![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 75 to 99 of 193. Go back in thread:
Posted by Toph on July 3, 2013, at 12:00:04
In reply to Re: 'real' life vs a refuge, posted by Dr. Bob on July 2, 2013, at 16:09:16
I hope this isn't a diversion, but I am confused about in which direction Babble is going. For years many of us tried to get Bob to loosen the rules. It led to a more self-regulated Babble, at least in my distant observation. Now it seems that we are talking about rules again. When a poster offends or hurts another poster it seems that many people here quickly support the injured party and others confront the offender. Perhaps I have been a little direct in the criticism I have given Lou of late. We know each other for years and I'd like to think we have a kind of respect for each other. I'm pretty sure we both understand by now that we won't change each other. I guess I am trying to say that I still like the changes in Babble, and how we collectively deal with problems with only slight oversight by Bob. I think this thread is a good example of a community trying to work through the tension of free expression and restraint, individuality and community, autonomy and supervision.
Posted by 10derheart on July 3, 2013, at 12:52:29
In reply to Re: Trying to practice what I've been preaching, posted by Willful on July 3, 2013, at 10:36:17
>>I note your posts like to be pithy, and witty, and to raise yet another "profound" question as if from outside, while we mortals continue the old struggle.. You say it exhausts you? Well this all exhausts me. And bores me, and feels like being stuck. And being stuck is the one of the worst thing you can feel in therapy or life.
Beautifully said. Thank you for your authentic and articulate post.
Posted by SLS on July 3, 2013, at 13:39:27
In reply to Re: 'real' life vs a refuge, posted by Toph on July 3, 2013, at 12:00:04
> Now it seems that we are talking about rules again.
I don't recall a group consensus conceptualizing moderation as being an all-or-nothing proposition. I don't think very many people were lobbying for a complete cessation of moderation. I wasn't.
> I guess I am trying to say that I still like the changes in Babble, and how we collectively deal with problems with only slight oversight by Bob.
What would "slight oversight" look like? Would it include posting blocks?
Is there currently any posting activity that you feel should require oversight? If not, could you give an example of what type of activity would require oversight?
Personally, I like the idea of having posting blocks available as a tool for moderation. My major complaints in the past had been that diction and grammar were scrutinized too closely and that blocks were excessively long.
- Scott
Posted by Toph on July 3, 2013, at 17:07:30
In reply to Oversight. » Toph, posted by SLS on July 3, 2013, at 13:39:27
I am not a regular poster here anymore sadly, so I don't feel competent to give you the details you request. One specific I am familiar with is obtaining restraining orders at work for my clients who are harassed by others. It seems to me that regardless of intention Lou often harasses posters who seek advice regarding psychotropic medication with his strident beliefs about these meds. His associations between parents treating children and infanticide is agregiously hurtful. Orders of Protection in my world last 4 years and unfortunately have limited effect in protecting victims from people with little regard for the law. Blocks have been effective here when used judiciously, consistently and as a last resort. I would hope that there would be means of involving the community in this process though I'm afraid I can't offer a suitable model off the top of my head.
Posted by SLS on July 3, 2013, at 17:21:48
In reply to Re: Oversight., posted by Toph on July 3, 2013, at 17:07:30
Thanks, Toph. I value your insights and experience.
- Scott---------------------------------------------
> I am not a regular poster here anymore sadly, so I don't feel competent to give you the details you request. One specific I am familiar with is obtaining restraining orders at work for my clients who are harassed by others. It seems to me that regardless of intention Lou often harasses posters who seek advice regarding psychotropic medication with his strident beliefs about these meds. His associations between parents treating children and infanticide is agregiously hurtful. Orders of Protection in my world last 4 years and unfortunately have limited effect in protecting victims from people with little regard for the law. Blocks have been effective here when used judiciously, consistently and as a last resort. I would hope that there would be means of involving the community in this process though I'm afraid I can't offer a suitable model off the top of my head.
Posted by Phillipa on July 3, 2013, at 18:42:21
In reply to Re: Oversight. » Toph, posted by SLS on July 3, 2013, at 17:21:48
Did a google search on this term frequently used by said poster and found a lot of hits mostly to do with editing documents. Anyone know a simple definition of the word? I do not see things removed just not mentioned? Phillipa
Posted by sigismund on July 4, 2013, at 8:33:16
In reply to Re: Oversight., posted by Toph on July 3, 2013, at 17:07:30
The problems of years ago were not helped by the style of moderation then which seemed to inflame rather than diffuse situations. That said, it does not follow that no moderation is better. Bob does seem to be trying something new which may have possibilities. With Lou it is much more a question of tact, appropriateness (and sometimes kindness) than of his views.
Posted by Twinleaf on July 4, 2013, at 14:26:02
In reply to Re: Oversight., posted by sigismund on July 4, 2013, at 8:33:16
I appreciate Dr.Bob giving an appropriate PCB to Lou, especially because I think he is presently exploring how some of these things might go if we try to perform these functions ourselves. Although one PBC (or even many) is unlikely to change Lou's behavior, it does make it clear to other posters that our site does have ethical and interpersonal standards. A poster like Laura952, who is dealing with major family stressors should not be subjected to further stress through her attempts to obtain knowledge and support from Psychobabble. There may be many others like her who decided against posting altogether.
I appreciate what Bob has already done, and hope that he will continue to give PBCs when indicated. This will make posters such as Laura's participation here much safer and more constructive.
I must say that I too have been very confused by Dr. Bob's recent posts. It seems we are never communicating about the same topic. If it is true that he wants us to take over some of the administrative tasks ourselves, how can we possibly do so if we are asked to bury all concerns and complaints in private notifications to him which are not acknowledged or responded to? This whole situation has become a recipe for disaster. So I do hope Dr. Bob continues to return to a minimal degree of oversight. It's extremely important that new posters know that there are fair ethical and social standards here. We older posters also need to know that they are still here.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 4, 2013, at 19:22:28
In reply to Re: Trying to practice what I've been preaching, posted by Willful on July 3, 2013, at 10:36:17
> the voice of the skeptic is important. to validate that part of us that is skeptical.
>
> uh... if i had to make a decision about what a dependent was going to do... decide whether or not my kid would or would not take this or that medication... i would surely want to hear the worst of it...
>
> i guess... if someone told me i'd as good a given my kid a death warrant on an internet forum... it might better prepare me for handling myself okay were anyone to suggest it irl.
>
> hear the best case for the opposing point of view... then it kind of loses its power. at the very least you can say 'i thought about it carefully... and yes, i did consider that...'
>
> alexandra_k> i thought it was about supporting people. the poster came... and expressed gratitude for support received.
>
> so... why can't posters consider that a job well done?
>
> alexandra_k> I still like the changes in Babble, and how we collectively deal with problems with only slight oversight by Bob. I think this thread is a good example of a community trying to work through the tension of free expression and restraint, individuality and community, autonomy and supervision.
>
> Toph> The problems of years ago were not helped by the style of moderation then which seemed to inflame rather than diffuse situations. That said, it does not follow that no moderation is better. Bob does seem to be trying something new which may have possibilities.
>
> sigismundThanks, I feel understood and supported. It would be great if she stays, but even if she doesn't, her finding that she was stronger than she thought because posters gave her support and inspiration is a win in my book.
--
> I'm dreadfully sorry you resent us. Do you think the resentment is to do with our actual behavior? Or might it have something to do with your hopes and expectations of us? Your web mastermind seems to have a brilliant new scheme of how Babble should be run. Could you be feeling some resentment that we aren't embracing the change in its entirety? Would it help to remember that while parts of your new ideas aren't working badly, given the new size and makeup of Babble, your idea does need some tweaking?
>
> Dinah> To practice what I preach, I'll add that my anger with you has to do with the fact that I liked Babble with administration, that that was the Babble I chose to remain with, and that my expectations of you is that you will be willing to administrate. Even though you show me over and over that my expectations are unreasonable, and that I am banging my head against a brick wall, when I see your name on a thread I can't help but hope. And the hope leads to my anger at your responses.
>
> Dinah> you seem not to grasp how much energy it takes for those of us here to "battle" Lou's insistence on riding to the "rescue" of every new poster on psychobabble who asks about new meds, or a change of meds, or worse yet, frustration with meds.
>
> I personally am ***** (redacted by respondent) weary of reading Lou's posts and summoning the patience and swallowing the annoyance of trying yet again to engage with them, to be cool in the face of them, to answer some of his picaresque assertions
>
> I did not sign up to struggle daily with Lou-as-Poster's misinformation, distortions, exaggerations, threats, warnings, and mischaracterizations of those who use and who prescribe meds.
>
> Do you read that voice's posts carefully, studying its assertions, with the sense that you need to pin them down, answer them, to find and to quote yet another study, to search down elusive (or nonexistent) information, and to reach out to the last object of its ministrations? Do you feel a burden of trying to go through the same old debate, iteration after iteration. Do you feel a sense of weariness and dread asits name appears yet again in a thread?
>
> I note [you post] as if from outside, while we mortals continue the old struggle.. You say it exhausts you? Well this all exhausts me. And bores me, and feels like being stuck. And being stuck is the one of the worst thing you can feel in therapy or life.
>
> WillfulI didn't say I resented you. I suppose it's fair to say it has to do with the mismatch between posters' behavior and my hopes. As the resentment, or frustration, some posters feel may have to do with the mismatch between Lou's behavior and their hopes. Maybe my hopes need tweaking. Maybe some posters' also do.
I liked the old Babble, too. And my old deputies. But it wasn't a sustainable model. I'm still willing to administrate, but I'm tweaking my ideas. :-)
How much energy it takes me to battle posters' insistence gives me an idea of how much energy it takes them to battle Lou's insistence. I get weary and impatient and annoyed, too. I didn't sign up to go through the same old debates, iteration after iteration. I'd rather be brilliant and reticent. Sometimes I dread certain names and feel we're stuck. But I do read those posts carefully, study their assertions, misinformation, distortions, exaggerations, threats, warnings, and mischaracterizations, and answer them. And I try to learn ways to cope and find the energy to persevere.
Bob
Posted by Twinleaf on July 4, 2013, at 21:03:34
In reply to Re: Trying to practice what I've been preaching, posted by Dr. Bob on July 4, 2013, at 19:22:28
Several times, I believe I am hearing you say that it is tough to keep going as a constant administrator of this site. What could we do together to help make it interesting and rewarding for you, as well as safe and welcoming for us so that more of us will post in a personal and trusting manner the way we used to?
Posted by alexandra_k on July 4, 2013, at 22:22:43
In reply to Re: Trying to practice what I've been preaching » Dr. Bob, posted by Twinleaf on July 4, 2013, at 21:03:34
> Several times, I believe I am hearing you say that it is tough to keep going as a constant administrator of this site. What could we do together to help make it interesting and rewarding for you, as well as safe and welcoming for us so that more of us will post in a personal and trusting manner the way we used to?
Maybe each and every one of us can do that which we have most control over... Mind / moderate our own behavior.
If a poster comes and finds one post that they view is negative or harmful or whatever...
Then if every other post is supportive...
Well...
I personally think I'd have more respect for the site if that were to happen instead of
1) A moderator stepping in
or
2) The community turning on the poster who posted what was viewed as negative or harmful.
But maybe that is just me.
I thought the whole idea was for this site to be about providing positive support. Focusing on the negative... Takes time and energy away from the positive, yeah?
Bob spending his energy on attempting to moderate / curb the negative... Takes time away from enjoying the positive, yeah?
Posted by alexandra_k on July 4, 2013, at 22:35:27
In reply to Re: Trying to practice what I've been preaching » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on July 3, 2013, at 9:26:30
i had to look it up.
i feel resentful when people tell me what they think i should do before they have an appropriate grasp on my situation.
so, for instance, people think that yes i should enroll in a course in sport and exercise science. but then it turns out that i waste a year of my time doing a course that is grossly inappropriate for me (given my educational background). or people think that yes i should work on my thesis. but then it turns out that i waste months of extension time (which almost sabotages my prospects for completion) because they didn't understand that in order to make progress i need a quiet space to work and i need that on campus. or when people think that yes physiotherapy is a good course for me. but then it turns out to be grossly inappropriate for me, again. or people think that yes they would be good flatmates for me because really what i most need in the world is to watch tv with them all day and keep them company.
i feel resentful when people waste my time.
i feel resentful when people aren't appropriately respectful of my time. when people think i have (i *should* have) nothing else / better to do with my time than for me to mind them.
i feel resentful when people waste my time getting me to do things they don't need *me* to do.
i feel resentful when people get upset that i won't hang out with them when they have *other* people in their lives who are happy to join them. i feel resentful when people ask me to do x or y or z for them so i take time away from my thesis to do stuff and then i discover that their tv watching buddies could have helped them and the only cost was less tv watched.
it isn't that i think that my goals or projects are more important...
or is it?maybe in a sense i think that actually yes, my goals or projects are.
sorry...
but me getting to work on my thesis for 25 minutes *just is* objectively more valuable than you watching a certain episode of the Simpsons for the 10th or 12th time.
i'm sure Bob has stuff to be doing...
but, no. he should clearly be spending... what? hours? going through all the 'read this and that and the next post and determine civility'. because it is all about the rules and not at all about individual posters just worrying about their own conduct. oh yes, sir-ee.
sure.
i'm sure bob doesn't feel resentful at all.
how would i feel in his position?
i'd probably have bailed years ago.
thanks for still being here bob.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 4, 2013, at 22:36:13
In reply to resentment, posted by alexandra_k on July 4, 2013, at 22:35:27
i don't know what a powerplay is.
i looked it up on wiki but i don't know enough about ice hockey to understand its description.
Posted by Dinah on July 5, 2013, at 8:20:06
In reply to resentment, posted by alexandra_k on July 4, 2013, at 22:35:27
> but, no. he should clearly be spending... what? hours? going through all the 'read this and that and the next post and determine civility'. because it is all about the rules and not at all about individual posters just worrying about their own conduct. oh yes, sir-ee.
I don't usually feel resentment. But I think I'm feeling it right now.
I don't think anyone is asking Dr. Bob to waste hours of his precious time in involvement in his own website. Certainly not nearly as much time as deputies gave freely. With today's level of posting, and the current makeup of posters, it wouldn't take him all that much time. People are just asking him to make a minimal investment of time to address an ongoing situation.
It's just dandy to worry about our own behavior. But tell me, Alex, do you just worry about your own behavior when people are being hurt by the behavior of others? If someone is going around hurting other people, do you just worry about your own behavior?
People have been trying to mitigate the behavior of Lou for far more hours than Bob would need to invest. And when people see newcomers having panic attacks over Lou's posts, people want to see that stopped.
I'm pleased to see that you are now solidly behind Bob. I don't swing to such extremes. I never was against him, and I'm also not fervently pro-Bob to such a degree that I'll support his behavior when I think it is wrong. Or perhaps you are now pro-Bob because he's doing what you always thought he should. In which case, I'll point out that we have a right to be take him to task when we disagree. I was never in favor of an unmoderated Babble and I never will be. Or perhaps since you don't read Meds much, if I understand you correctly, you don't have a sense of what's happening.
But yes, I'd have likely shut down Babble years ago too. And I do appreciate that Bob hasn't.
It's just that that doesn't absolve him from taking responsibility for the site.
Posted by Dinah on July 5, 2013, at 8:22:45
In reply to resentment, posted by alexandra_k on July 4, 2013, at 22:35:27
> but, no. he should clearly be spending... what? hours? going through all the 'read this and that and the next post and determine civility'. because it is all about the rules and not at all about individual posters just worrying about their own conduct. oh yes, sir-ee.
>
> sure.
>
> i'm sure bob doesn't feel resentful at all.Purely for my own curiosity, is this an example of your worrying about your own behavior?
Posted by Dinah on July 5, 2013, at 9:48:09
In reply to Re: resentment » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on July 5, 2013, at 8:22:45
The really sad part of this is that most of the people I see recently saying things that might be hurtful to Lou, myself included, don't want to hurt Lou at all. We'd happily include Lou as part of the community. But things like including "infanticide" in the subject line, and other incidents of exaggeration, over-generalization, and accusation, are things that ought to be addressed by Bob, so that the posters can be in relative amity with each other.
IMO, that is part of what it means to be an administrator.
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 5, 2013, at 13:09:27
In reply to Re: Trying to practice what I've been preaching » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on July 3, 2013, at 9:09:28
> > Great, it's simple to notify me, too.
>
> If I don't have as many outstanding notifications as some, it's merely because of learned helplessness.
>
> > Is anybody interested in a Refuge board?
>
> I agree with Scott on this one. It would hardly address my major concern, which is newcomers to the board. I figure any of us who continue to post under current conditions realize what we're risking. Notice I don't post much anymore about anything personal? But newcomers don't realize what they are risking. I'd rather see a Lou board than a refuge board.
>
> I have wondered whether it might be helpful for people to post immediately if they see a post from Lou that might be upsetting to someone who doesn't understand him. They could put in the subject line a request that the originating poster read this post before Lou's, and then explain something about Lou. Nothing derogatory. Just the information that Lou believes he has been sent to Babble by The Rider on the White Horse to save people from evil psychiatric medications, that Dr. Bob has chosen to allow him to post freely, and that it's probably best to consider his mission before a poster chooses to open the post, or keeps it in mind when interpreting his post. And perhaps a reminder that this is, after all, a mental health board.
>
> If it's too much trouble for you to administrate the board you originated and support, and over which you have gotten a great deal of publicity, oh brilliant and reticent web mastermind.
>
> > Lou has serious and grave misgivings about psychiatric drugs, and some posters have serious and grave misgivings about Lou. Posters have to deal with Lou's misgivings, and I have to deal with the misgivings of posters. Trying to practice what I've been preaching, I've reminded myself that misgivings about Lou aren't going to go away. They need continually to be battled. It might exhaust me and I might resent it, but success depends on my learning ways to cope and finding the energy to persevere.
> >
> > Bob
>
> I'm dreadfully sorry you resent us. Do you think the resentment is to do with our actual behavior? Or might it have something to do with your hopes and expectations of us? Your web mastermind seems to have a brilliant new scheme of how Babble should be run. Could you be feeling some resentment that we aren't embracing the change in its entirety? Would it help to remember that while parts of your new ideas aren't working badly, given the new size and makeup of Babble, your idea does need some tweaking?
>
> Surely a mastermind understands that even the most brilliant of plans need to be adjusted from time to time. Perhaps you could consider adjusting yours to address this ongoing situation of exaggerations and accusations that lead to escalating anger and accusations in turn.
>
> It certainly is honest of you to admit your resentment... My therapist would likely have reframed it as frustration.D,
What do you mean by,[..post freely...]?
Lou
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 5, 2013, at 15:28:46
In reply to Irony, posted by Dinah on July 5, 2013, at 9:48:09
> Several times, I believe I am hearing you say that it is tough to keep going as a constant administrator of this site. What could we do together to help make it interesting and rewarding for you, as well as safe and welcoming for us so that more of us will post in a personal and trusting manner the way we used to?
>
> TwinleafWhat makes this rewarding for me is "wins" like posters finding that they're stronger than they thought.
I believe I'm hearing posters say it's tough to keep going with Lou around. I wonder what would make this rewarding for them.
--
> i don't know what a powerplay is.
>
> alexandra_k> I don't think anyone is asking Dr. Bob to waste hours of his precious time in involvement in his own website. ... it wouldn't take him all that much time.
>
> It's just dandy to worry about our own behavior. But tell me, Alex, do you just worry about your own behavior when people are being hurt by the behavior of others? If someone is going around hurting other people, do you just worry about your own behavior?
>
> People have been trying to mitigate the behavior of Lou for far more hours than Bob would need to invest.
>
> Dinah> The really sad part of this is that most of the people I see recently saying things that might be hurtful to Lou, myself included, don't want to hurt Lou at all. ... But things like including "infanticide" in the subject line, and other incidents of exaggeration, over-generalization, and accusation, are things that ought to be addressed by Bob
>
> DinahThe power play idea is that when one side outnumbers the other, it tends to score more goals.
Posters can focus on:
1. posters who could use support
2. Lou
3. meWhich is more likely to be effective? Rewarding?
I understand feeling frustrated, or resentful, or even angry, at what causes hurt.
Bob
Posted by Dinah on July 5, 2013, at 16:01:04
In reply to Re: posters who could use support, posted by Dr. Bob on July 5, 2013, at 15:28:46
> What makes this rewarding for me is "wins" like posters finding that they're stronger than they thought.
So you find it rewarding that a poster here and there are strong enough to continue posting in the face of the pain they receive at your website? Well...
I don't see it as a "win" for the website though, other than of course the site is better off than if the poster left. It's more a "win" for the poster. What did you have to do with it? Do you feel pride in it?
> I believe I'm hearing posters say it's tough to keep going with Lou around. I wonder what would make this rewarding for them.
>I believe I hear you saying they are going to have to continue to see Lou continue posting as he is currently posting because you have no intention of enforcing rules on accusations and exaggerations and overgeneralizations? That they're going to have to learn to find intrinsic rewards in continuing to battle Lou? Thank you for making that clear. That makes me feel sad.
> Posters can focus on:
>
> 1. posters who could use support
> 2. Lou
> 3. me
>
> Which is more likely to be effective? Rewarding?Apparently the latter two are totally ineffective. I generally have been choosing
4.) things in life other than Babble. I'm rather proud of my strength in being able to do that more and more. You are free to take pride in that if you wish, as you certainly have played a role in giving me that strength. I spent nearly a month without looking at the site!! Congratulations on generating that strength in me.
> I understand feeling frustrated, or resentful, or even angry, at what causes hurt.
>
> BobWhy resentful? Frustrated and angry I understand.
Posted by zazenducke on July 5, 2013, at 16:05:05
In reply to Re: posters who could use support, posted by Dr. Bob on July 5, 2013, at 15:28:46
Lou's obviously being used as a scapegoat. But I am sure you know that, don't you?
Posted by Dinah on July 5, 2013, at 16:07:50
In reply to Re: posters who could use support, posted by Dr. Bob on July 5, 2013, at 15:28:46
You know what, Dr. Bob?
I'd have never stayed around - or even chanced a first post - with a Babble that looks as it now does. So instead of being angry with you for not providing a website I'd like to be at now, I should thank you for providing a website I did want to be at for all those years.
Babble meant a lot to me, and I very much appreciated the safe environment to talk about difficult topics.
It may never be that Babble again, but I do have my memories. Thank you.
Posted by Twinleaf on July 5, 2013, at 17:25:48
In reply to Re: posters who could use support » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on July 5, 2013, at 16:07:50
I also feel a deep appreciation for Babble as it used to be. I think it played a limited but very positive role in my recovery from depression, both by providing good ideas of medications to try, and, even more, by providing a warm and empathic community to share experiences with.
I think Scott is right in saying that we felt safe in Babble, although some of us felt threatened and hurt by the extent of the PBCs and blocks given for very small, often unclear infractions. I think I experienced an unjust degree of such punishment to an extraordinary degree, but it did not prevent me from feeling a sense of community here. What did eventually damage that sense of trust and community was that the board became unmoderated. This has resulted in a loss of emotional safety, and also just a simple loss of enough posters to form an interesting community. Dinah is describing a situation where she feels that Babble is no longer supporting her growth towards mental health; I feel exactly the same.
If the positive aspects of Babble aren't restored, posters are simply not going to want to be a part of it. Old posters are going to continue to disappear, and new ones are not going to find it worthwhile to join.
Since you once had a vital community, why not restore some of the things that made it work? PBCs can be given at times (not every time), and for as many times as you want. They don't have to be immediately followed by blocks, although you may want to give a short block occasionally. I would strongly suggest not doubling blocks. Providing this minimal degree of oversight should not take too much time. There seems to be so much extreme, "either -or", black and white thinking about this entire issue. It would be so much better to institute a minimal, flexible version of the administrative policies which made Babble a success in the past.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 5, 2013, at 19:53:24
In reply to Re: resentment » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on July 5, 2013, at 8:20:06
> I don't usually feel resentment. But I think I'm feeling it right now.
hmm. i guess i figured i've been feeling a lot of it over the last couple years. i don't much like it. it seems close to bitterness, to me, and i'd rather not be a person who feels a lot of bitterness :-(
i read that remorse is when resentment is felt towards oneself. really? i would never have thought that... i thought remorse was about feeling sorry for whatever it is one thinks one should feel sorry about...
i'm talking about irl, though, not the boards. i don't think i feel resentment here.
> But tell me, Alex, do you just worry about your own behavior when people are being hurt by the behavior of others? If someone is going around hurting other people, do you just worry about your own behavior?
it comes down to our needing to make a judgment:
- when should we alter the individual's behavior
- when should we alter society's response to ite.g., homosexuality. used to be something that we thought best to treat. because we disapprove of it, you see. now we think that the behavior actually isn't problematic at all, rather we need to change society. if someone is upset about homosexual behavior the appropriate intervention is not to alter the homosexual behavior it is to alter the emotional response to it.
and psychiatry is a form of social control... like law.
ahaha.
> People have been trying to mitigate the behavior of Lou for far more hours than Bob would need to invest. And when people see newcomers having panic attacks over Lou's posts, people want to see that stopped.
yes. it would be nice if people didn't have panic attacks.
> I'm pleased to see that you are now solidly behind Bob. I don't swing to such extremes. I never was against him, and I'm also not fervently pro-Bob to such a degree that I'll support his behavior when I think it is wrong.aw, hey, neither am i. i will speak up when i think he does wrong. surely you know that about me? it is just that you and i often have a different perspective on when he is right and when he is wrong. between the both of us maybe he gets just the right amount of support / critique.
?
and sometimes we agree... i think... we have...
and sometimes (but you really do need to bang on) you open up different ways of viewing things for me, and i think i come to a fuller understanding... even though we might not necessarily agree... my world feels enriched for it, anyway...
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 5, 2013, at 20:00:23
In reply to Re: posters who could use support » Dr. Bob, posted by zazenducke on July 5, 2013, at 16:05:05
>
>
> Lou's obviously being used as a scapegoat. But I am sure you know that, don't you?
>
> ZZDuck,
What you wrote is plainly visible.
> And here we have the dynamics of scapegoating that may be unbeknownst to some.
Psychologists say that scapegoating is attributing blame to others. but it is much more than that. Scapegoaters move blame and responsibility away from themselves and toward a target person or group.The scapegoaters project their hostility via accusations, blame and criticism of the one they are targeting as a scapegoat.
In scapegoating, feelings of guilt, aggression and blame and suffering are transferred away from a person or group so as to fulfill an unconscious drive to resolve or avoid such bad feelings. This is done by the displacement of responsibility and blame to another who serves as a target for blame both for the scapegoaters and his/her supporters. The scapegoter's target experiences exclusion, ostracism or even expulsion. [Karpman 1968].
But there is much more to this because of the devastating consequences that could come back to the scapegoater as history records, such as suicide or held culpable for crimes committed toward the one that they use as a scapegoat.
Lou
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Posted by Phillipa on July 5, 2013, at 20:45:27
In reply to Re: posters who could use support » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on July 5, 2013, at 16:07:50
What used to be is gone. My time is spent elsewhere. I get nothing but a googlebar here for ebay posting. Used to be supportive can't see that I is for the most part anymore. But what do I know as told all the time from a blocked poster that I'm hated here. Phillipa
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