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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on December 13, 2001, at 10:54:49
I feel like I'm in a dependent child position with my therapist. He now only works part time as a therapist and has a full time job. At the very end of every session I wait in uncertainty as he looks over his schedule for the upcoming week and tells me if he is going to be in town, if he can see me, and if so, when. I ruthlessly inconvenience my family to pick up my son so that I can see him whenever he is available.
This week I asked him if he would be available the week of Christmas. He answered "I'm going to be in town, but I'm not sure if I'll be seeing clients. I might, or I might not. I haven't decided yet." Now I know he works hard and is entitled to a vacation, and if he had just told me he wasn't coming in I wouldn't have been so upset. But for some reason, his words and tone seemed to rub my nose in my dependency, uncertainty, and lack of power in relation to him.
Now this is the bad part. I later called him in tears and tried to explain how I felt. He didn't get it at all. I'm terrified that I'm being to irritating and obnoxious by calling him. I'm afraid that if I'm not a good girl with him, I'll be the first thing on the chopping block when he decides to simplify his life.
I feel sick and distraught and can't concentrate on anything. Why did an offhand remark cause me so much distress? I tried Klonopin and orgasm, and the tension and distress is still building in me. I am now looking at my hidden stash of razors and alchohol swabs and trying not to cut. If I cut, I'm going to have to keep it a secret from him since there is nothing surer to make him uncomfortable and want to terminate me than my cutting in response to something he said. I'll try some closet time first and see if that helps.
I don't understand why I'm doing this. It's not at all rational. It is very unnerving to crash so fast over such a small thing. Am I crazy? This always makes me wonder why I do the things I do. It just isn't right. If I had to come up with some semi-rational reason, it might be that it reminds me of my mother picking me up at school when I was young. My mother was a teacher, and starting in kindergarten I never knew if she would pick me up at 3:15 or 5:45, depending on her schedule. I would wander around the schoolyard and the not knowing was the very worst part. But that's a stretch to connect to this, and I am always doing things like this anyway.
I hate my actions. I hate myself. I just don't understand and it's so important for me to understand.
I'm sorry to rant like this. I just don't know what to do.
Posted by cmcdougall on December 13, 2001, at 11:17:02
In reply to Why oh why do I do the things I do?, posted by Dinah on December 13, 2001, at 10:54:49
Dinah - may I ask what type of therapy you are getting?
I recently went through an intensive "cognitive" therapy program (10 days straight - 3 hours each day) and it was very helpful. The reason it worked for me was that it gave me very specific answers for the question, "Why do I do the things I do". Thats the whole point of it - helping people recognize their distorted thoughts, then understand feelings and behaviors that come from the distorted thinking.
I have always treated my depression with meds, and probably always will. The idea of talking to someone about the same old things over and over and over again just didn't seem productive to me. I KNOW what my problems are. I was forced into the cognitive program and thought it would be the same old thing - rehashing my troubled past. This was different - I had several breakthroughs into EXACTLY why I do the things I do, and how to change it.
Well, I still have distorted thoughts that sometime propel me into bad feelings and behaviors, BUT at least I have understanding. And I find that I am now able to recognize my distorted thoughts and so "nip them in the bud" more and more of the time.
You should be getting strengh and reassurance from your therapist, not more stress! Is it maybe time to look for someone else?
Good luck.
Carly
> I feel like I'm in a dependent child position with my therapist. He now only works part time as a therapist and has a full time job. At the very end of every session I wait in uncertainty as he looks over his schedule for the upcoming week and tells me if he is going to be in town, if he can see me, and if so, when. I ruthlessly inconvenience my family to pick up my son so that I can see him whenever he is available.
> This week I asked him if he would be available the week of Christmas. He answered "I'm going to be in town, but I'm not sure if I'll be seeing clients. I might, or I might not. I haven't decided yet." Now I know he works hard and is entitled to a vacation, and if he had just told me he wasn't coming in I wouldn't have been so upset. But for some reason, his words and tone seemed to rub my nose in my dependency, uncertainty, and lack of power in relation to him.
> Now this is the bad part. I later called him in tears and tried to explain how I felt. He didn't get it at all. I'm terrified that I'm being to irritating and obnoxious by calling him. I'm afraid that if I'm not a good girl with him, I'll be the first thing on the chopping block when he decides to simplify his life.
> I feel sick and distraught and can't concentrate on anything. Why did an offhand remark cause me so much distress? I tried Klonopin and orgasm, and the tension and distress is still building in me. I am now looking at my hidden stash of razors and alchohol swabs and trying not to cut. If I cut, I'm going to have to keep it a secret from him since there is nothing surer to make him uncomfortable and want to terminate me than my cutting in response to something he said. I'll try some closet time first and see if that helps.
> I don't understand why I'm doing this. It's not at all rational. It is very unnerving to crash so fast over such a small thing. Am I crazy? This always makes me wonder why I do the things I do. It just isn't right. If I had to come up with some semi-rational reason, it might be that it reminds me of my mother picking me up at school when I was young. My mother was a teacher, and starting in kindergarten I never knew if she would pick me up at 3:15 or 5:45, depending on her schedule. I would wander around the schoolyard and the not knowing was the very worst part. But that's a stretch to connect to this, and I am always doing things like this anyway.
> I hate my actions. I hate myself. I just don't understand and it's so important for me to understand.
> I'm sorry to rant like this. I just don't know what to do.
Posted by Augusta on December 13, 2001, at 12:20:24
In reply to Why oh why do I do the things I do?, posted by Dinah on December 13, 2001, at 10:54:49
Dinah,
It's not you. It's him.
Please repeat that ten times: It's not you. It's him.
Please repeat as needed until you start to feel better.
It really is him. He is treating you in a manner that tells you that you just don't really matter. I think it is *totally* reasonable to react as you are reacting to a shrink who tells us that we don't really matter to him. If we cannot trust our shrinks to treat us with a modicum of dignity -- who can we trust to do so? (And if we cannot trust anyone to do so -- what good is life? -- that, at least is how I feel.)
I am so sorry that this man has behaved this way to you. I personally feel that what he has done is horrible.
Please, please, remove yourself from this toxic situation. Look for someone who has some empathy and some basic therapeutic skill. And if it takes you a while to find such a person -- well, I suspect you would be better off with no therapist for a while than with a therapist who would do this to you.
I am sorry to speak so bluntly. Please forgive me if I should not have done so. As a sometime cutter myself, the kind of conduct your therapist has shown just makes me so furious. And for you to blame yourself???? No. No, that is just not all right.
God bless you.
Posted by Dinah on December 13, 2001, at 12:54:24
In reply to Re: Why oh why do I do the things I do? » Dinah, posted by Augusta on December 13, 2001, at 12:20:24
Thanks Augusta,
I'm sure I'm misrepresenting him, or maybe like a child, I just can't stand to think that there is anything wrong with the sole source of safety in my life. He does do a few other things that might indicate a lack of respect. He has trouble staying awake in session. He chronically starts sessions late and often ends them as if they were started on time. But my emotional self is attached to him in a way my rational self just can't understand. Any attempts on my part to shake that attachment just cause a lot of trouble to me. In fact my level of attachment to him is frightening to me and would scare the bejeebers out of him.
And he really does mean well.
Posted by Dinah on December 13, 2001, at 13:04:24
In reply to Re: Why oh why do I do the things I do?, posted by cmcdougall on December 13, 2001, at 11:17:02
> Dinah - may I ask what type of therapy you are getting?
>
> I recently went through an intensive "cognitive" therapy program (10 days straight - 3 hours each day) and it was very helpful. The reason it worked for me was that it gave me very specific answers for the question, "Why do I do the things I do". Thats the whole point of it - helping people recognize their distorted thoughts, then understand feelings and behaviors that come from the distorted thinking.
>
Thanks Carly,
My therapist does have a cognitive behavior bent but I must confess that cognitive therapy seems to irritate the heck out of me. There seems to be an attitude that if you just thought the right thoughts you'll be OK. But a short term intensive course sounds like it would irritate me less, especially if it felt more like instruction than therapy. I'll look into local availability. I have an obsession with figuring out why I do the things I do, especially since my emotions are such a mystery to me.
Posted by Dinah on December 13, 2001, at 13:10:05
In reply to Why oh why do I do the things I do?, posted by Dinah on December 13, 2001, at 10:54:49
It feels like my emotional self is trying to engineer a hostile takeover. I am trying to maintain control. At the very least it could cause a lot of embarassment to me.
Posted by JohnDoenut on December 13, 2001, at 13:11:25
In reply to Re: Why oh why do I do the things I do? » Augusta, posted by Dinah on December 13, 2001, at 12:54:24
Ok can I speak frankly as well?
> I'm sure I'm misrepresenting him, or maybe like
No youre not. Youre making excuses for him so you wont find someone else!
>a child, I just can't stand to think that there >is anything wrong with the sole source of safety >in my life.
But there is and you know it! Or you wouldnt be posting here!!!
>He does do a few other things that might indicate a lack of respect.
Well there you said it yourself!
>He has trouble staying awake in session.
This is bad. I had one pdoc who did that and I got tired of it and I stopped going to see him.
>He chronically starts sessions late and often >ends them as if they were started on time.
Have you talked about this with him?
>But my emotional self is attached to him in a way my rational self just can't understand.
>Any attempts on my part to shake that attachment just cause a lot of trouble to me.This is something that a good therapist would work on with you. Its something that does need to be explored and worked out. If you cant do that with him, find another pdoc or therapist to help you do that! How about this, while youre still working with him, find and start working with someone else, the stop with him. That way you wont have anyone not to go to.
>In fact my level of attachment to him is >frightening to me and would scare the bejeebers >out of him.
If a dr or therapist cant deal with a patients emotions whatever they are and analyse and work through them, they arent doing thier job or helping you!
> And he really does mean well.
Im sure battered women make this excuse all the
time for not leaving thier boyfriend or husband.No disrespect intended or anything, just trying to help! :)
Think about it.JohnD
Posted by Augusta on December 13, 2001, at 13:45:06
In reply to Re: Why oh why do I do the things I do?, posted by JohnDoenut on December 13, 2001, at 13:11:25
Oh, John D., thank you -- you saved me so much work!!
I wholly agree with you. Excellent post.
Dinah, I am concerned about you and hope that you will take John's comments in the very sincere, but realistic, way they are intended.
Posted by Roo on December 13, 2001, at 14:42:05
In reply to Why oh why do I do the things I do?, posted by Dinah on December 13, 2001, at 10:54:49
"I'm going to be in town, but
I'm not sure if I'll be seeing clients. I might, or I might not.
I haven't decided yet.""My mother was a teacher, and starting in kindergarten
I never knew if she would pick me up at 3:15 or 5:45,
depending on her schedule. I would wander around the schoolyard and the not knowing was the very worst part. But
that's a stretch to connect to this, and I am always doing things like this anyway."
I DEFINITELY think it's NOT a stretch to connect this. It's obvious
reading this that his words triggered a real primal childhood
trauma. Trauma's don't always have to be big earthquake type
things. You were totally helpless as a child as to knowing when
your mom would show up and it made you anxious. Our parents are
there to take care of us. A part of you probably feared she
WOULDN'T show up and then where would you be? Who would take care
of you? Who would love you? Who would feed you? Maybe you would be
left to die...I'll bet all that stuff was triggered. And now the same
thing with the shrink..."he may or may not" be there for you...you have
to wait and see, just like when you were a kid. It probably brings
up all those same abandonment/survival issues.I'm not sure what you can do to self soothe....maybe just observe
and be mindful of what you're feeling...compassionate. Imagine comforting
a small child. Please don't hate yourself. You are lovable and deserve
stability.
Posted by Roo on December 13, 2001, at 14:49:33
In reply to Re: Why oh why do I do the things I do?, posted by Roo on December 13, 2001, at 14:42:05
Dag, hearing more about this guy--I think definitely
dump him--he is not helping you. You might be attached
to him, but it sounds more like an unhealthy dependence--
like the way a child is dependent upon an neglectful/abusive
parent. (or a battered spouse as John D said)
It sounds to me like you are repeating a childhood
pattern with the shrink---you were neglected as a
child and now seek out others who will neglect you
and treat you like you don't matter. A good shrink
would see this and work with you on these issues--he
obviously is not making the connection and being helpful
to you. Ugh. This upsets me too. Please find someone
else.
Posted by wendy b. on December 13, 2001, at 15:17:25
In reply to Why oh why do I do the things I do?, posted by Dinah on December 13, 2001, at 10:54:49
I agree with Roo, it's no big stretch to compare the issues with this therapist to the childhood situation with your neglectful mother. You made the connection, that makes it viable... You've got to trust your instincts.
It's hard to imagine a mother could do this, at least in the year 2001 it is. What were you supposed to do if it rained or snowed? Or if there were a kid-molester hanging around? It happens, and it happened when you were a kid, too, bad people seeking out wandering children. The schools today would never allow a kid to wait for a parent all alone on the playground, too many liability issues. So she left you alone and wondering if she'd come or not, and this was upsetting. I can only think of you as this poor little girl at 3:20 or so, knowing it would be hours till she came, it's heartbreaking... I would give her a big hug and gently stroke her hair and tell her it's alright, if I could right now.
I think I have to agree with the others about a therapist change. If he cannot say when he'll be available, he's not worth your time. Value yourself and your own worthiness. You have your own schedule to keep, and that's important too... As for your post on being "odd," you are one of my favorite people to read, you always make good sense, and you are always supportive. A very good person, not "odd," sheesh, being an interesting and intelligent person shouldn't be a crime, should it?
I hope your attachment to the therapist can get worked on with the new one, as Roo suggests. And keep posting, it will keep you out of the closet (even though I know you like it in there), and not cutting.
Take care,
Wendy
Posted by Dinah on December 13, 2001, at 15:48:03
In reply to I really don't feel very well., posted by Dinah on December 13, 2001, at 13:10:05
No major damage. I cut a few inches off the bottom of my hair and chopped it into confetti. At least I didn't cut myself. In a few days I'll get it evened out & no one will ever know. (Now do you think I'm odd?) And it would appear that my temper tantrum is over. I'm just really sleepy.
I'm pretty sure I have somehow misrepresented my therapist. I'm too muddled to figure it out now. But in any case my emotional self (inner child?) will gladly self destruct and take me with her if I try to interfere with the attachment. She's a ruthless little thing.
Thanks for your support everyone. It really means a lot to me. Roo and Wendy, I think you're right about the connection being valid. At least this time, I might actually have an idea what is behind my odd reaction. And Wendy, thanks for your kind words. It sometimes takes an effort to post since my OCD makes me fear I am making a total mess of things.
Posted by Mark H. on December 13, 2001, at 19:19:50
In reply to Re: I think the worst may be over., posted by Dinah on December 13, 2001, at 15:48:03
Hi Dinah,
I have a friend who is a good mother, a capable business owner, a talented community volunteer, brilliant, funny and charming. She doesn't drink alcohol or use illegal drugs (her husband is a policeman, after all). She doesn't have affairs or engage in any improper behavior. In fact, if she didn't admit it (and occasionally get hospitalized for "dehydration"), no one would know that she is an anorexic and a self-cutter.
Since she avoids the usual mechanisms of addiction, she has instead become addicted to information about herself -- high intensity interactions with intelligent men she can hook into examining the *content* of her personal history rather than looking at the *process* of her unsatiable addictive behavior.
But her behavior is *exactly* the same as that of an alcoholic -- except she's "dry." I wonder if there is a 12-step program for people who are not on alcohol or drugs?
I'm really glad you're feeling better. I, too, recommend that you find a new therapist, one who does it for a living full-time and can provide a predictable schedule, and preferably, a strong no-nonsense woman, so that sex and gender issues might be less intense for you.
If you want a mantra that will help, try this one (borrowed from another person on the path): "I have everything I need to be happy right now." If you will repeat that 300 times, you will feel better. But for it to work, you have to say it out load and actually count. Each time a negative thought comes up in response to the statement, just say, "Thank you" and repeat the statement.
There's not one person in 100 who will take this advice -- even though it only takes about 15 minutes to do the experiment -- but if you do, I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
With kind regards,
Mark H.
Posted by Krazy Kat on December 13, 2001, at 19:25:19
In reply to I really don't feel very well., posted by Dinah on December 13, 2001, at 13:10:05
Dinah:
I'm sorry I've missed this post. Are you manic depressive? This totally sounds like a manic episode coming on. Then the cutting to "relieve it" - I certainly understand.
From a med view, perhaps you need a slight increase in Depakote for awhile.
You're odd, I'm odd - how boring to be normal. :)
- Kat
Posted by Dinah on December 13, 2001, at 20:07:57
In reply to Re: I think the worst may be over., posted by Mark H. on December 13, 2001, at 19:19:50
Hi Mark,
One problem I'm positive I don't have with him is sexual or gender issues. It's my emotional self that is attached to him. I like him well enough but could easily live without him. At the risk of sounding very odd indeed - and I really don't have DID (not that there's anything wrong with that) - he has earned my trust by always being kind to "her" even when she has been a royal pain in the ass. "She" has a mindless feeling of safety around him and sort of sees him as a mother dog to her blind newborn puppy. He soothes her. And "she" is too young to have sexual feelings towards anyone. ("She" thinks sex is gross.)
He really is incredibly trustworthy in the ways that matter. And he is very supportive during my periods of agitated depression and always seems to make time to see me twice a week during those periods. Perhaps he doesn't press me quite hard enough because he thinks my ego is weak (whatever that means - I really can't figure out Freudian theory) and because he has had too many unpleasant encounters with "her". We both tend to tiptoe around "her" far too much.
Am I addicted to cutting? Possibly. I am very parsimonious with my use of it because I don't want to have to escalate the intensity of it. I do obsess about it often. And I come from a family with a lot of addiction problems, which is why I have never gotten drunk or dabbled in drugs or gambled. But on the other hand, I have OCD and obsessing is what I do.
Posted by Dinah on December 13, 2001, at 20:19:09
In reply to Re: I really don't feel very well. » Dinah, posted by Krazy Kat on December 13, 2001, at 19:25:19
I'm a little afraid of that myself, Kat. Sometimes this sort of thing is just a one shot temper tantrum and cutting or in this case making a mess of my hair satisfies it and it's over. Other times it is the start of a very bad agitated depression. I'm hoping it's the former. I don't know if I'm bipolar II or not. I think my pdoc suspects it by the meds he prescribes and by a few comments he has made, but I think he is opposed to diagnosis and has never said anything.
I've been feeling rather unstable for a week or so, and I still feel very unstable tonight, but I don't feel out of control. I guess time will tell.
Thanks,
Dinah
Posted by Dinah on December 14, 2001, at 1:19:08
In reply to Re: Why oh why do I do the things I do? » cmcdougall, posted by Dinah on December 13, 2001, at 13:04:24
> >I have an obsession with figuring out why I do the things I do, especially since my emotions are such a mystery to me.
This obsession of mine always makes me think of my all time favorite X Files episode about the guy who kills all the psychics who can't tell him why he does what he does (kills psychics). Finally he gets his answer from the reluctant psychic played by Peter Boyle who tells him he does what he does because he's a homicidal maniac.
All this is apropos of nothing of course. It just always amuses me. It's a great episode.
Posted by mair on December 14, 2001, at 7:40:42
In reply to Why oh why do I do the things I do-A lighter note, posted by Dinah on December 14, 2001, at 1:19:08
Dinah - I tried to post a response to this thread yesterday and lost it somehow after I had typed it. - very aggravating.
I sometimes read your stuff and think that you and I must be working on some of the same issues. The best that I can offer is what I'm pretty sure my therapist would say about this. (patient-therapist relationships has been something we've talked about alot lately)
I'm sure she'd say that the 2 events are related and that what's happening to you now is transference at work. Her theory is that the way we interact with others is driven by experiences we've had before and that these same reactions/interactions can get replayed in a therapeutic relationship. For instance, if your childhood experience was to feel abandoned or dismissed, you may well feel that your therapist is doing the same. If you can work some of these relationship issues out with your therapist it may help rid you of the feeling that everyone is going to treat you the same way. (I'm sure I'm misstating and over simplifying here but I think this is the basic idea). The point is that a good therapist should recognize this and should be very open to discussing your relationship - as a valuable tool to work out some of those childhood issues. If you hold stuff like this back, it's more likely to interfere with the good that can come of therapy.
Talking to my therapist about our relationship is the lowest of the low on my list of therapy topics and I'm usually taken there pretty grudgingly. My therapist is pretty insistent that I do raise issues I have about things she said, or ways she made me feel and we have had to work through my periodic fears that she's going to jettison me as a client because I'm not getting better enough quickly enough, for instance. However awkward, I do think it's been helpful and I feel pretty strongly that you have to discuss some of what you've been feeling with this guy. If he's a decent therapist, he'll handle this discussion well and be glad that you brought it up. If he can't deal with it., I don't think you should keep seeing him.
One last thing - when you're feeling down, the easiest thing in the world is to second guess yourself, and because you feel dependent on this therapist, you're particularly going to second guess any negative feelings you have. Wendy's right though - you have to trust your instincts.
With your "am I odd" thread, you got me thinking about some issues concerning my own feelings of disconnectedness. If I get a chance I'm going to start my own thread about this. Regardless of how people who actually know you may perceive you, your writing on this Board would never suggest someone who's "odd" (for whatever that means) I've been sort of wondering if this Board is filled with people who express themselves in writing far better than they do orally.
Mair
Posted by Dinah on December 14, 2001, at 8:31:52
In reply to Re: Why oh why do I do the things I do-A lighter note » Dinah, posted by mair on December 14, 2001, at 7:40:42
Thanks Mair,
That really sums up how I feel about therapy myself. It's a relationship like any other and you need to work out the problems. He certainly has his flaws, but I've come to terms with them and they only occasionally cause problems with me. And he has so many good points, including being really professional about things like this, exploring my part of it nonjudgmentally, and accepting his part of it, and trying (although frequently not succeeding - just like any human being) at doing better. A lot of it comes from the feeling that he really doesn't like me too much, but it really isn't necessary that a therapist like his clients. And that conviction might be transference too. Although he would have more than enough reasons to dislike me.
I'll bring it up with him and maybe we can make some procedural changes that will help.
But you know, I think that the very conditions (basic uncertainty, power imbalance) of therapy might bring out the clingy, desperate behaviors that therapists hate in people who have borderline traits. I'm going to have to give that some thought.
Posted by JohnDoenut on December 14, 2001, at 11:29:35
In reply to Re: Why oh why do I do the things I do-A lighter note » mair, posted by Dinah on December 14, 2001, at 8:31:52
>A lot of it comes from the feeling that he really doesn't like me too much, but it really isn't necessary that a therapist like his clients. And that conviction might be transference too. Although he would have more
>than enough reasons to dislike me.Right but be that as it may if after exploration you decide YOU dont like your doctor or therapist then its a good idea I think to find one you do like. I would not see a doctor or therapist I didnt like. I dont have to know anything personal about them to know if I like them or not also. The chemistry between doctor and client cannot be underestimated.
> But you know, I think that the very conditions (basic uncertainty, power imbalance) of therapy might bring out the clingy, desperate behaviors that therapists hate in people who have borderline traits. I'm going to have to give that
>some thought.Yes but remember that people only have the power over us that we give them. Its yours to give and yours to take away. You gotta work that one out. Your doctor has certain legal authorities that you dont such as being able to prescribe meds but so do other doctors. That leaves psychic powers basically about the issues you addressed earlier and in those cases its an even field. IMHO!!! :)
JohnD.
Posted by Dinah on December 14, 2001, at 19:09:55
In reply to Re: Why oh why do I do the things I do? » Dinah, posted by Augusta on December 13, 2001, at 12:20:24
It's not me. It's him.
It's not me. It's him.
It's not me. It's him.
It's not me. It's him.
It's not me. It's him.
It's not me. It's him.
It's not me. It's him.
It's not me. It's him.
It's not me. It's him.
It's not me. It's him.Don't ask.
Posted by Kristi on December 14, 2001, at 23:33:46
In reply to It's not me. It's him., posted by Dinah on December 14, 2001, at 19:09:55
This is the end of the thread.
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