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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Karen_kay on February 4, 2004, at 12:47:20
So, everything is relative. And I'm not even sure if this will make sense because I know it doesn't make sense to me. And there's fact and fiction. But there's also manipulation. Like, I know I'm thin, but only because a scale says so, or a BMI chart. And I know I'm tall, but only because I know my height. And I think I'm nice, but only because the "nice" things I do outweigh the mean things I do. Or do they? And a year ago, I wasn't sexually abused. But, out of nowhere, voila, I was. The mind is tricky like that.
So, how is it that you judge your own character, your own beauty, your own EVERYTHING???? Sure, you can walk around saying, "Gee, I'm a nice person. And bad things don't happen to me. And I pay taxes. And my dog loves me. And I'm pretty. And I'm thin." But, aren't you just lying to yourself? Because there's always going to be someone out there who better at everything else than you are. I guess my question is are we all just lying to ourselves about everything? I mean just because you do nice things, does that really make you a nice person? Can't you just lie to yourself and eventually you begin to think you're a nice person, regardless of whether that's true? And can't you just lie to yourself long enough so that you think you are pretty, or intelligent, or good at something?
I don't know, I just think I'm tired of lying. I mean I lied about some things and now they're coming back to haunt me. I just want some answers. Is it OK to lie about some things and not others? Is there a standard? Am I just dumb here? Does anyone else wonder about this? Does this make any sense at all? I mean with the abuse, I'm suffering from it. I just want reality, if there is such a thing. YES!!! That's my question.... Is reality just perception??? If it is, then mine's pretty slanted.... But in a good way I think... How's everyone else's view of reality??? I think everyone is a good person. And I think we'll all be OK. In fact, I think we'll all turn out great. Does that make me optimistic or blind?
(And when I say "lie", I mean tell yourself you are good at something when it may not be true. Or dissociate from a situation that may be tramatic. Or repeatedly tell yourself you're gorgeous, when you don't really believe it. I don't mean lie your way out of a speeding ticket :)) Tell me I'm not the only liar here....
Posted by fallsfall on February 4, 2004, at 13:17:06
In reply to Reality or perception?, posted by Karen_kay on February 4, 2004, at 12:47:20
Well, I can tell you how *I* do it, but I'm 99.9% sure that the way *I* do it is WRONG. So - this is how you shouldn't do it.
I get my evaluations of myself from other people. If lots of people say that I'm helpful to other people, then I figure I'm helpful. If one person says I'm beautiful and nobody else says anything, then I figure that I'm not THAT beautiful (and may be unattractive). Some things have concrete measures - like if you did really well on the SATs then you are probably smart.
Of course, the ultimate authority on my worth is my therapist. If he doesn't tell me about something that I think he has an opinion on (and he usually doesn't tell me...), then I search for clues and guess. I try to validate the guesses by doing more or less of whatever it is and try to see his reaction. Or sometimes by asking him (but you can't ask most other people - except maybe your best friend).
This was a problem when my first therapist got fed up with me - boy did my self esteem plummet!
I did some research at that time about self esteem and I think that this is how it is *supposed* to work. Each person makes their own determination about their worth. Then you listen to what the outside world tells you - and who is telling you what. There are some people who you really trust and really care about. Their opinions are worth more than people you don't like. So you take what you think and "moderate" it by what others think - so if you think that you are shy, and people keep telling you how outgoing you are you might start thinking that you aren't quite so shy afterall. But you don't just switch your view just because other people say something - you just adjust it in that direction. (Otherwise our views would be swinging wildly all the time - hmmm - sort of like mine do...) And you compare yourself to other people - but it is always hard to do that because you know so much more about yourself than you do about them.
So, I think the point is that you have to come to a first, basic understanding of yourself, and then you add in input from outside as a sanity check for your views. At least, I THINK this is how it is supposed to work.
Posted by Penny on February 4, 2004, at 13:28:31
In reply to Reality or perception?, posted by Karen_kay on February 4, 2004, at 12:47:20
(((Karen Kay)))
You're in school, right? (Sorry if I'm mistaken) - what is your major? Because you should seriously consider philosophy. Not that it will earn you a living at some point in the future, but b/c you would be good at it! But that's merely a side note (philosophy was my second major in college).
I have asked myself (why am I saying 'have' - I still do!) these same questions - and I don't know what to believe anymore! I do think, however, that if folks are sooooo certain that their version of 'the almighty truth' is the ONLY right answer, they are fooling themselves.
I do think reality is perceived. I think that anything (and I mean anything) can be argued against - anything 'truth' can be challenged. May not be challenged very convincingly, but if someone wants to believe something, even something incorrect, he/she will.
As for our 'truths' about ourselves - therapists (most of them, anyway!) tell us that we should be telling ourselves good things about ourselves - we should believe we are attractive, good, kind, caring, intelligent, and so on. Not to the extreme that it becomes narcissistic, but, considering that most of us think the exact opposite about ourselves, that's not usually a problem.
Are you a nice person? I think so. But that's my impression of you. Does it make it so? Of course not - I'm judging your 'niceness' based on my interaction with you here. Someone else might have a different impression (though I doubt it, judging by the posts you receive from others).
What do you think, Karen, would qualify you as a 'nice' person?
I wonder the same thing about myself. I mean, I used to mentor children, in college and before I moved. I've rescued quite a few animals. I babysit and folks trust me with their young children. I try to not intentionally hurt someone else's feelings - I try to not unintentionally hurt someone else's feelings too!
But am I 'nice'? I'm sure that would depend on who you ask. Have I gotten drawn into petty bickering before? Of course. Have I made of fun of other people? I'm ashamed to say so, but yes. Not to the person's face, but behind his/her back, which might be even worse. Not to mention that, having been picked on, teased and bullied in school, and knowing how bad it feels to be the odd man out, so to speak, I did it anyway. Do I still, even today, see people sometimes on the street and think, "OMG - what is wrong with her?" or "She really needs to do something about that..." Not that I would ever say those things to someone's face, or even say them to someone I was with about the person on the street, but it doesn't prevent me from thinking them.
So, does that mean I'm not 'nice'? Maybe so - but what I think is that NONE of us - well, maybe Mother Teresa was an exception, though I don't know too much about her and she's not living anymore - is ALWAYS 100% nice. Neither are ANY of us 100% mean. We're all some mixture of good and evil, like it or not - we all experience jealousy at times, we have all said things we regret at times, and the best we can do, Karen, is to learn from those things and try to move on and not repeat the same mistakes. Or find a personal level of 'not-niceness' that you're comfortable with - don't have a problem with thinking bad things about the crazy driver who's holding up traffic? So be it - I don't mind. Even if that driver is me (not that it would be... :-)
As for beauty - I'm sure there are some rare people who nearly everyone on the planet would agree is beautiful (we're just talking about looks here). But most of us are normal looking. And even some of us who are considered 'beautiful' aren't to everyone - I still don't think Brooke Shields was/is that pretty, even though she was considered to be, and I guess still is.
But, if you think you're gorgeous, who's to disagree? If you flaunt it, you might get some public disagreement, but if you truly believe it, you won't care, will you? If you know that it is true FOR YOU that you are gorgeous, then who cares what so-and-so thinks? And if you believe it and so-and-so doesn't, it doesn't mean one of you is right and the other is wrong - it simply means you have differing opinions. But when it comes to what you think of YOU - what YOU think is the only thing that really matters. You have to live with yourself everyday - so you need to like yourself at the least. (I can't practice what I'm preaching, tho', so don't ask me to - I personally find myself disgusting and loathing more often than not.)
Of course, there are other issues that we could get into - morals, cultural norms, etc., but, in general, as long as you're not hurting other people, even if you're not helping them either, you're probably 'safe' as far as morals go. That's a long drawn-out discussion that could bring a great deal of dissent among the babble masses I'm sure, but ultimately, IMHO, as long as you're not hurting other people intentionally, and avoiding hurting them unintentionally, you probably have nothing to worry about.
As long as you're comfortable with your own level of 'niceness', that is.
P
Posted by Karen_kay on February 4, 2004, at 13:45:50
In reply to Re: Reality or perception? » Karen_kay, posted by fallsfall on February 4, 2004, at 13:17:06
The people you trust ARE GOING TO LIE!!!! Your friends are going to tell you that your arse looks big. They aren't going to tell you that you aren't really intelligent. Your best friends aren't going to tell you that your perception on reality is wrong. Those are the people that you can't trust.
Take for instance... I have a friend who admittedly look like the girl ogre on "Shrek"... She pointed it out to me. Now, she's always telling me, "I look hotter than you, ect." And I always agree with her (but I don't in my head and I'm just waiting for the day when she REALLY makes me mad and I can finally tell her...) but she also has a VERY negative view of reality and people in general. She refuses to speak to anyone who appears to have any money of sorts, because she doesn't accept a lifestyle of overindulvence, though she's overweight. She also holds the assumption that people who have money, or come from money, think are rude and don't like people who don't have money. So, she refuses to speak to them. So, basically she's doing what she dislikes to the people she dislikes. She also believes that everyone has some sort of agenda to hurt everyone else. While I try to convince her that isn't true, she is better at debating so I just give up.
The people you trust aren't the ones who will tell you the truth. My therapist wouldn't say I'm ugly, even if he thought it. Would a therapist tell a person they were ugly if he thought it were true? Come on, that woudl be harmful to the client. Or telling the client he were unintelligent, or anything else that may be harmful, even if it were true...
And how can you determine your worth if you find out it is based on lies? Or is it OK to just lie to yourself if it makes everything OK? I guess my problem is that I've just been "lying" so long I don't know what the truth is. I want so hard to believe everyone is good, completely good. But I know that isn't true. But, it seems my whole life is fantasy. And my therapist doesn't seem to think that's normal or healthy. But, isn't it better to think good thoughts than to realize that bad things do happen? I mean, I'd rather not know about bad things and continue living a fantasy than to realize that bad things do happen and have to deal with them... That's sad and I don't like to be sad. I'm just now realizing how much I sound like a child. I really wish I had a normal mother to call right now. :( Why does the world have to have bad things too? Can't we just *wish* them away? On the count of three now...
Posted by Dinah on February 4, 2004, at 17:06:47
In reply to Reality or perception?, posted by Karen_kay on February 4, 2004, at 12:47:20
Ok, I'll give you my probably warped view. I have always, always, been inordinately aware that "reality" isn't real at all, just a perception. That what I see is just a representation of what's in front of me. That we only have a microscopic view from our vantage point of what reality actually is. That we could all really just be figments of someone else's imagination. All sorts of weird thoughts about reality.
And as for my belief as to whether we are "good" or not. I think we are our choices (to quote Dumbledore). If you consistently choose to do good, despite your hidden thoughts, then you're pretty good. And if you constantly harm others despite the best of intentions, well then maybe you need to give yourself another good hard look. We can't choose how we feel, or even our thoughts a lot of the time. But we can choose how we act on those feelings and thoughts. In the end, our choices define our character. Harry Potter contains a lot of wisdom. :)
Posted by gardenergirl on February 4, 2004, at 18:07:17
In reply to Re: Reality or perception? » Karen_kay, posted by Dinah on February 4, 2004, at 17:06:47
I have to admit, this thread is making my head spin a bit. I should have taken more philosophy in undergrad.
But at the risk of totally missing the big and little picture, and also risking derailing the thread...
Could the gist of your question be an example of black and white thinking? (ducks and cringes) All or nothing? KK, I find you to be nice. I believe that I am nice, but I certainly have done or said not nice things in the past. I don't know anyone who is either all nice or all bad.
I believe we all have good in us, but then I am a humanist and believe in each individual's potential.
Oh how I wish the world and all people in it were good and there was never evil, especially the kind that makes absolutely no sense. But it seems like that world would lose some of it's richness, poignancy, and potential. It almost seems like it would not be satisfying.
I'm just as lost, I think.
gg
Posted by Karen_kay on February 4, 2004, at 19:18:59
In reply to Re: Reality or perception?, posted by gardenergirl on February 4, 2004, at 18:07:17
Does it have to be black and white thinking though??? Can;t it be considered optimism instead?? Why does it have to be a disorder instead of a positive trait, huh????? That's what I don't understand... Why are all of my positive qualities suddenly turned into personality disorder traits....
Posted by Penny on February 4, 2004, at 20:47:27
In reply to Re: Reality or perception? » Karen_kay, posted by Dinah on February 4, 2004, at 17:06:47
Thanks for quoting Dumbledore! He truly is a wise wizard...
:-)
P
Posted by gardenergirl on February 4, 2004, at 23:23:21
In reply to Re: Reality or perception? » gardenergirl, posted by Karen_kay on February 4, 2004, at 19:18:59
Oh Karen Kay. I was trying so hard to put that gently. I don't believe at all that your questions are a result of a personality disorder. Everyone engages in black and white thinking at times. And of course we all wish the world was a less confusing, happy place where bad things don't happen to good people. God, wouldn't that ease so much suffering?
And you are absolutely right, having that wish is a form of hope and optimism. And we all need that in order to even get out of bed in the morning. But the world, unfortunately, is not so. I guess I thought I was picking up something in your post/thought process (it seemed like you were thinking aloud a bit?) that suggested that you were having trouble existing in both places--in that hopeful wish for better things AND the reality of the world as it is.
But you may also have just been posing your take on a classic philosphical dilemma. I know when I was reading the thread, I really did feel like my head was spinning. I was really tired and had just come out of a session, and then straight into supervision. Please forgive me for forgetting to take off my T hat before I logged on. Sometimes it slips down over my eyes a bit and I can't see clearly. :)
Forgive me?
gg
Posted by Karen_kay on February 5, 2004, at 7:41:56
In reply to Re: Reality or perception? » Karen_kay, posted by gardenergirl on February 4, 2004, at 23:23:21
Of course I forgive you. Something strange happened last night. I set out with a friend to go to the grocery and decided out of the blue to take the long way, as "We were looking for an adventure." She didn't agree with the idea, as it was already 9 pm and we hadn't eaten yet, but I wouldn't change my mind. On the way there, I rolled down my window and began speaking with a man at a stop light, just basic chit-chat. After the light changed, she said, "You speak to people while you're in your car? You're weird!" That REALLY hurt my feelings! Why not talk to people? Isn't that why we're here? We aren't here to ignore eachother are we? Then on the way, a car was pulled over on the side of the road, so I pulled over and she was again beig a bit difficult but I stuck my imaginary fingers in my ears and proceeded to assist the car that was idling. There were 2 ladies and a baby who had been stuck for over 30 minutes with no gas and NO ONE else had stopped to help them. (CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT??? It's a VERY busy road!!!) Several police officers had stopped, but had other business to attend to. Now, it's about 25 degrees outside. I gave the girl a ride to a gas station and made sure she had enough money for gas, which she did. It was even the baby's birthday... So, after that, my friend said she wouldn't have stopped. I got to the supermarket and talk to a stranger for about 25 minutes about his dog. He seemed lonely, as he just moved here from a different state and there isn't much to do. She commented on the fact that I didn't know that guy...
I asked her for an honest evaluation about me and she said I'm too superficial and too impulsive....
Well, you know what??? If being superficial and impulsive means that you talk to a stranger in a supermarket who just moved here from a different state and was probably pretty lonely, I'll take superficial and impulsive. If it means helping someone who's stuck in the cold, I don't care.... I'm almost seeing my friend in a different light now. And that's what's bothering me. She seemed rather annoyed that I took time out of our "busy" schedule to talk to someone who was lonely, that I took time out of our "busy (and I'm being sarcastic, as our fat stomachs can wait mind you!) schedule to help someone WHO NO ONE else would (AND WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT PICTURE ANYWAY?????), and she seemed really annoyed and disturbed that I talk to people at stop lights.It bothered me a LOT that people always describe me with the word impulsive and black and white thinking comes up so often, as well as manipulative (BIGGIES for BPD), but after yesterday I realized, I'd rather have every trait for BPD and be me and more importantly be nice than not be me and not fit the characteristics and not be...Well, just not be me!!! Most importantly not be the good person I am :) (Even if it takes me 2 hours to grocery shop! Because I do far more than grocery shop, I like to think I help humanity, even if I'm not awarded the Nobel Peace Prize, just yet anyway)
Posted by gardenergirl on February 5, 2004, at 8:25:18
In reply to Re: Reality or perception? » gardenergirl, posted by Karen_kay on February 5, 2004, at 7:41:56
Posted by fallsfall on February 5, 2004, at 9:39:03
In reply to Re: Reality or perception? » gardenergirl, posted by Karen_kay on February 5, 2004, at 7:41:56
Karen,
You know who you are. You like who you are.
You are one of the lucky ones.
You rock.
Falls
Posted by Angielala on February 5, 2004, at 9:57:00
In reply to Re: Reality or perception? » gardenergirl, posted by Karen_kay on February 5, 2004, at 7:41:56
Wow Karen, you just made me feel normal for the first time in a long time! I talk to EVERYONE as well, and always stop for broken down people when I can (sometimes I don't notice until I'm in the fast lane, blah blah blah) and if I can't stop, I always call Triple AAA or the state police to help. People will always comment about my actions like that, and it's the one characteristic I love about my BPD- just being open to talking to random people. I have made a lot of friends this way and I have met a lot of wonderful people. When I'm stuck in traffic, I roll down my window and start chit-chatting with the car next to me too. I sing at kareoke bars just to make people laugh.... and people can think that I'm weird all they want, but at least I know that I'm entertaining and personable. This is probably why so many people are surprised that I'm so BP- my closest friends call me the "sad clown" I make people laugh and feel good, and then I go home and cry. How come I can be so outgoing, yet still feel so inferior?
> Of course I forgive you. Something strange happened last night. I set out with a friend to go to the grocery and decided out of the blue to take the long way, as "We were looking for an adventure." She didn't agree with the idea, as it was already 9 pm and we hadn't eaten yet, but I wouldn't change my mind. On the way there, I rolled down my window and began speaking with a man at a stop light, just basic chit-chat. After the light changed, she said, "You speak to people while you're in your car? You're weird!" That REALLY hurt my feelings! Why not talk to people? Isn't that why we're here? We aren't here to ignore eachother are we? Then on the way, a car was pulled over on the side of the road, so I pulled over and she was again beig a bit difficult but I stuck my imaginary fingers in my ears and proceeded to assist the car that was idling. There were 2 ladies and a baby who had been stuck for over 30 minutes with no gas and NO ONE else had stopped to help them. (CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT??? It's a VERY busy road!!!) Several police officers had stopped, but had other business to attend to. Now, it's about 25 degrees outside. I gave the girl a ride to a gas station and made sure she had enough money for gas, which she did. It was even the baby's birthday... So, after that, my friend said she wouldn't have stopped. I got to the supermarket and talk to a stranger for about 25 minutes about his dog. He seemed lonely, as he just moved here from a different state and there isn't much to do. She commented on the fact that I didn't know that guy...
>
> I asked her for an honest evaluation about me and she said I'm too superficial and too impulsive....
> Well, you know what??? If being superficial and impulsive means that you talk to a stranger in a supermarket who just moved here from a different state and was probably pretty lonely, I'll take superficial and impulsive. If it means helping someone who's stuck in the cold, I don't care.... I'm almost seeing my friend in a different light now. And that's what's bothering me. She seemed rather annoyed that I took time out of our "busy" schedule to talk to someone who was lonely, that I took time out of our "busy (and I'm being sarcastic, as our fat stomachs can wait mind you!) schedule to help someone WHO NO ONE else would (AND WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT PICTURE ANYWAY?????), and she seemed really annoyed and disturbed that I talk to people at stop lights.
>
> It bothered me a LOT that people always describe me with the word impulsive and black and white thinking comes up so often, as well as manipulative (BIGGIES for BPD), but after yesterday I realized, I'd rather have every trait for BPD and be me and more importantly be nice than not be me and not fit the characteristics and not be...Well, just not be me!!! Most importantly not be the good person I am :) (Even if it takes me 2 hours to grocery shop! Because I do far more than grocery shop, I like to think I help humanity, even if I'm not awarded the Nobel Peace Prize, just yet anyway)
This is the end of the thread.
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