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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Christ_empowered on October 26, 2010, at 17:39:59
OK, so I've just stocked up on 6-7+ months worth of supplements from an online discount vitamin shop. My goals are to stabilize mood, reduce anxiety/agitation, improve sleep, and increase overall antioxidant levels. I'm thinking that after 6-8 weeks of my supplement program, I might be able to go from 30mgs/day Abilify to 15mgs/day Abilify--still within the normal range for bipolar or schizophrenia, just no longer at the top of the dosage range.
What do you all think? I'm taking: niacinamide, taurine, green tea extract, gingko biloba, vitamin E+selenium (combo capsules), alpha lipoic acid, vitamin C, and a very basic multi.
Thanks in advance for you help.
Posted by morgan miller on October 26, 2010, at 23:05:52
In reply to maximize supplements, lower meds?, posted by Christ_empowered on October 26, 2010, at 17:39:59
It all looks pretty good, just be careful with the taurine.
I would also add resveratrol and maybe lithium orotate(vitamin research products is best) to the mix.
Did you go ahead and start taking fish oil? I know you were talking about it before.
Other things to think about:
-Organic Extra Virgin Coconut oil: tablespoon a day
-Flax or Chia Seed
-Bacopa Monniera
-Gotu Kola
-Phosphatidyl Choline
-Regular Niacin(nicotinic acid)-go for the flush, it's good for you
-Carnosine
-NA R ALA-may be the superior form of lipoic acid
-Methylcobalamin B12
-Metafolin(l methylfolate)
-Vitamin D3!-oil based softgel form-Carlson's Solar D is great-maybe 2000 iu and get your levels tested after a few months
Posted by morgan miller on October 26, 2010, at 23:38:19
In reply to maximize supplements, lower meds?, posted by Christ_empowered on October 26, 2010, at 17:39:59
Forgot to also mention DHEA.
Posted by Hombre on October 27, 2010, at 21:22:31
In reply to maximize supplements, lower meds?, posted by Christ_empowered on October 26, 2010, at 17:39:59
I've read three books recently that suggest that certain herbs can be used in conjunction with meds and may enable one to lower the dose.
I believe that herbs act at a more fundamental level than supplements. If you underlying physiological processes are not optimized, you may not be able to make use of the nutrients you are taking in. In my experience, after a period of taking herbs I do not really notice as much of a difference if I take my supplements or not. I have stamina and a calm energy I never had. Never. No doubt the meds are playing a part, but the addition of herbs and especially exercise can turn around what may seem like "poop out".
Two of the books are written by practicing psychiatrists. Apaptogens is written by practicing herbalists and contains a large amount of research-based information on how adaptogenic herbs work, as well as the traditional indications. This book is tremendous in its comprehensive nature and the inclusion of nervine herbs such as Avena sativa.
Posted by Hombre on October 27, 2010, at 21:24:23
In reply to Re: maximize supplements, lower meds?, posted by Hombre on October 27, 2010, at 21:22:31
That last link should be "St. John's Wort". Don't let its title or size fool you. It's an extremely thoughtful look at St. John's Wort by someone who has prescribed it to his patients.
Posted by morgan miller on October 28, 2010, at 0:47:40
In reply to Re: maximize supplements, lower meds?, posted by Hombre on October 27, 2010, at 21:22:31
Hombre, can you run down what you think are the most influential herbs in your regimen? I think you are taking astragalus and ginseng? What else is making a difference?
I've tried telling people here that if a medication is working well, regular proper exercise(moderate to intense is best IMO), a proper diet, and fish oil can help prevent poop out. I had plenty of times when I thought my medication was not working nearly as well as before. I just stuck with it and keep working out and taking care of myself and low and behold I ended up feeling great once again.
Posted by Hombre on October 28, 2010, at 9:28:54
In reply to Re: maximize supplements, lower meds?, posted by morgan miller on October 28, 2010, at 0:47:40
In terms of Chinese medicine, the core formula I use for energy contains four herbs: ginseng or codonopsis, white atractylodes, poria, and licorice. These herbs work together to enhance digestion, drain excess moisture, and stoke the metabolic fire. By tonifying the spleen, they also helps to keep muscles nourished and healthy.
This formula serves as the basis for many energy/Qi tonifying formulas, one of which is Ginseng and Astragalus combination. That one is great for energy too. There is a concept of synergy between herbs in a formula; that is, certain combinations produce an effect that is greater than the sum of its parts.
I also take eleuthero, ashwagandha, and rhodiola extracts on a rotating basis. I think they all help with energy and stamina. Rhodiola is a bit stimulating, I can feel it in my head. Ashwagandha is nice and warming, and gives good energy. Eleuthero...I think I only notice it if I push myself physically.
If you get a chance, pick up a copy of "Adaptogens". It's only $9.99 on Amazon in the Kindle version. I just installed Kindle for PC and it was there in a few seconds. It pretty much gives the best information I've seen on the herbs you can take on a regular basis.
I hope that helps.
Posted by Hombre on October 28, 2010, at 23:16:58
In reply to Re: maximize supplements, lower meds?, posted by Hombre on October 28, 2010, at 9:28:54
I also find it useful to take some herbs for the Kidneys, which house will power, drive, determination, and motivation. These are usually warming herbs that also increase libido and optimize sex hormones.
- cinnamon (not the common kind)
- prepared aconite (safe if properly prepared)These two herbs are found in: Jin Gui Shen Qi Wan. I feel more drive and will power if I take this formula regularly. It helps a lot with the sexual side effects of AD and AAP medication, as well as the apathetic "blah" that these drugs can also bring on. Nobody seems to take me seriously about this. Too bad, because the effects are undeniable if you go from not being able to do things to feeling driven. I also find ashwagandha pretty stimulating in this regard as well.
I am also experimenting with tongkat ali and tribulus for the same purpose. To be honest, whether taking these herbs individually or in combination, I don't know if I notice an effect. Some say you should cycle them, but maybe I'm not taking them regularly enough. Since I'm out of Jin Gi Shen Qi Wan and may not buy more for a while, I should just take tongkat ali and tribulus every day to see if I feel something.
Posted by Lao Tzu on October 29, 2010, at 12:04:34
In reply to maximize supplements, lower meds?, posted by Christ_empowered on October 26, 2010, at 17:39:59
Don't know if you should lower the dosage on your meds without first letting your doctor know. The supplements you mentioned are indeed very useful for mental illness. However, if the Abilify is controlling your symptoms, I say stick with it and use the supplements as well. The antipsychotic is working on specific receptors in the brain which help your symptoms, and the supplements are not necessarily going to do that for you. Be very careful. If you need advice as to how to lower your meds while using nutrients, then you should talk with an orthomolecular doctor before trying this on your own. I have read that using high dose Niacin and Vitamin C, along with other nutrients like zinc and B6 allowed some schizophrenics to lower their medication, but I would get some valid information about how to do it from someone who could evaluate your condition. If your doctor thinks you would still be okay by lowering your meds, then try it, but I don't think he would unless there was good evidence that using the supplements would improve your condition. I'm taking 4mg of Risperdal per day because of the psychosis I had a few years ago. It really does control a lot of the symptoms. You can still use the supplements in addition to the meds. They definitely will help somewhat, but ask your doctor what he thinks and if you should get a second opinion. Good luck!
Lao
Posted by Hombre on November 2, 2010, at 5:06:15
In reply to Re: maximize supplements, lower meds?, posted by morgan miller on October 26, 2010, at 23:38:19
Sorry to have hijacked your thread, Christ_empowered, but I wanted to make one more comment:
Ashwagandha is the closest thing to the Chinese herbs that gives real warmth/stimulates metabolism, but in my opinion it might take a while to really kick in. It is pretty calming, I think.
I suffer from deficient Kidney Yang by nature and in a large part because of the medications I'm on. The main symptoms are a generally apathy and lack of drive, feeling "out of it", hypothyroid/hypoendocrine type symptoms. I feel no desire to do anything.
I think my AD, an SNRI, stimulates kidney yang and hence revs up metabolism a bit, but since I have had some serious anxiety and sleep problems in conjunction with debilitating depression, I have to put a cap on the top with something like Seroquel. Benzos and Z-drugs work pretty well also, but they have to be taken often and sometimes you don't know you need them until your mind starts starts going into overdrive.
The problem with something like Seroquel is that is seriously slows down metabolism and causes what they call "dampness" in Chinese medicine, which can be an accumulation of fluid and/or fat. You just sort of get lazy, puffy, and couldn't care less about anything. While it is nice not to be depressed, this is no good if you want to get on with the business of living. There is also the vague anxiety associated with not feeling productive. That may be more psychological than physiological.
After taking an unscheduled week or so off my Kidney Yang tonic formula, I decided that I was becoming too apathetic. I bought the pills and took a strong dose. A little while later I started feeling warm, especially in my lower back and abdomen, and a little while after that I decided I needed to cook some pasta. Usually these herbs won't have such an immediate effect, but the formula I take contains prepared (detoxified) aconite, the strongest Yang tonic herb in the Chinese materia medica. Not something you want to mess with in raw form, but in a formula it is safe.
I am not going to mess around any more with too many other herbs. The adaptogens are good for overall energy, but for my core hypo-metabolic symptoms/kidney yang deficiency, I do better with the Chinese herbal formula (Jin Gui Shen Qi Wan). If the kidneys are strong, they will also support good digestion (again, the metaphor of fire).
If I feel like I am retaining unnecessary weight despite good diet and exercise, or feel like my overall energy is flagging, I can always take the myriad Chinese tonic herbs for Spleen and overall energy (mitochondrial health). These may not be necessary on a regular basis.
The take home lesson is that there are certain states of function/dysfunction that the body can get into that can strongly affect mood, motivation, drive, energy, anxiety, and other things we normally associate with the 'brain' but don't think have anything to do with our 'guts' or 'organs'. But everything is connected, and many of these connections escape the narrow view of reductionist science. Let's not let that keep us from delving into alternative therapies, especially one so well documented and tested as herbal medicine.
Posted by Christ_empowered on November 2, 2010, at 22:05:05
In reply to Re: maximize supplements, lower meds?, posted by Hombre on November 2, 2010, at 5:06:15
how did you learn so much about TCM? Do you go to an herbalist?
Posted by Hombre on November 2, 2010, at 23:51:03
In reply to Re: maximize supplements, lower meds?, posted by Christ_empowered on November 2, 2010, at 22:05:05
Christ_empowered,
I first got into Chinese medicine through practicing Tai Chi and Chi Kung. I read a lot of the general theories, but none of it made much sense until I experienced some problems that responded to herbs. In the past, I did not take very good care of myself and my body was very weak, which made my depression worse.
I did see an herbalist for about 6 months several years ago. I had reached rock bottom and didn't know what else to do. For some reason I didn't understand that I was depressed and should have considered medication. That's the power of denial, I guess. The herbs helped quite a bit, but I still wasn't exercising enough and had some other issues that were keeping me dysthymic most of the time.
More recently, I added herbs to my regimen in order to address some of the side effects of my medications. I've done a lot of online research as well as reading whatever I could find at the library. It's very complicated, and the only way I can learn is to read, ponder, experiment with herbs, and then refer back to the texts.
I am also gaining some experience by helping a friend out with her depression. I write down certain formulas from books, buy the raw herbs, and cook them up. I add a few herbs here and there to see if it has any effect.
In this way, I've become familiar with certain types of deficiency patterns and how tonic herbs may help. Herbs can supplement, and in combination with proper diet, rest, and exercise, they can serve as a catalyst towards greater states of health.
Posted by Hombre on November 3, 2010, at 0:01:58
In reply to Re: maximize supplements, lower meds?, posted by Christ_empowered on November 2, 2010, at 22:05:05
Hmmm...thinking about the herbalist I saw made me remember something. He was from China, and had taught at a medical college. His English was OK at best, but we developed a good relationship. He'd listen to me talk for an hour and then would package up my herbs for the week. He never used a scale, just eyeballed everthing from his years of experience. He was widely considered to be one of the best around by all sorts of massage therapists and alternative healers in my Tai Chi class.
One advice he gave me, which I stubbornly ignored due to my 100% commitment to being a "tai chi" guy, was just to get more exercise. To run, lift weights. He said he lifted weights at the Y several times a week.
I expressed an interest in learning Chinese medicine, and he seemed to think it'd be a good idea. I didn't have the resources, however, so I let that dream go, but lately I can't stop reading about herbs!
I'd like to visit him again, I think he'd be interested to know that I've picked up a little Chinese and have used herbs to good effect. I'd also like him to see me in a better state of health. I think he really cared about me and wanted to help me. A really good man.
Posted by sigismund on November 23, 2010, at 1:24:21
In reply to Re: maximize supplements, lower meds?, posted by Hombre on November 3, 2010, at 0:01:58
>I expressed an interest in learning Chinese medicine, and he seemed to think it'd be a good idea.
Why not?
You'd probably be good at it and you have an inside view of (well, I have no idea of what your problem is, but presumably you have one) (shall we say) mental issues.
I went to the best TCM herbalst around here and got Wen Dan Tang (Bamboo and Hoelen) and An Shen Ding Zhi Wan (zizyphis and polygala). The idea seems to be that my liver thingo is screwed and therefore the heart fire cannot be quenched and wakes me at 1am.
Worked straight away, somewhat.
The plan is to clear the heat and tonify the blood, for a start.
Posted by Hombre on November 23, 2010, at 7:00:42
In reply to Re: maximize supplements, lower meds? » Hombre, posted by sigismund on November 23, 2010, at 1:24:21
> >I expressed an interest in learning Chinese medicine, and he seemed to think it'd be a good idea.
>
> Why not?
>
> You'd probably be good at it and you have an inside view of (well, I have no idea of what your problem is, but presumably you have one) (shall we say) mental issues.Money. Money has always been an issue for me since I first got ill around 14-15 yrs old. I dropped out of a top university and was already in full-on depression by 18. Homeless by 20. I managed to get it together enough to work later on, but I had no dreams or the ability to make long term plans. What money I made seemed to slip through my fingers.
The hope is that I can get back on my feet, work hard, make some smart investments/business decisions, and maybe learn and practice herbalism formally later on. I'd love to retire and do it full-time. For now, though, I want to make up for all the living I didn't do in my 20s due to mental illness, low self-esteem, etc. Nothing crazy, just make decent money, afford to buy organic food/supplements, travel a little, not feel like a failure/loser.
> I went to the best TCM herbalst around here and got Wen Dan Tang (Bamboo and Hoelen) and An Shen Ding Zhi Wan (zizyphis and polygala). The idea seems to be that my liver thingo is screwed and therefore the heart fire cannot be quenched and wakes me at 1am.
Did you get pills, powder, or raw herbs? I'm thinking it's a bit odd you got two textbook formulas with no modifications, but perhaps it is more convenient. I'm very curious to see how the second formula works for you. I need to consult the internet oracles to see what the first one does.
They say that all mental illness ultimately effects the Heart. That's true in the literal and figurative sense. The Heart "houses the shen(spirit)", so if Heart blood and Yin is deficient, shen can't settle at night.
Liver stagnation leading to heat is pretty much par for the course for most people these days. Liver Yin can be consumed by the excess Heat, and the heat can spread.
According to the 5 Elements, Wood (liver)-> Fire
(heart), so heart yin will suffer from the excess heat as well. I think it has to do with balancing out the parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous responses. There are tons of hormones that need to be produced, secreted, then processed and broken down, probably in the liver.The liver also produces, stores, and releases glycogen (long chain form of glucose), so that could have something else to do with it. You can see how it's almost easier to use the metaphorical terms because trying to tie all these various processes together would take a genius.
Ever notice how all these psyche drugs can induce or inhibit cytochrome p450 enzymes in the liver? So there's that to consider as well. I find it interesting that liver stagnation is always implicated with depression. See, all this stuff is related somehow, but it would still seem like magic to make the connections. So, we might as well talk about yin, yang, heat, cold, and follow the principles in the classics. Perhaps the old timer's lack of specific knowledge allowed them to see the forest and not get stuck on the DNA of the trees.
> Worked straight away, somewhat.Wow.
> The plan is to clear the heat and tonify the blood, for a start.
I think it is worth a shot. It might take some time, though, so I guess wait and see.
Best of luck with this treatment, and I for one look forward to any updates as they come.
Posted by sigismund on November 23, 2010, at 11:49:03
In reply to Re: maximize supplements, lower meds? » sigismund, posted by Hombre on November 23, 2010, at 7:00:42
> Money has always been an issue for me since I first got ill around 14-15 yrs old. I dropped out of a top university and was already in full-on depression by 18. Homeless by 20
Oh my goodness.
>> Worked straight away, somewhat.>Wow.
>> The plan is to clear the heat and tonify the blood, for a start.
I could feel the difference last night. I'd say it has the strength/effect (although of course it is nothing like it) of 5mg Valium.
It is striking how different the effect of a herb is in the formula as against on its own. When I use Zizyphus alone I need heaps. In the formula there is not nearly so much. I have not had any previous experience with polygala.
Posted by sigismund on November 23, 2010, at 14:59:32
In reply to Re: maximize supplements, lower meds? » sigismund, posted by Hombre on November 23, 2010, at 7:00:42
>I'm thinking it's a bit odd you got two textbook formulas with no modifications, but perhaps it is more convenient.
I live in an area of very small towns, so there are no TCM herbalists here as you have described them.
These people have training though. They were very thorough with the history taking.
Already my tongue has changed appearance. It has lost the white coat. One of the herbalists said that the white coat was a sign of the heat but that under that it was quite pale. Thus the blood tonics. I'm not sure we're up to that yet. It will be a process.
Posted by Hombre on November 23, 2010, at 20:57:17
In reply to Re: maximize supplements, lower meds? » Hombre, posted by sigismund on November 23, 2010, at 14:59:32
Sounds good. Patent formulas, in high enough doses, can be effective. You could always order the raw herbs at a later date and cook them up with guidance from your doctors. I hope you continue to see improvement.
This is the end of the thread.
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