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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on September 16, 2008, at 13:46:19
I really am grateful for my therapist's genuine positive regard for me.
But there can be drawbacks.
My "therapist out of town" numbness predictably wore off this morning. So my session was all about how unfit I am, socially. How friends drop away. Whether I should contact the friend I've had since I was a girl, who I've always kept in sporadic contact with, but who I quit contacting when I realized that I was the only one to initiate contact. It eventually entered my hard brain that no contact was contact of a sort.
And I talked about my problems in church. I'd finally found a group of people who were accepting of me, despite my quirkiness. But now I fear I have shamed myself in their eyes, because of my unorthodox and somewhat heretical views. I'm afraid they won't like me anymore. I'm afraid I talk too much.
His reaction was just too positive. I know they try to bolster our confidence. And I know he's likely given up on changing me in any substantial way.
But these things are issues in my relating to others. There is something wrong. So many people reject me merely on sight. I'm ugly. I don't dress well. I don't conform on so many levels. I can't conform. I don't know how. The same with church. I have alienated most everyone I've met in church. My last sunday school prayed for my immortal soul. Literally. In front of me. Not by name, but by exact description.
But even with people who don't dislike me from the surface, I manage to do the wrong things somewhere down the line. Maybe I'm too rigid. Or too thoughtless.
I need to address those things. I don't need my therapist to admire or be amused by my reluctance to compromise my beliefs. I need him to help me find a way to manage to combine not compromising my beliefs while also being socially acceptable.
I don't need him to assume that any problems with friends must not be on my end. I need him to assume they are and help me find a way to improve.
Well, maybe I need a bit of both. Here's one person who isn't family and who has seen me in real life and who has put up with the best and worst of me, and who still likes and values me. I am not saying I don't find that valuable. I do.
Hence the mixed blessing.
Sigh. Of course it's more complicated than that. I find myself discovering that I'm not the person I used to be. I don't necessarily believe the same things or enjoy the same things I used to. I find myself struggling with that a lot, and it's part of why I feel so out of place everywhere. Neither fish nor fowl nor good red herring.
Posted by lucie lu on September 16, 2008, at 15:52:41
In reply to A blessing, but not unmixed, posted by Dinah on September 16, 2008, at 13:46:19
Dinah,
You sound unusually negative about yourself in this post. Is there a reason for that, for those views of yourself, for today?
I know what you mean by some sense of dissatisfaction with our T's expressions of supportiveness, encouragement, etc. Even though we know our T's are well intentioned, these things somehow just...don't...hit...the spot. Do they? So we exhort them to turn up the amplitude, and if they care they will try to, but it still falls short. I suspect that the take home is that no one else can make us feel something about ourselves that we are unable to feel ourselves.
You are just Dinah. And that is a very good thing to be, from what I see.
Lucie
Posted by onceupon on September 16, 2008, at 16:11:36
In reply to A blessing, but not unmixed, posted by Dinah on September 16, 2008, at 13:46:19
It seems that there's a point when positive regard just feels invalidating. And that doesn't seem any more helpful than negative regard that's invalidating. Does this fit for you? Is it something your therapist understands?
Posted by Dinah on September 16, 2008, at 16:57:44
In reply to Re: A blessing, but not unmixed » Dinah, posted by lucie lu on September 16, 2008, at 15:52:41
It's not really unusual for me to be negative about myself in this context.
I've always felt appropriate self regard meant being honest about my flaws and weaknesses as well as my strengths. Perhaps today they are filled with more than normal emotional reaction. Usually I'm pretty objective about it. But it's been a tough weekend.
I saw a picture of myself publicly displayed. Ugh.
I embarrassed myself by speaking too freely.
I'm feeling a bit of self loathing over my weight.
I think there was more as well, but my head hurts and I can't think too well.
The funny thing is that my therapist used to see these things about me too. He was reasonably open about it. I really don't think it's me who changed. It's just that as he has gotten to know me, he stopped seeing so much the objective person I present to the world. He started seeing "Dinah". When you start caring about someone, it *is* hard to be objective about them. You don't see the ugliness, or the awkwardness. You smile at the gaucheries and think "Yes, that's Dinah for you."
Or maybe I'm crediting his fondness for me too much. Maybe he just figures I am who I am and I'll never change, so he'll help me make the most of it. But isn't that an untherapeutic way of looking at it? Shouldn't he at least pretend to support my desire to change, even if he believes it will peter out over a short period of time?
Posted by lucie lu on September 16, 2008, at 17:08:34
In reply to Re: A blessing, but not unmixed » lucie lu, posted by Dinah on September 16, 2008, at 16:57:44
> The funny thing is that my therapist used to see these things about me too. He was reasonably open about it. I really don't think it's me who changed. It's just that as he has gotten to know me, he stopped seeing so much the objective person I present to the world. He started seeing "Dinah". When you start caring about someone, it *is* hard to be objective about them. You don't see the ugliness, or the awkwardness. You smile at the gaucheries and think "Yes, that's Dinah for you."Dinah, I think that is one of the most beautiful, lyrical descriptions of love I've heard in a while. How could it be anything else? Where do you suppose that idea came from?
((((Dinah))))
Posted by Dinah on September 16, 2008, at 17:08:44
In reply to Re: A blessing, but not unmixed » Dinah, posted by onceupon on September 16, 2008, at 16:11:36
I definitely feel that way!
I realized as I read your post that I had posted something very similar to this not too long ago. That my therapist overvalued me.
In that context, he was urging me to do something I didn't think I could do. He not only thought I could do it, but he waxed eloquent on why he thought I'd do it well. Some of what he said didn't fit my self image at all. And as it turned out, I couldn't do it.
Fortunately he didn't express disappointment in me over that. I had talked to him about how what he'd said had upset me, because it put expectations on me I didn't think I could meet. And that I was afraid when he saw who I really was, he'd be disappointed in me.
This is a bit different in that he isn't expressing the belief that I have nicer qualities than I actually have. It's more that he's seeing the bad qualities, but he's no longer seeing them as negatives. He now finds them sort of sideways positives.
I am swinging wildly on my interpretation of that. One minute I'm thinking he's just trying to help me stay positive about things I'm unlikely to change. The next minute I'm remembering the *feel* of what he said. It didn't feel rah-rah. It felt more like amused affection. The sort you might feel for an awkward friend who you totally accept and really care about, even though you recognize their difficulties.
Goodness knows, it's always nice to be "seen" and still be cared for. But occasionally I'd also like him to acknowledge that there are ways I really need to change. (Other than feeling better about myself.)
Posted by Dinah on September 16, 2008, at 17:13:00
In reply to Re: A blessing, but not unmixed » Dinah, posted by lucie lu on September 16, 2008, at 17:08:34
Yes, you're right.
In his own therapist and totally appropriate way, I think he loves me now. It's the same sort of spirit I use when I talk about him. If you just look at the words, it may seem to be criticism. But it isn't really.
It's terrible to complain about being loved. And I'm not really. I do consider it a great blessing.
But when it's your therapist, there are a few problems that come with that.
Still...
It's not like I'm going to ask him to stop. :)
Posted by Nadezda on September 16, 2008, at 23:18:00
In reply to Re: A blessing, but not unmixed » lucie lu, posted by Dinah on September 16, 2008, at 17:13:00
It's hard to be loved for who you are-- and-- to the contrary-- it's hard not to be loved, even if it's reassuring to know you can count on being seen objectively and more clearly accounted for.
I guess it's one of those dilemmas-- you can't have it all. On the whole, I think you've got the better of the two worlds-- Maybe your T can't reflect back to you your sense of your limitations, and the urgent sense of failings that you'd like to change, that also seem implacable. I can see why you'd like to know can judge better than you how likely you are to succeed--and can share that urgency, rather than feeling-- that it's all part of a wonderful, if flawed, person whom he accepts. Still, maybe he sees something you don't see yet; maybe he's ahead of you, and you are changing in ways that you don't see.
I have a feeling though that others, besides him, see something in your photo, and, more importantly, your face, that you cant perceive-- Maybe you have a charm and rawness that they struggle for. But whatever "they' think, I suspect it's a whole lot more complicated and non-monolithic than you imagine-- even if they do "pray for you." People have a way of keeping their thoughts to themselves, and going with the flow-- whatever their rebellious or dissenting ideas.
The Dinah I know here-- and I can't believe it isn't pretty connected to the real Dinah-- is worth a lot. And-- maybe I'm all wrong about this-- but I can't believe that people who know you don't have some inkling of that Dinah, too. Or, if you are changing, maybe you have moved to a new self, one who, for the moment, doesn't fit in so well-- but who may-- perhaps in new, unexpected ways, or in unexpected places.
Nadezda
Posted by Phillipa on September 16, 2008, at 23:40:15
In reply to Re: A blessing, but not unmixed --Dinah, posted by Nadezda on September 16, 2008, at 23:18:00
The Dinah here on babble is a very compassionate strong person in my opinion. There and it's the truth the whole truth. Love Phillipa
Posted by Daisym on September 17, 2008, at 1:36:31
In reply to Re: A blessing, but not unmixed --Dinah, posted by Nadezda on September 16, 2008, at 23:18:00
Sometimes I think we form an image of ourself that centers around our flaws - and it is hard to change because that means changing who we think we are. I often think of Captain Kirk when I think of this, "I want my pain; I need my pain; My pain is who I am."
But sometimes I think we might get (unconsciously even) over-invested in some of the things that are actually holding us back. You often speak of not fitting in because you choose to dress differently or wear you hair in a particular way. Have you figured out why you've chosen to do this and why you continue? If you've determined that it is getting in the way of your social life (which is what you've said) then why not change it? What is the payoff to you for not changing certain behaviors or making different choices? Perhaps this is the role you know - being "odd" -- and if you give it up, you won't know yourself. This is very scary. But it seems to me that it is coming up more often lately and it might be something to talk about with your therapist.
I'm not saying you have to change or compromise your ideals, or anything. I'm just suggesting that you take a look at some of your old organizing principles and decide if they are still serving you well.
And I say all this, knowing how painful it is to have a very realistic idea of how you look, how you are perceived by others and what it feels like to be different. I hope you know how much I care about WHO you are, not what you look like. But there is no denying that out in the real world, presentation carries weight and influences people.
Posted by Dinah on September 17, 2008, at 9:42:07
In reply to Re: A blessing, but not unmixed --Dinah, posted by Nadezda on September 16, 2008, at 23:18:00
You're right. I do have the better of the two worlds. Although I've always been aware of the tension between caring and having the distance to do the tough stuff needed in therapy sometimes.
But when I think back over all the years when I looked for caring from him. I've been through all the experiences with him. At the beginning I could feel that he didn't like me that much, although he always behaved well and even now would deny it if asked outright. Then later, when I was afraid I was just client number 4172 - and probably I was to some degree or another. Wanting to be a Jessica to him. Being afraid I never would be.
Maybe I just find it disconcerting, after all that, to really be able to feel that I am a Jessica to him. Not just know it intellectually based on his actions, but to feel it as well. Sometimes it's a bit scary to get what you want. Although why I couldn't say.
I really am not complaining. I'm so grateful. I was just a bit frustrated that I wasn't getting the response I needed at that moment.
Posted by Dinah on September 17, 2008, at 9:43:32
In reply to Re: A blessing, but not unmixed --Dinah, posted by Phillipa on September 16, 2008, at 23:40:15
Thanks, Phillipa.
I really am less anxious online, though, so my behavior is different in person. I sometimes wish I was Dinah. Also, of course, no one sees me.
Posted by Dinah on September 17, 2008, at 10:13:10
In reply to Re: A blessing, but not unmixed --Dinah, posted by Daisym on September 17, 2008, at 1:36:31
It does. I wish my therapist were as honest about that as you are. He really was until lately.
I will say that I don't dress as oddly as I did a few years ago. I think some of that was tied into Daddy's illness and my grief after his death. I was trying to turn back the clock, at least in myself, to the mod sixties where Daddies were big and strong and might be feared, but were never to be worried about.
I cut my hair a bit shorter, so that I rarely wear braids except around the house or maybe running errands. Braids are so comfortable. But I do often scrape my hair back in a ponytail. It's not odd looking, but it is unflattering. It's just too darn hot to wear my hair down. As fall and winter start (late and brief in this part of the world) I'll probably wear it down, pulled back from my face.
I even got over my feeling that I'm not worth a decent hair stylist and colorist. I figured that all my dogs are high maintenance, and I don't complain about their grooming bills. I can cut back someplace else and spend a bit of money on my own hair. Not that it makes a huge difference with hair like mine. It might be more a difference in my mind than anything else.
My clothes are more or less the same. Not odd looking as much as they are frumpy and cheap and rather unappealing. I dress in my best for church, of course. There may be one psychological reason for that. I don't think I'm worth anything nice. Until or unless I lose weight, I'm going to look awful in anything I wear. My stomach is revolting. I can't find decent bras in my size that don't feel like they were designed for purposes of torture. But mostly it's comfort and convenience. And heat tolerance. I can't work or concentrate when I'm uncomfortable. I probably still wear tennis shoes too often.
My physical presentation may be more unattractive now than odd. But the rest of me will always be a bit off. Social rhythms, odd ways of expressing myself, poor eye contact. And some nonstandard beliefs. Some of it is anxiety. But some of it is just me. It's not altogether a bad thing. My therapist has always said that my gift is to help others think about their beliefs. My husband enjoys my way of expressing myself, and I think my therapist might now too. But strangers just see the odd.
Thanks for taking it seriously, Daisy. It really is an issue. Not only to me but to my family as well. I don't like being an embarrassment to them.
I really really need to lose weight. I'd have way more incentive to look nice if I thought I could succeed. My family does not carry extra weight well. Many people can do it. But our features really don't lend themselves to it. And of course, we all run to fat.
I should say that my therapist does use positive reinforcement with me about my appearance, if I wear something other than my standard uniform.
Posted by Cal on September 18, 2008, at 6:19:49
In reply to Re: A blessing, but not unmixed --Dinah » Daisym, posted by Dinah on September 17, 2008, at 10:13:10
Personally, I;d have returned teh "favour" you recieved in sunday sch, and prayed for those that prayed for you LOL!! Sorry I have a very sick sense of humour!,
Posted by Dinah on September 18, 2008, at 14:59:49
In reply to Re: A blessing, but not unmixed --Dinah, posted by Cal on September 18, 2008, at 6:19:49
I was too taken aback to respond!
I'd known that I shocked them a bit. But they were nice enough not to be that open about it.
That week we had a guest minister since ours was out of town and she happened to choose our class to sit in. And we just happened to choose a bible section that was guaranteed to bring out my beliefs. I tried to be respectful, but in the end my beliefs however respectfully expressed, were probably heretical to traditionalists. And she prayed for me. No one objected, everyone said Amen, and I never returned to Sunday School until now. I guess I'm a bit afraid it will happen again.
If it ever comes up again though, I just may turn the tables. :)
Posted by Cal on September 19, 2008, at 10:34:17
In reply to Re: A blessing, but not unmixed --Dinah » Cal, posted by Dinah on September 18, 2008, at 14:59:49
> I was too taken aback to respond!
>
> I'd known that I shocked them a bit. But they were nice enough not to be that open about it.
>
> That week we had a guest minister since ours was out of town and she happened to choose our class to sit in. And we just happened to choose a bible section that was guaranteed to bring out my beliefs. I tried to be respectful, but in the end my beliefs however respectfully expressed, were probably heretical to traditionalists. And she prayed for me. No one objected, everyone said Amen, and I never returned to Sunday School until now. I guess I'm a bit afraid it will happen again.
>
> If it ever comes up again though, I just may turn the tables. :)
Hope I didn't offend you :-(
Posted by Dinah on September 19, 2008, at 10:38:47
In reply to Re: A blessing, but not unmixed --Dinah, posted by Cal on September 19, 2008, at 10:34:17
Not at all! You made me smile.
This is the end of the thread.
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