![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 13 to 37 of 75. Go back in thread:
Posted by rockymtnhi on April 18, 2005, at 20:15:16
In reply to Bad session. Lost my safe place! (long), posted by gardenergirl on April 18, 2005, at 9:20:00
Wow, it sounds like you were jabed in a few places. My CBT T would say that your T was jumping to conclusions (interrupting and finishing your sentences and making black and white assumptions (meds or tx?). I really wonder where he was coming from. This cannot be all about you.
I had a similiar experience a few sessions ago that changed how I saw my T. He said, "Are we going to beat that dead horse again?" regarding a subject we barely discussed some months previously. He apologized later but I think he really meant what he said.
I wish our Ts could tell us when they are having a bad day or just don't want to hear us talk about a particular subject. Otherwise, we spend big bucks on a yucky session.
Posted by 10derHeart on April 18, 2005, at 21:29:33
In reply to Re: Bad session. Lost my safe place! (long), posted by rockymtnhi on April 18, 2005, at 20:15:16
I'm sorry, gg. What a lousy thing to happen - ever - but right now especially. I can't help but think it must be so much worse for you sometimes, too, having to switch to the "other chair" all the time. Knowing what you do and doing what you do must make it harder to keep the hurt feelings about how he was out of the rest of your "work stuff." Not to mention the complications in relationship with hubby when your safe place is shaken. You poor thing.
T. MUST have been having a really bad day around most of that stuff. It was just too extreme. But if he's been interrupting for a while now...that's weird. With mine, I'm the one trying with all my might not to interrupt and aplogizing for doing so when I lose control (ADD thing). But from years of doing this to people (literally many times a day before ADD meds...) I know how awful it can make them feel. Silenced, shut down and disrespected. I never meant for people to feel that way - but I found out they did.
Because there were several different issues, I would love to see you print your post and have him read it. You could always edit it a little bit... But I don't suppose you'll do that. Not sure I would either. Pretty scary.
Over the long haul, I don't recall him being so insensitive, and it seems you two have done good work together. So it seems you have to hash this out - and thoroughly. <sigh> Gosh, I wish I had some brilliant words for you. When will you see him again?
Posted by damos on April 18, 2005, at 22:08:57
In reply to Bad session. Lost my safe place! (long), posted by gardenergirl on April 18, 2005, at 9:20:00
I'm so sorry that happened gg. Guess you can only hope there was some method behind it - somewhere. Don't know what I can say other than you're in my thoughts. You're a good person gg and deserve better. Guess
Posted by gardenergirl on April 18, 2005, at 23:59:34
In reply to Re: Bad session. Lost my safe place! (long) » gardenergirl, posted by damos on April 18, 2005, at 22:08:57
I just wanted to thank everyone and give a quick update. I wish I had the energy to respond individually. As I re-read what I wrote, it's hard to believe how intensely it hurt at first. (um, neon sign flashing TRANSFERENCE?)It's getting a bit better. Fewer crying jags and more able to focus on what I need to do in my daily routine. I thought about calling him, but I just didn't quite know what to say. And then there's the idea in my head that he is clueless about what I am feeling, and so I just didn't want to hear that lack of awareness over the phone. I think I'd rather deal with it in person.
I don't see him until Thursday. I would definitely have called to move it up, but I spent most of today at the pdoc's, at my GP's, and at the hospital getting an Xray on my darned foot. (Officially broken, isn't that special?) And given the rest of my week, there is really no other opportunity to go in earlier. sigh
I think I will bring this post in, but more for my own memory. I'm not sure I want to give him something to read. I've never done that before. But who knows. I keep changing my mind on how I feel. I may yet still email it to him. Maybe it would be better if he were prepared and had some time to think about it first?
Grrrrrrrrr
Thanks for all your support and feedback. I do appreciate it. Wish I had more in me to respond to each of you. Perhaps later.
gg
Posted by All Done on April 19, 2005, at 1:51:33
In reply to Taking it all in, posted by gardenergirl on April 18, 2005, at 23:59:34
(((((gg))))),
What a difficult session.
I'm having a hard time understanding his comment about not being able to help you if your depression is medical. Maybe it's because my T has told me several times that he thinks the most effective road to recovery includes both talk therapy and meds. Your T is saying it has to be one or the other? I don't get that at all. Why wouldn't you take advantage of all the options you have available to get yourself feeling better. Plus, I can only imagine there are limits to both talk therapy and meds. If you combine the two, one can pick up the slack where the other is lacking.
And transference or not, I understand you're feeling hurt by his words and actions. I'm sorry you had such a rough session, but I know you can work through it with him and turn it into something productive. It just might take a little time. So don't forget you can always lean on us.
Oh, your foot? What happened? Sorry, I must have missed something.
Take care, gg.
Giant hugs,
Laurie
Posted by daisym on April 19, 2005, at 2:22:37
In reply to Taking it all in, posted by gardenergirl on April 18, 2005, at 23:59:34
GG-- What did you say about the moon and the stars and therapist in alignment? Thursday was not a good day...
BUT -- I went back in (after avoiding him for three days, cancelling a phone session on Friday and then leaving a message on Sunday but "accidentally" turning my phone off so I missed all of his call back attempts!) and told him I was mad at him. We had a good conversation about how he reflected on the session afterwards (wow - that surprised me) and he thought he came off really heavy-handed. He said he actually thought to himself, "where did that come from?" and realized that his anxiety with me is way up and I pushed him hard on Thursday. AND I asked if he had ever lost a patient to suicide and he said answering me honestly (yes) caused many of those old painful feelings to surface. So he pushed hard back. And I felt it. He worked as hard today as I did to reconnect. We aren't all the way there, but it was a good start.
Ok -- so this isn't supposed to be all about me. But I think your therapist is a lot like mine in this approach so perhaps as you've been thinking about all of this, so has he.
I know you'll bring it up. Something important is happening. It just feels crummy working through it, doesn't it?
I made cupcakes today. You can have one. They are still warm. Or come hide with me in a hotel room. I'll be all by my lonesome. We can play truth or dare and drink the small bottles in the mini-fridge.
(((GG))))
Posted by Shortelise on April 19, 2005, at 11:29:34
In reply to Taking it all in, posted by gardenergirl on April 18, 2005, at 23:59:34
Hi GG,
You could write down concrete examples of what you describe. The old: when I said this, you said this, thing.
Isn't fighting it out part of the process? I always found it caused me to want to sob loud and long, really howl, so I could rarely do it except through clenced teeth. And I wrote a few letters.
What I wonder about is what is going on when we see changes in our T's. Who is changing? us or them? Both? Are they changing for a reason? Are they trying to provoke us in some way, shove us into change?
GG, I am so sorry you are depressed. I don't know what could be going on in your life that could be causing it, if it's chemical or circumstantial, if it's because of where you are in therapy, or the change of seasons, but I do know that whatever the reason, depression stinks. But depression is not a personal failure. It's important for me to remember that.
Many hugs to you, gg. And there is no need whatsoever to respond to this. Just take care of you.
ShortE
Posted by annierose on April 19, 2005, at 13:00:48
In reply to Re: Taking it all in » gardenergirl, posted by Shortelise on April 19, 2005, at 11:29:34
Shortelise - I like what you wrote:
"What I wonder about is what is going on when we see changes in our T's. Who is changing? us or them? Both? Are they changing for a reason? Are they trying to provoke us in some way, shove us into change?"
I think it's both. Maybe they are changing the way the see us as clients. And I think a little of it can be either a conscious or subconscious way to provoke "something" in us, some emotional reaction. Interesting.
Posted by Poet on April 19, 2005, at 19:43:09
In reply to Taking it all in, posted by gardenergirl on April 18, 2005, at 23:59:34
Hi GG,
I am sending your T a hit on the head via cyber space. Right now he's feeling it and can't figure out what hit him.
I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he was having an off day, but it's a small benefit. I'm glad that you can wait until you talk to him in person. He needs to be clued in.
I'm surrounding your foot with healing vibes.
Poet
Posted by Joslynn on April 20, 2005, at 15:30:23
In reply to Bad session. Lost my safe place! (long), posted by gardenergirl on April 18, 2005, at 9:20:00
Well, transference aside, I thought that the whole theory of there being different Rx for "medical" and "psychological" depression was outdated? Isn't it true that a combination of therapy AND meds works best for most people? It sounds like he is making you choose, and that just doesn't sound like the most contempoary point of view about depression. ??
Sorry it was upsetting. Transference makes everything worse, but I do think you have a legitimate question to ask him about later.
Posted by annierose on April 21, 2005, at 18:14:17
In reply to Re: Bad session. Lost my safe place! (long), posted by Joslynn on April 20, 2005, at 15:30:23
Posted by Dinah on April 21, 2005, at 20:43:26
In reply to Re:How are you doing today gg? (nm), posted by annierose on April 21, 2005, at 18:14:17
Posted by littleone on April 21, 2005, at 21:23:59
In reply to That's right. Wasn't today your session? (nm), posted by Dinah on April 21, 2005, at 20:43:26
If you're worried his office still won't feel safe, maybe you could bring some safety with you. I was going to suggest lucky undies, but somehow the ideas of undies and T's together just makes me feel gooby. :)
How 'bout wearing your fav shirt/shoes/bracelet/etc? Or maybe you have safe colours like Dinah does?
Posted by gardenergirl on April 22, 2005, at 10:32:11
In reply to Safe place, posted by littleone on April 21, 2005, at 21:23:59
Hi again,
Saw him yesterday. Boy was it hard to sit in the waiting room. The longer I waited, and I'm sure it was only a few minutes, the more I wanted to just bolt. And on the way there, a couple of times I had this weird throat closing thing go on. Hmm, you think I'm not sure what to say? Anxious? But my throat just closed up a bit like a gag reflex or a very forceful gulp. Kind of freaky when the body misbehaves like that, but always an interesting source of information.So anyway, I sit down and look at him, and I just know he has no clue. Damn it! I know this is a fantasy, but I really wanted him to KNOW, somehow. I started by commenting on how bad I thought last session went, and then I acted out a bit. :) I asked him to tell me what his reactions to the session were or if he had thought about it at all before I told him mine. Of course he wouldn't do that. "I want to hear your reactions." Dude, I've lived with mine for a week. But he won this round. So I launched into it.
I must have said several times that I no longer felt safe. The only way I could adequately describe was that it was like I was perched on a high narrow pole with just nothing around me. No safety net, no stairs down, nothing to hold onto...and it feels like a storm is coming. I really really really don't want to fall.
He never really acknowledged saying any of the things I said hurt me. He didn't deny them, but he just never focused on his own behavior--just my reactions. He even tried humor a couple of times, and when I didn't even crack a smile, I think he realized it was pretty bad.
So his whole interpretation of things was so unsatisfying. He is psychoanalytic, and his whole take was that I somehow needed him to be "the bad guy", and somehow I caused this to happen. Can you hear part of me screaming in rage? Another part of me (the clinically trained part) is saying, hmmmmm, that's kind of interesting. I wonder if I do that with other folks. And a third part, I suppose the whole me, or perhaps the emotional me (interesting comparison..) is saying, well, that may be true, but it still sucks. I want comfort, and I want you to be a human being and admit that you have your own feelings too, that may have bled into the session.
Grrrrrr
About the medical versus psychological issue. My dog, he said he "thought long and hard before making that statement." Think a bit longer, dude. I asked him a couple of times what he meant, but I suppose I set myself up for not getting a good answer because in my question I told him it was b*llshit. He finally said he thinks that I was overemphasizing the medical. I said again that he was the one asking all the questions, and he didn't really comment on that. Grrrr
About the am I suicidal question at the end. He admitted it probably came across "flip", but he said, "I probably also sensed that you weren't." And of course if my answer were yes, we would have sat back down and dealt with it. Not sure I would have...I was out the door without confirming my next appt. Highly unusual for me. I ALWAYS confirm, even though we tend to have a standing.
So he talked more about going to twice a week and what it might entail. I finally told him I felt like he was always warning me off when he did this. Interesting, he thought I said "warding me off." And he launched into this story about another client that I don't quite get, but it had to do with him somehow never allowing the client to get into "scary stuff". And he said sometimes the T does unconsciously avoid going deeper with a client because it's "scary for the T" too. But that's why he gets paid. Grrrrrrrr.
Basically, I think he's pleased, because now we're "mixing it up." And that is what needs to happen.
I really hate this.
Oh, and I didn't talk about anything health-related. Didn't even tell him about my damn toe. Didn't update him about my pdoc appt. which was another interesting experience, although not nearly as intense.
gg
Posted by Susan47 on April 22, 2005, at 10:56:08
In reply to My session yesterday, posted by gardenergirl on April 22, 2005, at 10:32:11
Good for you, GG, for sticking it through and bringing up what bothered you. It's really bad when you don't get what you need in the way of an explanation. I tried for a long time to get my therapist to be honest with me, to make me see him as a person, but he refused .. somewhat like yours. I hope this man doesn't drive you crazy. I'm glad you're learning how it feels on this side of the fence, though. Ask him if he knows how it feels.
Posted by cricket on April 22, 2005, at 15:39:02
In reply to My session yesterday, posted by gardenergirl on April 22, 2005, at 10:32:11
Hi GG,
Since I also had a very bad session with my T last week, I read your post with a lot of interest.
Don't you hate those waiting room jitters! For me it's every week. Last week I was certain my T wasn't going to be there and on a metaphorical level he certainly wasn't. So a bit of a premonition on my part.
You said, "He never really acknowledged saying any of the things I said hurt me. He didn't deny them, but he just never focused on his own behavior--just my reactions."
Is this typical of your T? I guess in some ways it's what they're supposed to do, focus on the client and their reactions, but sometimes it just feels like a wily trick on their part. Client feels hurt, okay get out it by making client think it is part of their issues and why they are in therapy. I'm not saying your T was doing this, but I'm wondering what you think.
I don't get "mixing it up." What does he mean by that?
Do you still feel as hurt by him? Do you feel like you will eventually work this out? I am curious because even though it seems like nothing was resolved this week, you seem a bit calmer in your post.
Posted by fallsfall on April 22, 2005, at 17:05:18
In reply to My session yesterday, posted by gardenergirl on April 22, 2005, at 10:32:11
>I somehow needed him to be "the bad guy", ...well, that may be true, but it still sucks
I hate these interpretations. However, I have found, in the past, that they are accurate. In any event, they do suck.
>He finally said he thinks that I was overemphasizing the medical.
We've done this one, too. And my therapist was right.
>So he talked more about going to twice a week
I think you would find it an interesting and enlightening experience.
I'm proud of you for addressing this head on. This is hard stuff.
Hope to chat later with you about it.
Posted by Dinah on April 22, 2005, at 19:26:31
In reply to My session yesterday, posted by gardenergirl on April 22, 2005, at 10:32:11
Clearly things aren't fully resolved. But the big issues aren't really suited to fifty minute happily ever afters. That's one reason twice a week therapy has its benefits. ;)
It wouldn't have been my therapist's choice of reactions, I don't think. He is always really careful not to use the transference excuse that they have built in. He generally acknowledges that there are two people in the room, and he may have screwed up. Then gently probes as to why I reacted the way I did, which I guess is the transference part of it.
But my therapist is a counselor, not analytically trained. I think those differences are probably to be expected.
Do you feel you made any headway at all? Or at least a direction to take at the next session?
Posted by annierose on April 22, 2005, at 21:13:15
In reply to Re: My session yesterday » gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on April 22, 2005, at 19:26:31
hi gg -
I agree that you do sound less angry, but still frustrated. How are you feeling? It's so hard when they don't admit to having a part in the conflict ... even a tiny part.Did you make a decision on going more frequently? I'm surprised that he is psychoanalyically (sp?) trained and never encouraged you to come more often earlier. Do you see him again next Thursday? That does seem like a long time to hold onto your feelings. For me, I was so anxious to work out my conflict with my T. I was looking forward (and dreading at the same time) to going to get some resolution.
A week later, I am feeling warm and cozy again. So there is hope for all of us in T struggles. It's such an amazing process. Our brains are forging all these new connections and wanting MORE, MORE, MORE.
As a personal aside, I am in deep denial, and plunging into despair over the weather forecast of 2 - 4 inches of white stuff by morning and another 6 - 10 of snow in the evening! Seriously, I had all the boots and mittens packed away. Wasn't it just 80 degrees last week??
Posted by Susan47 on April 23, 2005, at 13:07:16
In reply to Re: My session yesterday » gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on April 22, 2005, at 19:26:31
Transference excuse built in? For some reason that really hit me Dinah. I know what you're referring to in therapy. But it's what my therapist told me when he terminated me, my transference is too strong, to me that always sounded like an excuse, so you saying that really took my breath away. One of the reasons I was so angry with him. It did feel like an excuse.
Posted by Susan47 on April 23, 2005, at 13:09:52
In reply to Re: My session yesterday, posted by annierose on April 22, 2005, at 21:13:15
How awful, the weather you're having. Here on the west coast it's beautiful and balmy yesterday and today. My flowers are all blooming on the patio, it's so beautiful here, the trees have been in bloom for a couple of months now. I feel so blessed. Virtual hug, maybe to keep you a bit warmer.
Posted by gardenergirl on April 23, 2005, at 23:32:18
In reply to Re: My session yesterday, posted by Susan47 on April 22, 2005, at 10:56:08
> Good for you, GG, for sticking it through and bringing up what bothered you.
Thanks
>It's really bad when you don't get what you need in the way of an explanation. I tried for a long time to get my therapist to be honest with me, to make me see him as a person, but he refused .. somewhat like yours.I think my T does see me as a person. And until recently, he was actually feeling more like a person instead of a blank slate to me. But now that it's getting intense, it's back to the blank slate routine. That's a loss in and of itself.
>I'm glad you're learning how it feels on this side of the fence, though. Ask him if he knows how it feels.
I know he has had his own analysis, so I'm quite sure he knows. And I do learn a lot about therapy from my own experience, although that's kind of secondary. I actually try to turn off my "clinical brain" when I am in the session, because I go to therapy for personal reasons, not for training. But it's hard to separate.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on April 23, 2005, at 23:40:19
In reply to Re: My session yesterday » gardenergirl, posted by cricket on April 22, 2005, at 15:39:02
> Hi GG,
>
> Since I also had a very bad session with my T last week, I read your post with a lot of interest.I hope that you are able to work things out with your T, too. Bad sessions stink!
>
> Don't you hate those waiting room jitters! For me it's every week. Last week I was certain my T wasn't going to be there and on a metaphorical level he certainly wasn't. So a bit of a premonition on my part.Wow, intuition at its best. I don't often have those jitters, but this time it was awful. I really did want to bolt, and I kept looking at the door. But the way it's set up, if he had been coming to get me right when I decided to leave, I probably would have knocked him over! :)
>
> You said, "He never really acknowledged saying any of the things I said hurt me. He didn't deny them, but he just never focused on his own behavior--just my reactions."
>
> Is this typical of your T? I guess in some ways it's what they're supposed to do, focus on the client and their reactions, but sometimes it just feels like a wily trick on their part. Client feels hurt, okay get out it by making client think it is part of their issues and why they are in therapy. I'm not saying your T was doing this, but I'm wondering what you think.Well, I don't really know if this is typical, because the whole thing is so not typical of my therapy experience. I do know from what I have read on the boards and from what I know about psychodynamic therapy that this happens. I think this is another one of those, "not going to happen to me" moments when I am knocked down and didn't expect it.
>
> I don't get "mixing it up." What does he mean by that?He means that we are sort of like fighting. We are facing relationship difficulties and trying to sort out who said/did what and why. And what it means. And I think he thinks this is what needs to happen to keep making progress. Joy.
>
> Do you still feel as hurt by him? Do you feel like you will eventually work this out? I am curious because even though it seems like nothing was resolved this week, you seem a bit calmer in your post.I feel a bit better, but I don't feel like it's all worked out. I've been jotting down random thoughts, mostly just bits and pieces of a thought as they occur to bring in next time. There's part of me that does understand what he was saying, but there's a bigger part of me that is saying that just doesn't FEEL right. I mean, he DID say what he said. How could I have made that happen? It's confusing.
I hope your next sessions go well.
Take care,
gg
>
>
>
Posted by gardenergirl on April 23, 2005, at 23:42:56
In reply to Re: My session yesterday » gardenergirl, posted by fallsfall on April 22, 2005, at 17:05:18
Thanks falls, I do think chatting about it will help. It's so frustrating that the interpretation he made doesn't account for the fact that he DID say what he said, and it WAS hurtful.
That's where I'm at right at this moment. But it changes a lot over time. I do think going twice a week is a good idea. I think I am at the point where I want to go ahead with it, but I'm not sure where he is with it.
Something else to check out....
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on April 23, 2005, at 23:49:02
In reply to Re: My session yesterday » gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on April 22, 2005, at 19:26:31
> Clearly things aren't fully resolved. But the big issues aren't really suited to fifty minute happily ever afters. That's one reason twice a week therapy has its benefits. ;)
I agree. And it's going to be very hard to wait a week for my next session. I think the sooner I can go to twice a week the better.
>
> It wouldn't have been my therapist's choice of reactions, I don't think. He is always really careful not to use the transference excuse that they have built in. He generally acknowledges that there are two people in the room, and he may have screwed up. Then gently probes as to why I reacted the way I did, which I guess is the transference part of it.I so would have preferred this approach. I think that's why I was asking him for his reactions first (and failed), because I knew I would not get them if we went straight to mine. sigh I know that transference is at play here, because otherwise, my reaction would not have been so intense. But couldn't he have been having a bad day too? In fact, I swear he alluded to that towards the end of that bad session, anyway. I can't remember exactly how or what he might have said, but I know I felt that he was acknowledging that this session was not great and that he was not 100 percent. But who knows. Perhaps I needed to think that, too, and pulled that out. It's so confusing!
>
> Do you feel you made any headway at all? Or at least a direction to take at the next session?I do feel like we made some headway. Shoot, at first, he tried to go right into "have you ever felt this way before?" And I came back with "Of COURSE I have!" aka "What a dumb question, and SO NOT what you should be doing right now."
I assume we will go there once the relationship is back on track. Because I was not at all ready or willing to explore this until we resolved the relationship issue.
gg
>
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.