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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on July 7, 2006, at 14:16:28
I've always thought of self esteem as something that could really be gained only through mastery, and acknowledgement of that mastery.
For example, I've always felt like the irresponsible child in my marriage, because I'm more than a little absent minded. But last vacation, I discovered that I have inherited my mother's uncanny sense of direction. And knowing that I was needed, and worthwhile, changed my view of myself just a bit. Enough to make a difference.
But I've also always thought that people should feel valuable and worthwhile separate from accomplishment. Just by virtue of being a member of the human family. Or animal family, since I extend that to nonhumans too.
I'm not quite sure how to reconcile the two ideas.
Posted by curtm on July 7, 2006, at 14:50:31
In reply to Is self esteem different than self worth?, posted by Dinah on July 7, 2006, at 14:16:28
By definition, they are the same.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-esteem
By perspective,...who knows.
Posted by Dinah on July 7, 2006, at 16:25:50
In reply to Re: Is self esteem different than self worth? » Dinah, posted by curtm on July 7, 2006, at 14:50:31
I think the forces I'm trying to describe are what Branden refers to as self-efficacy and self-respect.
http://www.ericdigests.org/pre-9219/self.htm
My notions of self esteem have been heavily influenced by the Montessori system. Kids are encouraged to have fun by cleaning and being responsible for their playthings, and are praised specifically for tasks or effort, not globally. And praise is given in such a way that they are encouraged to be proud of themselves, not rely on someone else being proud of them. I guess that would be self-efficacy.
Then they cover the self respect angle by teaching respect for others. Teaching the kids that they have to treat each other respectfully because everyone has a right to respect indirectly teaches them that they too have a right to respect.
Which just about exhausts my knowledge of the topic. :)
Posted by Phillipa on July 7, 2006, at 23:19:40
In reply to Re: Is self esteem different than self worth? » curtm, posted by Dinah on July 7, 2006, at 16:25:50
Dinah my opinion you said it very well. Love Phillipa ps and I won't down my self-esteem, self-worth by saying to my self who am I to say these things.
Posted by ClearSkies on July 11, 2006, at 9:42:10
In reply to Re: Is self esteem different than self worth? » curtm, posted by Dinah on July 7, 2006, at 16:25:50
I've been thinking about the difference between self esteem and self worth. To me, self esteem is about being happy with the way we are, look, and act, not being happy with the results of our tasks and accomplishments. Me liking my fingernails has nothing to do with my own homing-pigeon instincts (honestly, GG! I know where I'm going!). I can recognize that the first is something I'm happy about myself, and the second I consider a useful skill that I actively develop that makes me happy.
That's me, though.
ClearSkies
Posted by Dinah on July 11, 2006, at 11:41:22
In reply to Re: Is self esteem different than self worth? » Dinah, posted by ClearSkies on July 11, 2006, at 9:42:10
I think it's a difficult concept for me.
Posted by curtm on July 11, 2006, at 12:34:51
In reply to Re: Is self esteem different than self worth? » ClearSkies, posted by Dinah on July 11, 2006, at 11:41:22
The word I associate most with self esteem personally is "honor." Everything in your life you do must be done in an honorable way. You can't take back or change anythng. Before you act, speak or even think, think of honor. This is a textbook definition, but it is so much more. Honor is something that you will have every time you act in an honorable way. Honor is the best foundation for self esteem.
Imagine this thought (it actually scares me)...
If you were to die today, what remains in, say your desk or even your pocket would you have left and would they be tarnishing to your honor? (No, meds aren't)**************
hon·or n.
High respect, as that shown for special merit; esteem: the honor shown to a Nobel laureate.
Good name; reputation.
A source or cause of credit: was an honor to the profession.
Glory or recognition; distinction.
A mark, token, or gesture of respect or distinction: the place of honor at the table.
A military decoration.
A title conferred for achievement.
High rank.
The dignity accorded to position: awed by the honor of his office.
Great privilege: I have the honor to present the governor.
Honor Used with His, Her, or Your as a title and form of address for certain officials, such as judges and mayors: Her Honor the Mayor.Principled uprightness of character; personal integrity.
A code of integrity, dignity, and pride, chiefly among men, that was maintained in some societies, as in feudal Europe, by force of arms.
A woman's chastity or reputation for chastity.
honors Social courtesies offered to guests: did the honors at tea.
honors
Special recognition for unusual academic achievement: graduated with honors.
A program of individual advanced study for exceptional students: planned to take honors in history.tr.v. hon·ored, hon·or·ing, hon·ors
To hold in respect; esteem.
To show respect for.
To bow to (another dancer) in square dancing: Honor your partner.
To confer distinction on: He has honored us with his presence.
To accept or pay as valid: honor a check; a store that honors all credit cards.*************
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 12, 2006, at 19:20:26
In reply to Re: Is self esteem different than self worth?, posted by curtm on July 11, 2006, at 12:34:51
> The word I associate most with self esteem personally is "honor." Everything in your life you do must be done in an honorable way. You can't take back or change anythng. Before you act, speak or even think, think of honor.
>
> Imagine this thought (it actually scares me)...
> If you were to die today, what remains in, say your desk or even your pocket would you have left and would they be tarnishing to your honor?And how about what would remain here?
Bob
Posted by Deneb on July 12, 2006, at 19:33:32
In reply to Re: honor, posted by Dr. Bob on July 12, 2006, at 19:20:26
> And how about what would remain here?
>
> BobDr. Bob, are you saying you would judge us by what we post here? Dr. Bob, there are things I regret posting, but there's nothing I can do about them now. I like to see all sides of a person, not just the honorable deeds.
Deneb*
Posted by Dinah on July 12, 2006, at 20:12:02
In reply to Re: Is self esteem different than self worth?, posted by curtm on July 11, 2006, at 12:34:51
I've always centered my life around honor, to the extent I'm able. But I've often felt anachronistic for doing so. It's good to see someone else give it its due.
I try to live my life in such a way that seeing what I do splashed across the front page of the newspaper will bring me no shame. I miss the mark sometimes. But I pick myself up and try again.
Posted by curtm on July 12, 2006, at 22:33:36
In reply to Re: honor, posted by Dr. Bob on July 12, 2006, at 19:20:26
Posted by curtm on July 12, 2006, at 22:37:30
In reply to Re: honor » Dr. Bob, posted by Deneb on July 12, 2006, at 19:33:32
there really is no connection between the "babble-me" and the "real-me" yet, but even that is irrelevant because honor is really defined by me, and I want to be honorable, know or unknown. Honor is what an individual makes of it. ...and therein lies esteem. IMO
Posted by curtm on July 12, 2006, at 22:40:42
In reply to ...although » Deneb, posted by curtm on July 12, 2006, at 22:37:30
Posted by Racer on July 12, 2006, at 23:13:30
In reply to Re: Is self esteem different than self worth?, posted by curtm on July 11, 2006, at 12:34:51
>
> Imagine this thought (it actually scares me)...
> If you were to die today, what remains in, say your desk or even your pocket would you have left and would they be tarnishing to your honor? (No, meds aren't)
>You know, this and what Dinah posted about living life so that if what you did was splashed across the headlines you wouldn't be ashamed, brought something up for me. I would be ashamed of much of what I've experienced. I try very hard to be kind to others, and to be someone I would want to know, but there are still many things I would hide over.
I'd want to hide how sloppy I am, how lazy, howgenerally pathetic I am. I'd hate for people who know me to find out that I'm taking classes at a jr college, for instance. Because I'm ashamed that I don't have a degree, because I'm ashamed of what it says about my life that I don't, etc. I'm ashamed that I've been involuntarily hospitalized. I'd hate for anyone to know about that. I'm even ashamed that I'm only thin sometimes because I'm anorexic. Don't get me wrong, when I'm thin, I'm very proud of being thin, but I'm still ashamed that I'm anorexic. I should be thin *and* not anorexic.
But I do try to live with honor. I may not call it that, because I tend to focus on other people more, how I treat them, so I call it kindness.
It's a good concept, and thank you for bringing it in.
Posted by Phillipa on July 12, 2006, at 23:25:58
In reply to Re: Is self esteem different than self worth? » curtm, posted by Racer on July 12, 2006, at 23:13:30
Good point. I try to help others before myself which is not always good. I expend my energy on others. That's why I was and for my self-esteem to get higher I need to work again. And Racer I went to a junior college too and am a diploma Nurse. I wanted bedside nursing not a bunch of paperwork. So I honor the privilege of being able to work in a form of nursing. Money isn't important. Love Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on July 13, 2006, at 0:09:07
In reply to Re: Is self esteem different than self worth? » curtm, posted by Racer on July 12, 2006, at 23:13:30
But none of those are things that would bring shame. You're going to school and getting a degree. That brings no shame. You have an illness and have had your share of troubles. That doesn't tarnish your honor.
You do your best to be kind to others. That is honorable indeed.
I won't comment on the laziness, because I intellectually know that I'm not lazy, but I struggle with shame over my behavior that might be seen as lazy nonetheless. :(
Would you consider any of those things shameful in others? Would you judge them negatively for it?
I hate myself sometimes for allowing myself to gain weight. Yet someone in my life is also overweight, and when I see it I just am sorry because I know that when he gains weight it's because he's unhappy, and I'm sorry he's unhappy.
Maybe there should be a rule that says we should judge ourselves by the same measure that we judge others.
Wait. That sounds familiar. It leads to a whole new reading of that familiar saying doesn't it?
Posted by Declan on July 13, 2006, at 19:59:27
In reply to Re: Is self esteem different than self worth? » curtm, posted by Dinah on July 12, 2006, at 20:12:02
Honour to me is like decency. I'm not sure that I agree with the idea that honour is that which will mean no public shame. To me it's, I dunno, something about a balance of the virtues?? To feel you have lived your life honourably doesn't have much to do with public acclaim or even acceptance, but I'm not sure what it does have to do with. When Oscar Wilde was being transferred from one jail to another, his books having just been sold at auction, Robert Ross stood at the train station, took off his hat, and bowed his head to show, I suppose, respect, sorrow, and independance from group thought. Maybe something like that?
Declan
Posted by Dinah on July 13, 2006, at 21:21:07
In reply to Honour, posted by Declan on July 13, 2006, at 19:59:27
Perhaps I didn't make clear that when I said "would bring me no shame" I meant would not be shameful in my own eyes.
I was raised hearing this poem so often, or at least the first few lines of it, that I am torn between fondness and the dislike that comes from overfamiliarity. :)
"You have to live with yourself and so,
You must be fit for yourself to know."
Posted by Declan on July 13, 2006, at 22:16:24
In reply to Re: Honour » Declan, posted by Dinah on July 13, 2006, at 21:21:07
Hello Dinah
With pretty thin ego boundaries the trick is to be aware of the judgement of others but not be overwhelmed by it. We do the same as we grow up. My whole thingo was really an involuntary need to merge that became a nuisance, coming from an external reality insufficiently digested once inside me.
Ego boundaries open up when we fall in love. Perhaps that's what I needed to do, and couldn't.
Declan
Posted by Phillipa on July 13, 2006, at 22:21:58
In reply to Self and Others » Dinah, posted by Declan on July 13, 2006, at 22:16:24
Declan I'm sorry. But a profound statement. Love Phillipa
Posted by curtm on July 14, 2006, at 8:38:59
In reply to Honour, posted by Declan on July 13, 2006, at 19:59:27
Yes, decency. I shocked myself to think one day that if I passed away in a car accident and I had paraphenalia on me/in my car, how would that look to my family when they got the report? Or maybe the police blotter?
This is the end of the thread.
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