![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 47 to 71 of 71. Go back in thread:
Posted by Nadezda on December 9, 2008, at 22:30:15
In reply to the reasons for my post... » Dinah, posted by twinleaf on December 9, 2008, at 19:40:21
The problem for the deputies and Bob is that when one poster writes uncivil posts, another poster(s) may well be hurt, and if there is no legitimate action taken to limit the hurtfulness, its quiet presence damages us all, and it often concretely ripples out so that many are caught in the immediate web of hurtfulness.
There were several angles of hurt in this and other instances of blocks, and, while I don't like the idea of blocking, I see that sometimes it is necessary to spare the community a lot of turmoil and pain.
I know we all feel for SSSS, but there are others involved who also need our concern. I'm sorry that the situation evolved as it did. But I believe that Dinah and Racer's actions were quite correct in this situation and that they acted in the interests of us all, as well as the posters directly involved.
Nadezda
Posted by lucie lu on December 9, 2008, at 23:27:41
In reply to the reasons for my post... » Dinah, posted by twinleaf on December 9, 2008, at 19:40:21
TwinLeaf,
I am sorry that you felt so hurt and unhappy with Dinah's post. It seems to me that you have taken comments very much to heart than I think were made for all of us. Hey, I got, and deserved (sorry for that), the equivalent of a PBC, as did muffy. I haven't gone back to reread the whole thread but I never thought that anyone's comments were directed at you. I was a bit surprised, that in one of my posts where I was sympathizing with the deputies for having a tough job, that you in particular seemed to think that comment was aimed at you. It wasn't at all! In fact it was not at all aimed at any one person, and certainly not you. Sometimes we just respond to a general tone or viewpoint and it may be a composite of many expressed. That was the case with me. I won't speak for Dinah but the way her post read to me, that's how I took it.
The reason I'm saying this, TwinLeaf, is to express that you are anything but insensitive, unthoughtful or unknowledgeable. I have always thought quite the contrary about you, and I like you and enjoy reading your intelligent comments. I think you are regarded as a person of compassion and integrity. IMO you really shouldn't feel you have to defend your personal or posting qualities, I don't think they have ever been in question. Again, I am sorry you felt singled out and experience distress as a consequence.
Feelings have run high on all sides over this. I really believe that this is because everyone here cares so much, about SSSS, other posters, and the board as a whole. There has been lots of good and useful discussion. To everyone, I hope that we can feel that it is OK to express our feelings and views, then get back to the business of doing what we do on Babble. We are all good people trying to do the best we can.
All the best,
Lucie
Posted by twinleaf on December 9, 2008, at 23:40:51
In reply to Re: the reasons for my post..., posted by Nadezda on December 9, 2008, at 22:30:15
I agree with you. I do not have any disagreement with the deputies' actions, which I do think were necessary and thoughtfully carried out. In the case of this particular poster, SSSS, whose journey many posters feel they have been a part of, the elements of pain and suffering were so prominent that I thought it might be a pertinent time to have a discussion as to how one poster's personal distress, the feelings and needs of all other posters, and the regulations governing how the site is run might ALL be considered, with the aim and hope of maximizing support and helpfulness for everyone, and minimizing pain and hurt. I did have a personal bias in this- I would have liked to see a little more emphasis on flexibility in how these situations are handled. However, I was never critical of anything that the deputies, or anyone else, had done. At that point, I was principally interested in an open exchange of ideas. If any change at all were to come out of that, I assumed it would be at a much later time.
I was not expecting to be criticized, misunderstood and put down by a deputy for something as potentially constructive as that.
Posted by lucie lu on December 9, 2008, at 23:42:46
In reply to Re: the reasons for my post... » twinleaf, posted by lucie lu on December 9, 2008, at 23:27:41
I did just go back and rescan the thread. Clearly there were some exchanges between individuals in response to a particular point or points. But in these posts, including mine, the rest of the comments seemed very general and addressed to all. Or at least so I took it.
-L.
Posted by lucie lu on December 9, 2008, at 23:47:21
In reply to Re: the reasons for my post... » Nadezda, posted by twinleaf on December 9, 2008, at 23:40:51
As I like and respect TwinLeaf and the other posters here, I feel very much the same about Dinah. Not just as a deputy but a fellow Babbler. Dinah, you are known for your wise and measured responses as well as your sympathy and compassion for other Babblers. This is not a personality contest or judging anyone, I just wanted to express those feelings.Lucie
Posted by twinleaf on December 9, 2008, at 23:56:31
In reply to Re: the reasons for my post... » twinleaf, posted by lucie lu on December 9, 2008, at 23:27:41
Thank you. lucie. I appreciate everything that you said, and can more than reciprocate, as I always love your posts, and find them invariably so warm and intelligent. Just to clarify, I was not upset by anything in your long post about SSSS, and all the issues that situation was bringing up. I didn't feel that anything you said in that post was directed at me in a critical manner; it was just one of those good, illuminating, insightful posts that I was very glad to read.
I responded to one post only, which had my name on it.
Posted by llurpsienoodle on December 10, 2008, at 5:04:40
In reply to Re: Blocked for 2 weeks » Deputy Racer, posted by BayLeaf on December 8, 2008, at 8:31:59
This block may have been an action to help the community feel safer. It certainly helped me feel safer.
I did ask SSSS if she was okay, and she replied that she "was feeling a little annoyed".
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20081205/msgs/867302.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20081205/msgs/867306.html
Perhaps it was worse than that by the time she posted on my thread -- the post about female dogs. If you look at the times on these posts, there was a very quick succession of things, and I did not anticipate that things would escalate in the way they did.
I took the analytical tone of these posts (links above) to be a sign that she was being thoughtful of civility issues.
It's often hard to "talk someone down" when their feelings are changing so quickly.
I'm not sure what you would have done in my place, but I personally did not feel comfortable opening up a line of b-mail dialog with her at this point, or being in a chat room or something like that.
Was this prescient?
Did my ignoring her contribute to an escalation in heated feelings? (Ignoring her was the only thing I thought of doing, in order to protect my own feelings-- you know the drill-- take care of yourself, find your own safe place, there are no safe places in the world, etc.)
I don't think I will ever learn what was going on in someone's head, based on the scanty evidence of a few posts. I certainly was very much surprised by the BITCHES post. That was unexpected.
I somehow doubt that it's civil to talk about my personal feelings in reaction to these events. I will leave you all to deduce them.
-Ll
Posted by Dinah on December 10, 2008, at 7:52:36
In reply to the reasons for my post... » Dinah, posted by twinleaf on December 9, 2008, at 19:40:21
I am at a loss. As you described what I said, I thought "How horrible of me to have said such things!"
But I was in my own mind, and I know what I was thinking. I had no desire to put you down or accuse you. I did not even *think* those things, much less post them deliberately.
I must express myself very badly, and have unfortunate word choices, to have given that impression. However, since many people have had the same experience with me lately, I will accept that my skills at expressing my thoughts are worse than I thought them to be.
I feel so very sad that you might think I'd write a post the way you read it. And if I did express myself so badly that you saw no other way to interpret what I wrote, I am very sad that you didn't ask me if I meant to say something that I had hoped you did not think in character for me.
I especially feel hurt because you are family to me. I guess I kind of thought that family would know that whatever my flaws, I'd never intentionally hurt anyone at all. Even if I was angry with you, which I wasn't, I would have been even more careful of how I posted and walked away if I felt unable to post with generosity of spirit. What you heard me say is so out of keeping with anything I'd post on purpose that it surprises me that you don't trust my scrupulousness (or self-righteousness perhaps) to prevent me from posting it, even if you don't trust my good nature or generosity of spirit to stop me.
I apologize for causing you pain. I would not wish to hurt you for the world.
Posted by Nadezda on December 10, 2008, at 9:40:07
In reply to Re: the reasons for my post... » twinleaf, posted by Dinah on December 10, 2008, at 7:52:36
I want to say, But...but...but......?
How did this all get to such a point?
I thought Dinah's answer, if I understand which was the post that caused some stir, was very general. While it was in response to the point make by twinleaf, I didn't really think it was directed at twinleaf--or at anyone specific-- if you see the difference.
And it really only stated the general rationale for such types of actions, which I do think sometimes people forget in the warmth of their concern for the person who's been blocked. I know I myself was concerned about those who were the objects and readers of the posts by SSSS -- and, in particular, that the concern for SSSS might seem, inadvertantly, to diminish the other person/peoples' needs.
It is a lot to expect the hurt person to want, necessarily, to gently suggest that the poster might be careful-- if that would, in fact, be helpful-- which it might not be. The deputies are not always able to catch these things before they escalate== and their gentle warnings may also be taken as unwelcome reproofs-- which themselves then cause further escalation. Then, there are limits-- we don't have time or energy for bmail correspondence to remedy these things.. There is simply the reality that we all have demanding lives and can't attend to everything in the way it might deserve ideally. It just isn't possible to do all we might like.
I'm sure I'm not saying anything that you, twinleaf, and everyone else, don't already know-- and I'm not suggesting in any way that your concern for blocked posters is misplaced. It's great that people want to support those who've been blocked, because it can be experienced as a rejection and be painful. The support is, I feel, an important source of comfort.
I just think there are constraints to what we can expect. This is the system that's evolved. It's fine to offer potential improvements. But, however bad it may feel at a moment, and however much it could be improved over time, we need to respect and care about those who administer it, not only because they're very dedicated and we're lucky to have them, but because they are other posters with issues, and sensitivities, vulnerabilities like our own. They may not be our particular ones-- but we do need to consider their needs too. Which is not to say we shouldn't protest blocks, but that perhaps we should be aware that the deputies can be hurt, too-- and have many demands placed on them.
It's difficult, I know-- we get up in what we're feeling and it's hard to see what others write from their point of view. But I truly don't think Dinah meant to do more than throw an emphasis on certain points-- and to say, "these are the things that weighed most heavily in my decision"-- not because we don't know or act in accordance with them-- but because she was throwing a light on them.
I think this is a hope that we can read others' posts in the best, and most curious, rather than conclusory, way we can. If we try to give one another the benefit of the doubt, and remember that many criticisms come from feelings of hurt or confusion that we may not understand-- and that may not reflect on us-- maybe we can avoid at least a little of the pain.
Nadezda
Posted by muffled on December 10, 2008, at 9:59:52
In reply to Re: the reasons for my post..., posted by Nadezda on December 10, 2008, at 9:40:07
seems a poster blowing up ends up causing others pain too
:-(
it spreads like ripples on a pond
the pain spreads
God I hate to agree with the Bobster....damn, but he right again...
he used to say to me...that blocking wasn't about me so much, it was about all. that my blowing up, even though it was generally directed at myself, AFFECTED and even triggered others
i didn't really beleive him at the time
i was too busy being angry
i know now
i am so sorry if my past blowups ever caused rifts/hurts with other babblers
(((((babblers)))))
hell, heres a small un for ((Bob)) even though I not so fond of him
M
Posted by twinleaf on December 10, 2008, at 10:01:36
In reply to Re: the reasons for my post... » twinleaf, posted by Dinah on December 10, 2008, at 7:52:36
Thank you for posting back to me, Dinah. This whole episode is just so sad, starting with SSSS' distress and then gradually spreading through the community, When I read the whole thread over just now, it seemed to concern mainly SSSS' actions and state of mind, and posters' reactions to them. Mostly, people expressed regret, caring and support for her; I did that, too, but I also opened up the question of whether more flexibility and a longer grace period before blocking would have helped SSSS. This thought was not intended as a criticism of any deputies, but rather as a possible way out when such a situation occurs again.. As soon as I offered that thought, I received your post with four individual statements which any reasonable person would interpret as containing criticisms and put-downs.
I regret that I did not ask you if you really meant what you wrote. I assumed that you did, because you have often said that you think over your posts, rewrite them, and sometimes do not even send them if you feel they have not expressed your views adequately. I very much appreciate your posting to me and I feel very, very badly about what happened. If I am honest with myself, I am not going to be able to say truthfully that I wasn't hurt. By the same token, you are not going to feel that you meant anything hurtful by your comments. Let's just close the door permanently on this episode.
Posted by Dinah on December 10, 2008, at 10:39:40
In reply to Re: the reasons for my post... » Dinah, posted by twinleaf on December 10, 2008, at 10:01:36
I too would like to close the door on this incident. But the truth is that I feel angry and hurt, and not for the first time with regard to your posts to me and/or deputies on the Administration board. And I'm talking about how I feel, not criticizing you. I work very hard at being generous of spirit, since I'm not entirely sure it comes naturally to me. I don't do it to get appreciation, of course. But I'm not perfect by any means, and sometimes I find it really upsetting to try so hard to be good, and to feel like my efforts have not been received as I intend them. Particularly when it's someone I like and respect. Again, that's a statement about *me*.
I'll get over it. I don't like feeling negative emotions. They make my head hurt.
But I was wondering if you'd be willing to compromise on one statement.
You said:
"As soon as I offered that thought, I received your post with four individual statements which any reasonable person would interpret as containing criticisms and put-downs."Would you be willing to compromise on:
"As soon as I offered that thought, I received your post with four individual statements which *a* reasonable person *could* interpret as containing criticisms and put-downs."
If that's not ok with you, I understand, and I hope in either case our long term relationship can withstand this misunderstanding.
Posted by Dinah on December 10, 2008, at 10:57:40
In reply to Re: the reasons for my post... » twinleaf, posted by Dinah on December 10, 2008, at 10:39:40
I may have given the wrong impression. I don't mean I need to work hard on generosity of spirit with you in particular.
It's a stance I try to adopt, and as a way of life it does sometimes require hard work. In general.
Posted by gardenergirl on December 10, 2008, at 11:36:33
In reply to Re: the reasons for my post... » Dinah, posted by twinleaf on December 10, 2008, at 10:01:36
and I did not interpret those statements the way it was suggested any reasonable person would. I believe twinleaf is a reasonable person, too. And her perception of Dinah's post is her own experience, and thus is valid, as is anyone else's perception about it. Dinah's experience of making the post is equally valid.
I think it's helpful to clearly distinguish the difference between one person's actions and another person's experience of those actions, and that is the whole point of "I-statements." Both aspects of the communication, both experiences are real. Each are true for that person, even while the two experiences may seem diametrically opposed. I don't view this or any communication about our internal experiences about a shared event as a zero-sum situation where only one experience is "the right one." And that's why I think "I-statements" are always more effective, more accurate, clearer, and more respectful communications about a shared experience of an event than "You-statements". And that's why I agree with that aspect of the civility rules, since the stance or frame of reference a person takes when communicating really does make a difference in the message. Saying, "I felt X about what someone did" is not just another way of saying, "Someone did X." Anyone could argue about whether that person really did do X, but no one can rationally argue with my feeling about it.
gg
Posted by twinleaf on December 10, 2008, at 13:10:24
In reply to Re: the reasons for my post... » twinleaf, posted by Dinah on December 10, 2008, at 10:39:40
Dinah, the problem I have with this whole posting sequence is that anyone reading it through would not ever think that I criticized either your or Racer's actions as deputies, or any other posters' opinions or thoughts. I praised your posts attempting to help SSSS avoid going into an extreme emotional meltdown which would be harmful to others and would necessitate a block. When the block came, I did not question that it was needed; the only comment I made was that her pain and suffering were so apparent that I wondered whether a bit more time to offer calming and supportive posts would have made any difference. I certainly don't know the answer to that, (it probably would not have) and I actually was wondering more about what the best response might be in a similar future situation. To sum up, I simply did not do or say anything which was critical or undermining of the deputies or of anyone else- not even in the most subtle manner. That was a very difficult situation; I personally was not sure when the right time to impose a block would be, and I accepted without question that you and Racer had done the best that anyone could do. The only thing I did- speculating in an objective manner about how best to respond in a similar future situation is simply not the equivalent of a put-down, attack or criticism of either one of you, or of anyone else.
It was therefore a shock to me to have my thoughts responded to as if I had been pushing up against, or had gone over the Board's civility guidelines. It was a shock to have a deputy remind me not to employ negative characterizations, when I had not been anywhere near to doing so, to point out to me that posters are not psychotherapists, when that has simply not been an issue in any post I've written over the last five years, to remind me that I must consider the
feelings and needs of other posters, when almost every post of mine, including the ones on this thread, have shown how important I feel this to be, and finally to characterize me as feeling that deputies act with vengeance when they block posters. I have never accused any deputy of having any negative feelings and do not feel that this is a factor at all. It is, however, a fact that the act of being blocked can feel like a rejection- probably more so when Babble has become an emotionally important community to someone. My point in bringing that up was that it is one factor to consider when a block is being considered.I feel that I dealt with everyone in a fair manner. and that my posts earlier on in this thread were nonjudgemental, supportive and easily able to hold the needs and interests of posters in difficulty, observing posters, and deputies simultaneously in mind. However, If the situation had been reversed, and I had posted those four statements to you, Dinah, I would have received a PCB as a minimum; I would more likely have been blocked.
. Now, while you do not feel the need to address or modify any of your statements to me, which came first in time, you are asking me to modify one of mine, which came second in time as a response to yours. It would not occur to me to ask you to change something you have said. I feel that you say what you think and believe, and that is sacrosanct. However, I spoke what I felt to be the truth, also, when I said that your post contained statements "which any reasonable person would interpret as containing criticisms and put-downs".
While I understand well what may be coming next, I have to stick by what I believe to be true.
Posted by Dinah on December 10, 2008, at 13:21:05
In reply to changing my phrasing... » Dinah, posted by twinleaf on December 10, 2008, at 13:10:24
All that's coming from me is the statement that I feel unequal to the challenge of phrasing myself in such a way as to cause no offense, so I am withdrawing from this conversation.
I have apologized for expressing myself so poorly as to lead you to feel accused or put down. I cannot, with honesty, apologize for intending to lead you to feel accused or put down. I am at a loss of what more to do, particularly since I feel no confidence in my ability to restate anything in any less offensive way.
I'm sorry I'm unable to offer anything more.
I suppose I always hope that two decent people who wish to maintain a positive relationship can work out disagreements in such a way as to add depth and strength to a relationship. I am sad to see this discussion end without that happening. Given my positive feelings towards you, I regret it very much.
Posted by gardenergirl on December 10, 2008, at 13:47:30
In reply to changing my phrasing... » Dinah, posted by twinleaf on December 10, 2008, at 13:10:24
I would love to hear your thoughts about my post above. http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20081003/msgs/867858.html
If you're interested in responding but not on the boards, please feel free to babblemail or email them (gardenergirl88 at yahoo)
gg
Posted by Nadezda on December 10, 2008, at 14:35:56
In reply to Re: changing my phrasing... » twinleaf, posted by gardenergirl on December 10, 2008, at 13:47:30
I also would hope to understand how you came to your feeling about Dinah's post. I really don't understand at all.
All I can add, by way of footnote to gg's original post, is that I,too, don't read Dinah's post as at all having four statements that put you down or criticized you, or actually anyone.
I'm not even sure what these four statements were.
I don't want to hurt Dinah or you any further by continuing the discussion, but I'm genuinely perplexed.
Nadezda
Posted by 10derHeart on December 10, 2008, at 15:24:30
In reply to Re: changing my phrasing..., posted by Nadezda on December 10, 2008, at 14:35:56
Posted by muffled on December 10, 2008, at 16:20:09
In reply to Re: This is so hard » TherapyGirl, posted by twinleaf on December 8, 2008, at 18:02:23
as ever, this written stuff is SO hard to put context to.
So much of communication involves body language, inflection and tone of voice.
None of this is possible w/written words.
Also the delay doesn't help much either.
It is interesting to discuss this dilemma.
But sometimes I have discovered....its just not possible.
So I call it a day and walk away.
That rhymes.
Day, away.
Hmmm.
Can we discuss, not so much who said what etc, but focus on useful possible ways to help any babbler in distress?
Not what was done in the past, but in general.
The choices are VERY limited IMHO.
1. post gently and civilly
2. b-mail more firmly if you are their friend
3. offer to go and 'chat' with them
4. walk away for a day or two so as not to be triggered
5. blocking may be necessary if others are being blatantly hurt or there is alot of disruption
6. ?My only other comment is wattup w/PBC paranoia!!! Had it myself B4, so I 'get' it. Its all about 'punish' etc for me. That I was 'bad'. My own perceptions, right or wrong.
I wonder how we could 'promote?' PBC's as just what they are (I think?) and that is primarily a teaching thing, a reminder? Think of it a a word from someone who cares enuf to try and teach and help you understand how this place works.
NOT, "OH NO!! I got a PBC now I am gonna get blocked!!! I'm scared! I'm bad, evry one will hate me."
Mebbe better, "oh crap, I got a PBC, where did I go wrong, and how can I do it differently? It kinda feels bad, but at least I am learning, and I (should) only get blocked if I really screw up. Its OK."
Of course I don't even understand some PBC's, but then I have to think to myself, this place is NOT really a true democracy. There is one ultimate king here, and whether or not we agree, Bob is KIng. He has the final word, the ultimate authority. It is HIS site. He owns it, sorta runs it, maintains it, pays for it, and rules it.
Sucks.
But thats the way it is.
Like it or lump it.
Mostly its not SO bad.My ramdom thots.
I feel they are rational, but then I read some of my post from a year ot two back....and I THOT I was rational THEN!!! LOL! but now I read my posts and I wonder what in heck was I thinking????? I was SO convinced at the time....
Sigh.
S'pose I human after all.
Guess thats a good thing.
Hmmm.
Best wishes all.
M
Posted by Tabitha on December 11, 2008, at 3:25:55
In reply to communication w/ just words, a challenge OK, posted by muffled on December 10, 2008, at 16:20:09
I guess it's OK to talk about 'escalating' since nobody has gotten in trouble for it yet.
When I see someone escalating, I assume they're wanting space. Why? Because 'escalating' tends to scare people and drive them away. I assume they realize this. In Babble in particular, escalating usually leads quickly to a block. So I suspect that at some level, the person wants to take a break from the group. (Unless of course they're a new poster and really have no idea how things work around here.)
So the last thing I would do when someone is escalating is make an extra effort to connect with them. At that time, they seem to be pushing people away.
Also, I don't think it's good to reward push-away behavior by becoming more and more caring & concerned at that point. To me that's training a person that escalating is a way to get caring and concern. That training isn't going to serve them well in life.
Posted by stellabystarlight on December 11, 2008, at 18:38:42
In reply to changing my phrasing... » Dinah, posted by twinleaf on December 10, 2008, at 13:10:24
Oh gosh, Twinleaf, I'm so sorry to read about what you've been experiencing lately.
I want you to know that you are not alone...I understand what you are saying and feeling.
I've come to respect and admire you for all you have shown of yourself here,
and I care that you don't feel misunderstood.You are a special person, Twinleaf...sensitive, caring, intelligent, and so much more.
Hope you're taking very good care of yourself.
Sending you ((((( warm and healing hugs, Twinleaf ))))).
And a beautiful fragrant spray of wildflowers to bring you a smile.Stellabystarlight
Posted by rskontos on December 11, 2008, at 18:58:19
In reply to Re: This is so hard » twinleaf, posted by Dinah on December 8, 2008, at 18:23:41
I don't mean to add smoke to the fire but I re-read the statements that Twinleaf refers to as the 4 statements, and I must admit if I had received those statement directly made to me like to her I would have been hurt too. In fact, I would probably leave babble for a while. Deputies posts even not as deputies are scary to me, I don't mean to hurt your feelings but if I can't be honest on Admin. board than where can you be honest.
Dinah I respect you and your hard work. I am not trying to take sides.
It seems to me, in these cases, that words, whether spoken or written are often inadequate. Because intent is never truly known. And sometimes an explanation can not fully let another know intent.
The civility guidelines can try to protect all of us. But in any given situation, in my opinion, someone can get hurt and often times does. I wish it wasn't so but I think this long thread validates my opinion to some degree.
I wasn't going to post anymore, just like I watched SSSS spiral down and was unable to help not knowing how.
But I wanted to express that sometimes not matter how hard someone tries, like Dr. Bob with the guidelines, someone will get hurt.
When you tell someone that has been here a long time the rules, it does come across as either a hurtful thing or a tongue in cheek thing. I know Dinah you did not mean it as either. But the wording of the civility guidelines is so dry that is doesn't let your personality shine forth so it comes across flat. And maybe that is where the hurt comes from.
I don't know if I am explaining this right. But I see why each of you are hurt. H@ll why all of us are hurt.
Maybe there is no happy ending and no way from now on to help others that might find themselves in the same situation as SSSS.
It is unfortunately but maybe just part of life at Babble.
I don't know.
Let's try to be friends again. ok. this is hard on all of us.
The deputies have a hard time. So do us Babblers trying to tiptoe around those darn guidelines.
We do manage to give Support to each most of the time though despite all the human fragility of language and perception.
rsk
Posted by fayeroe on December 12, 2008, at 16:59:06
In reply to Re: changing my phrasing..., posted by Nadezda on December 10, 2008, at 14:35:56
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 18, 2008, at 17:53:37
In reply to Re: the reasons for my post... » Nadezda, posted by twinleaf on December 9, 2008, at 23:40:51
Hi, everyone,
I meant to respond to this thread last week, sorry about not doing so until now.
> I wonder what would happen if more interpretative supportive interactions occurred earlier? If a helpful fellow-poster said something like, " it looks like you feel really bad right now, but maybe it would be better if you didn't make (vulgar or inappropriate ) comments, and talked about how bad you feel instead, they would almost certainly be given a PCB. So, because there isn't a good way to intervene along the way, the whole sequence escalates until the poster in distress gets blocked.
>
> twinleaf> In the future, would it be possible to hit the notify button and say that you are worried about that poster or is that not an option. At least that would get a deputy or Dr. Bob on notice?
>
> So that if you personally don't think you are able to help then someone else might be.
>
> rskSure, you can always notify us, but you can also just post that you're worried about them and don't think you're able to help yourself, but hope someone else might be. There may in fact be effective, yet civil, ways to intervene earlier. For example, what about a variation of the above:
> > It looks like you feel really bad right now, and I don't want you to get in trouble with Dr. Bob, could you talk more about how bad you feel?
--
> Having been blocked myself, I can say from personal experience that it is a painfully rejecting, invalidating experience-the very thing a board dedicated to compassion and understanding should want to avoid whenever possible.
> When I have been blocked here, I have been astonished by how strong my feelings of having been rejected actually are. It is as though I have been part of a tribe, and have suddenly been cast out. At the same time, I have never had the slightest feeling that Bob, or any deputy, have rejecting feelings towards me. ... what has made me feel so rejected and alone ... is that I was suddenly alone and cut off from communication and the possibility of repaired dialogue during a time of heightened need for just those things with just this community..
> I felt somehow guilty, ashamed and alone; the experience seemed to bring up a lot of painful feelings from long ago.
>
> twinleafThanks for distinguishing between us having rejecting feelings and you feeling rejected.
We do know that blocks can be painful, try to avoid them whenever possible, and appreciate brainstorming about how to avoid them more often.
--
> I simply feel uneasy about 230 people observing and/or participating here who are doing so with completely different motivations than what made you and I become attached here.
> how do we know for certain that any administrative thread for the immediate future isn't in some way polluted by the new research and pseudo participants?
>
> TophI understand feeling apprehensive about a bunch of newcomers, and change in general, but I don't see them as having completely different motivations. Also, please don't post anything that could lead others (for example, research participants) to feel put down.
> It is extremely disappointing to me to have each point I made in trying to contribute to a discussion about a recent Babble event subtly distorted and misread so that it could be thrown back at me as an implicit criticism. In this one thread alone, I have been accused of not understanding the rule of remaining supportive, of expecting other posters to act as therapists, of being insensitive to, and ignoring the feelings of, other posters and of considering the deputies to be personally cold and rejecting towards blocked posters.
> I was not expecting to be criticized, misunderstood and put down by a deputy for something as potentially constructive as that.
>
> twinleafI'm sorry if you felt criticized, misunderstood, or put down, but please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused (for example, of distorting, misreading, or accusing).
But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're bad people.
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express oneself are in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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