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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 26. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Nocturnal1 on May 19, 2011, at 12:51:10
Having struggled with less than average quality sleep for ~ 10 years, amidst everything I have tried so far, vitamin E seems to be a magic bullet. there isn't alot about E and sleep, but it realy turned the trick. I originally bought it because of its claims to help stave off ovarian cysts, which I struggle with.
Now, I took E as a supplement only for one day, and I my sleep was so sound and restful, I had no early morning awakening to pee(then not fall back asleep, like my typical pattern), and slept through @6.5-7hours! I got out of bed feeling incredibly rested and well, no half-rested feeling like typical of my 5-hour night sleeps. Vitamin E(200IU)is the only really different supplement I added to my nightly cocktail of vitamins. the others do nothing for sleep quality(prior nights) but I took them with the E: half a B-complex stress tablet by Nature Made, 500mg ExRelease vitC, vit D 1000 IU, vitB12 500ucg, one concentrated fish oil 1760mg(natures finest brand from walgreens, buy them 2 for 1 sale). now the fish oil historically will help me with daily depressive feelings, and will help me sleep more than 2-3 hours at night(awakening then)and get me to the 5 hour mark. that's without any other supplements at dinner time. I found fish oil doesnt work as well at bedtime for me, but better taken earlier at dinner.
so, I also take that entire vitamin cocktail at breakfast or lunch, plus half a multi vitamin.
I just can't tell you how good I feel today, and I hope it's the vit E and it won't wear off after today. I am doing it again today. I will report back on these findings after a bit of time to see my quality and length of sleep has been maintained. I tell you no prescription Rx has made me feel this well! I could exercise and run up stairs today with no lethargy! if it will only last.
Posted by Hombre on May 19, 2011, at 23:13:24
In reply to just discovered vitamin E for sleep!, posted by Nocturnal1 on May 19, 2011, at 12:51:10
Nice find.
I am currently out of almost all vitamins and feel it immensely. I am more susceptible to stress, and some of my vices are hurting me more because I am not getting C and magnesium.
Posted by Lao Tzu on May 20, 2011, at 9:14:08
In reply to just discovered vitamin E for sleep!, posted by Nocturnal1 on May 19, 2011, at 12:51:10
This is what I've been trying to tell people for a long time. Vitamin E 400IU helps me with sleep as well when taken with other vitamins such as calcium and magnesium, melatonin, selenium, vitamin B1. Anitoxidants are very important for depressed people.
Lao
Posted by Hombre on May 20, 2011, at 10:35:26
In reply to Re: just discovered vitamin E for sleep!, posted by Lao Tzu on May 20, 2011, at 9:14:08
What is the best form of vitamin E to take?
Posted by sigismund on May 20, 2011, at 14:40:23
In reply to Re: just discovered vitamin E for sleep!, posted by Hombre on May 20, 2011, at 10:35:26
Mixed tocopherols, I guess. Lots of gamma.
Posted by torridcalm on May 20, 2011, at 17:10:18
In reply to Re: just discovered vitamin E for sleep!, posted by sigismund on May 20, 2011, at 14:40:23
is there any danger from it being fat soluable? I'd like to try it.
Posted by nocturnal1 on May 20, 2011, at 22:29:20
In reply to Re: just discovered vitamin E for sleep!, posted by Lao Tzu on May 20, 2011, at 9:14:08
> This is what I've been trying to tell people for a long time. Vitamin E 400IU helps me with sleep as well when taken with other vitamins such as calcium and magnesium, melatonin, selenium, vitamin B1. Anitoxidants are very important for depressed people.
>
>
> LaoI wish I knew that ages ago, as I would have payed more attention to Vit E for depression benefits. its just not well-marketed for that reason.
Posted by nocturnal1 on May 20, 2011, at 22:37:29
In reply to Re: just discovered vitamin E for sleep!, posted by torridcalm on May 20, 2011, at 17:10:18
> is there any danger from it being fat soluable? I'd like to try it.
>
>yes, vit E is fat soluble. so have to be careful on the amount you take. I take 200IU at breakfast and again at dinner. E has gotten good and bad hype through the years and is why I stopped taking supplemental E. But now, I wanted to do something that claims to help ovarian cysts, but found out it really made me feel a whole lot better instead, and got a good night's sleep for a change. Maybe when I used to take it over ten years ago, I didnt' attribute better sleep to the antioxidants!
Posted by Lao Tzu on May 22, 2011, at 16:42:33
In reply to Re: just discovered vitamin E for sleep!, posted by nocturnal1 on May 20, 2011, at 22:37:29
I know it's fat-soluble, but I haven't had any problems taking 600IU per day, 200 in the morning and 400 at bedtime. My heart's fine, my blood pressure's fine, and I've been taking this dosage for years now. Perhaps, you'd have to pay attention to dosage if you are on anticoagulants for heart disease, but that's a matter to bring up with your doctor if you have heart disease. I also noticed that my lower extremities don't get cold in the winter, but whether that's due to the vitamin E improving circulation, I can't say for sure. It is said that vitamin E can help men with erections caused by circulation problems, and the pharmaceutical industry won't tell you that. They'd rather sell you Viagra. haha!
Lao
Posted by Lao Tzu on May 22, 2011, at 16:46:48
In reply to Re: just discovered vitamin E for sleep!, posted by Hombre on May 20, 2011, at 10:35:26
I don't know the best vitamin E to take, really. Natural d-alpha tocopherol is supposed to be preferred over synthetic, but that might be b.s. Some sources say mixed tocopherols are more therapeutic than d-alpha alone. I'd say if you can tolerate the mixed tocopherols, go with that, but I'm not an expert in vitamins. A lot of it is just marketing and less real truth about vitamins.
Lao
Posted by larryhoover on May 29, 2011, at 23:02:32
In reply to Re: just discovered vitamin E for sleep!, posted by Lao Tzu on May 22, 2011, at 16:46:48
> I don't know the best vitamin E to take, really. Natural d-alpha tocopherol is supposed to be preferred over synthetic, but that might be b.s. Some sources say mixed tocopherols are more therapeutic than d-alpha alone. I'd say if you can tolerate the mixed tocopherols, go with that, but I'm not an expert in vitamins. A lot of it is just marketing and less real truth about vitamins.
>
>
> LaoThere is a lot more to vitamin E than just d-alpha tocopherol. When the vitamins were being identified, scientists really didn't have much of an idea what was what. For example, vitamin B was split into a number of different nutrients, and one of those, B-12, isn't a B-vitamin at all. Same goes for vitamin E. Depending on how a particular scientist defines the term, there are at least 16 different chemical structures that fall under the umbrella term vitamin E.
Trust me on this, more poor science has been based on the false assumption that d,l-alpha tocopherol (synthetic vitamin E) is a stand-in for the multiple and diverse substances that should have been included in the experiment, than perhaps with any nutrient.
You should look for a product that contains mixed tocopherols and mixed tocotrienols, at the very least. And I can assure you that if you use such a product, it will not contain any l-enantiomers, because these mixed products all have natural sources. Now Foods has a nice product called Gamma E Complex, but there are many others out there.
The fact that vitamin E is fat soluble is of no consequence, by the way. It's biological purpose is to serve as a fat-soluble antioxidant. Vitamin C serves an identical purpose in the water-soluble body compartment. In fact, vitamin E helps to recycle vitamin C, because they have a cross-over link.
Lar
Posted by nocturnal1 on May 30, 2011, at 22:35:49
In reply to Re: just discovered vitamin E for sleep!, posted by larryhoover on May 29, 2011, at 23:02:32
Well, here it is, more than a week later and my great joy for vit E and sleep has worn out! It is not the magic pill I thought it was the first night, as I did not reap the magic sleep benefits from it the nights to follow. back to my old habits. :( however, I still take the vit E as I believe it has helped relieve my ovarian cyst/pain along with dietary changes(a great thing). So as with many otc supplements or drugs, my system builds a tolerance to them for sleep quickly and end up not working in the way it ideally should. I have had some success with ER Niacin 500mg at night, and even better 500mg in the afternoon too and dinner time. Its great for anxiety too. Its just that I read that its very bad for the liver long term. ** sigh**... so what I have done quite frequently is when I go to sleep(w/out any meds or niacin) I get my 5.5hours and awaken. I will take part of a choline/inositol supplement, and will get another hour or two of sleep(providing I am not anxious over something). Expect vivid dreaming as one of those vitamins encourage REM sleep. So its not the greatest way to get the sleep in, but its the best I can do, without going on RX, and still I wake early with that junk too and have a hangover!
Posted by Lao Tzu on May 31, 2011, at 11:07:49
In reply to Re: just discovered vitamin E for sleep!, posted by nocturnal1 on May 30, 2011, at 22:35:49
You need more than just vitamin E for good sleep architecture. The following is a vitamin cocktail I use for sleep and it works well.
400IU vitamin E; 100mcg selenium; 100mg B1; 50mg B2; 1mg melatonin; 500mg magesium; 500mg calcium
This seems to work well for me. You can't depend on just one vitamin for sleep, but rather, a cocktail which you have to take every night to get better sleep. Yes, vitamin E is very important, but so are the others equally. Try it if you like, and let me know how it turns out for you.
Lao
Posted by Lao Tzu on May 31, 2011, at 11:11:01
In reply to Re: just discovered vitamin E for sleep!, posted by nocturnal1 on May 30, 2011, at 22:35:49
Niacin actually screwed up my sleep. I couldn't fall asleep faster and I even woke up earlier while I was taking it. I gave it up. Not to say that it doesn't help certain conditions. It's great for the cardiovascular system, but I felt I could do without it.
Lao
Posted by nocturnal1 on May 31, 2011, at 21:56:21
In reply to Re: just discovered vitamin E)))nocturnal, posted by Lao Tzu on May 31, 2011, at 11:07:49
> You need more than just vitamin E for good sleep architecture. The following is a vitamin cocktail I use for sleep and it works well.
>
> 400IU vitamin E; 100mcg selenium; 100mg B1; 50mg B2; 1mg melatonin; 500mg magesium; 500mg calcium
>
> This seems to work well for me. You can't depend on just one vitamin for sleep, but rather, a cocktail which you have to take every night to get better sleep. Yes, vitamin E is very important, but so are the others equally. Try it if you like, and let me know how it turns out for you.
>
> Laoyes, I do take a variety of supplements in addition to E in the evening. I think I posted them in the original message. however, the melatonin has the opposite effect on me, it keeps me awake all night! LOL. I haven't heard of Selenium as a sleep aid. I know CA/Mg are important for sleep. B1, B2, aren't they better with the whole complex of B's?
Posted by nocturnal1 on May 31, 2011, at 22:02:23
In reply to Re: just discovered vitamin E for sleep!, posted by Lao Tzu on May 31, 2011, at 11:11:01
> Niacin actually screwed up my sleep. I couldn't fall asleep faster and I even woke up earlier while I was taking it. I gave it up. Not to say that it doesn't help certain conditions. It's great for the cardiovascular system, but I felt I could do without it.
>
>
> Laoyes, niacin is strange. Some people have great results with it, but I know they are taking large doses. that would concern me, with its known hazards for the liver. I found it really was great for a few days and then I started to build up a tolerance for the amount I was taking, and I guess I'd have to keep upping the dose. It was the best anti-depressant I found(Rx or OTC supplements), and even great anti-anxiety, but the tolerance thing came along after ~3 days with me! so I only use it occasionally now.
Posted by larryhoover on May 31, 2011, at 22:17:18
In reply to Re: just discovered vitamin E)))nocturnal, posted by nocturnal1 on May 31, 2011, at 21:56:21
> however, the melatonin has the opposite effect on me, it keeps me awake all night!
I think the most likely explanation for that is that you took too much. The effective dose is different for everyone, because we differ on how efficiently we absorb it from the gut, and also how effectively it crosses the blood/brain barrier. I've talked to a lot of people, and the effective doses I've heard range from 0.15 mg to 10 mg, over 60 times as much!
Unlike what you'd expect, melatonin has an inverted U dose/response curve. The effect ramps up quickly, plateaus, and then falls off to zero, as you increase the dose. If you take too much, it actually disables the melatonin receptor, and your natural melatonin doesn't work at all, either. The trick is finding out where your own plateau is, and that is your effective dose. I use a liquid melatonin preparation, as it makes fractional dosing a breeze.
It soulds like you're very sensitive to oral melatonin, so I'd suggest you start at 0.15 mg, 20 minutes before bedtime. If that didn't do the trick, try 0.30 the next night, and so on, increasing by the same amount each night, until you find the dose that works for you. Walmart sells 0.30 mg tablets, and they're a cinch to split.
Lar
Posted by larryhoover on May 31, 2011, at 22:23:13
In reply to Re: just discovered vitamin E for sleep!, posted by nocturnal1 on May 31, 2011, at 22:02:23
> yes, niacin is strange. Some people have great results with it, but I know they are taking large doses. that would concern me, with its known hazards for the liver. I found it really was great for a few days and then I started to build up a tolerance for the amount I was taking, and I guess I'd have to keep upping the dose. It was the best anti-depressant I found(Rx or OTC supplements), and even great anti-anxiety, but the tolerance thing came along after ~3 days with me! so I only use it occasionally now.
Niacin comes in two forms: niacin/nicotinic acid is activating, whereas niacinamide/nicotinamide is calming. You probably convert enough niacin to niacinamide to feel the calming effect (niacinamide directly activates the benzodiazepine receptor), but you can simply take niacinamide and avoid the whole liver stress thing altogether. Niacinamide won't help with regulating blood fats, though.
Niacinamide also helps moderate allergic response to e.g. pollen, and may reduce a tendency to sunburn.
Lar
Posted by Lao Tzu on June 1, 2011, at 12:01:12
In reply to Re: just discovered vitamin E)))nocturnal » nocturnal1, posted by larryhoover on May 31, 2011, at 22:17:18
Yes, since melatonin is a hormone, I think, you don't need high doses. I only use 1mg at bedtime, but you could actually get by with half that if you use the other vitamins along with it. When they market melatonin, people think that the higher dosages should be better, but they aren't and you do develop tolerance to it over time. I think it's more than just taking melatonin for sleep. You need the other vitamins as well. I know you may think selenium a weird vitamin to take for sleep, but it does help in conjunction with the other supplements I mentioned, but dose is important. 50mcg selenium doesn't help much with sleep, but higher dosages do, at least 100mcg at bedtime and maybe more if you can tolerate it and it doesn't bother your stomach. As far as the B's, yes, you can take a B-complex during the day, but B1 and B2 have a calming effect at bedtime and can be taken separately before you sleep. Perhaps sufficient B6 and B12 should be taken during the day. That's what works for me.
Lao
Posted by nocturnal1 on June 2, 2011, at 8:53:26
In reply to Re: just discovered vitamin E for sleep! » nocturnal1, posted by larryhoover on May 31, 2011, at 22:23:13
> > yes, niacin is strange. Some people have great results with it, but I know they are taking large doses. that would concern me, with its known hazards for the liver. I found it really was great for a few days and then I started to build up a tolerance for the amount I was taking, and I guess I'd have to keep upping the dose. It was the best anti-depressant I found(Rx or OTC supplements), and even great anti-anxiety, but the tolerance thing came along after ~3 days with me! so I only use it occasionally now.
>
> Niacin comes in two forms: niacin/nicotinic acid is activating, whereas niacinamide/nicotinamide is calming. You probably convert enough niacin to niacinamide to feel the calming effect (niacinamide directly activates the benzodiazepine receptor), but you can simply take niacinamide and avoid the whole liver stress thing altogether. Niacinamide won't help with regulating blood fats, though.
>
> Niacinamide also helps moderate allergic response to e.g. pollen, and may reduce a tendency to sunburn.
>
> Larthat is interesting to know. I thought I read on the net in various places that the niacin form was more effective for stress/anxiety, but at the price of the liver. I will try out the -amide form to see. Fortunately, I don't have problems with blood fats or cholesterol levels so I don't have to take it for those reasons.
Posted by nocturnal1 on June 2, 2011, at 9:03:45
In reply to Re: just discovered vitamin E)))nocturnal » nocturnal1, posted by larryhoover on May 31, 2011, at 22:17:18
> > however, the melatonin has the opposite effect on me, it keeps me awake all night!
>
> I think the most likely explanation for that is that you took too much. The effective dose is different for everyone, because we differ on how efficiently we absorb it from the gut, and also how effectively it crosses the blood/brain barrier. I've talked to a lot of people, and the effective doses I've heard range from 0.15 mg to 10 mg, over 60 times as much!
>
> Unlike what you'd expect, melatonin has an inverted U dose/response curve. The effect ramps up quickly, plateaus, and then falls off to zero, as you increase the dose. If you take too much, it actually disables the melatonin receptor, and your natural melatonin doesn't work at all, either. The trick is finding out where your own plateau is, and that is your effective dose. I use a liquid melatonin preparation, as it makes fractional dosing a breeze.
>
> It soulds like you're very sensitive to oral melatonin, so I'd suggest you start at 0.15 mg, 20 minutes before bedtime. If that didn't do the trick, try 0.30 the next night, and so on, increasing by the same amount each night, until you find the dose that works for you. Walmart sells 0.30 mg tablets, and they're a cinch to split.
>
> LarInteresting to know that about Melatonin. I knew that it is part of the sleep-wake cycle, and has as much to do with wakening as falling asleep. I usually took between 1-2mgs either regular or ER form. It would keep me AWAKE! Could not fall off at all into unconscious sleep! awful. I did not think of taking way less, nor did the Dr ever suspect that. she just said to drop it!
I usually fall asleep by myself(no meds or supplements) with out a problem. however, I will awaken 4-5 hours later and have trouble going back to sleep. most things I take at bedtime(Rx, OTC, or vitamins)will still have me wakening after 5 hours with the best of them. so why bother taking them? I take part of a choline/inositol pill when I wake and then I usually get a bit more sleep in with vivid dreams, and no hangover for the day. its not the best, but I get a few more moments of REM sleep at least and the day is better than without that extra bit. are you a researcher or MD?
Posted by larryhoover on June 2, 2011, at 11:22:44
In reply to Re: just discovered vitamin E)))nocturnal, posted by nocturnal1 on June 2, 2011, at 9:03:45
> I usually took between 1-2mgs either regular or ER form. It would keep me AWAKE! Could not fall off at all into unconscious sleep! awful. I did not think of taking way less, nor did the Dr ever suspect that. she just said to drop it!
> I usually fall asleep by myself(no meds or supplements) with out a problem. however, I will awaken 4-5 hours later and have trouble going back to sleep. most things I take at bedtime(Rx, OTC, or vitamins)will still have me wakening after 5 hours with the best of them. so why bother taking them? I take part of a choline/inositol pill when I wake and then I usually get a bit more sleep in with vivid dreams, and no hangover for the day. its not the best, but I get a few more moments of REM sleep at least and the day is better than without that extra bit.It's possible that you're not going to benefit from melatonin, if it's not part of your disordered sleep pattern. The neat thing is, if it works, it tends to keep working. I've used it for years, and restorative sleep is the central core of my sense of well-being.
> are you a researcher or MD?
I'm a scientist. I have a background in chemistry and biochemistry. In some limited fields, I probably know more than the typical doctor. I specialized in environmental toxicology. I read a lot of medical literature, which at least gives me familiarity with the arcane language of medicine, and the way the science is progressing.
Lar
Posted by Lao Tzu on June 30, 2011, at 15:34:05
In reply to Re: just discovered vitamin E)))nocturnal » nocturnal1, posted by larryhoover on June 2, 2011, at 11:22:44
Getting enough good sleep is complex. Try and cut down on the caffeine. Some people are especially sensitive to it. Cut down on alcoholic beverages. I say that certain vitamins are absolutely essential for good sleep. I have schizophrenia and the worst thing about it was my sleep. I used to have terrible insomnia. Using an antipsychotic medication helped a lot to calm the dopamine. But you also have to balance your brain biochemistry with nutrients. Medicine alone didn't work for me. Yes, melatonin can help, but usually that isn't the sole answer. Other nutrients are needed in sufficient quantities. Vitamin E 400IU is one of them. Others are vitamins B1, B2, B6, selenium, magnesium and calcium in sufficient amounts. You have to experiment with the last two to find the right dosage that helps you with sleep. Zinc supplements kept me awake at night. Niacin didn't help much, in fact, it may have caused restless sleep. So there are certain vitamins that are beneficial to sleep (the ones I mentioned) and others that can interfere with it. So far, this is the regimen I use at night for sleep, and I swear it works.
400IU vitamin E
100mcg of selenium-yeast
100mg of B1
50mg of B2
1mg of melatonin
500mg of magnesium
500mg of calciumIt might be a good idea to get some B6 during the day as well, but be careful not to take too much B6 before bed as it could potentially interfere with sleep. I don't have this problem with B1 and B2 as long as the dosage is not too high.
Lao
Posted by Nocturnal1 on July 6, 2011, at 12:07:27
In reply to Re: just discovered vitamin E--get better sleep, posted by Lao Tzu on June 30, 2011, at 15:34:05
> Getting enough good sleep is complex. Try and cut down on the caffeine. Some people are especially sensitive to it. Cut down on alcoholic beverages. I say that certain vitamins are absolutely essential for good sleep. I have schizophrenia and the worst thing about it was my sleep. I used to have terrible insomnia. Using an antipsychotic medication helped a lot to calm the dopamine. But you also have to balance your brain biochemistry with nutrients. Medicine alone didn't work for me. Yes, melatonin can help, but usually that isn't the sole answer. Other nutrients are needed in sufficient quantities. Vitamin E 400IU is one of them. Others are vitamins B1, B2, B6, selenium, magnesium and calcium in sufficient amounts. You have to experiment with the last two to find the right dosage that helps you with sleep. Zinc supplements kept me awake at night. Niacin didn't help much, in fact, it may have caused restless sleep. So there are certain vitamins that are beneficial to sleep (the ones I mentioned) and others that can interfere with it. So far, this is the regimen I use at night for sleep, and I swear it works.
>
> 400IU vitamin E
> 100mcg of selenium-yeast
> 100mg of B1
> 50mg of B2
> 1mg of melatonin
> 500mg of magnesium
> 500mg of calcium
>
> It might be a good idea to get some B6 during the day as well, but be careful not to take too much B6 before bed as it could potentially interfere with sleep. I don't have this problem with B1 and B2 as long as the dosage is not too high.
>
> Laoits a work in progress. vit b6 is a wonder pill for a few nights, but then seems to backfire and upset the liver. I like E for ovarian health! it seems to have reached a tolerance with my sleep though. Ca/Mg are great for sleep promoting.
I have seen clinically that the vitamins do work over time. I remember blood tests for vit D and b12 a couple of years ago, and while I had been taking them for ~3 months as higher doses(4000IU for D, and ~1000ug for b12)my blood levels were low. but after another year went by and repeated the blood work, taking the same level of those supplements, they were 2x as high in my blood and at the recommended levels. so the vitamins will work, just have to have time and stay with them. these don't parlay in particular to a good nights sleep, though they don't hurt it, either. I still like fish oil best of all for avoiding early awakenings, and it is more of an antidepressant than anything else for me. I found that melatonin keeps me up all night, so its a foul ball for me! I have found that going to bed earlier does parlay into 1-1.5 more hours of sleep however! my body is supposed to be making melatonin @ 9pm and I found if I can go to bed that early, I get up the same time as if I went to bed at 11p or later!
Posted by Kimmydawn on October 1, 2015, at 12:21:13
In reply to just discovered vitamin E for sleep!, posted by Nocturnal1 on May 19, 2011, at 12:51:10
I just found this because I was searching for a link between Vitamin E and sleep for the same reason. I added vitamin E to my usual cocktail of B12, D3, etc. and my Fitbit showed 5.5 hours of sleep with ZERO interruptions, where an average night averages 20-30 interruptions. The only thing I did differently yesterday was take an E vitamin for a totally unrelated issue. Did it continue to help you after you posted this? I realize it's been a while.
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