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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Deneb on May 6, 2006, at 23:45:29
((((((((((Estella))))))))))))
I think I understand what you are saying about people, that people don't really care sometimes. Sometimes they just pretend to care.
I'm probably sometimes that way too. I mean, there is only so much I can care about a stranger. I know I write about myself and my problems a lot. I don't offer as much support as others here. I acknowledge these things. I can only be me. I'm trying to be a more supportive person. I will admit that it does take effort.
I just want to say that I really like you Estella. I like you whether you're being supportive or lashing out. I like you just the way you are, and that's the truth. I don't have to suspend my disbelief with you.
I know there are probably people here who write caring things to me and who really wouldn't miss me too much if I were to disappear. I like to pretend that all who write they care actually do care.
I really don't know if Dr. Bob gives a darn about us, but I'm just going to force myself to think that he cares because it makes me happy.
I'm choosing to live in some sort of fastasyland because it makes me happy.
I hope you can find some happiness, with or without this place.
I've missed you. I feel torn between convincing you to stay and encouraging you to get away because I really don't know if this place is helpful or harmful to you...it could very well be the latter.
Deneb* (who is very much in her own little world)
Posted by Estella on May 7, 2006, at 0:07:09
In reply to Estella, posted by Deneb on May 6, 2006, at 23:45:29
Everyone is in their own little world. Hurts capture ones attention so the only thing one can properly focus on is ones hurt. And the hurt... Drives our behaviour. What to do to minimise the hurt? To distract from it? People who are broken or cracked or bent or whatever... They can be very selfish indeed as their hurts... And I'm talking about everyone. And if that is an uncivil fact then so be it.
And the altruism... The altruism that is offered is every bit as selfish as the other things people do to minimise the hurt. Because that is what the altruism is about. It is about trying to 'earn' the right to be loved. It is just as selfish as lashing out in hurt. It works better because people tend to be favouribly disposed to altruists whereas they tend to turn on people who lash out. But if you want to test the limits of altruism then if you ever lash out in pain... Well just see the altruists turn and flee. See them try to shape your behaviour...
And you end up with support support support
And in some cases incredible bitchiness behind the scenes
Out of the way
People learn to work the system
And they are rewarded
And really the world is a f*cked up place.I understand the desire to retreat... To find some peace in fantasy.
The danger in idealisation is that it tends to be followed by disillusionment and hostility and rage.
That is why it is worthwhile trying to moderate it. To find the balance. Enjoy the good feelings but maybe also reflect a little. A question I've been wanting to ask you is...
What is love?
What does 'love' mean to you?
There may well be different kinds of love. That is okay.But what is love?
> I'm probably sometimes that way too. I mean, there is only so much I can care about a stranger. I know I write about myself and my problems a lot. I don't offer as much support as others here. I acknowledge these things. I can only be me. I'm trying to be a more supportive person. I will admit that it does take effort.
I'm like that sometimes. And watch the people flee. Maybe it is because... I used to offer so much more... I did. And now... People want that back. They want that back. I think people would like it if there were people here who just went around helping others and being silent on themselves their own issues. People who weren't selfishly focused on themselves. People who just worried about them. Who were there on demand.
And how people would feel about that...
Would that be love?
> I just want to say that I really like you Estella. I like you whether you're being supportive or lashing out. I like you just the way you are, and that's the truth. I don't have to suspend my disbelief with you.((((Deneb))))
I'm so sorry this has happened to me :-(
I'm real scared.
I'm sorry.
> I know there are probably people here who write caring things to me and who really wouldn't miss me too much if I were to disappear. I like to pretend that all who write they care actually do care.Yeah. That worked for me for a while... Not any more...
> I'm choosing to live in some sort of fastasyland because it makes me happy.I hear you.
But the trouble with idealisation...
I don't know. I don't know. I"m sorry.
Posted by Deneb on May 7, 2006, at 0:10:47
In reply to Estella, posted by Deneb on May 6, 2006, at 23:45:29
Estella, my heart breaks for you right now to see you in such pain.
I've been assuming that you've been doing well during your block. Now I know that I was wrong.
Sometimes people don't give us what we need. Sometimes we have to ask for it, even if it makes the help seem less sincere. I do that a lot...ask for support. I like to think the support is genuine.
I'm sorry you don't feel supported here. I hope you have IRL support.
I think part of why this place can affect you so much is because you care so much...maybe too much. I like that you care, but I want the best for you so I'm recommending that you don't care about us if we are not supporting you. Be selfish and be okay with it. Don't care so much about the things that happen here. Don't care too much about the people here if caring only hurts you.
((((((Estella)))))) I wish I could make you feel better.
Deneb*
Posted by Estella on May 7, 2006, at 0:19:35
In reply to Re: Estella, posted by Deneb on May 7, 2006, at 0:10:47
> Sometimes people don't give us what we need. Sometimes we have to ask for it, even if it makes the help seem less sincere. I do that a lot...ask for support. I like to think the support is genuine.
Yes. You have learned how to ask for support in the time you have been here. You used to try and get it with dramatic titles like "i'm going to kill myself" but now you have got the hang of asking more directly. :-)
That is a huge step... Why? Because it is as you said: If you have to ask... Then it seems less genuine. I understand. I had to learn to ask too.I don't know. I express pain. Sometimes that is the best I can do. But sometimes I can't express it in words. Sometimes I can. But other times I can't. All I can do is try and get other people to understand... How? By evoking the same feeling in them. I don't know why it is like that sometimes. It backfires always. But I can't find the words I can't find the words. And so I hurt when I'm hurting and I get blocked when I'm hurting 'cause I can't find the words. And sometimes ones sickness... Well ones sickness means one isn't fit for human company 'cause people have enough of their own hurts without being exposed to mine.
And there it is.
______________
What is love Deneb?
Posted by Deneb on May 7, 2006, at 1:01:03
In reply to Re: Estella, posted by Estella on May 7, 2006, at 0:07:09
> Everyone is in their own little world. Hurts capture ones attention so the only thing one can properly focus on is ones hurt.
I understand the inability to focus on others because of one's hurts. Hurts can be debilitating.
I also think some people are oblivious to problems not their own. Maybe they choose to be that way, maybe it's just a part of their personality, maybe it's a little of both. I don't think they are bad people. I think they need to be socialized. I think I have this problem a lot of the time...being oblivious to others problems. I'm sorry if I haven't supported you as much as you've supported me.
> And the altruism... The altruism that is offered is every bit as selfish as the other things people do to minimise the hurt. Because that is what the altruism is about. It is about trying to 'earn' the right to be loved.
That is precisely why I don't believe in true altruism. I think we all *want* something for ourselves when we do altruistic things....whether it is for love or a feeling of self satisfaction, it is ultimately a selfish act. I think all acts are inherently selfish. There is no way around not thinking of one's self.
> It is just as selfish as lashing out in hurt. It works better because people tend to be favouribly disposed to altruists whereas they tend to turn on people who lash out. But if you want to test the limits of altruism then if you ever lash out in pain... Well just see the altruists turn and flee. See them try to shape your behaviour...
(((((Estella))))) I'm sorry you experienced those things. It's hard to ignore things like that.
> And really the world is a f*cked up place.
...and we have to live in this world...
We have to learn to live in this world. Sometimes the world really can seem f*cked up, but I think our moods have a lot to do with it. Who knows what the truth is? Reality is subjective. I truly think you believe the world is f*cked up right now and it's true for you, but you might not think that if you were feeling better. Both realities can be true.
> I understand the desire to retreat... To find some peace in fantasy.I've had a lot of practice in my childhood. Hey, it works for me...
> The danger in idealisation is that it tends to be followed by disillusionment and hostility and rage.
I'll worry about that when it comes.
> A question I've been wanting to ask you is...
>
> What is love?
>
> What does 'love' mean to you?
> There may well be different kinds of love. That is okay.I really don't think I've ever experienced true love, whatever that means. I think love is demonstrated through caring acts....caring and unselfish acts (as unselfish as acts can be). Caring acts make the person feel better. The more caring acts there are, the stronger the love is. I don't think thinking about love is enough...love must be shown through acts.
I realize that I don't actually "love" Dr. Bob. Obsession is the more appropriate word. My "love" for Dr. Bob is not characterized by caring acts. My love serves only one purpose, to make myself feel good. My "love" is a selfish act.
> > I know I write about myself and my problems a lot. I don't offer as much support as others here.
> I'm like that sometimes. And watch the people flee. Maybe it is because... I used to offer so much more... I did. And now... People want that back.I think that's a possibility, but I also think that your thinking and mood has changed quite a bit and it may be turning the world into a dark and unforgiving place for you. I could be wrong of course, maybe I am the one in the dark here...but my world is much brighter and pleasant to live in.
> They want that back. I think people would like it if there were people here who just went around helping others and being silent on themselves their own issues.
I agree. I think humans naturally want to shield ourselves from negative things. Sometimes help won't be given without asking. I think we all have to learn to accept that.
> I'm so sorry this has happened to me :-(
> I'm real scared.
> I'm sorry.You don't need to be sorry. This is how you feel. Your world has changed and this change is real. The things we feel are real to us. I'm scared for you too. I'm worried about you.
Deneb*
Posted by Estella on May 7, 2006, at 2:30:33
In reply to Re: Estella » Estella, posted by Deneb on May 7, 2006, at 1:01:03
> I think I have this problem a lot of the time...being oblivious to others problems. I'm sorry if I haven't supported you as much as you've supported me.
You are okay. I'm sorry. I'm feeling a lot calmer now... Feeling a lot calmer. I'm sorry. You do help me. People here do. Maybe... My hurt got so bad I was the one who turned all selfish. That is probably right. And now I'm starting to feel all mad again thinking that people are going to get to thinking 'yup that is right and that is why you get blocked because you still just don't get it'. So... Lets not go there. I don't know what to say. Except that something snapped. And the hurts come up. And the rage comes up. And there aren't the words. There simply aren't the words. And I can hear CAT 'what do you expect us to do?'. And what do I want? What do I want? Because there isn't anything to be done. There isn't any thing that can turn back the clock. There isn't anything that can change the past. There isn't anything that can fix it. And what do you expect us to do? To understand? But what is the mark of understanding. F*cked if I know. All I know is that there isn't anything to be done. And all I know if that when that happens to me... When I feel like that... Then this isn't the place. But you know what? There isn't a place. There isn't a place for me. And there it is. Either pull myself together and solier on or... There is nothing to be done. And too many days... To many days off... And then something drastic needs to be done because there is nothing to be done. And I don't know what is up with me except deja vu... And how old am I? I don't know when it is. I get lost. And I don't know what to do. And there aren't the words there just aren't the words. And it is about understanding... But what good is that? It doesn't really fix it. There isn't anything to be done. And I don't know that there is any hope. I'm sorry.
> That is precisely why I don't believe in true altruism. I think we all *want* something for ourselves when we do altruistic things....whether it is for love or a feeling of self satisfaction, it is ultimately a selfish act. I think all acts are inherently selfish. There is no way around not thinking of one's self.I think one can transcend the problem.
Instead of it being egoism (selfishness) vs altruism (selflessness)... If one focuses on the interconnectedness... How each individual is connected and interconnected to their environment and other people in their environment... Then the distinction starts to dissolve. In order to truely care for yourself you need to appreciate that what you put out into the world will come back to you. So really caring for yourself involves caring for others. And in order to truely care for others you need to appreciate that you can't do that if you are collapsing yourself and so you need to care for yourself.And if things get messed up either way...
I guess one could describe that as selfishness
Though I prefer to describe it as shortsightedness
(In my better moments)
And people can be myopic...I'm sorry
Posted by Estella on May 7, 2006, at 2:46:01
In reply to Re: Estella » Estella, posted by Deneb on May 7, 2006, at 1:01:03
>> The danger in idealisation is that it tends to be followed by disillusionment and hostility and rage.
>I'll worry about that when it comes.
It isn't either / or.
It isn't about feeling good now vs not feeling good now.
I think it is just about trying to moderate those feelings so that the latter is less likely to happen. Or so that if it happens it is less likely to be so very intense.
Because the intensity of the latter... Can be truely horrible.
And so to find a middle ground...
Will be better for you in the long term
And better for Bob
And better for the boards
(Now I'll probably get blocked for that because Bob tends to think a *should* is implied by talking about certain states being *better*. But surely people can grant absence of pain is *better*. Oh yeah that's why it is *better* for the boards for me to be blocked...)>> A question I've been wanting to ask you is...
>> What is love?
>> What does 'love' mean to you?
>> There may well be different kinds of love. That is okay.> I really don't think I've ever experienced true love, whatever that means.
Lol. You need to fix the meaning BEFORE deciding whether you have had that or not ;-)
Seriously though... I wouldn't be so sure. I figure you loved hammie a whole heap. There are many different kinds of love IMO.> I think love is demonstrated through caring acts....caring and unselfish acts (as unselfish as acts can be). Caring acts make the person feel better. The more caring acts there are, the stronger the love is. I don't think thinking about love is enough...love must be shown through acts.
Yeah. Like if someone were to say 'I really want to get married' and then they don't get married despite an excellent opportunity. In that case we would conclude that they never really did want to get married.
If someone says they love you but just keep on hurting you... Then we may well conclude that they never really did love you.
But then sometimes people can be f*cked up...
And not really understand how to EXPRESS love appropriately. I dunno. It is a hard one.> I realize that I don't actually "love" Dr. Bob. Obsession is the more appropriate word. My "love" for Dr. Bob is not characterized by caring acts. My love serves only one purpose, to make myself feel good. My "love" is a selfish act.
Is it? You say nice things to him at times... Try to support him... Thinking about him makes you feel good... And you don't really seem to be under a big whopper of an illusion... I dunno. I dunno what love is supposed to be really. I think I have a lot of love for Babblers at times. I do. And I think... I do. Even though sometimes... I hurt. Yup.
> I also think that your thinking and mood has changed quite a bit and it may be turning the world into a dark and unforgiving place for you. I could be wrong of course, maybe I am the one in the dark here...but my world is much brighter and pleasant to live in.
Yeah. I have a dim recollection of that world... But I can't find it. I can't. Maybe I'm a little jealous that you have that. I'm sorry. I'm glad you have been feeling a lot happier. I wish I could muster that myself. I'm sorry.
> You don't need to be sorry. This is how you feel. Your world has changed and this change is real. The things we feel are real to us. I'm scared for you too. I'm worried about you.
Thanks. I think. I don't know. Now I'm worried about you feeling scared and worried about me. I guess its a good thing if you feel that a little but not a lot. I'm sorry.
Posted by Phillipa on May 7, 2006, at 12:39:30
In reply to Re: Estella, posted by Estella on May 7, 2006, at 2:46:01
Estella I will support you anytime. I like to try and help people. Sometimes I can and other times I can't and feel helpless don't like that. I've always felt good if I think I can help someone feel good. I realize that you can have mostly shortterm E-mail relationships with other babblers usually while both of you are trying to figure out a problem. I hate it when all the names change as I feel I've just gotten to know someone. But you know you can e-mail me anytime and I will support you to the best of my ability. I know I'm a lot older than you and certainly not as smart. Never could be. But believe it or not I am here for you. Just ask. I have reached out to you. I've E-mailed you maybe your address is different now. But I tried. I'm sorry you're in a bad place and unfortunately you live far away or I would be there in person for you. Love Phillipa
Posted by Deneb on May 7, 2006, at 15:16:26
In reply to Re: Estella, posted by Estella on May 7, 2006, at 2:46:01
> And so to find a middle ground...
> Will be better for you in the long term
> And better for Bob
> And better for the boardsI don't know if I will ever experience the rage and disillusionment. I can't really fathom that right now.
> Lol. You need to fix the meaning BEFORE deciding whether you have had that or not ;-)
> Seriously though... I wouldn't be so sure. I figure you loved hammie a whole heap. There are many different kinds of love IMO.I forgot about that love. :-) I did love Hammie. I cared for him and about him.
> Yeah. Like if someone were to say 'I really want to get married' and then they don't get married despite an excellent opportunity. In that case we would conclude that they never really did want to get married.
Yes, like that. It's not enough to say you love someone. You have to show it.
> But then sometimes people can be f*cked up...
> And not really understand how to EXPRESS love appropriately. I dunno. It is a hard one.That is a problem. The loved one wouldn't know she/he was loved.
> > I realize that I don't actually "love" Dr. Bob. Obsession is the more appropriate word. My "love" for Dr. Bob is not characterized by caring acts. My love serves only one purpose, to make myself feel good. My "love" is a selfish act.
>
> Is it? You say nice things to him at times... Try to support him... Thinking about him makes you feel good... And you don't really seem to be under a big whopper of an illusion...LOL. You know, just after I wrote that my love for Dr. Bob isn't real love, I questioned myself....because...because I do care about him. I worry about him when he's away for a long time. I made him a scarf...that's a caring act. I give him lots of cyber hugs to make him feel better. I think there is some love, but I also can't deny that there is an element of obsession to it.
>I dunno. I dunno what love is supposed to be really. I think I have a lot of love for Babblers at times. I do. And I think... I do. Even though sometimes... I hurt. Yup.
I think you have a love of love for babblers too.
> Yeah. I have a dim recollection of that world... But I can't find it. I can't. Maybe I'm a little jealous that you have that. I'm sorry. I'm glad you have been feeling a lot happier. I wish I could muster that myself. I'm sorry.
It's okay. I just wish I could give you some happiness.
> Thanks. I think. I don't know. Now I'm worried about you feeling scared and worried about me. I guess its a good thing if you feel that a little but not a lot. I'm sorry.
Don't be worried about me worrying about you. :-) There's enough worry for both of us already. LOL I have faith that you'll be able to find your way again. Nothing lasts forever. The hurt you feel will lessen.
Deneb*
Posted by Estella on May 8, 2006, at 7:39:53
In reply to Re: Estella » Estella, posted by Deneb on May 7, 2006, at 15:16:26
Minsky, Marvin, at the MIT Media Lab --
rough-draft chapters of The Emotion Machinehttp://web.media.mit.edu/~minsky/E1/eb1.html
wtf????
http://mind.sourceforge.net/emotion.html
Posted by Estella on May 8, 2006, at 9:41:47
In reply to Re: Estella » Estella, posted by Phillipa on May 7, 2006, at 12:39:30
Yeah. I know you guys care about me. And you have done a lot of reaching out to me. Both of you. I'm sorry I'm not so good at responding sometimes. Get wrapped up in myself. In my hurts. I'm sorry about that. I owe you guys a lot of Babblemails and emails. I'm sorry.
Sometimes... I just struggle with what to say. Hard to believe, huh. Sometimes torrents and torrents just pour out. But othertimes I just can't find words. Can't find the words.
I'm sorry.
You are very kindhearted and compassionate. A lesson to me. Both you you have been very kind to me. I'm not so good at showing it sometimes... But it means a lot. It does. It is just that sometimes I can be fairly blind. I'm truely sorry for that.
Posted by Estella on May 8, 2006, at 10:15:48
In reply to Re: Estella, posted by Estella on May 8, 2006, at 7:39:53
sorry about that... i didn't read it properly...
er...
not the minsky link (well he could be a crazy guy i have no idea) but the other link...
i was buzzing out on the diagrams... you can get to them off the page i linked to. sorry... i didn't scroll down to the bottom of the previous link (i'd be happy if someone deleted that link or could change it to this one) sorry :-(
Posted by Phillipa on May 8, 2006, at 20:58:52
In reply to Phillip and Gnepig, posted by Estella on May 8, 2006, at 9:41:47
No need to apologize. I understand. Give yourself time and be kind to yourself. Love from both of us Love Phillipa
Posted by Estella on May 13, 2006, at 3:52:21
In reply to Re: Phillip and Gnepig » Estella, posted by Phillipa on May 8, 2006, at 20:58:52
> No need to apologize. I understand. Give yourself time and be kind to yourself. Love from both of us Love Phillipa
thanks.
you guys be kind to yourselves (and each other)
too:-)
This is the end of the thread.
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