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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 13 to 37 of 37. Go back in thread:
Posted by crushedout on May 6, 2007, at 0:35:32
In reply to Re: revenge fantasies » crushedout, posted by Happyflower on May 6, 2007, at 0:29:18
that would be fine if i could find a way to shove it in her face and make sure it made her feel cr*ppy and inferior. otherwise, that's not revenge. that's just a good thing to do for myself.
Posted by Honore on May 6, 2007, at 10:01:28
In reply to Re: revenge fantasies » Happyflower, posted by crushedout on May 6, 2007, at 0:35:32
From what I've read, revenge hasn't really helped. And my concern would be that it won't.
The person you're trying to hurt may not be feeling any of the things you imagine-- because even though you believe that you're inflicting some sort of retribution on her, if you think about it more deeply, you're not. You (the person writing abusive or insulting comments on her blog)--not you, the person she badly mishandled a therapy relationship with-- is probably someone she thinks of quite differently from the way you imagine or want.
What scares me is that you're the one who's suffering, not her. And the suffering is self-inflicted.
What I fear is that the longer you pretend that you're inflicting some sort of pain on her, the longer you'll be lacerating yourself in this futile attempt to salve the hurt that someone inflicted on you long ago.
It's painful to read your posts, so I can only imagine the turmoil all this acting out of rage must cause in you.
For your own sake, I would try to step back and see if there isn't some way that you can take care of yourself, and make yourself more important than her-- rather than destroying yourself in this endless wish to hurt her and thereby to be made whole. It's not going to make you whole-- this revenge.
You're only continuing the relationship with her-- continuing to go through this pain in the hope that something somehow can be regained, which you've lost-- and which you never really had.
Honore
Posted by crushedout on May 6, 2007, at 10:06:13
In reply to Re: revenge fantasies » crushedout, posted by Honore on May 6, 2007, at 10:01:28
Honore,I haven't been abusive in any of my posts. And I'm not in pain (how many times do I need to say this?).
Your perception that I am in pain is your own projection.
My revenge fantasy is to write an honest letter, from me, and she would know who it was from. And it would only tell the truth and not attack. It would just state the facts and that she harmed me. Period.
And right now it's just a fantasy and I want to have it and I'm asking you guys to help me fantasize, not just tell me that I have to stop.
I am not hurting myself--you have to believe me. This is a good thing and it's something I have to go through.
Posted by crushedout on May 6, 2007, at 10:11:10
In reply to Re: revenge fantasies » crushedout, posted by Honore on May 6, 2007, at 10:01:28
also, you don't realize how insecure she is. I'm sure that my posts (which I repeat were not abusive--only honest and hurtful to the extent that the truth hurts) had some effect on her.that's all i wanted. i want to irritate her, make her questions herself, make her just feel a little bad.
i have little doubt i've already succeeded, and that makes me happy.
people think revenge, meanness, and anger are bad--but maybe sometimes they are healthy! they certainly are normal.
Posted by crushedout on May 6, 2007, at 10:24:13
In reply to Re: revenge fantasies » Daisym, posted by crushedout on May 6, 2007, at 0:04:44
I guess people are really uncomfortable with extreme anger and the idea of revenge, but this is something I'm going through and I need support for. This is a VERY healthy way for me to express all of this: here, to all of you. I get very testy when I feel like someone is discouraging me from expressing these desires because keeping them all in has been so destructive to me. Trust me. You have to believe me that I've been taking all this anger out on myself and right now I'm desperately trying to turn that around.I'm trying to do that with all of your support.
This is just an explanation for why I get cranky when people tell me what I'm doing is not healthy. What I was doing before wasn't healthy. I need to do this. Please help me to if you can. Otherwise, I don't need more lectures. They make me feel like a bad, dumb person. And I'm not.
Posted by Honore on May 6, 2007, at 10:35:05
In reply to why i'm touchy about this, posted by crushedout on May 6, 2007, at 10:24:13
We are trying to support you, crushedout.
I'm sorry if my attempt to be supportive didn't feel like support.
That's really all I can say, because when I personally have had that much anger at someone, it's been painful to me. So I'm speaking from my personal experience. I tend to believe that others are more like me than not-- but that may be a projection, I don't know.
Honore
Posted by crushedout on May 6, 2007, at 10:40:28
In reply to Re: why i'm touchy about this » crushedout, posted by Honore on May 6, 2007, at 10:35:05
Honore,
You don't need to apologize. I knew that your intent was to help. I was just trying to explain why that sort of help is not what I need.
I'm fairly comfortable with anger, oddly enough. I know a lot of people aren't. And I think it's healthy to feel it, and that there are healthy ways to deal with it. I'm trying to do that. But I can't just make it go away before I'm ready. Otherwise, I'll just be right back here where I am in six months, or three years, or god knows.
I'm trying so hard to put this behind me. I think this could be my best shot.
crushed
Posted by Honore on May 6, 2007, at 11:19:27
In reply to Re: why i'm touchy about this » Honore, posted by crushedout on May 6, 2007, at 10:40:28
I personally find anger to be a painful emotion, as I was saying.
I'm not sure why, but I feel partly afraid of it, and partly angry at myself, even when I'm angry at the other person, as well as a deeper sense of pain and loss underneath that, and fear of more loss, when I'm angry.
So, while I may find some release in turning to a kind of greater rage, in which all those contradictory and frightening emotions are wiped out in my complete negation of the other person-- I guess that's what happens-- I'm not sure that that extreme emotion-- when I give in to it-- gets me away. I think it might leave me in the same place-- back in the more scary, and confusing anger that I escaped, or even back in the old sense of connection that was unhealthy.
I'm not sure-- I'm trying to figure it out myself.
If the other person is there, and is working with me through the rage or anger-- I've found some other places. But without the other person's help, anger is one of those things that maybe just has to burn itself out over long periods of time-- if it gets that intense.
I find that that's happened (the burning down and eventually more or less out)-- but I'm sure it would flare up if something reminded me of the other person in a more immediate way. I guess that's why it's good to be away-- to prevent there being anything that causes the anger and hurt to come closer to consciousness.
Maybe that's what happened here, when you found the blog. The rage and hurt were burning down-- and will continue to, I'm sure-- but the blog reawakened some of the terrible feelings of the connection.
So you're working them through in the best way you can.
I wondered, when did you find the blog-- approximately. (I wouldn't want you to give any identifying information, because I don't think it would be good for her to identify you, even if she couldn't take any action.) I just meant in terms of how long you've been going through this--
Honore
Posted by crushedout on May 6, 2007, at 11:29:08
In reply to Re: why i'm touchy about this » crushedout, posted by Honore on May 6, 2007, at 11:19:27
It's been 2 1/2 years since i've interacted with her in any way. Since I left her as my therapist and moved on to my new one. And we haven't had contact since.
The thing is the blog didn't reignite any previous anger: because i never had any before. That's why it's so important that I go through this now. Anger is an important stage I think in the healing process.
Posted by Honore on May 6, 2007, at 13:41:13
In reply to Re: why i'm touchy about this » Honore, posted by crushedout on May 6, 2007, at 11:29:08
Anger is a stage, it's necessary and I suppose the question always is what to do with the anger.
Maybe what I'm feeling is that there isn't any one answer, or one thing you can do to completely extinguish it, or find some satisfying way of closure.
I suppose I might also wonder if anger makes you feel so good, do you want to feel angry for a long time, or is it a feeling you want to stop having?
If you did ruin your ex-T's life, do you really think it would make you feel better? I'm just not sure how it could, but I'd like to understand somewhat where you see it taking you. I've never tried to get any sort of revenge, beyond thinking bad thoughts and downgrading someone in my own estimation, or possibly telling other people the bad things I feel they've done to me. You've done that here, and I guess it didn't help that much. I dont know, but it seems dangerous to me to take revenge-- I feel as if it would be hard to live with the feeling that I was being so ruthless or destructive, even if I felt wronged. (I want to say I've been in situations like the one you were in with your T, so I'm not completely without any knowledge of how destructive therapy, or other people in powerful positions, can be.)
Could you say exactly what you imagine you would feel a day or a week after you ruined your ex T's life (as you had said you'd like to, if that is what you would like)? Do you think that really would take away whatever it was/ or is that causes you to want the revenge?
I'm really asking, because I'm not quite sure how one would feel after ruining someone else's life-- no matter what they did. Would it really feel good?
Honore
Posted by muffled on May 6, 2007, at 16:07:29
In reply to Re: why i'm touchy about this » Honore, posted by crushedout on May 6, 2007, at 11:29:08
Random ones...
I just trying to keep myself busy and out of trouble.
But I was cruising the archives bout your T, and those stupid archives are hard to dig thru, but I found some stuff. And as near as i can figger it would seem your T made sad bad errors in judgement. It seems she tried to be honest with you, but then maybe she screwed up and didn't handle it well. So beyond that, I'm not sure what happened? What have I missed? IS she pretty honest? IS she pretty sensitive? IS she the devil incarnate? Or did she just screw
up badly? Did she try and hurt you on purpose? Or again, was she just human? Its seems you got under her skin some? In which case she must have cared some?
So I don't think I found the posts that contain info about where it got to the point where you have such a need for revenge towards her? Where has this need for revenge COME from? What did she do that brought such intensity of anger towards her. WAS she evil? or was she just a screwup? Evil should be avoided,stupidity, well, mebbe just pity them their stupidness. I'm kinda stupid lotsa times, but I truly don't ever consciously mean to hurt noone....
I think maybe thats why so many are maybe missing the boat with this thread, cuz we don't understand what is the background to all this?
Take care, hope you can feel better soon.
Muffled
Posted by Dinah on May 7, 2007, at 18:41:11
In reply to Re: why i'm touchy about this » Honore, posted by crushedout on May 6, 2007, at 11:29:08
What does your therapist think about it?
My discomfort has more to do with your investing so much of yourself in this than the actual notion of revenge. I think in the end I choose not to take revenge, but I have been known to while away some time fantasizing about it.
Does your current therapist think it's a healthy use of your emotional capital?
Posted by crushedout on May 7, 2007, at 19:22:11
In reply to Re: why i'm touchy about this » crushedout, posted by Dinah on May 7, 2007, at 18:41:11
She doesn't presume to know. She accepts what I tell her: which is that this feels like something I need to go through, that it feels satisfying, and that it feels healthy.She realizes that this is just a fantasy at this point, and that I'm not going to do anything too crazy without thinking and talking it through carefully first.
> What does your therapist think about it?
>
> My discomfort has more to do with your investing so much of yourself in this than the actual notion of revenge. I think in the end I choose not to take revenge, but I have been known to while away some time fantasizing about it.
>
> Does your current therapist think it's a healthy use of your emotional capital?
>
>
Posted by littleone on May 7, 2007, at 21:32:45
In reply to revenge fantasies, posted by crushedout on May 5, 2007, at 20:33:21
Hi crushed,
I don’t want to enter into an argument about whether or not you should or shouldn’t entertain these fantasies. Please know that I have been listening to you – just haven’t had the words to respond. However, I now do have a couple of things to show you.
I’m not sure if you’re aware of the inconsistent message that is coming across in your posts. And I’m not going to nit pick words or exact meanings. I’m just talking about the underlying feeling/message in your post. And I wanted to show it to you to help you see maybe why some babblers are concerned about this.
Just in this thread you’ve said:
> My revenge fantasy is to write an honest letter, from me, and she would know who it was from. And it would only tell the truth and not attack. It would just state the facts and that she harmed me. Period.
> that's all i wanted. i want to irritate her, make her questions herself, make her just feel a little bad.
> I would prefer instead to let her know what she did in as compassionate a way as possible, so that i might be heard, and hope that she would learn from it. but since that doesn't seem possible, i just want to be mean. like i said before: i want to destroy her life. or if not destroy then just make it a bit sh*ttier for a while.
> i want to have an effect on her life. i want to mess it up. i want to make her sorry.
These four comments have very different messages and intensities behind them. I think that perhaps you might want to more fully understand what exactly it is that your head and your heart are wanting out of this.
There was something else that jumped out at me. You said:
> that would be fine if i could find a way to shove it in her face and make sure it made her feel cr*ppy and inferior. otherwise, that's not revenge. that's just a good thing to do for myself.
And my immediate thought was that perhaps you feel/felt cr*ppy and inferior over your interactions/fallout with her and were trying to push those feelings on to her. It was just a random thought I had. Then I saw you post this:
> Otherwise, I don't need more lectures. They make me feel like a bad, dumb person. And I'm not.
And I thought that bad/dumb are pretty close to cr*ppy/inferior. Do you think you’re trying to project your negative feelings out on to her? No need to answer, it was just a thought I had. The other thing is, this might also be part of why you seem to be having trouble accepting come babblers comments. If you read them and then feel like a bad, dumb person, then that could be re-enacting how you’ve felt in some interactions with your ex-T (and of course the obvious question is whether this re-enacts interactions with a parent).
I just wanted to re-iterate that none of this is a criticism of you or what you are doing/saying/etc. I simply showed you these things in case they can help with your understanding of the situation.
Posted by crushedout on May 7, 2007, at 21:39:51
In reply to Re: revenge fantasies » crushedout, posted by littleone on May 7, 2007, at 21:32:45
littleone,i don't find this helpful. i am expressing my feelings. they don't need to be consistent and i can contradict myself. and you're taking them out of context. some of these things are realistic possibilities; others are me just venting.
i just want support. what is this supposed to do to help me?
Posted by Dinah on May 7, 2007, at 21:51:38
In reply to Re: revenge fantasies » littleone, posted by crushedout on May 7, 2007, at 21:39:51
What would helpful and supportive look like to you?
Posted by crushedout on May 7, 2007, at 21:57:12
In reply to Re: revenge fantasies » crushedout, posted by Dinah on May 7, 2007, at 21:51:38
There is no one answer to that question. I just don't like being condescended to, and I don't think it's helpful to tell me that I've contradicted myself.Other than that, there are a lot of different options. And I've found certain posts very supportive and helpful. I don't think it's nice to point out which ones at this point.
I found your previous post was helpful and didn't condescend to me. This one seems to be asking something unfair. If I knew exactly what I wanted to hear, why would I bother to post at all?
Posted by crushedout on May 7, 2007, at 22:01:20
In reply to Re: revenge fantasies » crushedout, posted by littleone on May 7, 2007, at 21:32:45
on the one hand, littleone, you say you don't want to argue. but then you take all my words out of context and say i'm contradicting myself. if that's not an invitation to argue, i don't know what is.i'm not interested in defending myself. i guess i'll deal with these feelings on my own. thanks anyway, guys.
Posted by Dinah on May 7, 2007, at 22:04:49
In reply to Re: revenge fantasies » Dinah, posted by crushedout on May 7, 2007, at 21:57:12
I think everyone is trying to be helpful and supportive, crushed.
I certainly didn't mean to be unfair.
Posted by Dinah on May 7, 2007, at 22:07:43
In reply to Re: revenge fantasies » littleone, posted by crushedout on May 7, 2007, at 22:01:20
> on the one hand, littleone, you say you don't want to argue. but then you take all my words out of context and say i'm contradicting myself. if that's not an invitation to argue, i don't know what is.
Please be sensitive to the feelings of others, even if yours are hurt. Please don't jump to conclusions about others.
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Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
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Posted by crushedout on May 7, 2007, at 22:08:30
In reply to Re: revenge fantasies » crushedout, posted by Dinah on May 7, 2007, at 22:04:49
I don't doubt that they are trying. But I'm telling you that certain things don't help. One is quoting me back at myself to try to prove something about my lack of consistency. I am not saying that anyone had evil intentions.Just try to put yourself in my shoes. Would you enjoy being condescended to or challenged for inconsistency?
Posted by crushedout on May 7, 2007, at 22:09:38
In reply to Please follow civility guidelines » crushedout, posted by Dinah on May 7, 2007, at 22:07:43
That's really unfair. I was just stating what happened.
Posted by sunnydays on May 7, 2007, at 22:25:32
In reply to Re: revenge fantasies » Dinah, posted by crushedout on May 7, 2007, at 22:08:30
I'm not sure littleone was trying to prove you were inconsistent. I think she was just trying to give you food for thought. If you don't think you were inconsistent, then it's quite possible you weren't. I have said things that on the face of it would look extremely contradictory, but in my head they made perfect sense. I think littleone's post was just an observation to give you something to think about if you chose to, not trying to force something on you. As is this post. I'm seriously just trying to explain where I saw her as coming from. You can take my opinion or leave it, and it won't hurt my feelings, I am not trying to condescend to you or anything. So if you don't agree with this post, there's no need to defend yourself, since this is just something for you to think about. No response is necessary.
sunnydays
Posted by crushedout on May 7, 2007, at 22:26:51
In reply to Re: Please follow civility guidelines » Dinah, posted by crushedout on May 7, 2007, at 22:09:38
I take back the whole thread, ok? Just delete it all and leave me the f*ck alone.I don't need this right now.
Posted by crushedout on May 7, 2007, at 23:54:53
In reply to Re: Please follow civility guidelines, posted by crushedout on May 7, 2007, at 22:26:51
That wasn't directed at anyone in particular, and especially not you sunnydays (I hadn't seen your post when I wrote that).Let's just discontinue the conversation, though. It's obviously not really productive for any of us.
This is the end of the thread.
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