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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 26 to 50 of 163. Go back in thread:
Posted by alexandra_k on July 10, 2005, at 9:29:01
In reply to Re: Was I hurt?, posted by Deneb on July 9, 2005, at 23:26:38
> I'm really upset that so many people think I'm trying to hurt others on purpose.
I know you aren't trying to hurt others on purpose. I think that sometimes you don't appreciate how other people are likely to respond to what you say. That isn't your fault - but it will make other people a lot more comprehensible to you if you can learn to understand something of why they respond the way they do.
I don't want to see you blocked.
I want to help you understand.
But I don't know that I can.Other people struggle with thoughts about death and SI. They struggle to put them out of their minds and approach life optimistically.
When I hear people talk about this stuff it gets the mental images / thoughts going around in my mind.
And I think Jyl nailed it: casual.
Its not so much joking, but it is casual.And the thing with the trigger warnings...
Is thinking about just how many of ones posts need them.
And thinking about how other people think about suicide.
You might be able to think about it casually and borderline joke about it. But for someone who is stuck there and is coming to believe it might well be their only option then how helpful do you think your attitude about death is?
I didn't mean to hurt you.
But I'll admit I wanted you to stoppit.But can you understand why? Can you understand why?
Posted by alexandra_k on July 10, 2005, at 9:32:41
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, is this civil? If so, please explain, posted by crushedout on July 9, 2005, at 21:19:18
> what you said doesn't qualify as an I-statement.
Sorry, which part?
> > Blockings seem to have a lot to do with stopping situations from escalating. If Deneb was upset by what I said and I kept going I might get a warning / blocking for it.
> that's not my experience of how things work around here.I guess we must have been reading different threads then.
I'm not saying all of them are like that.
But some of them.What part of what I said was accusing, attacking, or putting the other poster down?
And then think about the context in which my post occurred. And the things that provide evidence towards what I said (in case you are worried about my being overgeneralising or accusing).
(Of course I may get blocked for it yet!)
Posted by Deneb on July 10, 2005, at 12:25:20
In reply to Re: Was I hurt? » Deneb, posted by alexandra_k on July 10, 2005, at 9:29:01
>...it will make other people a lot more comprehensible to you if you can learn to understand something of why they respond the way they do.
I know it upsets people. Sometimes I forget this. I'm still not so sure about why it upsets people so much. :-(
> I don't want to see you blocked.
> I want to help you understand.
> But I don't know that I can.Thanks, I know you are just trying to protect me now.
> Other people struggle with thoughts about death and SI. They struggle to put them out of their minds and approach life optimistically.
I still don't understand why it is so taboo. I want to be normal like you.
> When I hear people talk about this stuff it gets the mental images / thoughts going around in my mind.I get them too but I kind of enjoy them for some odd reason. :-(
Just because I'm casual about it doesn't mean I'm never serious about it. It is really evil of me but sometimes I feel like doing something bad to myself just to prove that I was serious about it.
Please never ever taunt me to do it people. I don't want to die.
> But can you understand why? Can you understand why?
I think sometimes I understand.
Deneb
P.S. I think I'm much better now. I don't know what came over me.
Posted by justyourlaugh on July 10, 2005, at 16:28:12
In reply to Re: Understanding others » alexandra_k, posted by Deneb on July 10, 2005, at 12:25:20
deneb...
i feel the casual way you put death and harm into your posts alarming..i do not care if you understand this..i just want to be warned..
so i will avoid all of your posts..
and what has come over you is a "cry for attention".."center stage".."shock talk"..
call a hot line hunny..
Posted by Deneb on July 10, 2005, at 16:31:45
In reply to Re: Seriousness of death, posted by Deneb on July 9, 2005, at 17:24:49
> ODs = _________
>
> ____ is probably a better way anyways.
>
> DenebI realize now that the above was pushing it in terms of discussing ways of harming oneself. I'm very sorry.
Is it permissible to replace certain words with "_____" when discussing these sensitive topics? Or is it just not permissible at all to discuss anything that has anything to do with harming oneself?
Or is it just not permissible to discuss "ways" of harming oneself? I must admit that this is one of my weak spots in terms of civility.
Deneb
Posted by Deneb on July 10, 2005, at 16:37:34
In reply to Re: Understanding others » Deneb, posted by justyourlaugh on July 10, 2005, at 16:28:12
> and what has come over you is a "cry for attention".."center stage".."shock talk"..
> call a hot line hunny..Can I request that you and others please not comment on this further? It upsets me.
thanks
Deneb
Posted by gabbii on July 10, 2005, at 17:43:56
In reply to Re: Sorry about pushing civility guidelines, posted by Deneb on July 10, 2005, at 16:31:45
> I realize now that the above was pushing it in terms of discussing ways of harming oneself. I'm very sorry.
>
> Is it permissible to replace certain words with "_____" when discussing these sensitive topics? Or is it just not permissible at all to discuss anything that has anything to do with harming oneself?
>One poster Yesac started a thread a long time ago asking people who'd attempted if they were glad they recovered. It was an extremely interesting thread and went over very well.
I think giving the actual details and methods would not though, and as was mentioned there are other sites which accomodate that are there not?
Posted by justyourlaugh on July 10, 2005, at 18:02:02
In reply to Re: A request » justyourlaugh, posted by Deneb on July 10, 2005, at 16:37:34
sorry deneb..we wouldnt want you upset by a post now would we..
Posted by Deneb on July 10, 2005, at 18:13:27
In reply to Re: A request » Deneb, posted by justyourlaugh on July 10, 2005, at 18:02:02
> sorry deneb..we wouldnt want you upset by a post now would we..
I said I was sorry. I wish with all my might that I had never written it. I'm sorry it hurt you and others. I don't want anyone to die. Do you want me to die? Cuz I will die if that is what will make it better for you. Is that what you want?
Deneb
Posted by Deneb on July 10, 2005, at 18:18:55
In reply to Re: A request » Deneb, posted by justyourlaugh on July 10, 2005, at 18:02:02
> sorry deneb..we wouldnt want you upset by a post now would we..
I'm sorry I had to do this. I hope we can still be friends. I just can't handle it right now. I hope you understand.
Posted by jay on July 10, 2005, at 18:41:43
In reply to Re: Do u want me to die? » justyourlaugh, posted by Deneb on July 10, 2005, at 18:13:27
> > sorry deneb..we wouldnt want you upset by a post now would we..
>
> I said I was sorry. I wish with all my might that I had never written it. I'm sorry it hurt you and others. I don't want anyone to die. Do you want me to die? Cuz I will die if that is what will make it better for you. Is that what you want?
>
> Deneb
No, Deneb, please, nobody wants you to die. I see the struggle, the push and pull, the will to survive in your posts. You are a great role model...as a 30-something guy, your youthful energy awakens the boy inside of me. Stay true to yourself. :-)Best,
Jay
Posted by alexandra_k on July 10, 2005, at 19:03:04
In reply to Re: Understanding others » Deneb, posted by justyourlaugh on July 10, 2005, at 16:28:12
> what has come over you is a "cry for attention".."center stage".."shock talk".
Posted by Jen Star on July 10, 2005, at 19:13:38
In reply to Re: Do u want me to die? » justyourlaugh, posted by Deneb on July 10, 2005, at 18:13:27
Deneb,
I'm concerned about you right now.To me, the words as written in your post have a tendency to sound somewhat manipulative (when you say that you'll die if another poster wants you to). Do you see this too? I know you might be taking out of hyperbole/exaggeration and probably don't really mean it. But even saying it is troubling to read!
Nobody here wants you to die. Even if they did, for some horrible reason (but they don't!) -- your will overrides that! YOU are the final say in what happens in your life.
I don't think it's acceptable to try and pass off that responsibility to anyone else seriously, jokingly or just as a loose use of words. Your life is YOUR responsibility, and keeping yourself safe is up to YOU. It's not OK to blame babble or babblers for your lack of self-control, or for the way you feel when you get into a bad spot.
Deneb, I like you and I care about you. I want you to be happy, healthy & to live a long fulfilled life! I think you will do that.
sometimes when you're feeling bad & down, your posts about suicide and suicide methods seem to strike a chord of coyness that is out of sync with the feelings of other people here.
Nobody wants you to hurt. What kind of help can we offer here that does NOT discuss suicide methods? Please give that some thought - I'd like to help as best I can over babble.
take care of yourself!
JenStar
Posted by alexandra_k on July 10, 2005, at 19:26:12
In reply to Re: Understanding others » alexandra_k, posted by Deneb on July 10, 2005, at 12:25:20
> I know it upsets people. Sometimes I forget this. I'm still not so sure about why it upsets people so much. :-(
Yeah, it can be hard. I don't blame you for not understanding but I hope you do come to understand.
> Thanks, I know you are just trying to protect me now.I'm trying to help you. I don't know how much help I am / can be. Sometimes I think I'm in a good place because I think I understand where you are coming from because you remind me of me about 7 years ago. But then I also try to be careful that I don't assume you are just like I was - because everybody is different. I also have to be really careful that I don't get caught up in my old ways of thinking. I wouldn't go back there for worlds - and one day you will say the same. I really believe that.
> > Other people struggle with thoughts about death and SI. They struggle to put them out of their minds and approach life optimistically.
> I still don't understand why it is so taboo. I want to be normal like you.ROFL! I'm far from 'normal'. But then who wants to be 'normal' anyways - whatever that means.
It's not that its taboo as such its just that one has to be a bit careful about what one says. When you are in a relatively good place you can talk about it in a light hearted way. But then if someone is in a really bad place and is really struggling to put all those unhelpful thoughts away and not get swept along with them then it can be really very unhelpful to read other peoples light hearted comments on it.
> > When I hear people talk about this stuff it gets the mental images / thoughts going around in my mind.> I get them too but I kind of enjoy them for some odd reason. :-(
Yeah, I used to enjoy them too. When I was in a relatively good place especially. Have you seen the film "Girl Interrupted"? There is a book too. It is really very good. It is about a lady with borderline personality disorder. She had a preoccupation with death too. There are scenes where she is wanting to talk about it and the guy she is with is getting upset about it because he is waiting to see whether he is going to be drafted in vietnam. For her death was an idea she played with. For him death was a horrifying reality. The thing that snapped her out of it was finding her friend after she had hung herself. Suicide is brutal and gory. Most people are a little (or more than a little) afraid of death. And of their own death. Because nobody knows what really happens... Maybe the topic (of ones own death) is a little taboo...
> Just because I'm casual about it doesn't mean I'm never serious about it.Yeah. I get that - I do. But it is thinking about it all the time that makes it seem like a viable option sometimes. It is thinking about it all that time that makes the transition between playing with the idea and really getting the urge to follow through with the idea so insideous. And from there it is just one step again to coming to believe that it is the only viable option. Best to try and counter it at the first step. Easiest to counter it there. One can counter it by being careful not to talk about it in a casual way. By being careful about thinking about it in a casual way. If you want a hand with figuring out how to do that then I'm sure posters here will be willing to help you. People here are really terrific about helping people who want a hand to make their lives better. Even people who really want to want to make their lives better if you can't quite manage the former.
It is hard when thinking about it has become part of your way of life. But it is easier to break the habit when one is relatively okay than it is to try and break the links in the chain when one is going downhill.
>It is really evil of me but sometimes I feel like doing something bad to myself just to prove that I was serious about it.
You aren't evil. I hear what you are saying. I used to get that. I'd ring crisis services and tell them 'I am NOT okay'. They would brush me off. About then I'd get a really strong urge to try something just to prove to everyone that I was serious. Thats a really hard thing to break. Really hard. The truth is... that it is ultimately counter-productive anyway. If you do start doing things like that then the sad truth is that people think you are trying to manipulate them and they do not want to help you anymore :-( So very much better to say that you need a hand because you are having really strong urges and that you don't want to do anything but are having a hard time putting them out of your mind. If people can see that you are trying to help yourself then they are much more willing to go that extra mile in trying to help you.
> Please never ever taunt me to do it people. I don't want to die.I don't want you to die either. I'd never taunt you.
> I think sometimes I understand.:-) Thats good.
You need to get a clinician Deneb.
And I think... You really need to get back to school. You have said before that that was a pretty major thing with respect to giving you a reason to live. Your proff was suprised you left - he said you were going to get an A, remember. You can do this. If your proffs think you can then they would know. You just need to worry about your mental health so that that doesn't prevent you fulfilling your potential. But you need to go back there. Methinks working a dead end job for your uncle, while giving you structure and people contact which is good, is also leaving you feel trapped and like there aren't any prospects for living the life / getting the job that you want to have.It may well be the hardest thing you have ever done but you need to go back.
And you need to get a clinician. You need to be working on your anxiety and all the things that made school so hard so that it'll be easier for you to do it.
> P.S. I think I'm much better now. I don't know what came over me.
Yeah. But it will come back. I'm not meaning to be the harbinger of doom and gloom. But sometimes working out what happened when things go wrong is much easier to do when one is in a good place. And what you figure out when you are in a good place can be helpful to you when you are in a bad place.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 10, 2005, at 19:35:20
In reply to Re: Understanding others » Deneb, posted by alexandra_k on July 10, 2005, at 19:26:12
'Manipulative'
That is a hard one...
What does it mean???
I remember reading all the old literature about how people with borderline personality disorder were supposed to be 'manipulative' and 'attention seeking'.I was horrified. I started to think that maybe I'd be best to kill myself after all. I mean, if I really was like that... But I couldn't do it so I shut myself away from the world instead. I didn't think I deserved to be around people if I was like that. I didnt' think I was like that. But then I worried that maybe I was just in denial... All it did was confirm my worst fears about my ultimately being unacceptable to others.
Linehan critiques these judgements.
When somebody says 'you are manipulative' what they really should say is 'I feel manipulated'. And what do they mean by that????
Emotions can be catchy. Especially is someone is in intense distress. The people around them start to pick up on that feeling too... And it is about ones communication style too.
I remember when I had just started doing DBT and had just returned to uni part time. I was doing this paper on philosophy of language and we were looking at models of communication.
We were looking at the notion of 'uptake' and about how someone expresses their ideas / thoughts / feelings or whatever and the purpose is to INFORM the listener. To INFORM the listener.
Little lights went off for me...
I thought communication was about successfully instilling my thought / feeling (especially) in another person. Because that needed to be done so that they could UNDERSTAND me.And I think it is the latter that people tend to feel manipulated by...
Posted by Deneb on July 10, 2005, at 20:09:00
In reply to Re: Do u want me to die? » Deneb, posted by Jen Star on July 10, 2005, at 19:13:38
>...I know you might be taking out of hyperbole/exaggeration and probably don't really mean it.
I don't know if I really mean it. :-(
I'm afraid of my intense reactions, I can't predict how I'm going to act/react sometimes.> It's not OK to blame babble or babblers for your lack of self-control, or for the way you feel when you get into a bad spot.
I know. I'm not blaming babblers. I don't where you got that idea from. I really don't. :-(
> Nobody wants you to hurt. What kind of help can we offer here that does NOT discuss suicide methods?
I don't know...maybe say you are still my friend even when I sometimes act crazy.
Deneb
Posted by Deneb on July 10, 2005, at 20:15:05
In reply to Re: Understanding others » Deneb, posted by alexandra_k on July 10, 2005, at 19:26:12
You really DO understand me.
I DO need to go back to school. Everything you said makes a lot of sense.
Thanks for the insight...esp. about the manipulation stuff. Thank-you for understanding...or should I say thank-you for the information?
The world makes a little more sense to me now.
Deneb :-)
Posted by crushedout on July 10, 2005, at 23:10:13
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, is this civil? If so, please explain » crushedout, posted by alexandra_k on July 10, 2005, at 9:32:41
> > what you said doesn't qualify as an I-statement.
>
> Sorry, which part?I cut and pasted it in my original post on this subject.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 10, 2005, at 23:59:13
In reply to Dr. Bob, is this civil? If so, please explain why., posted by crushedout on July 9, 2005, at 18:39:26
> > And I think... I think that disrespects them.Sounds like an 'I' statement to me...
Posted by gabbii on July 11, 2005, at 0:41:46
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob, is this civil? If so, please explain » alexandra_k, posted by crushedout on July 10, 2005, at 23:10:13
> > > what you said doesn't qualify as an I-statement.
> >Pax got blocked for a year for saying "I think that's irresponsible" to be an "I statement" He would have had say "I am upset by what you are doing" Or something similar. Preceding something with "I think" isn't enough.
Otherwise someone could say "I think you're stupid" and consider it an "I statement"
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 11, 2005, at 9:35:53
In reply to Dr. Bob, is this civil? If so, please explain why., posted by crushedout on July 9, 2005, at 18:39:26
> Dr. Bob, is this civil? If so, please explain
>
> > I think that disrespects them.No, I wouldn't consider that civil. It could have lead Deneb to feel accused or put down.
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 11, 2005, at 9:37:38
In reply to Deneb, a few thoughts. . . » Deneb, posted by Sarah T. on July 9, 2005, at 23:14:04
> I have read some of your other posts over the last few months, and from many of them, it is clear that you are an extremely intelligent, observant, sensitive person.
Thanks for supporting her, but I'd like to redirect follow-ups that don't have to do with administration to Psycho-Babble Social. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20050708/msgs/526109.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 11, 2005, at 10:30:47
In reply to Re: Do u want me to die? » justyourlaugh, posted by Deneb on July 10, 2005, at 18:13:27
> sorry deneb..we wouldnt want you upset by a post now would we..
>
> justyourlaugh> Do you want me to die? Cuz I will die if that is what will make it better for you.
>
> DenebPlease don't be sarcastic or suggest that others suggest that you harm yourself.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Deneb on July 11, 2005, at 18:47:18
In reply to Re: Please don't post to me » justyourlaugh, posted by Deneb on July 10, 2005, at 18:18:55
Please forgive me. I must have hurt you with my comment. I'm very sorry. I know you don't want me to hurt myself.
((((jyl))))
Deneb
Posted by alexandra_k on July 11, 2005, at 18:50:19
In reply to Re: I rescind my DNP request to JYL, posted by Deneb on July 11, 2005, at 18:47:18
Really.
I never meant to hurt you and I see how it was inappropriate.
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