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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by inthegloaming on March 24, 2004, at 23:04:53
ugh. today has been gut-wrenching. i don't know when i've cried so much. one of my closest friends, like a brother to me, told someone else some information that i didn't want them knowing. so far, it hasn't really impacted the relationship between me and the third party, but i'm so hurt and angry that he told her. it's another mark in a long string of bizarre betrayals. he had no right to take MY personal life into his own hands. sure, the issue has now been aired, but it was presumptuous and grandeouse of him to say that it "had to be done." i don't know what to do with myself right now. i have so much work to do and i'm exaughsted and sick and sad. ugh.
Posted by rainyday on March 25, 2004, at 9:52:47
In reply to more hate--more sadness..., posted by inthegloaming on March 24, 2004, at 23:04:53
Betrayal of a friendship or relationship is the hardest life lesson I have had to deal with so far. It really makes you distrustful of everyone you meet who seems to befriend you. What are their motives? How much should I disclose?
My circle of friends is miniscule. There are only 2 maybe 3 people to whom I feel I can confide. And yet I feel that this betrayal is human nature. People have been $#@%ing each other over for millenia!
For me the solution has been to work on being more self sufficient. Just don't take this stuff personally - we are just not very well equipped to deal with it.
rainyday
Posted by TexasChic on March 25, 2004, at 14:37:43
In reply to more hate--more sadness..., posted by inthegloaming on March 24, 2004, at 23:04:53
I had something similar happen just a couple of weeks ago, except with mine, I had what I had confided thrown back in my face, even though it wasn't true anymore. Its made me leary of confiding in anyone anymore. I found myself thinking, maybe I'll just confide to my therapist, that's what I pay her for. But I don't think I can go through life like that. I'm very upfront and prefer that people are the same to me. It really upsets me when they aren't. I think the key is becoming more self sufficient like the previous poster said. Then maybe I won't feel the need to unload my problems on others, and I won't be as hurt when I'm betrayed. But that's easier said than done. Anyway, I just wanted to let you know I understand, even if I don't have any answers.
Posted by spoc on March 29, 2004, at 20:29:18
In reply to Re: more hate--more sadness..., posted by TexasChic on March 25, 2004, at 14:37:43
Hi,
I'm with you all about the pain involved here. I think sometimes "friends" absolve themselves from facing what they are actually doing (gossiping) by thinking, "I was concerned" or "It was the truth." When in reality, the criteria should be, did they really think you wouldn't mind having the thing known, and/or did it NEED to be known? Otherwise, sorry honey, idle gossip like any other.
I tend to know many people casually, but to consider just a few close. The rest I figure I may someday get to know better if it happens naturally. It was important to me to retain that option and the positive casual relationships and privacy I had. One person who considers us to be friends showed long ago that this would be inadvisable/impossible with her. But she sticks around so I maintain a skeleton relationship with her and give her support where I can stand to, under the philosophy of "keep your enemies near." She is quite the social-climbing gossip monger.
When I started to slip into this exceptionally down and isolated period I'm in, I told the details to very few and prefer to "put up a good front" to the rest. Including this girl, but between me not gracing her with firsthand information and her always being glad for opportunities to look better than others, she filled in the blanks herself and went to town, literally. Started telling everyone from casual acquaintances to ex boyfriends to people I hardly know that I was basically having a creepy breakdown. Even though out of fear of that I always supplied her with other things she could have said, about having disappeared from the social circuit because I was teaching myself new skills/hobbies; writing; visiting my family more; etc.
Now I can't have a day anymore where I feel better and slip out for awhile without someone confronting me with personal questions derived from what this girl said or implied. There have even been times since my depression worsened that I was up to going out and having (or seeming) fun, and she "warned" people that I am not always that way and not to count on it again anytime soon.
I confronted her with her statements many times. When people I don't know well make polite small talk with her by asking how I am doing, they do not expect the kind of detail she goes into. I told her that as a "friend," she should remember that her options in replying should come from the standpoint that it is either GOOD or PRIVATE. BAD should not be an option when discussing my personal life with virtual strangers. But she persisted in saying the same things I was asking her to modify. If a "friend" will spread it around that you may be in a depression and not leaving the house much (so that you are even more self-conscious when you do get out), what won't she do?
Of course in reality she doesn't want to back off, because underneath it all she finally holds the card she wants. And can disguise it as "truth" or "concern." If I emerge from this depression she'll still get to enjoy what she enjoys about me, but she'll also have succeeded in planting doubts about me too. So last week I finally told her everything I really think of her as a person (and I am not alone in that), consequences be damned. And there WILL be consequences. But at least I was finally true to myself and at the moment it seems worth it... Anyway I sure understand where you all are at on this.... : (
===========
> I had something similar happen just a couple of weeks ago, except with mine, I had what I had confided thrown back in my face, even though it wasn't true anymore. Its made me leary of confiding in anyone anymore. I found myself thinking, maybe I'll just confide to my therapist, that's what I pay her for. But I don't think I can go through life like that. I'm very upfront and prefer that people are the same to me. It really upsets me when they aren't. I think the key is becoming more self sufficient like the previous poster said. Then maybe I won't feel the need to unload my problems on others, and I won't be as hurt when I'm betrayed. But that's easier said than done. Anyway, I just wanted to let you know I understand, even if I don't have any answers.
Posted by TexasChic on March 30, 2004, at 8:21:32
In reply to Re: GOSSIP by any other name is still..., posted by spoc on March 29, 2004, at 20:29:18
Thanks Spoc. Live long and prosper. \\// (That's supposed to be four fingers split in a 'V').
Its good to know other people understand. Especially when the person just won't admit to any wrong doing and acts like you're just crazy or something (and of course has told mutual friends the same). I hope inthegloaming feels a little better knowing he/she's not alone in this.
Posted by spoc on March 30, 2004, at 11:17:23
In reply to Re: GOSSIP by any other name is still..., posted by TexasChic on March 30, 2004, at 8:21:32
> Its good to know other people understand. Especially when the person just won't admit to any wrong doing and acts like you're just crazy or something (and of course has told mutual friends the same). >
This all sounds so bad to 'cry' about, even when it's real. And I am in a notoriously cliquey area now, and have to work with what's on my plate. I have never been comfortable around cliques. We call it "Three degrees of separation" because you really can't meet anyone here who doesn't end up having ties to many others you know. I know that "good" people aren't supposed to let gossip affect their opinion, but it's just not that simple once people have been told there's something not right about you. I don't care about impressing anyone; just about there being accuracy if they have to talk at all. Because my current depression does *not* affect the good things people can still expect from me, except going out a lot. This "friend" knows that herself, when she keeps me on the phone to give her support for hours and hours every week.
She pulled what you said above for a long time, because she didn't know people had not only been citing her 'concern' and asking me "what's wrong;" but that some actually repeated to me some of the meaner things she said. She forgets that while I lost touch with many of them long ago, in better times I had introduced her to a lot of them originally, and they trust me enough to let me in on this. But because of that trust I also couldn't quote them to her, because I didn't want to start trouble for everyone. It was knowing what she was saying to people who already did know me somewhat that made me even more worried about what she'd get away with when talking to people who don't, but that I may want to have a fresh chance with someday without rumors preceding me.
Anyway at one point I thought there was hope for the situation, because once when she had immediately turned to a little group to complain that I was being "paranoid" again, one of the girls basically said, "Uh, what are you doing right this minute?" and pointed out to her the fact that she really is saying these things, but just assumes I'm only guessing and that therefore it doesn't exist. She came pretty close to apologizing after that, but it didn't last...
We get victimized more than once by gossip, because it's one area where even if you are justified, explaining what happened and your feelings about it somehow seems to pull you down to the gossiper's level and make you sound petty too. I was very hurt when I started (and soon quit) therapy recently, when the first thing I wanted to do was vent the frustration because that week someone had just left a message saying "Better come meet us -- X says you've turned into Howard Hughes over there." I had thought I was starting a "healing" kind of therapy for depression and procrastination, rather than the particular kind of psychoanalysis it turned out to be, where only personality disorders would be hunted for. So my upset was strictly "situational," but from how this pdoc proceeded, I think he may have been trying to make me fit into a box that I don't fit into. Great, the wonders of having been gossiped about never cease. I guess you're just supposed to keep the pain to yourself and always take the high road, or you're just as bad.
Anyway, thanks for your response and thanks for listening. I too hope you and Inthegloaming -- and me -- soon feel better! I like the \\//! That's a new one to me, did you invent it? : )
Posted by TexasChic on March 30, 2004, at 13:04:45
In reply to Re: GOSSIP by any other name is still... » TexasChic, posted by spoc on March 30, 2004, at 11:17:23
I know what you mean about getting into it with them and lowering yourself to their level. You just end up trying to justify yourself over and over to this person who is going to find fault no matter what you say. You know its best to just ignore it, but you feel the need to take up for yourself. Yeah, its a tricky situation. I guess you just have to wing it and do what you feel is best at the time. As for the \\// thing, yeah I just made it up when I wrote it. Just me being silly.
Posted by TexasChic on March 30, 2004, at 13:43:07
In reply to Re: GOSSIP by any other name is still..., posted by TexasChic on March 30, 2004, at 13:04:45
I just wanted to say not all pdocs or therapists are like the one you described. I've read about alot of bad experiences on this board and it makes me grateful that I stumbled upon the one that I did. There's no labeling, no talking about my childhood – she's all about what I need to help me deal with what's happening right now. I've learned how to be more assertive, and how to not belittle myself and beat myself up for mistakes, how to relax (or try to anyway), and she even gives me career advice. I've just learned to be a better me, flaws and all. Of course its a work in progress, but it always amazes me when I realize how far I've come. I hope will keep looking, there's got to be one out there that is right for you too. Good luck!
Posted by spoc on March 30, 2004, at 14:55:49
In reply to Re: P.S. to above post, posted by TexasChic on March 30, 2004, at 13:43:07
> I just wanted to say not all pdocs or therapists are like the one you described. I've read about alot of bad experiences on this board and it makes me grateful that I stumbled upon the one that I did. There's no labeling, no talking about my childhood – she's all about what I need to help me deal with what's happening right now. I've learned how to be more assertive, and how to not belittle myself and beat myself up for mistakes, how to relax (or try to anyway), and she even gives me career advice. I've just learned to be a better me, flaws and all. Of course its a work in progress, but it always amazes me when I realize how far I've come. I hope will keep looking, there's got to be one out there that is right for you too. Good luck!
-----
Thank you for reminding me how it can and should be. Through surfing in on this board recently I was able to put it in perspective much more quickly than otherwise would have been the case, if ever. It still hurts emotionally (and financially), but at least I am overcoming the tendency (borne of the self-doubt that took me there originally) to assume he, as the "expert," must be right across the board.I should know that's not true just based on how he seemed to prefer to let my escalating default stess habits proliferate for now, in favor of seeing if they'd clear up by themselves after God knows how many years of coming in through some side door and going at things his way. I went in saying "Please discuss with me these baby steps I have in mind to help yank me out of the progressive and predictable patterns my days are taking; I need first and foremost to stop these things NOW before any light has a chance of getting in." But he acted as if it was almost out of place to set such goals, as if that would disturb the long-term case study he was embarking on with me.
So, not only no positivity whatsoever, but also zero intention of discussing even my own ideas for how I could modify the ugly shape my days are taking. Ditto any attempts at discussing career-related elements, which was the number one thing I mentioned when I initially consulted with him. I really feel like it was the bait and switch; before we commenced I told him what I was looking for (including that any med advice go beyond "Take an SSRI"), and he could have -- but did NOT -- advise me that what I wanted was not what he was selling. Everything about me shot downhill before his eyes to have been met with this when I had been hopeful for so much the opposite, but still he refused to give even a passing glance to any practical, in-the-moment assistance.
ANYWAY that stuff still spurts out of me, it's still fresh. But bottom line is you're right; and I know it; and I should keep the faith and look again. : )
Posted by TexasChic on March 30, 2004, at 15:51:47
In reply to Re: P.S. to above post » TexasChic, posted by spoc on March 30, 2004, at 14:55:49
Just remember these guys work for YOU. If they aren't what you had in mind, fire them! That thought always helps me when dealing with any kind of doctor, and I got it from this very board! Good luck!
Posted by inthegloaming on March 31, 2004, at 8:17:53
In reply to Re: P.S. to above post, posted by TexasChic on March 30, 2004, at 15:51:47
hey guys;
thanks for all the posts of stories and well-wishes. i think this stuff kinda hits us harder for some reason, since many of us are/were broken in other ways.
ugh, i'm just so embarrassed. for the way i acted, for liking this girl in general.... she says it's all good between us but then she'll slip in something like 'i'm still confused about... never mind' and then will clam up about it. i'm left panicky and unresolved. i think i just need to clean up this self-hate and undo the brain poisioning i picked up when i was younger... the feeling of being toxic, etc. etc. siiigh. easier said than done.
-g.
Posted by spoc on March 31, 2004, at 16:02:16
In reply to heyhey, posted by inthegloaming on March 31, 2004, at 8:17:53
> ugh, i'm just so embarrassed. for the way i acted, for liking this girl in general.... she says it's all good between us but then she'll slip in something like 'i'm still confused about... never mind' and then will clam up about it. i'm left panicky and unresolved. i think i just need to clean up this self-hate and undo the brain poisioning i picked up when i was younger... the feeling of being toxic, etc. etc. siiigh. easier said than done.> > -g.
<<< Ya know it sounds like the opposite of a healthy thing to do on the surface, but I have found that "Faking it til I make it," applied prudently, does help. Meaning now, when I meet new people, I have kind of taught myself to step back and think about how a person who isn't insecure would approach any given situation. I apply it to everything from how much it's time to show/divulge to the chances that a "normal" person would react to something the way I may find myself tempted to react -- to a slight that probably isn't even there. It helps me proceed with new friendships/acquaintances with the increased self-respect of knowing I haven't given it away too soon that I am so oversensitive. I ask myself, What personality traits do the people who never seem to have trouble with anyone have? And I will not fake having any I don't have, but I will focus on accentuating the ones I do have.
I think of it as taking care of ME rather than supressing, because I too dislike it when I feel like I have gone too far and that the "power balance" (which we have to admit does exist in all relationships) has become too skewed. This may be only a remedy for the surface but it has given me more solid ground to build on once I do go on to start to get to know the person better.... First impressions stick -- we can let some weirdness slip later and it may go relatively unnoticed/unobjected to! Don't know if that makes any sense!
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