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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by daisym on October 7, 2004, at 18:38:52
I want to say up front that this is a shameless plea for support and help. I'm trying so hard to understand why some things just come pouring out sometimes.I went into the session today knowing I was stuck and knowing that my youngerself wanted to talk. She really wanted something but I wasn't sure what it was. And I wanted her to get it out because the tension of holding her was just too much. So we worked at it, trying to get her in the room, for me to back off and just let her talk. It took awhile but she finally was able to talk more or less directly, about a particularly troublesome incident of csa. It wasn't the "worse" thing, but to her it feels like the most devastating. There were virtually no tears, just a struggle to explain something she had no words for.
At the end of the session, my therapist asked me how "I" felt about what she said. I said it was amazingly painful to hear her anguish. But that I felt now exactly how she felt then. And I told him I really was struggling to get through everyday and I had finally reached a point where I though medication was the answer. Because it was just too painful to bear anymore. He asked me a number of questions and agreed that this might be the time to add in medications and he would help me get that set up. But then I backed off, because I realized it meant talking to someone else about all of this. He said we could talk more about it on Monday. But he wanted to know if I was thinking about suicide more...more than ideation? So we talked about that too. And I really started to fall apart. He asked if I had a plan (yes) and asked me to walk him through it. Then, have I ever come close? (yes) and how did I talk myself out of it? Then he asked if I thought he should call my husband (no). So he made me promise to call him first and told me he would be devastated if anything happened to me. And some part of me asked him if I did call, would he would tell me not to, Or, would he be mad that I was thinking about it... He said OF COURSE, he would tell me not to, that he wanted me to hang on and stay safe. I told him I felt really stupid for having this conversation, it felt overly-dramatic. But he looked so sad and concerned.
Now, several hours later, I'm thinking back on that part of the conversation and it feels like the younger part of me was still out and talking, even if I didn't completely realize it. Because she was suicidal back then, thinking it was the only way to escape from all her badness. Those feelings came through strongly today.
The question is, can "she" make "me" feel suicidal and hopeless now? Because the emotions are all mixed up and confused. I don't know how to make myself calm down, put it away and feel better.
Posted by Dinah on October 7, 2004, at 19:36:50
In reply to Suic. Feelings /attached to age states? (trigger), posted by daisym on October 7, 2004, at 18:38:52
My therapist and I have had the exact same conversations lately. Fortunately he understands how important to me to keep up the facade of being ok. So he works with alternatives. And I did offer him the gift of calling him and letting him help if I thought I was going to do it. Which then leaves the immense question of at what point am I sure enough to call him. I'm not sure we've worked that one out yet.
But yes, in my case there can be "leakage" between ego states. So sometimes it gets confusing. Especially when I'm not thinking clearly enough to sort it out.
I hope you feel better soon, Daisy.
Posted by mandinka on October 7, 2004, at 19:44:32
In reply to Suic. Feelings /attached to age states? (trigger), posted by daisym on October 7, 2004, at 18:38:52
If you really feel for her then you will get into her emotional shoes and resonate her emotional state. That's one form of countertransference that is the basis of empathy.
2nd possibility: Her stuff brought up on an unconscious level some of your own unprocessed problems. Maybe you should try working through those feelings and see where they will lead you.
3rd possibility. You wrote that you felt stuck and you were trying to get through every day. I don't know if you realize that these are birth metaphors. I know that people who almost died during birth f.e. because of umbilical cord strangulation are much more likely later on to have suicical thoughts - it's a way of reenacting the original trauma. When you get angry do you freeze in impotent rage? What about road rage (feeling stuck in traffic)? Driving is a metaphor of birth and so is elevator riding. Did you ever get stuck in an elevator and flew into panic? Maybe you never learned to swim, because you were afraid of oxygen deprivation? These are just some possible signs of problems during birth and earlier.
Birth and prenatal trauma has a very diffuse but all-encompassing quality. It creates the basis of the way we cope with life and the way we feel in general - hopeless (if our efforts during birth failed) or overly aggressive (if we fought very hard to live and succeeded). A part of you tries later to recreate the trauma situation to find a new, better ending to it. Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea for you to find out how your birth looked like. Just remember that sometimes even the mother is clueless.
Try reading Arthur Janov and especially William Emerson - he's a specialist on pre and perinatal trauma.
Take care, daisy.
Posted by Poet on October 7, 2004, at 20:21:05
In reply to Suic. Feelings /attached to age states? (trigger), posted by daisym on October 7, 2004, at 18:38:52
(((((((Daisy))))))
Your quest for understanding your various selves is not a shameless plea for help, it's just a request with no shame involved.
I suspect my youngerself is who caused me to quit therapy and just plain give up on myself. Unlike, brave Daisy, I can't let her talk in therapy. I can't even let her write it down and have it read.
I think those things came pouring out because olderself was ready to let youngerself let go of them. Maybe her suicidal ideation isn't a physical death wish, but the death of the pain about all the really bad things that happened to her? Letting her talk is a way to release that pain, so maybe that's why she came out and stayed out?
I wish I had real answers and not just ideas with question marks.
Poet
Posted by Daisym on October 7, 2004, at 21:34:24
In reply to Re: Suic. Feelings /attached to age states? (trigger), posted by mandinka on October 7, 2004, at 19:44:32
Good things to think about. I studied with Emerson when I was getting certified as a childbirth educator. He taught several prenatal psych course at the University in our area.
It is weird stuff, but very powerful.
Posted by Daisym on October 7, 2004, at 21:42:07
In reply to Re: Suic. Feelings /attached to age states? (trigg » daisym, posted by Poet on October 7, 2004, at 20:21:05
Poet,
I know you are having a rough time of your own. I talked to my therapist a little while ago, he was "checking in" as always...and he said he thinks two things. That yes, these are partially her feelings. She was sooo hopeless and lost. But he also pointed out that the reason she is talking is because she has him. And that I haven't let go yet, I still think I shouldn't lean on him. So I get overwhelmed, feel alone and helpless. Especially at times like these, when work is too much and hubby is worse again. (I hate prednisone!) So he thinks she was "telling on me" first through a dream over the weekend and then today, when the conversation swung around to this. He didn't think it was dramatic at all, in fact he referred to having to pry it all out of me with a crowbar. So while there is so much pain and grief, about the csa, about my husband's health, etc., etc. she doesn't really want to die. As you said, she wants the pain to stop.
It is just so complicated and I'm so use to pretending that everything is OK, that it surprises me when i really look at how badly I'm feeling.
I'm not brave. I'm a big baby. I just happen to have a therapist who is OK with that.
You'll get there. It is hard. But stopping and starting is part of the process. Thanks for the support. I need all I can get.
Posted by Daisym on October 7, 2004, at 21:47:21
In reply to Re: Suic. Feelings /attached to age states? (trigger), posted by Dinah on October 7, 2004, at 19:36:50
<<<<Which then leaves the immense question of at what point am I sure enough to call him. I'm not sure we've worked that one out yet>>>>>
EXACTLY! How do you know? I felt really stupid today, told him that. Yes, these are my thoughts. But would I? Sometimes I scare myself because I don't feel completely in charge. But to call and say, "Ummm...gee..." I don't know. I promise to at least call and tell him my thoughts. He said to let him worry about the rest of it. We needed to talk about the thoughts, even if they were never intended to be actions. Besides, I've looked straight at him and told him that if I was truly sure, I'd call noone. None of this cry for help stuff. I'm crying for help NOW...before I do anything.
Dinah, I know I said this elsewhere, but I am so sorry about your doggy. I know how special Harry was to you. The fact that you took the time to post to me, well, it means a lot. Is there anything I can do for you? You are in my thoughts tonight.
Posted by antigua on October 8, 2004, at 11:47:33
In reply to Re: Suic. Feelings /attached to age states? (trigg » Poet, posted by Daisym on October 7, 2004, at 21:42:07
(((Daisy)))
It's o.k to be a big baby. You take care of so many people in your life that you do need someone to take care of you. Your T is there for you.
I thought of you last night. I spent most of the day in bed yesterday (until the kids got home), ruminating about my situation. I didn't feel guilty because I needed the time alone, to rest and deal with the next stage. But last night I got up and made chocolate chip cookies, ostensibly for the kids, but really for me. Comfort food. Mmmm, maybe mashed potatoes tonight!
Go ahead, be a big baby and demand your share of attention.
best,
antigua
Posted by Aphrodite on October 8, 2004, at 14:14:19
In reply to Suic. Feelings /attached to age states? (trigger), posted by daisym on October 7, 2004, at 18:38:52
So sorry to hear this, Daisy. I think the overwhelm of unfamiliar and intense emotions naturally leaves us looking for escape in any form. I'm glad you will call him when you're in that mode of thinking. I consider my chronic suicidal feelings to be individual pieces of new trauma, and it really takes its toll. It really is best to let him help so that new wounds aren't created.
I just have one word of caution about the medication in the mix of all of this now that I have seen 2 terrible psychiatrists in 2 weeks. I too worried about additional exposure, but these psychiatrists were so medically and biologically oriented it didn't feel the same. If feel more like I was talking about a goiter;) Then again, they were yucky doctors and I know many do care about you psychologically. OK for my word of caution -- several years ago when I had my first bout of suicidal ideation, I took an AD and it increased the feelings and scared me silly. I was getting it from a GP and it was probably not the right medication for me. The recent doctors gave me meds with side effects I simply cannot tolerate. I do not have room on my plate to deal with physical problems. I just want to say that sometimes going the medication route can bring its own set of issues. I'm sure your T will give you good guidance, though. I understand for some people the right medication can change everything.
Posted by Daisym on October 8, 2004, at 21:07:18
In reply to Re: Suic. Feelings /attached to age states? (trigg, posted by antigua on October 8, 2004, at 11:47:33
I made spicy/pumpkin muffins this morning for a meeting, they smelled really good. Like fall. My kids were disappointed that they were going to work with me.
It seems that while "I" am not good at demanding attention, "she" is really good at it. There was more late last night (early this morning?) that came out. I'm still astonished at how things were fragmented and how they come back. I wrote it all down, and this time, I wrote it ALL down, body parts and all. I've never been able to do that before, as clearly as this. I felt completely detached from it, like I was taking dictation from someone else. I still feel completely detached, and spookily calm.
So I think I'll get through the weekend OK. I'm glad you rested. You need to do that.
Posted by Daisym on October 8, 2004, at 21:25:30
In reply to Re: Suic. Feelings /attached to age states? (trigg » daisym, posted by Aphrodite on October 8, 2004, at 14:14:19
I think probably the hardest part is that I don't know what he can DO to help me. These are my thoughts and I have to fight against them. I want to be careful to not look like I'm crying wolf and/or to dump too much on him at one time. I'm sharing some seriously awful stuff right now, so it seems unfair that he has to worry about a hysterical, suicidal woman too. (Even though I feel like a little kid,and not a grown woman.)
As far as meds go, I'm not sure what to do. Yesterday I was in so much pain and needed some relief. Today I'm completely numb. I told my therapist during the check in call today about a new memory that came up last night. It is a pretty horrible one, but it makes a lot of other things make sense, finally. I related it in a detached, clinical way. I know this worried him.
He made me promise to (PROMISE!) to take sleeping meds tonight. He said he thinks I've boxed the emotions and that is fine, good even, but if I don't sleep when I get past the shock of all this, I won't be able to handle it. And that is when people get seriously suicidal.
But it seems to me, right now, that all the past stuff just needs to be put away. It doesn't matter anymore what I remember. And it doesn't matter if there is more of this. It is all the same. It was bad, it is over and I need to get over it. It hurts too much to keep peeling this onion. I have enough to worry about in the here and now. So, as long as I can, I'm going to bury it. I suspect my therapist won't let me do that for very long, but between now and Monday it feels like a good plan.
Posted by antigua on October 9, 2004, at 12:33:39
In reply to Meds » Aphrodite, posted by Daisym on October 8, 2004, at 21:25:30
Daisy,
You sound just like me. Put the past away because it's too much to handle now. My only goal right now is to stabilize myself. I will go back to the hard parts, but I have to put myself back together again before I will have any strength. I'm very nervous about falling apart but I know that I have resources to call on if need be. You do too.About the meds: I only use Pdocs (two in 7 years, only because one moved away) that my T has worked with, knows and has a great relationship with--I don't trust anyone else because I don't need any more complicated relationships in my life. So, if your T recommends meds, I'm sure he has someone good to recommend.
I'm going to go think about what I'm going to cook today...
best,
antigua
Posted by Dinah on October 10, 2004, at 22:05:59
In reply to Suic. Feelings /attached to age states? (trigger), posted by daisym on October 7, 2004, at 18:38:52
Daisy, I don't know how I could forget this, but there is one HUGE link for me.
My emotional self is very invested in knowing that I could kill myself if I wanted to. It all goes back to that time as a teen when my mother gave me the knife and more or less dared me to go through with my threats. I found that so humiliating that it's a major point of pride to my emotional self that I and my therapist realize that I'm not afraid to kill myself.
So that's a very definite ego state link.
Posted by daisym on October 10, 2004, at 22:59:45
In reply to Re: Suic. Feelings /attached to age states? (trigger) » daisym, posted by Dinah on October 10, 2004, at 22:05:59
I think I've decided it definately is. I think I'm feeling old feelings from back then.
But also, there is a huge amount of adult pain that tells me I'm not keeping up and I'm no good to anyone like this. Maybe that is pride? But mostly it is not being a burden to my friends and family. Because to me this is the WORST, WORST thing I could do to them.
This is the end of the thread.
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