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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 49 to 73 of 99. Go back in thread:
Posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 23:19:09
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger » verne, posted by Dinah on March 28, 2006, at 22:48:55
Really.
I didn't mean for anyone to feel hurt or accused or ashamed or anything like that.
Some things can be hard to admit to... I have lots of things like that. Things I'd never ever ever talk to anyone about IRL because I would feel such shame... And I have talked about a lot of stuff like that on the boards over the time I have been here. A lot of it... And typically other peoples responses to my disclosures have been helpful. Validating. I feel less alone with what I have shared. And I feel less ashamed with what I have shared. But othertimes... Well sometimes things don't go that way. I think it is because... Sometimes peoples sensitivities / issues clash.
With respect to this issue... I have talked about my feelings on it a couple of times now. Over on relationships. And one time things did go pretty badly and I think that someone I was talking to felt quite hurt by what I said. I didn't mean to hurt... I didn't (and this time around too) I didn't phrase things very well...
:-(
And I'm sorry for that.
I guess it is about clash of the issues.
For people who have been abused and treated like an object... I think it is fair to say that those are the people who typically have very strong feelings about pornography being (potentially) harmful.
For people who have been feeling ashamed about things... I think it is fair to say that those are the people who typically have very strong feelings about pornography being perfectly fine and normal or whatever.
And sometimes people need the former feeling validated...
And sometimes people need the latter feeling validated...I don't know.
I get to thinking about eating meat again...
Sigh.
I'm sorry for hurts... Never meant to hurt... But I was a little concerned about Milly.
But I didn't mean to do that at the expense of other peoples feelings.
I'm sorry.
I don't think Verne said anything wrong...
I'm sorry.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 28, 2006, at 23:46:53
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger » verne, posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 11:04:06
> really do you care when you are viewing those images?
Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to jump to conclusions about others or to post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down, could you please rephrase that?
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
One possibility is to ask another poster to be your "civility buddy" and preview posts before you submit them.
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by gabbi~1 on March 28, 2006, at 23:54:26
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger » Dinah, posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 22:20:45
I'm surprised at the idea of sex without love being somehow.. wrong, or less worthy.
The idea of two people being together being the most acceptable form of "coupling" is more of an artificial invention than depictions of people having sex in various different ways.
Women have always been sexual creatures, that's part of the reason the more recent religions put them in generally virginal or asexual positions.
It was the fear of their sexuality.
that restraint of sexuality, the ideals put on it even with different wording, and different rationale, no different than the religious right.I find it contradictory to dislike the idea of men "J*acking off" to a picture, and then ask a man if it's "okay" or if he would be "proud" if his daughter, or sister was doing it.
Where's the woman in this? It seems the man's opinion is the important one.. the same men who are doing the "óbjectifying"Men will always "J*ck" off thinking about attractive women, it's existed since the Sears Catalogue had corset ads, and well obviously long before that. "Pornography" existed on cave walls.
It's healthy, it's normal, and hey, it's enjoyable.Now You've said "You don't know what her goals are, her ideals, her personality"
Well, neither do you, and you don't know whether or not she's completely satisfied with what she's doing.I resent someone else deciding what sex should be, what the higher form is.
Yes, the sex industry is fraught with abuse, and depersonalization.
So is Ballet, so are sports. It's not about the sex, it's about those with power using people to get ahead.
Making it about female/male sexuality, is just another form of repression.I've been through the cycle of abuse. I don't find pornography a trigger any more than I find any sex a trigger. Depictions of violence and rape are a different thing.
It's sex.
It's not always about roses and champagne, nor do I think it should be.
And yes some women *do* like that "sort of thing"
Posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 23:55:57
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » special_k, posted by Dr. Bob on March 28, 2006, at 23:46:53
I think I would rather just take it back than rephrase...
I guess regarding a rephrase...
> > really do you care when you are viewing those images?
> Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to jump to conclusions about others or to post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down, could you please rephrase that?Er... I guess my thought was that when people view then they don't really think about whether the people they are viewing are really okay with having their image recorded and used for those purposes. I guess my thought was that people don't think about it because if you really did get to thinking about maybe the person really isn't happy with it that maybe they had been coerced or needed to raise money for a sick kid and / or regretted it in hindsight... Well i guess i think that if those thoughts really occured to people... then they wouldn't view porn. but maybe they do think about those things (as real possibilities rather than just as thoughts i guess)... they do consider that... and they just don't care. i don't know. i dont' know what to say.
i'm sorry.
i didnt' mean to hurt anyone. but yeah that is what i think... that people don't really consider the possible harm. otherwise...i don't know.
maybe people dont' think it is a real possibility that the person in the pic is harmed by the knowledge that other people are viewing them in that way...
i don't know what to say...
Posted by spriggy on March 29, 2006, at 0:17:37
In reply to Re: please rephrase that, posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 23:55:57
Mind you, I'm a Christian and totally/completely/utterly opposed to porn in any and every fashion and sense of the word...
But, I would just like to say that my husband (who is a pastor and Christian counselor) has counseled more men where porn has literally destroyed their lives' and marriages'.
It has hindered their relationship with God, their wives', their children, and eventually even themselves.
I think it is an epidemic in our culture (sadly, even in the church) and it is destroying our marriages, our children, and can lead to all sorts of other sin's.
I heard Ted Bundy share his story of how he became a murderer of women... guess how it began? It began with an interest in porn that after years could no longer feed his ever growing need and addiction for "more".
It's dangerous, and it destroys.
Posted by gabbi~1 on March 29, 2006, at 0:28:44
In reply to the BIG *HUGE* deal with PORN.., posted by spriggy on March 29, 2006, at 0:17:37
I wonder how many lives have been literally destroyed in the name of God.
The means is not the cause.
Posted by verne on March 29, 2006, at 1:13:56
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger » special_k, posted by gabbi~1 on March 28, 2006, at 23:54:26
I love you.
You preach to me and this here choir I keep in the closet. Yes, even the choir loves you.
i just want to quack or something.
verne
Posted by verne on March 29, 2006, at 1:22:53
In reply to Re: the BIG *HUGE* deal with PORN.. » spriggy, posted by gabbi~1 on March 29, 2006, at 0:28:44
Ted Bundy - 29
Crusaders - 1,000,000,000
I'm a christian, baptized in the Spirit. At the very bottom of my list of things that need changing is worring about how dressed somebody is!
love always,
verne
Posted by verne on March 29, 2006, at 2:10:54
In reply to the BIG *HUGE* deal with PORN.., posted by spriggy on March 29, 2006, at 0:17:37
How many "spirit-filled" pastors and pastor wives go beserk and go on a murder spree?
What fruit of the Spirit is that?
verne - christian, touched by God, reborn in the Spirit, growing.
Posted by verne on March 29, 2006, at 2:21:29
In reply to Re: the BIG *HUGE* deal with PORN.., posted by verne on March 29, 2006, at 2:10:54
and the church rallies around the murderer! The BTK KILLER, an adept serial killer, a mass murderer, was a CHRISTIAN. The church rallied around him, showering him with forgiveness, as they do the Pastor Winkler killer.
Don't talk about Bundy unless you're willing to embrace all the other "christian" mass murderers.
verne
Posted by verne on March 29, 2006, at 2:29:54
In reply to Bundy, posted by verne on March 29, 2006, at 2:21:29
Posted by special_k on March 29, 2006, at 3:25:05
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger » special_k, posted by gabbi~1 on March 28, 2006, at 23:54:26
> I'm surprised at the idea of sex without love being somehow.. wrong, or less worthy.
Sex that is not loving. It was more about that.
Objectification vs an act of kindness / lovingness.
> The idea of two people being together being the most acceptable form of "coupling" is more of an artificial invention than depictions of people having sex in various different ways.If it can be an activity between two subjects I don't see why it couldn't be an activity between three or four or whatever...
> I find it contradictory to dislike the idea of men "J*acking off" to a picture, and then ask a man if it's "okay" or if he would be "proud" if his daughter, or sister was doing it.If he would be "okay" or "proud" that other men were "j*cking off" to pictures of his daughter or sister etc.
Some women say they like to be treated as objects.
But then... Some women don't know any different...> Men will always "J*ck" off thinking about attractive women
I think thinking about is different from viewing pictures...
> Now You've said "You don't know what her goals are, her ideals, her personality"
> Well, neither do you, and you don't know whether or not she's completely satisfied with what she's doing.Sure. Would you pose for other people Gabbi? How about you other women who don't have a problem with porn? Why not?
> Making it about female/male sexuality, is just another form of repression.
The sex industry is about sex...
Posted by special_k on March 29, 2006, at 3:27:01
In reply to Re: please rephrase that, posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 23:55:57
> maybe people dont' think it is a real possibility that the person in the pic is harmed by the knowledge that other people are viewing them in that way...
but then for you women who wouldn't pose...
or be videotaped...why not?
Posted by gabbi~1 on March 29, 2006, at 4:14:28
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger, posted by special_k on March 29, 2006, at 3:25:05
So you think it's different thinking about how someone looks, rather than looking at a picture of someone *You* think. I think that's splitting hairs, and trying to stretch that into a realistic argument for the acceptable/unacceptable, is well..
impossible.
> Sure. Would you pose for other people Gabbi? How about you other women who don't have a problem with porn? Why not?
>I have and I would again.
Interesting that your question was phrased "why not?"> > Making it about female/male sexuality, is just another form of repression.
>
> The sex industry is about sex...The sex industry is about making money.
Posted by special_k on March 29, 2006, at 4:35:45
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger » special_k, posted by gabbi~1 on March 29, 2006, at 4:14:28
> Would you pose for other people Gabbi?
> I have and I would again.
For your partner... Or for public consumption (so that you wouldn't have minded if the picture was duplicated and passed on to other people)
Posted by special_k on March 29, 2006, at 4:43:31
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger » special_k, posted by gabbi~1 on March 29, 2006, at 4:14:28
actually don't worry about it.
i dont' want to argue
Posted by milly on March 29, 2006, at 7:06:17
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger, posted by special_k on March 29, 2006, at 4:43:31
I'm sorry I even bothered to tell you about it, I feel so upset that I inadvertantly caused this anger and hurt
I guess the rape does cloud my view of it, knowing that he 'objectified' women and then found it acceptable to force his way into my home and into me probably makes me hope that the same situation won't happen to others but it does.
As for needing porn to j*rk off to, do you need it to go for a cr*p as well? or maybe just a better imagination!
Anyway if anyone is interested the UK papers carried the story this weekend about how newsagents will be required to stock this kind of material above childrens eye level which if you read my original post was what had got me annoyed in the first place, so I'm not the only one that thinks it is unnessesary to expose children to this.
I thought I was behaving as any mother might to protect her children but was I supposed to say 'look at that, maybe one day you could grow up and do that so that men can j*rk off to your picture'
milly
Posted by gabbi~1 on March 29, 2006, at 8:45:42
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger, posted by special_k on March 29, 2006, at 4:43:31
All You had to do was read my earlier posts on the subject.
Posted by Dinah on March 29, 2006, at 10:04:29
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger » special_k, posted by gabbi~1 on March 28, 2006, at 23:54:26
Thanks Gabbi.
You managed to say what I tried several times to say, without being able to find the words.
Part of my brand of feminism includes not seeing women as helpless victims in things like this. Celebrities pose nude all the time, and I doubt they were forced to. Clearly some women enjoy their bodies and don't mind having them photographed.
It certainly isn't universally considered a shameful thing. Some people would find it something to admire.
Posted by Dinah on March 29, 2006, at 10:15:38
In reply to Re Hi I'm really upset poss trigger, posted by milly on March 29, 2006, at 7:06:17
Milly, nothing I said means that I don't think magazines shouldn't be left uncovered at eye level. I think it's either a law in my area, or else stores are sensitive to the issue, because they're always partially covered and up high. I wouldn't like it if I were confronted with magazines at eye level with my son. There's a time and place for everything.
I'm sorry that you had such an awful experience that was associated in your mind with the viewing of pornography. I can understand that it's a sensitive issue to you.
But I'm sure you know that a fairly large percentage of the male population enjoys visual depictions of naked women. And that most of them are perfectly nice people who just appreciate the female form. I think it would be hard to find a guy who hadn't at one time or another enjoyed an issue of Playgirl.
Posted by Dinah on March 29, 2006, at 10:30:26
In reply to the BIG *HUGE* deal with PORN.., posted by spriggy on March 29, 2006, at 0:17:37
I'm sure you've also had experience in marriages where spending destroyed a marriage, workaholism destroyed a marriage, alchoholism destroyed a marriage, etc.
Most anything, done to excess, can harm a family.
Ted Bundy was hardly an average user of typical porn. He can come up with whatever excuse he wants in retrospect. But the fact was that he was a killer. He liked killing, he got off on killing. It's a big leap from enjoying looking at naked bodies and enjoying killing. Now, since he had that sort of predilictions, he may have been involved with violent porn. That's a different thing entirely.
Posted by Tamar on March 29, 2006, at 10:36:50
In reply to Re Hi I'm really upset poss trigger, posted by milly on March 29, 2006, at 7:06:17
> I'm sorry I even bothered to tell you about it, I feel so upset that I inadvertantly caused this anger and hurt
You didn't cause any anger and hurt. It's just a very emotive subject. And I'm glad you told us about it. I think what you did was very brave and very necessary.
> I guess the rape does cloud my view of it, knowing that he 'objectified' women and then found it acceptable to force his way into my home and into me probably makes me hope that the same situation won't happen to others but it does.
Well, maybe it *informs* your view of it, rather than *clouding* your view. And of course your view is perfectly valid.
> As for needing porn to j*rk off to, do you need it to go for a cr*p as well? or maybe just a better imagination!
I'm all for use of imagination!
> Anyway if anyone is interested the UK papers carried the story this weekend about how newsagents will be required to stock this kind of material above childrens eye level which if you read my original post was what had got me annoyed in the first place, so I'm not the only one that thinks it is unnessesary to expose children to this.
I totally agree with you. I believe children should not be exposed to porn. End of story. If an adult deliberately shows a child a porn mag, it constitutes child sexual abuse. So I certainly don't think it's OK for newsagents to stock porn at children's eye level.
> I thought I was behaving as any mother might to protect her children but was I supposed to say 'look at that, maybe one day you could grow up and do that so that men can j*rk off to your picture'
If you're anything like me, the idea of your kids being part of the sex industry is very triggering because of your personal experience. I also wonder (if you're anything like me) whether as well as wanting to protect your children you want to protect yourself.
I find public porn very threatening. To me if a man reads porn in public it's in the same category as flashing. I think, "If he'll read porn in public, what wouldn't he do?" And by extension, seeing porn in shops elicits the same feelings of fear. I wonder which unknown men might be planning to buy those magazines, and whether I'm safe from them. Because after an assault you realise you just NEVER know who the good guys are and who the bad guys are. The men who raped me were nice, decent people who (apart from raping me) were charming and polite. How was I supposed to know? How do I know whether the next man I talk to is a rapist? I don’t.
And I don’t want to demonise all men, but I think men don’t always understand that however nice they are, and however much they know *they* would never rape a woman, once we’ve been violated we no longer trust our judgement to be able to distinguish between rapists and non-rapists. And naturally enough, men feel very hurt by the idea that we can’t be 100% certain that they’re not rapists.
Thanks for raising the subject, Milly. I know the subsequent discussion has been painful for you. I don’t hold the view that porn is inherently bad, but I certainly haven’t seen much that I like. And I’m going to rant about that next. Feel free to ignore it if the subject’s getting tough for you. But I hope you will congratulate yourself for your courage and strength of character in expressing your views in public, both at your local newsagent and here at Babble.
Tamar
Posted by Dinah on March 29, 2006, at 10:37:28
In reply to Re: Re Hi I'm really upset poss trigger » milly, posted by Dinah on March 29, 2006, at 10:15:38
Posted by Tamar on March 29, 2006, at 10:51:20
In reply to (((((Milly))))) *****trigger***** » milly, posted by Tamar on March 29, 2006, at 10:36:50
Yeah, well, no one expected me to be able to stay away from this thread, surely? :)
I’ll put my cards on the table first:
1. I have been raped and sexually assaulted on several occasions by various people, including friends and people in positions of authority in my life. These experiences have coloured my views of sexual politics.
2. When I look at porn I find it intensely arousing. My response is both biological and psychological.
3. I did not learn to masturbate until I’d been sexually active for five years (and after the rape and three of the sexual assaults). I chose quite deliberately to try to learn to do it in an attempt to reclaim my body and my sexuality for myself. I didn’t use porn because I felt that the sexual assaults had made me an object and when I looked at porn I felt uncomfortable with viewing other women or men as objects of my pleasure.
4. I have a professional interest in how sexuality is depicted and portrayed in popular culture.So now you know where I’m coming from. And here are my thoughts about porn:
1. Many people enjoy looking at other people naked, especially when the context is sexualised. I don’t believe there’s anything inherently wrong in seeking the pleasure we can find in admiring another person’s body, as long as we are not harming the other person in any way.
2. I believe masturbation is beautiful and important, and while I don’t think porn is necessary for a healthy solo sex life, I don’t think it’s a bad thing. I certainly don’t think I’m in a position to judge other people for their use of porn. After all, I find it arousing too.Having said that:
1. Porn is a multimillion dollar enterprise. It makes more money than all of Hollywood and all of rock music put together. Despite this, it usually has poor production values and is of generally poor quality. And the money does not line the pockets of the actors and actresses: the real money is in the hands of the producers.
2. Porn is ubiquitous. Its influence is enormous. It is widely considered acceptable nowadays, in contrast to previous generations. It plays a powerful role in western culture.
3. Masturbation was once considered profoundly unhealthy, but these days the medical world is inclined to suggest that in fact masturbation is good for us. The acceptability of porn has arisen in tandem with the acceptability of masturbation and also with an increasing sense of the individual’s right to sexual self-determination.
4. Studies about links between porn and sexual violence have not yet proved conclusive, though there does seem to be some evidence to suggest that consuming large quantities of violent porn is associated with violent behaviour. But it’s hard to know which is the chicken and which is the egg.
5. Much of the imagery used in porn emphasises power imbalances between men and women. (I’m not going to talk here about gay porn because I’m mainly interested in the influence porn has in culture and society, and gay/lesbian porn is much less mainstream. Oh, and when I say lesbian porn, I don’t mean the ‘girl-on-girl action’ which is aimed at straight people. I mean lesbian porn produced by and for lesbians.)
6. In most TV, magazine and film porn it is difficult to find images that adequately convey a mutually pleasurable and enriching experience. Part of the reason for this is the legal restrictions against depicting an erect penis. Another reason is that a great deal of porn depicts situations in which women are vulnerable and depend on men either for rescue or for validation.
7. Internet porn bypasses the difficulties of showing an erect penis, but unfortunately tends to depict situations in which women are ‘bitches’ or ‘sluts’ who are tricked by men into sexual contact they don’t want but which they ultimately experience as orgasmic because deep down they desire to be dominated. This is, of course, the semiotics of sexual assault dressed up as a borderline SM fantasy. And I’m disturbed at how this intersects with people’s real life experiences, because however we understand issues of freedom of choice, it seems to me that the women who work in porn are not likely to have had as much choice, advantage or privilege as women who work in careers which pay at a similar level.
8. If porn is widely consumed and widely considered acceptable, its influence should not be underestimated. My concern is not so much whether porn engenders a lack of respect for women, but whether it serves to reinforce the already massive gender inequalities in society (and of course, racial inequalities, because race often plays an important role in porn), and to sexualise those inequalities.
9. Porn not only depicts women as vulnerable, it also frequently depicts men as aggressive, out of control, dangerous, insensitive and preoccupied only with their own gratification. If I am concerned about the effect that viewing porn has on men’s view of women, I am also concerned about the effect it has on men’s view of themselves (and for that matter on the way women view men, since women use porn too).
10. Most mature and responsible adults can use porn without becoming monsters, and can leave the images aside when they’re finished with them. But the images adults use are also the images children use. The only arousing material available to children (I mean kids in their early teens) is material designed for adults. I really think that teenagers are at genuine risk from porn, because they’re still trying to make sense of their new feelings and bodily experiences and the adult world. I think the images used in most pornography are not suitable for kids, in the same way that films made for adults contain images of sex and violence that aren’t suitable for kids. The difference is that there’s a healthy children’s cinema but there’s no healthy teenage alternative to adult porn. If you’re shouting at your computer right now, I’ve probably touched on something very sensitive. And I should say that I’m not advocating porn for children, but I *am* saying that we shouldn’t ignore the fact that many children use porn or encounter porn, and I think it’s genuinely unhelpful for them.My solution (because I like to set the world to rights):
1. We need better porn. It should be produced to better production values and there should be more variety. I don’t want to see a man ejaculate on a woman’s breasts after every sexual encounter. If my sex life were like that I’d have stopped bothering years ago. We need funny porn, nostalgic porn, poignant porn, gritty porn, gentle porn, ironic porn and educational porn. We need a lot more vanilla porn.
2. We need to find ways of engaging fantasies about life rather than fantasies about death. So much porn is predicated on the idea of the sex war. I’d like to see porn that reflects the tenderness of sexual experience, whether in a casual encounter or in a 50-year marriage.
3. We need porn that’s less disposable: porn that we can watch over and over and still enjoy. Sometimes I get the impression that men (and possibly women) use porn as a means of reaching orgasm as fast as possible, and as soon as it’s over it’s time to clean up and hide the magazine back under the bed as if the images in the fantasy didn’t belong in our regular lives. Wouldn’t it be nicer to use porn as a means of increasing and sustaining pleasure, rather than getting it over as quickly as possible?
4. I don’t think it would take much imagination to make porn that affirms women and men as equals, or that affirms sexuality as a source of comfort and safety. Of course, many people have fantasies about domination or submission, or about dangerous sex, but I struggle to see why those particular fantasies have to be so very widespread. Again, I’d like to see more variety.
5. I’m going to end with an example, and it could be rather transgressive, but I hope no one will find it actually offensive. In my professional life I have encountered a great deal of interracial porn and I find it overwhelmingly disturbing. It’s often presented either as a white man’s fantasy of his wife being overpowered by a dangerous black man, or as a white man’s fantasy of overpowering an exotic foreign woman. I find it disturbing not only for political reasons, but also for personal reasons because I have had lovers who weren’t the same race as me and I hate to see the way people from ethnic minorities are objectified in porn. I feel it pollutes my memories of my own experience. For example, I spent only one night with my friend F, but I remember that it looked beautiful: the contrast between very dark skin and very pale skin emphasised the lines and curves our bodies made together. And when I see that same contrast used as a means of emphasising images of physical, psychological or political violence, it sickens me.Bring on the beauty.
Tamar
Posted by Dinah on March 29, 2006, at 11:02:30
In reply to Very long rant!, posted by Tamar on March 29, 2006, at 10:51:20
I don't disagree with you.
Except to say that I've either been quite lucky or quite careful in choosing what I've seen. I've certainly never seen anything violent, and I don't think I've ever seen anything where the women and men weren't depicted as consenting adults who enjoyed what they were doing. I'm pretty sure I'd walk away from anything else.
And while I wouldn't raise a brow if I found Playgirls in my son's room when he's a bit older (he still thinks girls have cooties), I would have a serious talk with him if I found him viewing images or listening to music where women are treated with disrespect.
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