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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by ROO on January 17, 2003, at 8:48:49
That's my question for the day...I'm interested to
hear what different people on this board have to
say.
Posted by mikhail99 on January 17, 2003, at 9:26:54
In reply to What's it mean to you to feel close to someone?, posted by ROO on January 17, 2003, at 8:48:49
> That's my question for the day...I'm interested to
> hear what different people on this board have to
> say.Roo, it's too early for that kind of deep question! :-)
Do you mean what kind of criteria must be in place for one to feel close to someone? For me, it's about being understood and loved despite all that's wrong with me. That I can voice my fears, feelings and neurosis (and there's a lot of those) and the other person will still find me likeable. And the other person can communicate with me and let me know what they need from me. That they can be open to being loved and allow me to see all of them.
No pressure there, right? :-)
Having said all that, it's got me wondering if I don't have unattainable expectations? I don't really feel that with many people except maybe my sister. I'm starting to believe that my husband I and don't share the same expectations for a marriage. We're more like roomates. sigh.
Posted by Ginjoint on January 17, 2003, at 12:43:39
In reply to What's it mean to you to feel close to someone?, posted by ROO on January 17, 2003, at 8:48:49
Hmmm...it would be letting them know where I'm at emotionally right now, and they wouldn't be afraid. They would still talk to me about what's going on their life (good and bad), and we could snuggle and touch in a relaxed way. We would explore the city together, and muddle through life together, always knowing that the other person's hand is there to grasp (no matter how tightly) if we should lose our way.
O.K., I know the above paragraph is a grammatical sacrilege, but you get the idea. :)
What's your idea of feeling close, Roo?
Ginjoint
Posted by ROO on January 17, 2003, at 14:08:11
In reply to Re: What's it mean to you to feel close to someone?, posted by Ginjoint on January 17, 2003, at 12:43:39
> What's your idea of feeling close, Roo?
I'm not sure...I've been thinking about this question a lot lately...It has a lot to do with trust and security...being able to be myself with
someone...the good, the bad and the ugly...being able to be silly...being
able to be comfortable being silent without having it feel weird....being able
to share my hopes, dreams and fears without feeling judged....being able to feel
somewhat relaxed and at ease....being able to laugh and understand each other's humor....I haven't felt close to anyone for a long time, and haven't LET myself. For the past year
or so, I've shut a lot of people out of my life. It's kind of scaring me how I've forgotten
how to be close to people and how I won't let myself be. I think I've become really full of shame
because I've fallen into such a depression. I project my own self judgement over this onto others and
expect that they will judge me as harshly as I do myself or something. Lots of shame.
Posted by mikhail99 on January 17, 2003, at 14:29:39
In reply to Re: What's it mean to you to feel close to someone?, posted by ROO on January 17, 2003, at 14:08:11
>
> > What's your idea of feeling close, Roo?
>
>
> I'm not sure...I've been thinking about this question a lot lately...
>
> It has a lot to do with trust and security...being able to be myself with
> someone...the good, the bad and the ugly...being able to be silly...being
> able to be comfortable being silent without having it feel weird....being able
> to share my hopes, dreams and fears without feeling judged....being able to feel
> somewhat relaxed and at ease....being able to laugh and understand each other's humor....
>
> I haven't felt close to anyone for a long time, and haven't LET myself. For the past year
> or so, I've shut a lot of people out of my life. It's kind of scaring me how I've forgotten
> how to be close to people and how I won't let myself be. I think I've become really full of shame
> because I've fallen into such a depression. I project my own self judgement over this onto others and
> expect that they will judge me as harshly as I do myself or something. Lots of shame.
>
>
>
I think a lot of people experience shame in relation to being depressed. But you have to remember that this isn't something you have control over, it's an illness. I don't think there is anything to be ashamed of and I hope you find that people are more sympathetic and understanding than you realize. I hope it's something you can let go of eventually.Take care Roo!!
Mik
Posted by Ginjoint on January 17, 2003, at 14:53:23
In reply to Re: What's it mean to you to feel close to someone?, posted by ROO on January 17, 2003, at 14:08:11
> I think I've become really full of shame
> because I've fallen into such a depression. I project my own self judgement over this onto others and
> expect that they will judge me as harshly as I do myself or something. Lots of shame.Ain't it the truth?! This is something I haven't seen discussed, and maybe needs its own thread. I am currently on Social Security disability payments due to my mental illness, something I never dreamt in my worst nightmare would happen. Being on the government dole! Talk about shame. I know the shame's not logical, and that this is only a temporary situation, but it's still there and keeping me from becoming more involved in the outside world. Roo, I've "lost" several people also -- both because of my own shame, or they were ashamed OF me. After that, I got real gun-shy about reinvesting in new people "just until the depression is gone." But then I'm sad because I am so alone. The term "vicious cycle" doesn't do this justice, as I bet you know.
I liked what you wrote about being comfortable in each other's silence. That is a very safe feeling, hm?
Ginjoint
Posted by IsoM on January 17, 2003, at 15:18:01
In reply to What's it mean to you to feel close to someone?, posted by ROO on January 17, 2003, at 8:48:49
My description has nothing to do with a romantic relationship between a man & woman, but it would be valid for that sort of closeness too.
I'm thinking of the closeness you would feel to a very trusted long time friend, to a family member, or to a mate.
There'd be complete trust. We'd never be worried that the other would betray something.
We'd know that who we were, how we may come across in diff moods, what we truly believed & cared about would all be 'sacred' with the other.
We wouldn't assume the negative but, if uncertain, would ask what was meant.
Communication would be open, without prejudice.
We would look out for each other's interest in all matters.
We would be fiercely loyal to each other despite what others might say, & would be willing to stick up for each other.
But we'd not be afraid to point out the wrongs the other may do & would be willing to listen & accept help & counsel.
We'd do what we could when the other was unable to for whatever reason.
We'd laugh together.
We'd cry together.
We would love each other as much as we loved ourself.
And we'd be forgiving & understanding when the other erred or perhaps hurt us unintentionally.And lastly, for me, I'd be able to sing aloud around them without feeling self-conscious.
Posted by IsoM on January 17, 2003, at 15:19:58
In reply to Re: What's it mean to you to feel close to someone? » ROO, posted by mikhail99 on January 17, 2003, at 9:26:54
Mikhail, your expectations are NOT unreasonable. That's what true friends do, whether they're married to each other, or are just very close.
Posted by mikhail99 on January 17, 2003, at 16:10:07
In reply to Re: What's it mean to you to feel close to someone? » mikhail99, posted by IsoM on January 17, 2003, at 15:19:58
> Mikhail, your expectations are NOT unreasonable. That's what true friends do, whether they're married to each other, or are just very close.
Thanks IsoM, I know this but it's something I have to work on. My therapist and I just talked about this during our last session, that I have a right to ask for the things I need. My husband is very good at making my needs seem unreasonable.
Someday, I'll get there...
Posted by syringachalet on January 17, 2003, at 17:33:17
In reply to Re: What's it mean to you to feel close to someone? » IsoM, posted by mikhail99 on January 17, 2003, at 16:10:07
For me to have a intimate relationship with anyone but my husband is not in the cards for me right now.
My hubby and I have physical closeness as he helps me with those things both around the house and my personal care that help me/us function as a couple and a team. In 20 years of marriage, lust has been replaced with mature love; passion has been replaced with compassion and trust and tolerance were earned by us both along the way...
Most of the people I talk to share with me the one thing they fear most in a relationship is rejection. It is that rejection that keeps them from reaching out to those who need their caring and attention as much (or more) than they do.
You mention eariler that being comfortable with silence in a relationship. I was just listening to a country music song on the radio by Aliason Crouse that was titled, You Say It Best When You Say Nothing At All. It descrribes all the different non-verbal ways we tell( and more importantly show) how much we care about someone.
I feel, for me, it basically comes down to vulnerability issues. That to open yourself up to someone else and risk their acceptance or rejection is often more than most of us can bare.
I have found PSB a "soft place to land" where I might not be wonderful or'normal' but I am accepted and tolerated. It is also a place that I get a 'gentle reality check' when needed from those whom are 'in the trenches with me".
Also it shows that those here care enough about one another to show 'honesty with kindness"...Just my thoughts.......
syringachalet
Posted by IsoM on January 17, 2003, at 18:56:34
In reply to Re: What's it mean to you to feel close to someone? » IsoM, posted by mikhail99 on January 17, 2003, at 16:10:07
I'd be the last person to add any discord to someone's marriage, but I do understand what you mean. I've been single for 6 years now & am far happier than I'd ever been with my husband. I stuck it out for 24 years. To him, his needs were paramount over mine & our sons. When we needed attention, he said he was too depressed to give. Never mind that I was struggling with depression too. I never even asked for much either.
I feel because I put my needs on the back burner, it only made him more complacent & figured the situation didn't have to change. It was only when a crisis point was reached & I demanded that we get some counselling & work on this together that he found the better solution was to leave.
Try to get your husband to accompany you to your pdoc or therapist so he can hear this from someone other than you. Hopefully, if he cares enough about you, he'll be willing to do his best to make some changes. You may even need to make some too to reinforce more loving behaviour. Any improvements, even small, should be encouraged. I hope something better works out for you.
Posted by Dinah on January 17, 2003, at 19:27:25
In reply to What's it mean to you to feel close to someone?, posted by ROO on January 17, 2003, at 8:48:49
Gooollly, you guys are making me feel bad. :(
The person I'm closest to is my husband, and I'm very close to him - he's my best friend. But all those things about intimacy and being able to reveal yourself and all that - are they real? Are they possible?
I trust my husband with my life to do his best for me. I trust that he will never abandon me. I trust that he will be the same person tomorrow that he is today. I don't at all trust that he will understand or accept my slimy underbelly, so to speak.
But we speak the same language, grew up in the same culture. We have little phrases we use that express a lot in a few words, but that no one else would understand the same way. We have similar tastes in comedy and humor (like grammar humor - grammar is hilarious), but not in music or drama. We respect each other's good points and can tolerate each other's less than good points.
Or as we say "You're almost everything I ever wanted. You're not perfect but I love you anyhow..." (Weird Al Yankovic)
But I couldn't tell him a lot of the stuff I tell you guys.
So maybe everyone needs lots of people to be close to, in different ways?
Posted by syringachalet on January 17, 2003, at 20:17:19
In reply to Re: What's it mean to you to feel close to someone? » ROO, posted by Dinah on January 17, 2003, at 19:27:25
Dinah,
I think you are wise to 'selective share' some of your mental health issues with your husband. I do the same with mine as to tell him 'everything' about my mental health past would only overwhelm him. He has always known what he needed to know and I have answered any question he has had about my past.
Like any long-term relationship, somethings are better on a 'need to know' basis..esp if the partner is not knowledgble of your illness and is able or not wanting to know about your illness. We have also learned to agree to occasionally disagree on certain subjects and not push buttons.
For me, I have found that the 'need to know' basis on this topic has actually been very beneficial in many relationships.
This helps the affected persons partner 'stay just outside the box/problem' thus being able to be a 'gentle reality check' for that person.
Often is action is more caring (and I know harder) than some folks would like to think.
(..kind of like its easier to just was Yes to your kid than to have to say No and be 'the bad guy'.)
Often my husband and I use the concept of,
"Is this one of those things that I listen and let you vent safely or is there something I
could do to help make this situation better?"(usually abbreviated to "Is this a TALK or a DO situation for me"?)For me personally, my husband shows me he loves me everyday when he takes out the trash without asking(esp if we have fish or something with garlic in it for dinner) or when he comes to bed with a load of clean laundry from the dryer and we sit there and fold it watching Jay Leno...
Sound too Archie Bunker to you guys???
Just sharing thoughts... how about yours????
syringachalet
Posted by mikhail99 on January 17, 2003, at 21:31:41
In reply to Re: your needs... » mikhail99, posted by IsoM on January 17, 2003, at 18:56:34
> I'd be the last person to add any discord to someone's marriage, but I do understand what you mean. I've been single for 6 years now & am far happier than I'd ever been with my husband. I stuck it out for 24 years. To him, his needs were paramount over mine & our sons. When we needed attention, he said he was too depressed to give. Never mind that I was struggling with depression too. I never even asked for much either.
Thanks IsoM, you're not adding discord. Much of what you said isn't anything new for me. My husband can be a sweet guy but he's very selfish with his time and his emotions. If you could see what I have to do to get him to tell me just what's going on with him. I go through cycles where I tolerate it but then I get fed up. I try not to ask for much either, it makes things so much simpler. :-)
>
> I feel because I put my needs on the back burner, it only made him more complacent & figured the situation didn't have to change. It was only when a crisis point was reached & I demanded that we get some counselling & work on this together that he found the better solution was to leave.
>
> Try to get your husband to accompany you to your pdoc or therapist so he can hear this from someone other than you. Hopefully, if he cares enough about you, he'll be willing to do his best to make some changes. You may even need to make some too to reinforce more loving behaviour. Any improvements, even small, should be encouraged. I hope something better works out for you.He and I do see my therapist (that I'm having major transference issues with, no surprise there) but only once or twice a month, that's as much as he'll do. It has helped and like I said earlier, my therapist has encouraged me to ask for more, to get my needs met by my husband. (So I can stop developing crushes on any man who is nice to me) Not all of it my husband's fault either, we have some pretty horrendous patterns that are so hard to break. I'm not the best communicator when I'm angry and hurt and I do tend to be very needy and self-centered.
Thanks for sharing your experience with me, it helps to know when there are people out there that have such similar experiences. I'm so glad that you are happy with where you are, you made a good decision.
Take care,
Mik
Posted by mikhail99 on January 17, 2003, at 21:34:27
In reply to Re: What's it mean to you to feel close to someone? » ROO, posted by Dinah on January 17, 2003, at 19:27:25
> Gooollly, you guys are making me feel bad. :(
>
> The person I'm closest to is my husband, and I'm very close to him - he's my best friend. But all those things about intimacy and being able to reveal yourself and all that - are they real? Are they possible?
>
> I trust my husband with my life to do his best for me. I trust that he will never abandon me. I trust that he will be the same person tomorrow that he is today. I don't at all trust that he will understand or accept my slimy underbelly, so to speak.
>
> But we speak the same language, grew up in the same culture. We have little phrases we use that express a lot in a few words, but that no one else would understand the same way. We have similar tastes in comedy and humor (like grammar humor - grammar is hilarious), but not in music or drama. We respect each other's good points and can tolerate each other's less than good points.
>
> Or as we say "You're almost everything I ever wanted. You're not perfect but I love you anyhow..." (Weird Al Yankovic)
>
> But I couldn't tell him a lot of the stuff I tell you guys.
>
> So maybe everyone needs lots of people to be close to, in different ways?Dinah, you make some excellent points about being close to different people in different ways. I'm much more forthcoming here or with my sister than I am with my husband.
And I just love you for quoting Weird Al!! You ROCK!!
Mik
Posted by Dinah on January 17, 2003, at 23:17:29
In reply to Re: What's it mean to you to feel close to someone? » Dinah, posted by mikhail99 on January 17, 2003, at 21:34:27
Isn't Weird Al great? When we go on a car trip, we bring lots of Weird Al and Lake Woebegon and old Bob Newhart and Smothers Brothers, because we hate each others' music for the most part.
Compromise, the main component of actually staying close to someone. :)
Posted by mikhail99 on January 18, 2003, at 10:54:35
In reply to Re: What's it mean to you to feel close to someone? » mikhail99, posted by Dinah on January 17, 2003, at 23:17:29
> Isn't Weird Al great? When we go on a car trip, we bring lots of Weird Al and Lake Woebegon and old Bob Newhart and Smothers Brothers, because we hate each others' music for the most part.
>
> Compromise, the main component of actually staying close to someone. :)
I've loved Weird Al for years. My cousin and I even went to one of his concerts and had a blast. We were sitting with all these kids and they were getting annoyed with us because we wouldn't stop singing along, we know ALL the words! :-D
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