refused to acknowledge them. And so that is all very well, but they were STRONG responses. And they didn't just go away. Rather... They kind of lurked around in there and came out as complexes when it was safer.
And so now I have to reclaim them.
And one of the troubles with CBT is that it is about digging out all those FAULTY cognitions. All those FAULTY perceptions and judgements etc. And so there is something shameful about them to start with. And so I just want to push them away all the harder. And I wish to god they would just go away for good.
But it isn't about that....
Its about those complexes not having ALL the relevant information. That is why sometimes their thoughts or emotional responses or whatever are a bit funny. But rather than attacking them and pushing them away one needs to acknowledge them for what they are.
And then. Gently. Very gently see what other relevant information there might be lurking around in the world or in those other complexes.
And that... Can lead to a change in some of those horrible emotional responses / odd perceptions / thoughts about the world...
Just speculating here...
Posted by cricket on July 27, 2005, at 7:53:30
In reply to Ego is what you build - some early, some late.. » cricket, posted by pinkeye on July 26, 2005, at 16:59:28
A more fluid ego works better in life than a hardcore sense of self and likings and disliking. So you got nothing to worry !!
>
Thanks Pinkeye. I absolutely agree about the fluid ego vs. hardcore sense of self.That I have nothing to worry about, well, that's another story :)
Posted by cricket on July 27, 2005, at 7:56:51
In reply to Poor ego strength, posted by Dinah on July 26, 2005, at 19:14:36
> What do *you* want? Do you want to create a unified you?
>
I just don't know at this point.
> As far as whether there is more to you than being an internal communication facilitator, I think there is. Isn't it just as possible that you're trying to cope with overwhelming internal conflict and trying to broker an agreement so much that it's hard to concentrate on what you want - other than peace?
>
Yeah, that's it exactly.
> You're you, Cricket. I hear a voice that is yours.Thanks Dinah. I felt better as soon as you said that.
Posted by cricket on July 27, 2005, at 8:17:36
In reply to Re: Poor ego strength, posted by alexandra_k on July 26, 2005, at 19:49:03
> I think the alters are different complexes of perceptions thoughts feelings etc.
>
> You can see yourself as an alter - same as them.
>
> With your own complex of perceptions thoughts feelings etc.
>
> Or not... I don't think it matters so very much.
>
> The trouble is the conflict between the different complexes. The different complexes have access to different information and different points of view, emotional responses, thoughts etc.
>
> One complex typically does not have much access to what is going on with another.
>
> I think...
> The way to resolve the conflict is to try (gradually.... gradually) to bring the complexes more 'out into the open'. I mean that in the sense of becoming more aware of the perceptions thoughts feelings that are associated with each complex.
>
> You may well have thoughts perceptions feelings of your own.
>
> Or... you may not.
>
> Either way, I don't think that matters so very much.
>
> Either way I think it is about becoming more aware of ALL of those responses in there. Acknowledging that they ARE there. They ARE there. And then pausing for a bit... Just so that sinks in and that is ok.
>
> I think the pausing is important.
>
> But then... Sometimes one may feel a certain way because of what they believe about something. Sometimes there is other relevant information and so once you put together the other relevant information then that feeling just ceases. I think thats what the 'integration' idea is about. Putting all the pieces together. In the sense of all the beliefs etc coming out in the open or together in a list. A list of what is going on inside you.
>
> And then... Coming to some kind of gestalt that takes all of that into account.
>
> And that... IMO... Is the 'real' you. Because it is when all of what is there is working in harmony to come to the best decision given ALL of the available information.
>
> And its an ongoing process...
>
> Don't know if that helps or not.
> The first Dennett link might help.
> He talks about what a self is.
> Then he talks about what multiple selves might be.
> It is a much easier read than my paper.
> He is good at using simple and vivid analogies.
> In this case... The analogy of congress and the 'head of state / mind'.Alex,
Thank you for your thoughts on this. It helps so much. It really does. You understand it far better than my therapist does.
Although I think that he is very well read on the subject (actually he seems to be well read on just about everything - definitely one of his strengths), sometimes I wonder if he has all that much working experience with this. Yesterday he said "Are you just going to be a people pleaser?" in response to my trying to listen to all my parts opinions about therapy.
I said, "Well I hardly think that I am a people pleaser with outside people. But this is different. These are on the inside. I can't get away from them."
I felt like adding "Duh!" but I refrained.
I don't know. Maybe he just feels shut out sometimes. Or maybe, he actually is afraid that I am going to quit therapy. That baffles me though.
Thanks again Alex. I want to read over your stuff some more as well as get to the Dennett.
Also, be sure and let me know how it goes with you.
Posted by rayww on July 27, 2005, at 11:04:50
In reply to No Ego, posted by cricket on July 26, 2005, at 16:09:05
I find it very interesting to read about what goes on in therapy. I can usually identify with some of it. I seem to be stuck in part "0" of myself.
Posted by Shortelise on July 27, 2005, at 13:32:44
In reply to No Ego, posted by cricket on July 26, 2005, at 16:09:05
Cricket,
It strikes me that this T, who knows you well, feels you are strong enough to look at this now. In your place, I might take some comfort from that.
((cricket))ShortE
Posted by cricket on July 27, 2005, at 14:24:48
In reply to ((((cricket))) safe hugs to you » cricket, posted by gardenergirl on July 26, 2005, at 17:18:11
Thanks GG. I appreciate the support. So far I am okay, thanks to so many of you at Babble I think.
> I would imagine that feeling would be very scary. Can you try to take extra gentle care of yourself until you can see him again? Maybe find something to do that's grounding like exercise, working with plants, just being in nature, doing something with your hands that you like to do...etc. Whatever you find gives you comfort and a sense of anchoring.
>
I would love just to go out and play. But it is so d*** hot :)
Posted by cricket on July 27, 2005, at 14:58:24
In reply to Re: No Ego, posted by rayww on July 27, 2005, at 11:04:50
> I find it very interesting to read about what goes on in therapy. I can usually identify with some of it. I seem to be stuck in part "0" of myself.
:) Nice to meet you Ray.
Posted by cricket on July 27, 2005, at 15:08:28
In reply to Re: No Ego » cricket, posted by Shortelise on July 27, 2005, at 13:32:44
> Cricket,
> It strikes me that this T, who knows you well, feels you are strong enough to look at this now. In your place, I might take some comfort from that.
> ((cricket))
>
> ShortEThanks ShortE. I think I do take some comfort from that.
And no matter how many times, I open the door for him to be able to terminate me, he never even goes near that door. So there's comfort in that too.
This is the end of the thread.
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