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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 20 to 44 of 44. Go back in thread:
Posted by dreamer on August 7, 2001, at 19:14:02
In reply to Symptom, posted by Willow on August 7, 2001, at 18:11:06
Very briefly articulation not strong point-specially at moment.
Agree with kazoo about doctors job to save lifes.
In UK the [serial killer?] Dr. Shipman put to death many aged women whether or not they asked him or not the case isn't clear.
But the devastation of the family's left behind should speak against assisted suicide.
I carry a selfish veiw because family not close and no children so suicide occasionaly crosses my mind but a recent "enlightening xperience has made me seek alternatives.
My step-father slowly deteriated for many years his body rotting away with MS also shitzophrenic and although I suffered mentally and the fact that I really had no love compassion for him I still wouldn't have assisted in his death.Effexor has made me a argument free-zone.
Posted by Willow on August 7, 2001, at 20:23:56
In reply to Re: assisted, posted by dreamer on August 7, 2001, at 19:14:02
I may have mentioned this before, oops if I did. My grandmother had broke her hip. The doctors removed her blood thinners so they could operate. Meanwhile the doctors were arguing wether it was safe to operate or not she had a stroke, because her meds were withdrawn. They probably added many years to her life.
Well after the stoke the doctors said she had 24hrs left. The days turned into weeks. There was nothing peaceful about her death, drawn out breaths, not concious. I argued to my mom that this was cruel. Her reply was that my grandmother didn't believe in euthanasia.
During this same time my goldfish of three years and many accidents with the children kept turnig on its side and back upright, but you could tell it wasn't going to make it. Everyone told me to flush him. I just couldn't do it.
I know my first two children's births were difficult. My third was easier. Perhaps some of us have a more difficult time leaving this world, just as some of our arrivals are swifter.
Willow
Posted by dreamer on August 7, 2001, at 20:35:49
In reply to Re: assisted, posted by dreamer on August 7, 2001, at 19:14:02
I worked in real world once in a stressful job.
People were tired of shift work bosses were, well
strict.
A guy worked their was always nervous on edge something in his personal life wasn't going too well and work didn't help.
I was always unoticably intoxicated and unconcerned about other collegues.
One evening I was told he hung himself.
I still think of him when ill even though I never knew his name.
Grim.
Posted by Willow on August 7, 2001, at 20:57:42
In reply to Re: assisted, posted by dreamer on August 7, 2001, at 20:35:49
> I was always unoticably intoxicated and unconcerned about other collegues.
> One evening I was told he hung himself.
> I still think of him when ill even though I never knew his name.Do you wish that you had reached out? Or is it more like a missing piece from a puzzle?
Willow
Posted by dreamer on August 7, 2001, at 21:24:02
In reply to Re: assisted, posted by Willow on August 7, 2001, at 20:57:42
> > I was always unoticably intoxicated and unconcerned about other collegues.
> > One evening I was told he hung himself.
> > I still think of him when ill even though I never knew his name.
>
> Do you wish that you had reached out? Or is it more like a missing piece from a puzzle?
>
> WillowI was so anti-social in a way always jumping to conclusions a really horrible person-xtreme mood swings. He once sat in control room trying to converse with me about some music we were watching I ingnored him.I guess then I didn't understand that most people are genuinely friendly and not after something . So yes suppose I wished I'd of reached out or at least was warm towards him.
Posted by Willow on August 7, 2001, at 22:00:36
In reply to Re: assisted, posted by dreamer on August 7, 2001, at 21:24:02
Ah Dreamer, he probably didn't like your breath or something. (Bad joke, you are suppose to laugh!) Or he was allergic to cat hair and you were covered in it!
You mentioned what a miserable place it was to work. My second real bout of depression was probably work related. It never dawned on me to quit until four years later. I thought I was the problem though everyone complained about the owner. Not a people person!
Hindsight isn't always a good thing is it?
Willow
Posted by kazoo on August 7, 2001, at 23:12:24
In reply to Re: suicides-Netherlands assisted? » kazoo, posted by Ted on August 7, 2001, at 10:57:20
> PS: btw, kazoo, depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, OCD, ADHD, etc., _ARE_ *organic* diseases just like AIDS, cancer, diabetes, hypertension, etc.
^^^^^^^^^^^
Organic v. Inorganic
Brain v. Mind
Disease v. Disorder
How can depression, an affective emotional disorder, be classified as "organic"? Is the brain diseased? Or is the mind disordered?
Did Freud treat hysteria as an organic disease? Freud was *not* a medical doctor but his buddy Fliess was. When Fliess tried treating disorders via organic, surgical methods, he failed miserably (although some of his work is making a comeback).
This is an interesting question, I must admit, and nothing is really clear either way. Arguments can be made for both view points.
Perhaps I'm attaching a strict chemical view to "organic" and "inorganic"; the former involving carbon-based compounds, and the latter about synthetic materials.
However, I have always felt that mental illness is not an organic disease simply because it involves the mind.
And as we all know:
Q. WHAT IS MIND?
A. No matter...
Q. THEN WHAT IS MATTER?
A. Nevermind...!Still confused? I am.
kazoo
Posted by dreamer on August 8, 2001, at 8:21:16
In reply to Work, posted by Willow on August 7, 2001, at 22:00:36
>
> Hindsight isn't always a good thing is it?
>
> WillowIf I know then what I know now oh:( applies to many many events . Thats why I've been working hard on a time travel machine .
Taking bookings, anyone interested please direct your interest to babble adminstration. Bobby boy is away on it right now to meet Mr. Freud.
Posted by Willow on August 8, 2001, at 9:32:53
In reply to Re: Work, posted by dreamer on August 8, 2001, at 8:21:16
You don't want to go back and do it all over again, you'll just end up with a whole new set of problems. Believe it or not, the ones we have now are easier to deal with because we are familiar with them.
Willow
Posted by dreamer on August 8, 2001, at 10:41:31
In reply to Oh NO!! » dreamer, posted by Willow on August 8, 2001, at 9:32:53
> You don't want to go back and do it all over again, you'll just end up with a whole new set of problems. Believe it or not, the ones we have now are easier to deal with because we are familiar with them.
>
> WillowI wouldnt be in this frame of mind now if it wasn't for zee past + evolved into what I am today + still evolving
So it's been a pointless post. Scatterbrained me.
Time for a nap.
Posted by kid_A on August 8, 2001, at 10:53:39
In reply to Re: Sadness over suicides-Everyone and lissa » kid_A, posted by Simcha on August 7, 2001, at 15:32:01
> Not to be terribly argumentative....
arguments are okay, as long as no body gets too riled up! :) this is indeed, a very debate worth topic...
> Reasoning this way, yes, my mental illness is like cancer or diabetes. I need my meds to correct the very physical problems in my make-up like a diabetic needs insulin..like a cancer patient needs chemotherapy, surgery, and/or radiation.
My point is that unlike cancer or say diabetes, you won't one day wake up dead if you ignore treatment for depression. So I think we can say that depression is 'like' a disease in that certain people may be more predisposed to it than others, and that there seems to be certain actions that seem disease-like, but I still think it is a stretch, and I dont think I would be alone in the medical community, to say that depression is a disease propper.
Maybe it's for my own good, but I feel good knowing that I'm not 'diseased'... I felt sick, to be sure... even physically so, but I feel comforted in saying that I do not have a 'disease'...
As for end-stage terminal illness assisted suicide; I watched my mother wither away over a period of a year from acute lymphatic luekemia, when she wasnt in slight remission she was very sick and in a lot of pain, very scared, I think... I don't think that I would like to have thought that my mother would prefer to die on her own terms, because I'ts my mother, and I want to keep her as long as I can, but I would have done anything to end her pain in whatever way was possible, and if that meant by her own choice, then for her own good, and to honor her, and to put some end to her own personal pain, her own personal world of pain that is so very dificult for any of us to know, yes I would in the end accept her death on her own terms.
Posted by Ted on August 8, 2001, at 11:07:05
In reply to Re: the big 'O' versus the big non-'O' » Ted, posted by kazoo on August 7, 2001, at 23:12:24
Hi Kazoo,
NO FLAMES INTENDED!
The only way I can make my point effectively is to use a formal proof (remember highschool geometry class?). I know it sounds rather hard-assed, but I think it gets my point across effectively.
You do not have to agree -- this topic is complex and has very personal implications to those of use who read this board.
Please bear with me.
Ted
Here goes:
> How can depression, an affective emotional
> disorder, be classified as "organic"?*** First proof ***
Argument:
Depression is an organic illness.Fact:
Diabetes is an organic illness.Fact:
Diabetes (type A) is caused by the lack of insulin production.Fact:
Lack of insulin production is identical to lack of regulation unless the desired regulation level is zero.Fact:
A living person requires the insulin regulation level to be greater than zero.Fact:
Depression is caused by lack of regulation of serotonin and other neurotransmitters.Conclusion:
By analogy, by lack of regulation of essential biochemicals, the process of diabetes is identical to the process of depression.
QED.*** Second proof ***
Argument:
Depression is an organic illness.Fact:
Diabetes is an organic illness.Fact:
Diabetes (type B) is caused by the lack of the body's response to the insulin produced.Fact:
Depression is caused by lack of receptor sensitivity to serotonin and other neurotransmitters.Conclusion:
By analogy, by lack of sensitivity & reaction to essential biochemicals, the process of diabetes is identical to the process of depression.
QED.*** end proofs ***
btw, if you are not familiar with formal proofs, "QED" means "quod exempli demonstratum" or "which was demonstrated". It is used to end proofs.
> > PS: btw, kazoo, depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, OCD, ADHD, etc., _ARE_ *organic* diseases just like AIDS, cancer, diabetes, hypertension, etc.
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Organic v. Inorganic
>
> Brain v. Mind
>
> Disease v. Disorder
>
> How can depression, an affective emotional disorder, be classified as "organic"? Is the brain diseased? Or is the mind disordered?
Posted by Ted on August 8, 2001, at 11:35:20
In reply to Re: the big 'O' versus the big non-'O' » kazoo, posted by Ted on August 8, 2001, at 11:07:05
> Hi Kazoo,
Here is another way to look at it. With depression, no matter how you look at it, there is no Big 'O' (orgasm, that is). I think that is something we can agree on. :-(
Ted
Posted by Willow on August 8, 2001, at 12:09:58
In reply to Re: Oh NO!!, posted by dreamer on August 8, 2001, at 10:41:31
> > You don't want to go back and do it all over again, you'll just end up with a whole new set of problems. Believe it or not, the ones we have now are easier to deal with because we are familiar with them.
> >
> > Willow
>
> I wouldnt be in this frame of mind now if it wasn't for zee past + evolved into what I am today + still evolving
> So it's been a pointless post. Scatterbrained me.
> Time for a nap.
Posted by Willow on August 8, 2001, at 12:14:28
In reply to The big 'O' versus the big non-'O', posted by Ted on August 8, 2001, at 11:35:20
> > Hi Kazoo,
>
> Here is another way to look at it. With depression, no matter how you look at it, there is no Big 'O' (orgasm, that is). I think that is something we can agree on. :-(
>
> Ted
Posted by Ted on August 8, 2001, at 12:40:27
In reply to You poor men! (np) » Ted, posted by Willow on August 8, 2001, at 12:14:28
Willow,
> > Here is another way to look at it. With depression, no matter how you look at it, there is no Big 'O' (orgasm, that is). I think that is something we can agree on. :-(
Not just men. Women also have the problem. However, women have the advantage that their partner can work with them until an orgasm is reached. We men will either die of exhaustion or lose sufficient arousal to continue.
Ted
Posted by kid_A on August 8, 2001, at 13:54:00
In reply to Re: Sadness over suicides-Everyone and lissa » Simcha, posted by kid_A on August 8, 2001, at 10:53:39
You can't string together a bunch of similar sounding truths and come to some logical conclusion that x and y are the same due to the similarities of those discrete and sepperate items, it just doesnt work that way, and nobody in the medical commnity would accept that kind of logic as proof of any means that it was even close to expressing some truth of any kind...I'm not trying to be overly argumentative about this, but to make these statements you need to have some sort of proof that these things are linked, not just that they seem like they are linked...
If I get bit by a dog, and that dog is black, it doesnt mean that if my friend gets bit by a dog, that dog will be black or purple or whatever, it just means that he was bit by another dog, and that it is possible to be bitten by dogs, yet not all dogs bite, and not all dogs that bite are black, though there are some similarties between the events they dont go very far to make any certainties about future predictions.
:)........ no flames, just good old debate! take care!!!
Posted by Ted on August 8, 2001, at 14:46:25
In reply to can i get a witness!? i say, can i.. anywayz..., posted by kid_A on August 8, 2001, at 13:54:00
OK, Kid & Kazoo, and others...
I guess the result of this debate is that we will have to agree to disagree.
I say organic.... You all say not.
That's OK -- I never agreed with anyone on anything else anyway. :-)
Ted
Posted by Willow on August 8, 2001, at 14:54:40
In reply to Re: can i get a witness!? i say, can i.. anywayz..., posted by Ted on August 8, 2001, at 14:46:25
When someone passes on after suffering with cancer etc do you feel the same type of grief?
Posted by mila on August 8, 2001, at 14:59:50
In reply to Re: can i get a witness!? i say, can i.. anywayz..., posted by Ted on August 8, 2001, at 14:46:25
> OK, Kid & Kazoo, and others...
>
> I guess the result of this debate is that we will have to agree to disagree.
>
> I say organic.... You all say not.
>
> That's OK -- I never agreed with anyone on anything else anyway. :-)
>
> Tedyou are not alone, Ted, I say 'organic' too, simply because there ARE organs for mind and emotions and these specific organs (and not others) are targeted by medical procedures: medications, surgery, ECT, etc.
mila
Posted by mila on August 8, 2001, at 15:15:33
In reply to Another perspective ..., posted by Willow on August 8, 2001, at 14:54:40
> When someone passes on after suffering with cancer etc do you feel the same type of grief?
That's a cool question, Willow. grief is not a single emotion, but a combination of at least two conflicting feelings(just as jealousy, for example).
When someone you love dies after suffering a long/painful illness, the feelings that make up 'grief' are pain and relief. Grieving after divorce is made up from feelings of freedom, devastation, and fear. Other losses such as loss of trust, loss of safety, loss of control of one's body (physical or sexual abuse) are followed by 'griefs' with their own constitution.
mila
Posted by Ted on August 8, 2001, at 15:31:06
In reply to Another perspective ..., posted by Willow on August 8, 2001, at 14:54:40
> When someone passes on after suffering with cancer etc do you feel the same type of grief?
In my opinion, there should be no suffering. There should be no limit to the amount of any medications that are necessary to make one comfortable. I support euthanasia for ending one's suffering. We won't let dogs or horses suffer; why would we want humans to suffer? I have a trust & will and in it are statements that I am not to be kept alive on life support. My wife and I have agreed that we will not allow the other to suffer.
Back to my original post... where I feel the most sadness is when someone young, popular, intellignet, etc., has killed themself without seeking help of any kind.
I have also met several women who have tried every med combo and long-term ECT with no success, not even partial success. One of these women is in obvious pain and has a living assistant to help her watch her children and do normal housekeeping chores. The assistant's *real* job is to prevent another suicide attempt. Would I support suicide/euthanasia in this case of obvious and unrelenting suffering? I am undecided, but I think I would.
Ted
Posted by kid_A on August 8, 2001, at 15:57:52
In reply to Another perspective ..., posted by Willow on August 8, 2001, at 14:54:40
> When someone passes on after suffering with cancer etc do you feel the same type of grief?
I'm not writing in the fist person, so for other people it may be different, Im noting this after I wrote the below, just to say that my point of view may not be everyones...
The grief of the illness itslef, the way that it radiates around the victim and effects everyone slowly gradually numbing you to the inevitable truth, you start with worry, then hope, then trying to cope, acceptance comes then of course death...
my mother's illness was more than she could handle, and i dont know if she could have had a better attitude throughout it all, she was brave, and to me, a hero... to suffer and to survive for as long as she did... i think of that as heroic, to me at least, it is...
By the time you reach the death stage you are so relived that the suffering has ended that the grief can be transitory, almost spike like... I really wasn't hit w/ the sadness of my own mothers death until later, (i was 18 at the time of her passing)... It leaves your emotions completely skewed and later I think you are left with just the emptiness that you know exists because someone you loved dearly is gone... the rage of intense grief that occurs when say someone is killed in a sudden accident doesnt seem to present itself... you grow accustomed to the idea of death, you begin to realise that the person you love may, or perhaps, will die...
im crying a bit now, i cant belive this, its sad to me still, 12 years past, but i guess there is no sell by date on grief...
k_A
Posted by kazoo on August 8, 2001, at 17:13:28
In reply to Re: the big 'O' versus the big non-'O' » kazoo, posted by Ted on August 8, 2001, at 11:07:05
Ahhhh, how simple everything would be *if* everything could be reduced in terms of "mechanics."
The fact is that moods, feelings, emotions are not tangible or mechanical items.
You can't put them in a box, or under a microscope to study them.
"To be depressed" and "To be in love" are basically on the same scale of recognition in that *both* are abstractions with no clear understanding as to what causes either.Premise 1: Diabetes is an organic illness
Premise 2: Depression is an organic illness
Conclusion: Diabetes is DepressionI don't think so.
> *** First proof ***
>
> Argument:
> Depression is an organic illness.
>
> Fact:
> Diabetes is an organic illness.
>
> Fact:
> Diabetes (type A) is caused by the lack of insulin production.
>
> Fact:
> Lack of insulin production is identical to lack of regulation unless the desired regulation level is zero.
>
> Fact:
> A living person requires the insulin regulation level to be greater than zero.
>
> Fact:
> Depression is caused by lack of regulation of serotonin and other neurotransmitters.
>
> Conclusion:
> By analogy, by lack of regulation of essential biochemicals, the process of diabetes is identical to the process of depression.
> QED.
>
> *** Second proof ***
>
> Argument:
> Depression is an organic illness.
>
> Fact:
> Diabetes is an organic illness.
>
> Fact:
> Diabetes (type B) is caused by the lack of the body's response to the insulin produced.
>
> Fact:
> Depression is caused by lack of receptor sensitivity to serotonin and other neurotransmitters.
>
> Conclusion:
> By analogy, by lack of sensitivity & reaction to essential biochemicals, the process of diabetes is identical to the process of depression.
> QED.
>
> *** end proofs ***
>
> btw, if you are not familiar with formal proofs, "QED" means "quod exempli demonstratum" or "which was demonstrated". It is used to end proofs.
>
>
>
>
> > > PS: btw, kazoo, depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, OCD, ADHD, etc., _ARE_ *organic* diseases just like AIDS, cancer, diabetes, hypertension, etc.
> >
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> > Organic v. Inorganic
> >
> > Brain v. Mind
> >
> > Disease v. Disorder
> >
> > How can depression, an affective emotional disorder, be classified as "organic"? Is the brain diseased? Or is the mind disordered?
Posted by JahL on August 8, 2001, at 18:16:59
In reply to Re: can i get a witness!? i say, can i.. anywayz..., posted by Ted on August 8, 2001, at 14:46:25
> OK, Kid & Kazoo, and others...
>
> I guess the result of this debate is that we will have to agree to disagree.
>
> I say organic.... You all say not.
>
> That's OK -- I never agreed with anyone on anything else anyway. :-)Teddy-boy...you're not alone.
My mind is too much of a mush @ present to get involved. However, whilst I could not disprove the enviromental/psycho-social stressor theory of depression I, & various members of my family are living *proof* that depression (BP in my case) can be, & often is, *entirely* organic in nature.
I think it's an important point; not to be dismissed lightly.
Ta,
J.
This is the end of the thread.
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