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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 44. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by yesac on July 12, 2003, at 15:06:50
This is just a curiosity question...
To any of you who have attempted suicide (and survived, obviously), are you glad that you survived? That's what I read and hear. And I've even felt some sense of it myself when I have been thinking very seriously about it (never actually tried though) and then it was later and I felt better.
Posted by paxvox on July 12, 2003, at 15:56:07
In reply to to suicide survivors..., posted by yesac on July 12, 2003, at 15:06:50
Been *close*, but have never tried to act on it SPECIFICALLY. Your observation that those who have not succeeded in their attempt at suicide (or have quelled that burning desire when it seemed the only thing left to do...as in my case..) actually are RELIEVED that they didn't/couldn't do it (or were saved through medical intervention) is important. I'm glad that you have discovered that. My spin on the subject is that suicide is a desperate act generally falling under one of two "types" of modality. The first, being the rash (largely unpremeditated)
action of someone suddenly overwhelmed by a situation, such as a reaction to a death in the family or the end of a relationship, job, etc... My belief is that THESE are the people who could more easily have been *saved*, and who WOULD feel better later that they had not succeeded in their attempt. The second group would be those who have dwelled on the idea for a long time. Have obsessed with it, and actually planned out the whens and hows (but the whys.....I'm not so sure). They may have come close several times, then changed their mind, or had some intervention taken by someone else. They tend to try more than once. In my case, it was living life vicariously, flirting with dangerous activities, abusing drugs and alcohol. I really did not care if I died, because my perceived quality of life was so horrid. I did not take DIRECT actions to end my life, but was clearly on a self-destructive path that probably WOULD have resulted in my death if I had not changed things. These are the ones who are so unsure about life, because it has become more existance than living, and the existance has become increasingly unbearable. Still, even this sort of person can look back later (once their perspective has changed) and be glad that they never acted it out. Suicide is to a degree, the last bit of control someone has on a life gone haywire, where they have very little, if any, control over what goes on in their world. Some use it for the "last word" in a sort of vengeful way to hurt the ones that have hurt them. All in all, I still am convinced that suicide is a selfish act. The only situation in which I would even marginally think it *acceptable* would be in the case of a person with a terminal illness in extreme pain w/o ANY chance for recovery, merely to put an end to their suffering, and to have the "say" on when DEATH will have its way. Still, there are moral implications in suicide even in these sort of situations. Strangely,if you were to ask someone about to die from illness what they thought about life, most would say they wished they had lived it out better when they did. They would also, most likely, be willing to trade their situation for almost anything to avoid the suffering of a lingering death. Is that feeling better about not dying? Sorry for the rambling on. But this question of life and living plagues so many of us. Personally, I'm glad to be alive even though my life sort of sucks right now. It is only in the HOPE that tomorrow will bring a brighter day that allows me to keep those thoughts in perspective. Live life not from the memories of the past, but in your dreams for the future.
PAX
Posted by gabbix2 on July 12, 2003, at 17:14:58
In reply to Re: to suicide survivors..., posted by paxvox on July 12, 2003, at 15:56:07
Not yet, no. I hope for the day that I will,
thats what keeps me going. In my case I believe the act would be selfish. I've actually discussed it with my family, asked permission really to be 'let out' I told them I felt I was sucking the life out of them and couldn't live up to their expectations ever. Its been made clear to me that I would be being selfish.
However, I don't subscribe to the idea that its *always* selfish. I also see where one would really believe that they are too great a burden on friends and family and have nothing to offer, that suicide is a gift to the family. Severe depression is delusional that way.If I lived without reprieve from my deepest anguish, and I can only imagine that some people must, then I can't help but think its selfish to expect everyone to survive it. In my mind Pain is only tolerable when you can see an end to it.
Posted by NikkiT2 on July 12, 2003, at 18:23:11
In reply to to suicide survivors..., posted by yesac on July 12, 2003, at 15:06:50
All I can say.. is today I am happy to be alive. And the days that I am happy to still be alive out number the other ones these days, so that is what I focus on.
I would never have believed that a year ago though.
Nikki xx
Posted by whiterabbit on July 12, 2003, at 20:04:29
In reply to Re: to suicide survivors... » yesac, posted by NikkiT2 on July 12, 2003, at 18:23:11
Now I'm glad that I lived, although I wasn't real happy about it at first...I thought what I guess a lot of people think after surviving a suicide attempt: Man, I don't do ANYTHING right!
For awhile I felt very sad and horribly guilty for putting my son through such a terrible ordeal.
He was nervous about leaving me alone & watched me pretty closely for awhile - I thought my God, what sort of creature AM I for not thinking about how this would have affected him for the rest of his life?? Since the day he was born, my world revolved around this wonderful gift from God, and then I go and do something like that to him...I did apologize and promised him I would NEVER attempt anything like that again. He could tell that I meant it & he visibly relaxed - even if I hadn't been sure when I said it, the relief on his face was so sincere...I could never go back on my word. He deserves so much more.
Still, when my husband announced that he was ending our 20-year relationship, the fact that I DID survive seemed like a cruel joke. I mean, I woke up alive so I could watch my husband run off with his girlfriend? What's up with THAT?
It just seemed so pointless, the fact that I was still drawing air...I believed that my survival had been random, a flip of the coin, totally without meaning.Today I feel differently. I'm sure that I lived for some reason - just because you don't know the reason doesn't mean there isn't one...you can't see Neptune but it's certainly there. We can't all be Joan of Arc...somebody I believe on this board right here, somebody compared this life to the back of a tapestry; all we see are jumbled colors, loose threads and knots with no pattern.
We aren't allowed to see the tapestry itself until our work here is done.I just loved that comparison & I know in my heart that it's true. I don't know HOW I know but I do.
I know now that suicide is wrong, that it solves nothing for the soul in pain and leaves a dreadful legacy for the people who love us...hard to explain the reasons for it being so wrong but it is. Like interrupting rudely when someone is speaking to us kindly, or yanking tomatoes off the vine while they're still hard and little and green, or drowning kittens in a sack. You know it's not right.These days with all the reality shows on TV, you can see just about anything...this show came on, a typical day for the people who work in an LA city morgue. They said that overall, suicide was much more common than homicide and far more prevalent in the upper economical classes than for people subsiding around the poverty level. Now what does that tell you?
I don't know, I just saw the show like an hour ago. But my first impression would be that our definition of success, our standards for the good life & our desire to be one of the beautiful people with lots of money and toys - these goals must be pretty hollow whether we attain them or not.
Well I haven't got it all figured out, for sure.
Some people get close to figuring it out and many of us never get too far past the starting gate. But at least I do have a better idea these days of what's NOT so important. It's hard not to want certain things; the beautiful house, the expensive convertible, the stake on the giant hill full of fire-ants where you can tie up your husband and leave him naked in the scorching sun with his head stuck in a pot of honey like Winnie the Pooh. Sure you want all those things, but are they REALLY so important? Prehaps not.Ya'll hang in there.
Love, Gracie
Posted by Sabina on July 12, 2003, at 21:09:01
In reply to Re: to suicide survivors..., posted by whiterabbit on July 12, 2003, at 20:04:29
Posted by Miller on July 12, 2003, at 21:22:57
In reply to to suicide survivors..., posted by yesac on July 12, 2003, at 15:06:50
I tried two times in a very short time period. Obviously both were non-successful.
After the first attempt, I was not at all glad that I had failed. The second attempt came a month later. At first I was glad. Then I had some ery rocky times. I was up and down again.
I too, have read where people who survived find a will to live that they never had previous. My doctor once called it "ego-cide". Basically, when a person attempts suicide the attempt kills off the part of the ego which has been creating the harnful and destructive thoughts. I personally don't believe that ego-cide would be permanant.
I am holding on to the belief that if I can finally be honest with myself and my emotions, I will lose the desire to give up.
Thanks for asking. It is a great question.
-Miller
Posted by noa on July 13, 2003, at 10:36:41
In reply to to suicide survivors..., posted by yesac on July 12, 2003, at 15:06:50
I have never gone through with an attempt, but have been quite close several times. I am glad I didn't go through with it. I never would have believed it possible to want to live and to be able to live without constantly wanting to die, but it eventually did happen. I'm glad to be here.
Posted by yesac on July 13, 2003, at 15:47:26
In reply to Re: to suicide survivors..., posted by Miller on July 12, 2003, at 21:22:57
> I too, have read where people who survived find a will to live that they never had previous. My doctor once called it "ego-cide". Basically, when a person attempts suicide the attempt kills off the part of the ego which has been creating the harnful and destructive thoughts. I personally don't believe that ego-cide would be permanant.Hmmm... that's interesting. Yeah, I read this one book about the whole "process" of a suicide attempt - the lead-up, the attempt, the time in the hospital, the recovery. And all of the people in the book were glad to have lived. But of course, I'm sure that they were specifically selected because of that, and there are plenty more out there who aren't so glad. But all of these people in the book had been able to embrace life more and really make something out of it after their attempts. It took a while, but eventually they really seemed to enjoy life and do great things.
>
> Thanks for asking. It is a great question.You're welcome. And thanks.
Posted by yesac on July 13, 2003, at 15:51:38
In reply to Re: to suicide survivors..., posted by noa on July 13, 2003, at 10:36:41
> I have never gone through with an attempt, but have been quite close several times. I am glad I didn't go through with it. I never would have believed it possible to want to live and to be able to live without constantly wanting to die, but it eventually did happen. I'm glad to be here.
Really? I just can't shake the fear that I'll never be happy. And that I'll really WANT to live. I guess I have that hope that eventually I'll get on top of this, and I imagine things falling into place in the years ahead.... but that's all just a hope. I've felt this way for so long already.... why should I think it could change?
Posted by gabbix2 on July 13, 2003, at 15:55:29
In reply to Re: to suicide survivors..., posted by noa on July 13, 2003, at 10:36:41
Thats so encouraging Noa
If you wouldn't mind,
I mean it, only if you wouldn't mind, would you give me an idea how long it took, or an age range
for when you started feeling better.
I know everyone's different some hope would be nice though.
Posted by yesac on July 13, 2003, at 16:00:03
In reply to Re: to suicide survivors..., posted by noa on July 13, 2003, at 10:36:41
I wonder if actually surviving an attempt is sort of the way to get some real help? I just feel like I'm not getting enough. I mean, not that that in itself would be a "good" reason to make an attempt. Maybe hospitalization without an attempt would work too. Or not. I mean, you're in and out in a few days, and then what? It's back to the same. A few days can't fix anything really. I don't know.
I think it's ironic because even though I have this desire to kill myself (stronger at some times than others) - the idea of being killed like in an accident or something bothers me. It's like, I want to decide. I've sometimes thought... imagine if I got some disease and only had a few months to live. How horrible to think that I wouldn't get the chance to do all of these things in life that I want to do! It would be so sad to face that. But yet, I feel at times willing to take my own life? To take that future away from myself? It's very strange to me.
Posted by Miller on July 13, 2003, at 16:23:08
In reply to Re: to suicide survivors... » Miller, posted by yesac on July 13, 2003, at 15:47:26
I also read a book about suicide survivors. It wasn't as "happily ever after" as what you read. They interviewed people that had some pretty violent attempts. One lady doused herself with gasoline and set herself on fire. She was concious through the whole thing. She talked about the horrible pain and disfigurement she then had to go through. Another man jumped from a bridge that nobody had ever live through before. Eerybody who jumped died. Except him. He was in a wheelchair the rest of his life.
DDefinately don;t make an attempt just for help. The right people, once you find them, will know your pain without having to see an attempt. I truly wanted to die when I tried. Now my husband can't cope with the fact that I made the attempt. He took it all personally. Who could blame him? If the tables were turned, I think I would also feel devastated.
If you feel you aren't getting what you need, keep looking. There are tons of therapists out there. They are all so different and so diverse, you can have everything you need. You just have to look.
A friend of mine from this board was saying that her therapist has learned how to be more guiding than harsh with her. My therapist knows I need a "sting" of reality to get myself going. She could never take to my therapist and I would never take to hers. Yet, to hear us talk, they are the only two therapists worth having :)
Yesac, don't make an attempt. And, a couple of days in a hospital trained for these illnesses can do wonders. Trust me. I would be worm food right now if I hadn't spent a few days in the hospital and if my therapist didn't adapt to my needs.
-Miller
Posted by gabbix2 on July 13, 2003, at 17:03:13
In reply to I also wonder..., posted by yesac on July 13, 2003, at 16:00:03
I know where I live I got no more help as a suicide attempt survivor than I would have as a voluntary patient. As it is I just got placed where I couldn't have anything sharp, "stabilized" and sent home again, with no social supports in place, feeling demoralized and then put on 'med rations' It was nice meeting the other patients though.
I really hate med rations Its where you have to go to the pharmacy every day to pick up your medication cause they don't want you to have too much. Honestly its almost aversion therapy in itself.
As for it being ironic t contemplating suicide while being frightened by the thought of dying accident, I don't think its really ironic.
I think Its about control and pain. Choosing how you die and when you die allows you to manage the variables An accident brings up fear of pain and the unknown, and both of those are intense feelings
Posted by noa on July 14, 2003, at 0:56:23
In reply to Re: to suicide survivors... » noa, posted by gabbix2 on July 13, 2003, at 15:55:29
Well, that hospitalization was 19 years ago, when I was in my 20's. It took a year or two after that to really feel in the clear.
But my depression did come back with a vengeance in my thirties, after a few ok years, during which I only had mild depression sometimes. When it came back, it did not respond well to meds, and I also didn't respond well to higher doses of meds (because of SEs), so the depression became treatment resistent. From about 33 to 40, my depression was often quite awful. I was never hospitalized but came close at a couple of points.
When my thyroid disorder was finally diagnosed and treated, I started responding better to the AD meds and improved steadily for a couple of years. I don't remember when exactly I felt in the clear again, but it was probably when I was 40, in the year after the thyroid problem was addressed aggressively.
While I was getting better, I became very anxious about having the depression pounce on me when I least expected it. This was something I worked on very hard in therapy.
I still struggle with depression, but I bounce back much quicker now and haven't been suicidal for a long time.
Posted by giget on July 14, 2003, at 9:32:19
In reply to Re: to suicide survivors... » gabbix2, posted by noa on July 14, 2003, at 0:56:23
I am not happy I survived. It was a thought out decision in my life and was supposta be an end. I have not found a new look to life or a feeling that sucide is wrong. I still belive it is the choice of an individual.
I have made 2 attempts and wish I would have not made it through them. My life is alot better now, then during the breakdown, and I seem to have a normal life, but I still do not see any benifit to me being here.
I did not attempt to get people to notice me, or to get help. But to DIE. Some people really do mean it when they do sucide. No matter what anyone says in this life I will always feel that way.
I am not saying that I do not do things now that are not fun and I am glad that I did. I am just saying that my life was supposta end on that day. I do not regret the attempt, just the failure. A person has only so long on Earth, and some of us have out lived the life.
I don't see life now as.. well if I would have died I would not have to go through pain, or happiness, or to help someone.... It is just my time to go. It is not something I get worked up about, but this is how I believe....
Most people will tell you differently but I made the attempt to succed, not to fall short. I am not lucky to be here and I just have to be here.
Posted by gabbix2 on July 14, 2003, at 9:33:22
In reply to Re: to suicide survivors... » gabbix2, posted by noa on July 14, 2003, at 0:56:23
Posted by yesac on July 14, 2003, at 10:29:27
In reply to Re: to suicide survivors..., posted by giget on July 14, 2003, at 9:32:19
But... you are still here. Why is that if you really feel that your life is supposed to be over and you really don't want to go through the pain of it all? Do you think that you will try again? And you said that your life is a lot better now, so do you think that maybe it could even get better?
Just wondering. I'm not trying to be patronizing or anything!
Posted by giget on July 14, 2003, at 10:55:07
In reply to Re: to suicide survivors... » giget, posted by yesac on July 14, 2003, at 10:29:27
I am still here yes. I don't see it as not going through the pain. Life is full of happiness and pain, but I am not saying I should not be here because I don't want to deal with the pain.
I don't know why I am still here. I am just going with the flow of how everything turned out. There must be something I am supposta go through before I leave. What it is I do not know, have I already accomplished it now, I don't know.
Will I make more attempts? I might, it depends on weather I feel my job is done here or not. But this time I will make sure I will not be a survivor.
To alot of people this may be a strange concept of life, but this is the way I feel. I may live for another 40 years and be so happy and have all the love in the world... But if I would have died that day, I would not be missing that... My life may be pleasure or pain, either way it would not change my feelings.
I look back at my life and look at the good things and bad that have occured since then. The good times were wonderful, the bad were just that bad. I am glad I got to experience them, but I do not need them to have a full life. I was, and still are, in my mind finished with this specific life here.
> But... you are still here. Why is that if you really feel that your life is supposed to be over and you really don't want to go through the pain of it all? Do you think that you will try again? And you said that your life is a lot better now, so do you think that maybe it could even get better?
>
> Just wondering. I'm not trying to be patronizing or anything!
Posted by judy1 on July 14, 2003, at 12:28:56
In reply to to suicide survivors..., posted by yesac on July 12, 2003, at 15:06:50
Thank you for the excellent question. I had 2 serious attempts (the last 3 years ago), and one that landed me in intensive care for several days. Afterwards I felt like a failure and very angry at those who rescued me. Much later (and still to this day), I feel extremely guilty for putting my loved ones through such a selfish act. This is the emotion that prevents me from trying again, despite some pretty bad suicidal ideation at times. Personally hospitals did not help- only because I have the typical insurance where they keep you for about a week. It really was out-patient 'day hospital' that seemed to make a difference, the daily group and individual sessions that structured my day. My insurance didn't seem to mind that- it was $600/day versus $1200. If increased sessions with your therapist don't help, maybe you can consider that? Do you have a contract with your therapist? take care, judy
Posted by Penny on July 14, 2003, at 12:35:34
In reply to Re: to suicide survivors... » yesac, posted by judy1 on July 14, 2003, at 12:28:56
Funny, I was in an intensive outpatient program through a hospital in Charlotte last year this time, and my insurance apparently would have been more willing to pay for hospitalization! But the IOP program WAS very good and very helpful, but I don't know if there's anything around here, where yesac and I both live, unfortunately. How long were you in your program? I was in mine for a month, but was unemployed part of the time, so I was able to work it into my schedule, but I wouldn't be able to do that now, even if there was such a program.
P
Posted by yesac on July 14, 2003, at 12:49:03
In reply to Re: to suicide survivors... » yesac, posted by judy1 on July 14, 2003, at 12:28:56
> I feel extremely guilty for putting my loved ones through such a selfish act. This is the emotion that prevents me from trying again, despite some pretty bad suicidal ideation at times.
I would say that the guilt over hurting my family so much is probably the main reason I have never attempted. Also, believe it or not, I think that my "agreements" with therapists have actually made me really think twice at times, because I really don't like to go back on my word.
>It really was out-patient 'day hospital' that seemed to make a difference, the daily group and individual sessions that structured my day.
I've given some thought to that type of thing, but like Penny said, I haven't had success in finding something around here. Plus, there is the issue of my job. I wish that they had evening and/or weekend intensive programs. It's like with these daytime things, they assume that someone needing that must not be capable of working. It's too disruptive to my life. I shouldn't have to give up my life in order to do that. Don't you think that if maintaining "normalcy" in one's life is possible, they should allow for that?
Posted by judy1 on July 14, 2003, at 12:52:47
In reply to Re: to suicide survivors... » judy1, posted by Penny on July 14, 2003, at 12:35:34
Hi Penny,
I also was in it for about a month then transitioned into seeing my therapist 2 or 3 times a week. The last time I tried I stopped working so scheduling wasn't a problem (even though there were people there who did work). Because I made an attempt I was 'ordered' to go from 9 to 3, but there were people who just came a couple of hours. I'm really sorry there isn't a program like that where you live, I guess the next best thing would be increased therapy visits- mine would probably suggest daily and my shrink has spent 2 hours at a time with me when I'm having a difficult time. It was during outpatient when spouses (or other family) came that I really understood what agony I had put my husband through (I'll never forget that). My (then) one child was too young to understand, but I lost my father to suicide and I feel a great deal of anger towards him. I'm sorry to ramble. take care of yourself, judy
Posted by yesac on July 14, 2003, at 13:03:44
In reply to Re: to suicide survivors... » Penny, posted by judy1 on July 14, 2003, at 12:52:47
Oh, how I wish I could have more therapy visits. I have at times gone twice a week (in college when it was free!). But now it would just be too expensive. I just don't feel like I can be shelling out all that money. My copayments are $30, so it would really add up if I went two or three or more times a week.
Posted by Penny on July 14, 2003, at 13:53:22
In reply to Re: to suicide survivors... » Penny, posted by judy1 on July 14, 2003, at 12:52:47
Yes, my grandfather committed suicide two years ago and I still harbor a lot of anger toward him and the events surrounding his death. At the time it made me think, "I would never do this to my family," and it's my grandmother and my dogs that keep me from going there. At the same time, when I'm in my worst moments, the logic is gone and the pain is such that it outweighs any reason I might have had.
P
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