![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 28 to 52 of 62. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on January 21, 2007, at 18:20:49
In reply to Re: helping » Honore, posted by Happyflower on January 21, 2007, at 17:30:07
> So if Happyflower's "do not post to me" was inforced,not ignored, and I wasn't continuesly what felt like harrasment to me several times for longer than a month after the "do not post", than Happyflower would have been glad to shut up about it.
I'm sorry, Happyflower, but you've been asked to be civil about this topic before, so I'm afraid I'm going to have to block you. I'll let Dr. Bob set the length.
Dr. Bob is always free to override deputy decisions. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.
Dinah, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob
Posted by Dinah on January 21, 2007, at 18:26:29
In reply to Re: helping, posted by Honore on January 21, 2007, at 16:50:30
> I may also be mistaken, but I believe what was pressuring in the situation with Deneb (I'm sorry, but I think this is the only way to make sense of this discussion) was that Happyflower kept bringing up the threats that Deneb had made, and was unable to let the situation go.
I'm sorry, Honore, but I'm going to have to ask you to please don't jump to conclusions, or post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. It really *is* hard to bring up specifics in discussing things on Admin.
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Dr. Bob is always free to override deputy decisions. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.
Dinah, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob
Posted by Honore on January 21, 2007, at 19:17:20
In reply to Please be civil » Honore, posted by Dinah on January 21, 2007, at 18:26:29
Sorry. I didn't mean to cause anyone to feel accused.
If you or Bob feel that my comments provoked Happyflower, I'd really prefer that you block me rather than her. I'd much rather this had a better outcome for everyone than HF's being blocked.
Happyflower, if you're reading, I'm really sorry if my comments upset you. I wasn't thinking about your reading that, and it should have occurred to me. I hope you're not going to leave Babble. I really do.
Honore
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 21, 2007, at 19:21:03
In reply to Blocked » Happyflower, posted by Dinah on January 21, 2007, at 18:20:49
Dr Bob I am not a friend of HF's but I would like this block to be looked at closer. As this deputy did state you may override this decision.. I feel HF WAS being pressured in the above *posts* YET the other poster did not get many or any do not pressures....can you please take a look at this.
> > So if Happyflower's "do not post to me" was inforced,not ignored, and I wasn't continuesly what felt like harrasment to me several times for longer than a month after the "do not post", than Happyflower would have been glad to shut up about it.
>
> I'm sorry, Happyflower, but you've been asked to be civil about this topic before, so I'm afraid I'm going to have to block you. I'll let Dr. Bob set the length.
>
> Dr. Bob is always free to override deputy decisions. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.
>
> Dinah, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 21, 2007, at 19:23:37
In reply to Re: helping » ElaineM, posted by Deneb on January 21, 2007, at 16:41:46
You are entitled to your fee;ings and beliefs ...but what if that person doesn't HAVE any friends? Would not a professional be of more help? Or could said person help themself somehow
> > [However, if I'd "only" said that I was so sad, and never felt lonelier in my life, was afraid I was gonna get fired from my job, was having a fight with my significant other, couldn't stop crying my eyes out....etc..... then I'd expect my friend to listen with open ears, talk me through it, perhaps offer a bit of advice or anecdote, make plans to get together with me in person, try to make me laugh a little, whatnot. But that's not what we're talking about here.]
> > El
>
> I think someone who was suicidal or someone who was thinking of hurting himself/herself would also benefit from being listened to, made to laugh, etc.
>
> If everyone just tells the person to go to a professional and the professional doesn't know how to make the person feel better what then? There is no one else to turn to. I think friends can make a big difference, even more so than a T.
>
> Deneb*
Posted by Dinah on January 21, 2007, at 19:28:36
In reply to Re: Blocked/DR BOB request to override, posted by Fallen4MyT on January 21, 2007, at 19:21:03
> I feel HF WAS being pressured in the above *posts*
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
If you wish to report a post, please use the report this post feature, or email Dr. Bob or a deputy.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Dr. Bob is always free to override deputy decisions. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.
Dinah, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 21, 2007, at 19:32:56
In reply to Re: helping - Trigger? » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on January 21, 2007, at 8:17:13
I posted this yesterday in Social it's all about the same thing you posted later today. I too am waiting to see what suggestions Dr. Bob has for us. I think and feel it would be safer to just not reply or help because that could now be pressuring and not civil. I also went into depth on how this could impact Deneb should people feel the help they give or gave could be pressure....she may be shunned :( This is not what I want but some will now be afraid to say anything THEY belive to be helpful../...I HOPE DR. BOB addresses my post below....I don't know if I was able to make it clickable
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20070112/msgs/724665.html
> I never can figure out where trigger warnings should go.
>
> I don't think there is much we *can* do except say I'm sorry you're feeling so bad, we care about you and want the best for you, and please go see someone IRL.
>
> For two reasons.
>
> One, there really is so much Babble can do. We're here for supporting each other, but how can we do any more than that? We can't call the police. We can't confiscate drugs. We can't sit with someone until the next day when they can go see their pdoc.
>
> And two, many Babblers can only bear to babble if they *know* that that's all they can do. Knowing our limits of ability reassures us of our limits of responsibility.
>
> How can you deprive us of the protections for both those of us feeling like harming ourselves and those of us interacting and trying to help those who feel like harming themselves.
>
> Even my therapist has his boundaries where he folds his arms and tells me I need to be in a hospital, and he can't be the protection I need.
>
> You're not here, and your boundaries are in place by your absence. Why discourage others from helping someone in the best way they know how (and the only way they can), and keeping in place an important boundary at the same time.
>
> When does encouragement to do the wise thing become pressure?
>
> What would you suggest instead?
>
> I'll try to remember that not everyone has therapists as available as mine, that ER isn't always a help (surely I know that here right now), and that help lines aren't always all that helpful. And I can empathise with that. But I can't do the job of the facilities that aren't doing their's.
>
> But if I'm not allowed, even in broken record mode, to suggest that someone contact help IRL, and remind them that Babble is no real life substitute in times like this, then I would not be able to respond at all to people in crisis.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 21, 2007, at 20:22:30
In reply to Please be civil » Fallen4MyT, posted by Dinah on January 21, 2007, at 19:28:36
Oh you are so right Dinah . How should I have put it so that YOU would not issue a PBC? Are you`feeling putdown or accused? I am so sorry.
As I DID just state how I FEEL based in HFs statements that that is how she felt YES I will ask Dr Bob to look this over...But thank you so much for pointing this out.
> > I feel HF WAS being pressured in the above *posts*
>
> Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
>
> If you wish to report a post, please use the report this post feature, or email Dr. Bob or a deputy.
>
> If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
>
> Follow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
>
> Dr. Bob is always free to override deputy decisions. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.
>
> Dinah, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 21, 2007, at 20:33:31
In reply to Re: helping - Trigger? » Dinah, posted by Fallen4MyT on January 21, 2007, at 19:32:56
Posted by ClearSkies on January 21, 2007, at 22:21:32
In reply to Re: helping, posted by Honore on January 21, 2007, at 16:50:30
> I may be mistaken, by at the risk of misattributing intentions to people, I think what' s happening here is that a specific situation--which may or may not be reminiscent of other situations, but which is very much the point here-- is being discussed abstractly because we don't feel it's fair to discuss it specifically.
>
> ie we don't want to name names, but we're discussing something that derives so much from a particular, unrepeatable situation, that it we really are making false substitutions, in speaking abstractly.
>
> And I think this discussion is going seriously awry-- and generalizations here are not very useful or even very germaine.
>I think that turning discussions about specific situations into general ones can escalate the issues.
> I may also be mistaken, but I believe what was pressuring in the situation with Deneb (I'm sorry, but I think this is the only way to make sense of this discussion) was that Happyflower kept bringing up the threats that Deneb had made, and was unable to let the situation go. Others also responded, to a situation that had been really resolved-- ie it was essentially over.
>I think it would have been best for everyone if a "truce" or "ceasefire" had been called. I don't think I'd respond well to such a suggestion being made, though.
> Plus it would, I feel, have been much better to discuss this privately, rather than publicly--which also would have avoided the pressuring aspect.
>
> I don't think repeating good advice is per se pressuring-- even if it isn't the most helpful strategy (although-depending on the situation, and person-- it may be).
>
> Plus, I don't think it's really what's at stake here.
>
> Honore
>
>
>
>
>
>This is exactly, exactly how I feel. I tried to write this post several times, but, Honore, you have done it for me.
ClearSkies
Posted by All Done on January 21, 2007, at 22:25:01
In reply to Re: Please be civil » Dinah, posted by Fallen4MyT on January 21, 2007, at 20:22:30
Fallen,
I guess I just want to say that adding "I feel" to the beginning of a sentence does not necessarily make it an acceptable "I" statement under Dr. Bob's civility guidelines.
For example, can you see the difference between the two statements:
I feel Poster X was hurtful to me.
vs.
I feel hurt by Poster X's words.
The first statement is in effect calling Poster X a hurtful person. The second statement refers to *my* reaction to whatever Poster X wrote.
I don't know if this helps at all, but it's my understanding of "I" statements and how Dr. Bob might like to see them, FWIW.
Laurie
> Oh you are so right Dinah . How should I have put it so that YOU would not issue a PBC? Are you`feeling putdown or accused? I am so sorry.
>
> As I DID just state how I FEEL based in HFs statements that that is how she felt YES I will ask Dr Bob to look this over...But thank you so much for pointing this out.
Posted by gardenergirl on January 21, 2007, at 22:50:04
In reply to Re: 'I' statements » Fallen4MyT, posted by All Done on January 21, 2007, at 22:25:01
Great examples and explanation!
namaste
gg
PS: Go Colts! ;)
Posted by gardenergirl on January 21, 2007, at 23:05:30
In reply to Re: helping » Dr. Bob, posted by ElaineM on January 21, 2007, at 15:57:33
> >>>>>I'm sorry you're feeling so bad, we care about you and want the best for you, and please go see someone IRL.
>
> Don't want to take your advice. I want to take this bottle of pills. I'm so upset. I don't want to live.I think it's important for all of us to keep in mind that no one has to take anyone else's advice, and no one has to even change if they don't wish to. As much as it might be painful and/or frustrating for others, folks do have the right to have maladaptive thoughts, feelings, and behaviors. So in the modified example here, I would view the "broken record" of continuing to suggest the same thing as being pressure, but not the repetition of the thoughts about harming oneself.
I also think there's a difference between suggesting a course of action and insisting on one, so I agree it's quite a subjective call.
What has helped me in similar situations is to pay attention to boundaries. I have to remind myself that I'm not responsible for anyone else's feelings, thoughts, or behavior, even if the other suggests I am. I have to remind myself not to respond as if I am, too, but rather try to stay more objective.
It's sure as heck not always easy, though.
namaste
gg
Posted by zenhussy on January 21, 2007, at 23:08:27
In reply to Re: helping, posted by gardenergirl on January 21, 2007, at 23:05:30
>>I have to remind myself not to respond as if I am, too, but rather try to stay more objective.
It's sure as heck not always easy, though.<<
Posted by one woman cine on January 22, 2007, at 8:21:43
In reply to Re: helping » Dr. Bob, posted by ElaineM on January 21, 2007, at 15:57:33
Babble does not offer therapy. I see my hands as being tied. If someone I knew was suicidal, I would urge them to get help in real life ASAP. If my "helping" is seen as pressure, then I feel silenced & will no longer offer help to people who appear to me to be be asking for that help.
The FAQ has explicit statements about seeking help IRL and getting the help you need. What is the point of the FAQ if some things are arbitrarily followed?
Cyber hugs will not prevent death.
Posted by zenhussy on January 22, 2007, at 10:59:55
In reply to Re: helping - suicide, posted by one woman cine on January 22, 2007, at 8:21:43
>>Cyber hugs will not prevent death.<<
Posted by one woman cine on January 22, 2007, at 11:35:21
In reply to nor have they, more than once, sadly » one woman cine, posted by zenhussy on January 22, 2007, at 10:59:55
I feel somewhat flummoxed by the idea of offering help as "pressure". This is the only way to help I know how to give online, & that is to seek help IRL.
What can be seen as supportive in the face of impending suicide? I have no way of knowing if the threats are true or not. It feels that by *not* telling someone to get IRL would be colluding in a self-harm.
What about the case of yelling "fire!" in a crowded movie theater? The intent is may not be the same, but the effect is - IMO. The poster is saying they need help, that metaphorically, they are on fire. The fire needs to be put out - it is not time to sit idly by, though -
I'm not sure how to proceed...
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 22, 2007, at 15:16:13
In reply to Blocked » Happyflower, posted by Dinah on January 21, 2007, at 18:20:49
> I'll let Dr. Bob set the length.
According to the current system:
previous block: 3 weeks
period of time since previous block: 3 weeks
uncivil toward a particular individual or group: yes
particularly uncivil: no
different type of incivility: no
clearly didn't understand PBC and made effort to reply: no
provoked: yes
uncivil in multiple posts at same time: no
already archived: noIf we take 3 weeks, divide by 10, and round, that's a reduction of 0 weeks. If we apply that to her previous block, that's 3 - 0 = 3 weeks. And if we double that, that's 6 weeks.
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 22, 2007, at 15:16:17
In reply to Re: Please be civil-- sorry » Dinah, posted by Honore on January 21, 2007, at 19:17:20
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 22, 2007, at 16:08:25
In reply to Re: helping - suicide, posted by one woman cine on January 22, 2007, at 8:21:43
> If my "helping" is seen as pressure, then I feel silenced & will no longer offer help to people who appear to me to be be asking for that help.
>
> one woman cineOK, but might there be a way to encourage and help that wouldn't be seen as pressure?
> I'd hope my friend would think that my life/health is worth saving and react according to the level of seriousness my distress merited. And I think they would make a call to someone
>
> ElThanks for giving this some thought. Maybe they wouldn't just *think* you were worth saving, but *tell* you that, too. What if they didn't know who to call, what would you want them to do then?
--
> it suggests that posters engaging in advice broken-record-mode feel a less signigicant type of upset or hurt, than broken record distress posters.
>
> [my friend] would be scared sh*tless that I was talking in such extremes
>
> ElThose giving advice certainly might feel upset or hurt or scared. If so, maybe they could also ask for support for themselves? Maybe without mentioning the other posters, since that might lead them to feel blamed, like Fallen suggested that those who feel suicidal because of other posters not say who:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20061228/msgs/723508.html
Hmm, maybe I should merge these threads...
Bob
Posted by muffled on January 22, 2007, at 16:17:01
In reply to Re: the length, posted by Dr. Bob on January 22, 2007, at 15:16:13
> > I'll let Dr. Bob set the length.
>
> According to the current system:
>
> previous block: 3 weeks
> period of time since previous block: 3 weeks
> uncivil toward a particular individual or group: yes
> particularly uncivil: no
> different type of incivility: no
> clearly didn't understand PBC and made effort to reply: no
> provoked: yes
> uncivil in multiple posts at same time: no
> already archived: no
>
> If we take 3 weeks, divide by 10, and round, that's a reduction of 0 weeks. If we apply that to her previous block, that's 3 - 0 = 3 weeks. And if we double that, that's 6 weeks.
>
> Bob**Bob, my heart hurts to read this. So numerical and inhumane. And I'm not sure I understand how it works, but I just goto say AGAIN, that it goes up too fast :(
There's just something wrong here.
This is supposed to be a place of support.Support:To keep from weakening or failing; strengthen: The letter supported him in his grief.
Support:to sustain (a person, the mind, spirits, courage, etc.) under trial or affliction: They supported him throughout his ordeal.
Muffled
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 22, 2007, at 17:54:12
In reply to Re: 'I' statements » Fallen4MyT, posted by All Done on January 21, 2007, at 22:25:01
Thank you Laurie you're always so nice to me...I do see what you are saying in your examples however I do not see it as it pertains to my post. I cannot seem to see how mt post was not civil. I am not sure it was not civil to be honest..THANKS
> Fallen,
>
> I guess I just want to say that adding "I feel" to the beginning of a sentence does not necessarily make it an acceptable "I" statement under Dr. Bob's civility guidelines.
>
> For example, can you see the difference between the two statements:
>
> I feel Poster X was hurtful to me.
>
> vs.
>
> I feel hurt by Poster X's words.
>
> The first statement is in effect calling Poster X a hurtful person. The second statement refers to *my* reaction to whatever Poster X wrote.
>
> I don't know if this helps at all, but it's my understanding of "I" statements and how Dr. Bob might like to see them, FWIW.
>
> Laurie
>
>
> > Oh you are so right Dinah . How should I have put it so that YOU would not issue a PBC? Are you`feeling putdown or accused? I am so sorry.
> >
> > As I DID just state how I FEEL based in HFs statements that that is how she felt YES I will ask Dr Bob to look this over...But thank you so much for pointing this out.
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 22, 2007, at 19:37:24
In reply to Re: 'I' statements, posted by Fallen4MyT on January 22, 2007, at 17:54:12
> I cannot seem to see how mt post was not civil.
Thanks for wanting to understand this.
> > I feel HF WAS being pressured in the above *posts*
The issue with the above is that it could lead someone who was posting with HF to feel accused of pressuring her. More of an I-statement would be something like:
> > I would have felt pressured in the above *posts*
That's more about you and less about them. Also, we're asking posters who want to notify us about an issue to do so with that button instead of by posting.
Does this make more sense now?
Bob
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 22, 2007, at 21:09:03
In reply to Re: 'I' statements, posted by Dr. Bob on January 22, 2007, at 19:37:24
> > I cannot seem to see how mt post was not civil.
>
> Thanks for wanting to understand this.
>
> > > I feel HF WAS being pressured in the above *posts*
>
> The issue with the above is that it could lead someone who was posting with HF to feel accused of pressuring her. More of an I-statement would be something like:
>
> > > I would have felt pressured in the above *posts*
>
> That's more about you and less about them. Also, we're asking posters who want to notify us about an issue to do so with that button instead of by posting.
>
> Does this make more sense now?
>
> BobThanks Dr Bob it's a little clearer BUT :) would it have been best to have said in Hf's shoes I would have felt pressured? I try NOT to use peoples names as not to lead them to feel put down...so I did it in a general way...And why not a please rephrase that ? Maybe those no longer exist?> I lose track of the rules when they change
Posted by ElaineM on January 22, 2007, at 23:23:58
In reply to Re: helping, posted by Dr. Bob on January 22, 2007, at 16:08:25
[I'll separate my responses so that one can be put to rest]
>>>>>>>Thanks for giving this some thought. Maybe they wouldn't just *think* you were worth saving, but *tell* you that, too. What if they didn't know who to call, what would you want them to do then?
Thanks for saying you appreciate my contribution. But are you really asking me to clarify this :) cause I can't tell? -- I'll assume so, cause in my other post I thought it went without saying.... Well, I'm sure my friends would know either my parents or my sister's number (or boyfriend's, if I had one). [I'm talking friend, not just aquantance] If not (and for the sake of your argument, were thoroughly isolated from me in terms of common relations, and distance), I'm sure they could manage calling the police -- my baby cousin even knows 911.
People who are concerned and motivated, to protect themself or another's life, try to make the attempts they feel would most likely be successful.
Have you not even searched someone through obtaining an ISP number before?...or something like that, it's been referred to somewhat recently on the admin pages but I'm not familiar.
Maybe I'm confused, but have you not also contacted police before too?
If a patient called you and said they were suicidal would you tell them to go and call a friend instead?But back to your question, Yes I agree, considering that we only had phone or computer contact, I suppose my friend *would* tell me multiple times that I was worth saving - who doesn't say that to someone who makes such an outcry? Plus, I don't think suggesting IRL help has ever been the *only* words offered in a thread before, without other statements of friendship or concern. But in terms of preventing someone in such a desperate mental state, interms of human life, I'd like to rely on *real-life* action rather than far away professions of friendship. Tunnel vision typical of a true suicidal state often traps sufferers in their own process and thoughts. When people are suicidal they usually are only thinking about ending their own pain at that moment -- it's against human instinct to not fight for survival, it takes an awful lot of emotional and psychological distress for someone to reach that place....But Bob, you know this! People who kill themselves can often be aware that taking their own life would be hard for those who care about them to take -- they write goodbye notes for example -- and then follow through anyways. Infact, every pamphlet and website *I've* ever seen on suicide says that if you have a friend who is suicidal to take them seriously and tell someone appropriate (I've even read "They may resent you in the moment for betraying their confidence, but it's to save their life. You can argue about it later. Better safe than sorry").
Plus, what if my friend had already told me many many times that she cared for me? What if I hung up the phone? What if I lied and said, "Thank's for the word hugs, I'm fine now, don't worry, I love you back" and then I went off and did it anyways. How can anything but IRL help be the *best* defense, and so, the automatic suggestion?! I'm not saying talk can't also be involved, but this other part must always be included in such circumstances.There have also been *multiple* other posters who engage in various forms of self-harm who have been told by *multiple* other fellow posters in the thread to call crisis lines, their T, or take themself to the ER if they thought they could follow through. It's not a unique scenario. I bet there's only a handful of threads (if that) where someone posting to communicate to others, mentions thinking of some form of self-injury and they are NOT told one, if not all, of those three suggestions -- suggestions that have often been *repeated* additional times to posters whose urges peak again at a later date.
First of all, trying to convince a psychiatrist this makes me feel like I'm in the twilight zone -- It almost makes me feel like you're taking part in this aspect of the debate tongue-in-cheek. Cause I kinda can't believe that you're trying to talk us out of saying that, as a given, suicidal people and those talking of overdosing should be told to call professionals - and you're trying rather hard too. I can't imagine any other doctor promoting the same thing as you. I really really can't understand. Are you differentiating crying-wolf and true suicidality in your head? though I prefer to take all outcries seriously. Or perhaps you sometimes blur non-suicidal emotional upset, with suicidality? I've been wondering if that could be part of the reason why you and several of us other posters aren't meeting eye to eye on this. Those are the only possible rational explanations I can think of. But, I don't want to repeat myself anymore, or this generally-accepted-by-others-in-the-helping-professions advice, any additional times. I'll just agree to disagree, and accept that you have a somewhat controversial stance on how laymen should react when someone brings up feeling suicidal, or confesses that they are at risk of being a danger to themself.
Done.
Sorry - Can't help being verbose when I feel strongly about something.
[*sleepy*]
thanks, El
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