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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on October 10, 2004, at 9:02:50
I feel dreadful. Mornings before my defenses are up are the absolute worst times. Yet I've maintained a facade that covers the fact that I'm functionally incapacitated. So people keep expecting stuff from me.
Even what appear to me to be clear suicidal messages are met with positive responses. If I ever try reach out for help, I'm going to be in big trouble. I just present too darn well.
I suppose it doesn't help that I careen madly between knowing that suicide is the only option and cheerfully handling things and making plans for our next vacation.
Maybe that means the suidal feelings aren't real.
I must say, though, that my therapist is the one person who understands what's going on inside. We haven't scheduled plans for next week yet, because he's got a busy week with all day meetings Monday and Tuesday. He called and left a message offering Monday or Tuesday lunchtime appointments or a Wednesday afternoon in addition to our regular Friday. I called back and left a message that I hated to take away his lunch, and maybe we should just wait till Friday, and I haven't heard back.
To be honest, even tho I'm broke from lack of work this last while, this would be the sort of situation where I would usually increase my number of sessions short term to keep me as functional as possible.
Yet I really *don't* want to interrupt his lunch. :( And pragmatically speaking, he'd be feeling rushed and not at his best.
I've been so nice to him lately. He either double booked or another client made an error, but in any case another client showed up shortly after he took me back last time. I offered quite sincerely to wait and let him see the other client, since Harry had died that day and I was going to be totally unproductive all day anyway. And I felt bad when he started late and I started to leave at the regular time, and he was encouraging me to stay because he didn't want there to be anything for me to "throw back in his face later". Am I really that awful? He says no, but...
Posted by Racer on October 10, 2004, at 14:44:47
In reply to Are you ever afraid you present too well?, posted by Dinah on October 10, 2004, at 9:02:50
I know I present too well at times. And the worse off I am, the more likely I am to do my utmost to hide it.
That, as you know, is not always the best way to get help.
That's part of the problem I had with that damned agency -- the more they pushed and prodded me in to that coffin, and the more they ignored my self-reports of still being alive, the more I drew back inside myself, and stopped showing the mounting distress. (Instead, I went back to starving myself.)
Even our marriage counselor, who is actually pretty good at sussing us out most of the time, started making mistakes about me: she'd say, "Oh, you're so much better today! That's so good to see!" Then be shocked three minutes later when I fell apart entirely, crying and shaking on the sofa. One day, when I was so tense I felt as if I was only barely holding my skin on, I asked her if I looked anxious. She said no. She was shocked to hear that I was over the top, shaking inside so badly I could hardly think, let alone talk.
So, I think that we present well because we're exceptional women, but also that -- at least in my case -- sometimes it's a self-protective mechanism to hide what we can, to avoid showing signs of vulnerability.
Hope it helps to know you're not alone.
Posted by partlycloudy on October 10, 2004, at 15:18:44
In reply to Are you ever afraid you present too well?, posted by Dinah on October 10, 2004, at 9:02:50
I have never been "found out" at feeling badly. Whenever I have claimed anxiety, it's been said that I didn't appear any different from being normal. No one can tell from the outside that I am experiencing panic, even when I am describing the physical symptoms. I think it is our camo doing overtime, while the rest of out body has gone on to protect and heal us.
Posted by Aphrodite on October 10, 2004, at 15:58:42
In reply to Are you ever afraid you present too well?, posted by Dinah on October 10, 2004, at 9:02:50
One of my closest friends of 7 years who is also my office mate and someone I socialize with frequently was telling me about her sister's depression. (This friend has her Master's in Counseling Psychology, btw, but it's not her career now.) Anyway, I made a comment about my own experience with ADs in the discussion about her sister. My friend's jaw dropped to the ground, "Oh my GOD! You're depressed?" "Yes," I replied, "Didn't you know?" "Absolutely not!" said the friend. "You're the most together person I know!"
I was amazed that in 7 years I have never cracked in front of someone who sees me over 8 hours a day. My acting skills have also fooled my psychologist on many occasions. This particular defense mechanism, btw, makes it very hard to get the help you need.
What shall we do about it?
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on October 10, 2004, at 16:15:33
In reply to Re: Are you ever afraid you present too well? » Dinah, posted by Aphrodite on October 10, 2004, at 15:58:42
People are always shocked when/if they find out I'm in therpay and have suffered from massive anxiety most of my life. I hide it VERY well and more than likely overcompensate to look "normal."
Dinah, have you told your husband you are feeling suicidal? Your therapist? This is the third post or so I have read from you where this is mentioned. I've never heard this from you before.
I also think it would be a good idea to go back to your regular T schedule. It seems obvious to me that once a week is not working out. What do you think?
Posted by rubenstein on October 10, 2004, at 18:38:32
In reply to Are you ever afraid you present too well?, posted by Dinah on October 10, 2004, at 9:02:50
This is constantly and issue with me. I present as very put together, incredibly energetic, and a great motivator of people. Interestingly enough, I just had this conversation with some girls today about my ongoing battle with depression and suicidal thoughts. They would have never guessed and were almost relieved to hear that I was "human." Its funny that the thing I was most nervous about them discovering actually made us become closer. Sometimes the things that seem the most personal and private in our lives are actually the themes that are universal in mankind, I think. ANyway, I certainly felt some truth in your post Dinah...thanks for sharing
Rubenstein
Posted by alexandra_k on October 10, 2004, at 18:51:01
In reply to Are you ever afraid you present too well?, posted by Dinah on October 10, 2004, at 9:02:50
Yeah, I have the 'apparant competence' thing pretty much sussed as well. Maybe it is part of the tendancy that some people have to sacrifice / bury / push aside ones own feelings for the sake of others. To soldior on despite where one is at. Of course there is also the point that there is not a lot one can do aside from soldior on (or suicide, of course).
But it is hard when 'clear communications' of distress are not taken seriously as well. I think that sometimes that is because people just don't want to know, because they have difficulty dealing with it. There is also the possibility that one may disengage with ones distress so that it is reported in a cold, aloof, distant manner. When people have to choose between what someone is saying and the way someone is behaving they tend to go with the non-verbal cues over the verbal ones and so if you are behaving with 'apparant competance' but verbalising distress people tend to go with the behaviour over the words.
This may mean that you need to emphasise what you are saying in order to be taken seriously.
Can you say to people that you don't think they are hearing what you are saying?
> I suppose it doesn't help that I careen madly between knowing that suicide is the only option and cheerfully handling things and making plans for our next vacation.
>
> Maybe that means the suidal feelings aren't real.Or maybe it means that they are there and they are real, but that there are other things you know and feel that are every bit as real and don't point to suicide as the only option.
I do hope that things get better for you.
If you figure out a way of handling / dealing with this then please let me know - I have difficulty with this one myself.
Posted by Aphrodite on October 10, 2004, at 19:49:01
In reply to Are you ever afraid you present too well?, posted by Dinah on October 10, 2004, at 9:02:50
Let's say we break down the facades. Let's say we resolve to be complete transparent with our therapists. We tell them everything, show our emotions, etc. What are they actually going to *do* about it? For me, just getting it off my chest and letting another human being in on it doesn't make the pain diminish.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 10, 2004, at 20:11:49
In reply to But what are they to *do* anyway?, posted by Aphrodite on October 10, 2004, at 19:49:01
> Let's say we break down the facades. Let's say we resolve to be complete transparent with our therapists. We tell them everything, show our emotions, etc. What are they actually going to *do* about it? For me, just getting it off my chest and letting another human being in on it doesn't make the pain diminish.
I hear you. When I am distressed I am never sure whether it is better to try to tell someone, or whether it is better for me to keep it to myself.
Doesn't it just help a little bit, to know that someone hears you and empathises. They can't make it go away, of course, but isn't that just a little bit better than having to deal with it completely alone?
Posted by daisym on October 10, 2004, at 20:12:08
In reply to But what are they to *do* anyway?, posted by Aphrodite on October 10, 2004, at 19:49:01
They assess the risk. They take action to keep you safe. Which may be more phone calls or sessions but it may mean getting in touch with other people in your life who need to know.
Which is why, if you are like me, you don't always want to be transparent about how you are feeing. To burden those in my life with this knowledge is about the very worse thing that could happen, imo.
The best thing my therapist did, and has done again recently, was tell me he would be devastated if anything every happened to me and asked me to promise to call him first before I hurt myself. And he promised to answer that call with compassion and concern, not anger. He said he would tell me "in a damn straight way" not to kill myself. Which seems obvious but there is power in the way he said it, which made me believe that I would be able to hear him through the pain.
Posted by daisym on October 10, 2004, at 20:22:47
In reply to Are you ever afraid you present too well?, posted by Dinah on October 10, 2004, at 9:02:50
Clearly suicidal messages:
I had a dream last weekend that I asked my therapist to put me in the hospital and he said no, I was doing better than "I" thought, so I jumped off a bridge. There was more to the dream but when I told him about it, I also added in that it was about my mother, who never knew how bad I was feeling.
I also have cleaned out my computer files, my office and my dresser, paid all the bills, made menus and shopped for two weeks, etc. etc. I attributed this to channeling my anxiety in a productive way.
I am the QUEEN of cover it up. Last friday I gave a speech to 200 people and I have no idea what I said. I heard I did well. I dress up in heels and suit almost everyday and take myself off to work. I even go back to work most of the time after sessions.
I posted that last thursday I sort of told on myself about how badly I was doing. My therapist did connect the dots, he remembered the dream and just about everything else. I guess I really had been trying to tell him all week. But afterward I apologized for being "overly-dramatic." *sigh* Even when I finally do tell, I take it back. (NO, he didn't really let me.)
I think that is what makes us so dangerous to ourselves. We know how to make it all seem OK, until is isn't. And then we are done.
I hope you find people to listen to you and you feel better soon. I would miss you a lot.
Posted by Dinah on October 10, 2004, at 21:43:18
In reply to Are you ever afraid you present too well?, posted by Dinah on October 10, 2004, at 9:02:50
It's not like I'm being super-competent and dying inside. I had trouble working the TV remote today. And I have had trouble figuring out what day of the week it is, what I just did, or what I need to do. Time has lost all meaning. And simple tasks seem like mountains that I need to climb using the sun and stars to map the route, but with absolutely no training.
Not to even mention the nonstop migraines and just feeling lousy. Depression *hurts* physically which I don't really understand.
I guess I only mean that I can have a semi-coherent converstion with someone short term and I'm not sobbing. I may have no earthly idea three minutes later what I said, and I almost certainly won't remember to do whatever I said I'd do.
It really really bugs me that something as debilitating as this is so invisible. I'm no more capable of doing a day's work than I am flying to the moon. But you can't tell that by looking at me.
I haven't told my husband the extent of what's going on. He knows that I'm really distressed about my parents and grieving about Harry. He's got his own troubles right now, with his parents who aren't well.
My therapist does know. I don't know how he does it, but increasing the frequency of my visits in these times does seem to hold me together enough that I can scrape by without hospitalization. It helps to talk about the feelings. Unfortunately he hasn't had the extra time since this all started about a month or so ago. He's been out of town off and on, and now he's got meetings.
Half of me wants to go to the hospital. The unhealthy half I suppose. It's screaming that my poor brain and soul have taken too many jolts lately and I need time to heal just as if my body had been injured. If I had been hit by a real car, just started to get up when I got hit again, just started to get up when I got hit again, etc. it would be expected that I would be out of commission for a while. But since it's figurative cars I've been hit with, I'm expected to carry on as usual. And I just can't.
I know that hospitals are expensive though. And with effectively not working for close to a month now, I don't want to add even more to the burden.
At the very very least, I need time to heal. I need time without more cars barreling down on me. I need time without the pressure of having to do what I just can't do right now. And that's not going to happen here at home. Because nothing visible is broken and no limbs are missing. Maybe if I just got some time, my future wouldn't look so utterly hopeless and the options wouldn't seem limited to just one.
But going into the hospital wouldn't give me that. It would just add more problems to the ones I've already got and make things appear even more hopeless, if that's possible.
I think that perhaps my thinking is distorted. I start thinking of moving away and all these scenarios of my mother tracking me down and I know that's semihysterical thinking.
I wish my therapist had some time. I need to go over these thoughts.
Posted by Dinah on October 10, 2004, at 22:00:30
In reply to Re: Are you ever afraid you present too well? » Dinah, posted by daisym on October 10, 2004, at 20:22:47
Daisy, I'm sorry you're down in the muck and mire too. I really hope you feel better soon.
I know you face what I'm facing all the time, and have for some time. I can't tell you how much that impresses me.
I went yesterday to put new bedding on my father's new mattress and he had already soiled the sheet he was lying on. I did everything I should, I think. I treated it matter of factly to reduce his embarassment. But I have to dissociate so much to do all that, and it gives me headaches and makes time all choppy and meaningless.
I can't even imagine what it must be like to be a more hands on caregiver like you are, not even to mention the emotional demands of your job. I am so impressed.
I know you're in really good hands with your therapist. I wish mine would empty his hands soon so that he could help me a bit more. :)
Posted by daisym on October 10, 2004, at 22:53:50
In reply to Re: Are you ever afraid you present too well? » daisym, posted by Dinah on October 10, 2004, at 22:00:30
Thanks very much Dinah. It is nice to know that someone knows how hard it can be. I know I should say, "no, no big deal, really." But I can't tonight. I'm holding too much and we've tipped into the illness that flares this time of year. Right now it is totally controllable, he is working, and all that. But he is sleeping upright on the couch already (usually this happens at Thanksgiving) and taking prednisone. I had to go to a company function by myself last night, because he didn't feel great and he is in a lousy mood (drugs do that) so he announced he was staying home. And I had to endure the inevitable questions and sympathy from people who knows us.
Inside my head I'm screaming, "I can't do this another winter. I just can't." But practically speaking, I know I can and will. And really, who am I to feel sorry for myself? My husband is suffering and while he isn't doing it gracefully, he does push himself to get up, get going everyday.
So, I see my therapist tomorrow. And I'll probably wallow in self-pity for awhile and then he'll help me see what I have control over and what I don't. Until then, my plan is to bury myself in work.
As far as you taking a break, I think you should take a "sick day" from everything and stay in bed all day. Declare your bedroom an oasis. Shop for your favorite snacks and drinks. Take a hot bath (I know you like those) and just treat yourself with soft music and rest. I have a friend who rents out a hotel room (cheaper than the hospital) because she likes the deep tubs and when she is at home, all the "do me now" stuff is still around. She takes mini-vacations a couple of times a year. Your family will understand you are grieving. Give yourself the space and time to do it right. (This sounds good even to me, actually.)
Posted by saw on October 11, 2004, at 3:15:07
In reply to Re: Are you ever afraid you present too well?, posted by partlycloudy on October 10, 2004, at 15:18:44
I can relate to this. My husband, and possibly my mother, can quickly pick up when something is amiss. Otherwise I am successfully able to hide my depression, anxiety and panic from most. My biggest frustration is when people (in my experience a pharmacist) said to my "but you don't LOOK depressed". What am I supposed to LOOK like? My body does definately aid the deception. By way of headaches, sore nose, frequent toilet trips and so on and on and on .
I come across as forthright and confident and knowing what I want, just very stressed in therapy. I have not yet been able to drop my guard long enough to actually get any help out of therapy. Part of the reason that I am not receiving any right now.Sabrina
Posted by fallsfall on October 11, 2004, at 16:55:06
In reply to Re: Are you ever afraid you present too well? » Dinah, posted by daisym on October 10, 2004, at 22:53:50
Dinah,
I love Daisy's idea of going to a hotel. Just get one with internet access, OK?
When do you see your therapist next? I would think you could call him and tell him you need to see him. He would find a way, I think. You certainly have enough going on right now...
(((((Dinah)))))
Posted by JenStar on October 15, 2004, at 0:44:26
In reply to Hmmm... Maybe I only *appear* to present well, posted by Dinah on October 10, 2004, at 21:43:18
hi Dinah,
I was away for a while, but I'm back now and reading to catch up. I'm so sorry to read that you're in such distress! Very, very sorry. I hope things improve for you. It sounds like there is quite a bit of stress going on with your parents, and Harry, and everything. I'm sorry to hear that you feel so depressed and have expressed suicidal thoughts. I know I can't do anything to help, but I'm sending you a virtual hug and well wishes and hoping that things clear up. Take care of yourself! You are a neat, cool person. :)JenStar
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