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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Susan47 on April 12, 2005, at 11:53:21
This time, I know what to say. Because I have been so close to where you are now. Take heart. Listen to your heart, Sunny, because although it feels broken, it knows you still are worthy of great love, great Being ... you are greater than the most wicked thing that's been done to you. This was not your fault, and you can and most certainly will overcome, because you have friends who love you.
Posted by Damos on April 12, 2005, at 17:18:54
In reply to Sunny, posted by Susan47 on April 12, 2005, at 11:53:21
Ditto everything Susan said. We love you Sunny, now and always.
Posted by sunny10 on April 13, 2005, at 10:24:09
In reply to Re: ((((((((((Sunny)))))))))), posted by Damos on April 12, 2005, at 17:18:54
thanks... wish I could come live with you guys....
maybe you could keep handing over the tissues??
Posted by Susan47 on April 13, 2005, at 10:35:48
In reply to Re: ((((((((((Sunny)))))))))), posted by sunny10 on April 13, 2005, at 10:24:09
hi sweetie I'm so glad you're here with us today. Keep making calls for an apartment even if you don't get any replies, remember persistence even when discouraged, persistence can pay off. Tell as many people as you can who you think will be sympathetic. This isn't your failure, it is NOT, it is your circumstance only at this time, all of us here have had stuff like this happen at some time, and remember that there are big hearted people right where you live, right now, you just haven't made their acquaintance yet .. like us, you know. We are here for you, as much as any of us can be. We're real people and I for one, care very deeply.
Posted by sunny10 on April 13, 2005, at 11:56:31
In reply to Re: ((((((((((Sunny)))))))))), posted by Susan47 on April 13, 2005, at 10:35:48
I just got the call- I got approved! I am no longer homeless as of Saturday.... sure, my furniture and kitchen stuff still has to be removed from the house, but at least now I know where I "live"...
Now, to find out how much it will cost to get out of the old lease...And, of course, last will be trying to figure out why I am always stupid...
My SO just called as I was writing this... he is finally admitting how wrong he was. He wants to live separately (because he knows we both need that), but is willing to go to couples counselling...he admitted to used the wrong approaches in his anger. He admitted that we BOTH have issues, not just me.
I love him- I want to believe him. What do you guys think about living separately and going to counselling to see if we have any kind of future (with him non-violent, of course)????
Please respond- I need a lot of advice.....
Posted by Susan47 on April 13, 2005, at 12:18:13
In reply to Re: ((((((((((Susan47)))))))))), posted by sunny10 on April 13, 2005, at 11:56:31
Wonderful what can happen overnight, isn't it? I'm happy for you Sunny. Now what harm could there be in him starting on his own therapy before you go to counselling? Is he rushing this? Because if he is, No, don't do it.
Posted by sunny10 on April 13, 2005, at 13:09:06
In reply to Re: ((((((((((Susan47)))))))))), posted by Susan47 on April 13, 2005, at 12:18:13
truth is, I told you that I wasn't returning his calls because he sounded so cold and businesslike.
I finally got the courage to reply to an email his mom sent me this morning explaining WHY I wasn't returning those calls. That it hurt me so much that he could just leave those messages like it had only ever been a business partnership- with no emotion whatsoever. Listening to them made me cry- I couldn't imagine hearing him like that while speaking to him. And the fact that he didn't apologize at all or admit that there was a problem with alcohol (and anger, but I can only expect so much)- or SOMETHING, anything. I told her that she could print it and give it to him if he wanted to know what I was thinking and how I was feeling.
He called me about an hour later. She had given him the email. He told me that he was crying all the time, too- especially in the house; he left it last night for good and is living at his mom's because he was too sad there. He apologized for not telling me he loves me, for hurting me and scaring me, even for leaving messages that sounded so cold. He said he hadn't known what to think or how to act, either. He agreed with the lease termination because living together is not a good idea at the moment for either of us. He admitted that he realizes that alcohol was a huge part of the problem and that even though we were pushing each others' buttons, he should never have made it a physical attack. He said that I could never know how ashamed he was that it had happened. He said he is not drinking at all. (I have seen for myself that he is perfectly capable of having a few- it's when he gives himslf permission to "make it a drinking night" that he gets out of control. I don't really expect him to give up having a couple of drinks every now and then; but I wasn't silly enough to tell him that!)
And he said that he wanted to give couples counselling and/or individual counselling a try because he didn't want to lose what is good about "us". That he had never been so upset about a relationship ending and that he really thought that we had a chance to make it work out in the long run.I can't say that he is "rushing things" like you ask. He could have been speaking "off the cuff"- having read my email, but I have to wonder if he has been thinking all of that since Saturday morning. I know that I was thinking that since it happened- which, of course, is why I was so devastated that he wasn't saying anything personal at all...and that was feeding my fear.
I know that the general adrenaline "fear flight" shakiness and feeling that he would shoot me is dissipating now that I have heard his tone of voice and heard the words. The previous coldness in his voice is what had terrified me in the first place. The "sorry" words wouldn't have been enough, but I could hear the tears in his voice, too, and it no longer feels like he wants to kill me. And I no longer feel as stupid. Even if whatever happens next doesn't end up with us together- at least now I know that I didn't fall in love with someone who didn't love me back. Sometimes love isn't enough for the long haul- but at least I can comfort myself in the knowledge that I was loving blindly again.
What's your opinion?
Posted by Tamar on April 13, 2005, at 14:13:22
In reply to Re: ((((((((((Susan47)))))))))), posted by sunny10 on April 13, 2005, at 13:09:06
(((((Sunny)))))This must be very difficult for you. It’s hard to know what to do for the best.
I’ve had some professional experience of working with women whose husbands hit them, and I’ve also had personal experience of domestic violence. Unfortunately, it seems that one episode of violence leads inevitably to another. There’s a common pattern: after the first episode of violence, the violent partner is very sorry indeed, but being sorry doesn’t prevent another violent incident. The violence happens again, and again, despite the promises that it will stop. And eventually the violent partner stops apologising and starts blaming the abused partner for the abuse, and the abused partner feels ashamed and guilty and too insecure to leave... I’m sure you’ve heard similar stories.
I would strongly suggest that living separately is a good idea at the moment. I think couples counselling is also a good idea, but I think that he will need to do individual therapy or counselling if he wants to overcome his violent behaviour. It is a good sign that he acknowledges his alcohol problem and his violence – he can only change his behaviour if he acknowledges it honestly. But that is only the first step.
I think you are right – love is not enough for the long haul. But if he does love you, he will invest every effort in trying to change his behaviour and then he will be able to treat you with the respect you deserve. And maybe that will be enough for the long haul.
I hope things will begin to get better for you soon.
Tamar
Posted by sunny10 on April 13, 2005, at 14:49:18
In reply to Re: ((((((((((Susan47)))))))))) » sunny10, posted by Tamar on April 13, 2005, at 14:13:22
yes, I have heard all these things and more myself which is why, although I am no longer frightened out of my wits at the moment, I am still filled with trepidation.
We will see what happens when I propose that we both go to anger management classes/therapy- alone or together. We are both equally guilty of pushing each other's buttons, the only difference is that I do not become violent...I become scared and run like h*ll the other way... far away. Usually, I don't give the other person a chance to even explain. I'm learning to give others a chance, but he has to learn not to need this particular type of second chance- there won't be another.
I have already decided not to become a victim of physical abuse. We will not live together. Not during dealing with our own issues or with our issues together. We may never live together again.
One day at a time....
Posted by gardenergirl on April 13, 2005, at 15:57:54
In reply to Re: Tamar, posted by sunny10 on April 13, 2005, at 14:49:18
Glad to hear you got a lease. That will take some stress off. And okay, I don't usually give advice. I tend to ask a lot of questions and then let folks decide for themselves. For whatever reason, I'm breaking my rules today. :)
Regarding counselling and such...I do think that change is possible after a traumatic event. But I also think that fear can make us say things in the moment that we are not able to follow through on. My advice is to just take things very slowly. It sounds like you do love him, but you also do not want to go through that again. That's wise.
I think living separately and working separately on your own issues, while perhaps remaining in contact on some safe level is a good idea. But I think that he needs to earn your trust again, and that will take some time. Couples counselling is not a bad idea, but again, he needs to commit to it. Think about how you feel in both scenarios: if he begins individual therapy and drops out, or if you begin couples therapy and he drops out. Which scenario would be more stressful? And I'm not saying he IS going to drop out. I guess I'm just looking at how to minimize your stress right now, as it seems like it's at a super high level.
I guess the bottom line message I have is just go slow, and like you said, one day at a time.
Hang in there, sweetie.
gg
Posted by Tamar on April 13, 2005, at 17:42:57
In reply to Re: Tamar, posted by sunny10 on April 13, 2005, at 14:49:18
> yes, I have heard all these things and more myself which is why, although I am no longer frightened out of my wits at the moment, I am still filled with trepidation.
I can imagine.
> I'm learning to give others a chance, but he has to learn not to need this particular type of second chance- there won't be another.
Exactly.
> I have already decided not to become a victim of physical abuse. We will not live together.I'm glad to hear you have made that decision. You are very courageous. I hope he understands it as an oportunity to learn to hang onto what is valuable to him.
> One day at a time....
That's the only way to do it.
((((Sunny))))
Posted by sunny10 on April 14, 2005, at 8:57:11
In reply to Re: Tamar » sunny10, posted by Tamar on April 13, 2005, at 17:42:57
either he feels "we" are worth the work or he doesn't...
and, gg, I will be devastated whether he quits individual counselling or couples counselling...
Let's be completely honest here- I know that there is a HUGE chance that none of what he says will actually occur. I realize very well (hence the fear and anxiety) that he may crush my heart all over again. But to not be brave enough to give him a chance to make good on his promises means that I have not managed to grow in my 20 yrs of off and on therapy.
I went to therapy because I freak out, run away, hide, isolate, and become suicidal when I am afraid because my father emotionally and physically abused me when I was growing up. I am perpetually stuck in the reactions of a 9 yr old girl whose father is three times bigger and hurts me.
So my usual response is fear- nowhere to go (depression crashes in and takes my options away)- so I attempt suicide- and never see/live with that person who hurt me/scared me again after getting out of the mental health facility. I never gave a second chance- even if I was wrong, too.
This time, when a silly argument turned into him grabbing my by the neck from behind(like one of those wrestling holds- left arm squeezed around my neck, using the right hand to squeeze it tighter) and I started getting those little white lights dancing around the edges of my vision, I was scared. But I managed to rationally suggest switching rooms with his friend (who had met us there and was in a single)- my suggestion was rejected. I went to the hotel lobby and politely requested that the night bellhop call me a taxi to the airport. I got to the airport and it was closed (did anyone else know that the airport closes until 5:00 am in New Orleans?). I managed to find the customer service number for the airline. I switched my flight to the first flight time on my cell phone. I sat up all night in an uncomfortable chair, waiting for 7:00 am when the plane would take me home.
Okay, so I was in shock; shaking, exhausted, crying, and panicking that he would "come get me" while I was waiting through the night... I was so scared that I became absolutely convinced that he would be even more enraged that I left (making him look bad in front of his friend) and that he would follow me home and use his gun to kill me. His mother called me the following morning (he had not attempted to do so). She told me that he told her that I "just freaked out while we were having an argument and left." That he didn't know where I was, that he was scared that something might have happened to me... blah, blah, blah...basically he was giving her the "we all know she's been crazy before- now she's gone and done it again" routine. But I managed to keep myself safe and do what I had to do without a suicide attempt. I have learned SOMETHING.
I would like to think that I, too, can go to anger management classes and learn how to effectively manage my anger (stop stuffing it way down inside until it just erupts and the arguments become every little thing this person has done to me EVER... I know that I push a lot of buttons doing this.) I am not for ONE SECOND taking any blame for someone else resorting to violence whether or not I pushed their buttons. I was wrong- not coming to a complete stop at a stop sign kind of wrong.... He was drunk driving and killing a bus of school children wrong!
So there you have it... yes, I am aware that I may be hurt again- in terms of heartache. But there's always that chance, isn't there? That's the real lesson that I have to improve my grade on... that life is never sure... that a little fear is sometimes healthy (and to listen to it, but rationally). And I am well aware that I am able to be this calm right now because I don't happen to be in an active Major Depressive cycle at the moment- and getting approved for the new apartment doesn't hurt, either!!!
As I said... either "we" are worth it or we're not. And when it gets hard, we'll see what wins out- pride or love. Because that's what working as a couple comes down to; compromise. We'll see if the love is strong enough for some compromises...
Posted by Susan47 on April 14, 2005, at 10:18:24
In reply to Re: Tamar and GG (long), posted by sunny10 on April 14, 2005, at 8:57:11
Take this and laugh, okay because it's meant to be funny even if it's sad were it true, and I know you're thinking the same thing .. I don't know if you're brave or stupid ... but I'm on your side no matter what happens.
Posted by sunny10 on April 14, 2005, at 10:40:12
In reply to Sunny, posted by Susan47 on April 14, 2005, at 10:18:24
I know exactly how you meant that, and the sentiment is very well received...
I am well aware of how stupid I can be.....I figured, "let's see if I can give "brave" a shot"... at least then maybe I'll know if I can be both!!!!!!
I love you, hon.... it may be a cynical laugh, but you made me laugh jsut the same...
Posted by Susan47 on April 14, 2005, at 13:29:25
In reply to Re: Susan47, posted by sunny10 on April 14, 2005, at 10:40:12
Yes you can be brave and stupid at the same time. But I really believe that is okay, because if we look back later and say, that Sunny's faith was stupid, that means something else made it seem that way, because how can faith itself, the energy of faith, be stupid? That's ridiculous. So your faith in SO's love for you and love for himself and desire for life, is just beautiful, pure energy. And if he sullies that in our eyes afterwards, so that we say, well, that was just stupid of Sunny, then we're casting our own shadow on the pure energy of faith. Which is wrong. So you could only be "stupid" in judgemental hindsight .. which is NOT a good use of energy ...
In reality, you're brave and full of faith and hope in life, Sunny.
Posted by AuntieMel on April 14, 2005, at 13:57:42
In reply to Re: ((((((((((Susan47)))))))))), posted by sunny10 on April 13, 2005, at 13:09:06
"(I have seen for myself that he is perfectly capable of having a few- it's when he gives himslf permission to "make it a drinking night" that he gets out of control. I don't really expect him to give up having a couple of drinks every now and then; but I wasn't silly enough to tell him that!)"
From a person painfully familiar with addiction, I'm hearing something dangerous here.
Boundaries is boundaries. If he has a true coke addiction it is *not* ok for him to have a couple of drinks occasionally.
He may be able to just have a few when he's not coked up, but if he quits drugs then drinking is the next worse thing. I've seen this so many times I know it to be true. A person gives up coke and is doing beautifull for several months and then decides it is ok to have a glass of wine with dinner. The wine lowers the will power and it is almost guaranteed that person will be out drugging again.
I'm glad you didn't tell him it was ok. Please don't.
Posted by sunny10 on April 14, 2005, at 14:11:04
In reply to Sunny - please read » sunny10, posted by AuntieMel on April 14, 2005, at 13:57:42
I have no intention of telling him that...
But thanks for reiterating that... I am so confused right now that I might have slipped that out sometime when I wasn't thinking.
I'll try to keep reminding myself. My "drug of choice" is nicotine.... I really should be giving that up, too, but honestly, I don't know how much more stress I can take AT THIS MOMENT.
I have just gotten from the adrenaline rush shakiness and sweats to the sheer exhaustion part... give me a week or two, at least! (Yeah, I know, sounds like an addict.... at least I know I won't OD and kill myself or someone else... but I DO know that it's not healthy and I need to stop...)
Posted by sunny10 on April 14, 2005, at 14:17:29
In reply to Sunny, posted by Susan47 on April 14, 2005, at 13:29:25
see, there you go again, Susan47.... you're so sweet and your words are so powerful you've made me teary again...
Thank goodness AuntieMel was near to remind me of the practical parts... I stink at the practical parts...
I love you guys; you manage to give me wings to fly AND the power to stay grounded. I know it sounds like I am confused, but these are BOTH exactly what I needed to be reminded to do.
big hugs and kisses- you guys will never know how much your support means to me...
I'm throwing out a massive hug wave right noooooooow...
did it knock you over???
Posted by partlycloudy on April 14, 2005, at 16:39:17
In reply to Re: Susan47 AuntieMel, posted by sunny10 on April 14, 2005, at 14:17:29
even I felt it.
Posted by Damos on April 14, 2005, at 17:53:00
In reply to Re: Susan47 AuntieMel, posted by sunny10 on April 14, 2005, at 14:17:29
Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo,
Your wave just hit Oz.
Lots a luv Sunny.
Posted by Susan47 on April 14, 2005, at 21:23:02
In reply to Re: Susan47 AuntieMel » sunny10, posted by Damos on April 14, 2005, at 17:53:00
I liked the feel of that wave, myself. Wings to fly, how lovely. Flying is always what I've done best, and it gets me into a lot of trouble emotionally.. thank gosh for the Auntie Mels in my own life. But i'll tell you something, it's really really hard to want to fly when the world wants you to stay down.. down, girl. FTW, you know what that means? It's a biker thing. It's terrible but sometimes, you know, you realize the world is just out there to bite your *ss. And you have to damn well bite back.
Posted by sunny10 on April 15, 2005, at 8:23:32
In reply to Hi Sunny, posted by Susan47 on April 14, 2005, at 21:23:02
I pushed the hug wave thought so hard I gave myself a headache...
I really must learn to not be so literal...
Posted by Susan47 on April 15, 2005, at 10:37:43
In reply to Re: I'm so glad you caught the hug..., posted by sunny10 on April 15, 2005, at 8:23:32
It's the literal part of the pushing energy that's so fascinating though. The think-tank is real .. thought energy exists.
Posted by sunny10 on April 15, 2005, at 11:34:16
In reply to Re: I'm so glad you caught the hug..., posted by Susan47 on April 15, 2005, at 10:37:43
This is the end of the thread.
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