![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on November 1, 2001, at 18:06:26
This week I am having shame attacks. They're sort of like panic attacks in that they seem to come without reason. All of the sudden, I just feel all the physical sensations of shame. Burning cheeks, wanting to hide my face and all. At first they came with some OCD type nonspecific thoughts, but now the shame just comes on its own. I am even waking up in the middle of the night feeling shame.
All in all it's not that bad, especially now that I am not having any accompanying thoughts. It beats anxiety and depression. It's just weird to see how my brain misfunctions sometimes. I can just see all those "shame" neurons happily firing away.
Posted by Phil on November 1, 2001, at 18:21:58
In reply to Anyone else have shame attacks?, posted by Dinah on November 1, 2001, at 18:06:26
I think Stewart Smalley, remember him? Called them shame spirals and, during spirals, would lock himself in his room and eat Fig Newtons!
Shame is a tough thing to sort out..the worst for me.Phil
Posted by Dinah on November 1, 2001, at 18:33:37
In reply to Stewart Smalley, posted by Phil on November 1, 2001, at 18:21:58
I loved Stuart Smalley! I still can't do affirmations because everytime I try I burst out laughing.
What was it?
"I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and doggone it, people like me."
It ruined cognitive therapy and 12 step programs for me forever.
Posted by susan C on November 1, 2001, at 18:45:11
In reply to Re: Stewart Smalley » Phil, posted by Dinah on November 1, 2001, at 18:33:37
> I loved Stuart Smalley! I still can't do affirmations because everytime I try I burst out laughing.
> What was it?
> "I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and doggone it, people like me."
> It ruined cognitive therapy and 12 step programs for me forever.
Posted by Dinah on November 1, 2001, at 19:11:08
In reply to Re: Stewart Smalley, more information PLEASE! » Dinah, posted by susan C on November 1, 2001, at 18:45:11
It's an old Saturday Night Live skit by Al Franken. There was also a movie "Stuart Saves His Family". If I remember correctly, Stuart had a self help show on TV. He cautioned that he was not a professional but was a member of many twelve step programs. I'm going to have to watch the movie again.
Posted by susan C on November 1, 2001, at 19:19:36
In reply to Re: Stewart Smalley, more information PLEASE! » susan C, posted by Dinah on November 1, 2001, at 19:11:08
Posted by Shar on November 1, 2001, at 21:06:20
In reply to Stewart Smalley, posted by Phil on November 1, 2001, at 18:21:58
x > I think Stewart Smalley, remember him? Called them shame spirals and, during spirals, would lock himself in his room and eat Fig Newtons!
> Shame is a tough thing to sort out..the worst for me.
>
> Phil
Posted by Phil on November 2, 2001, at 7:04:01
In reply to Phil - - Exactly what I thought of !! np, posted by Shar on November 1, 2001, at 21:06:20
Posted by Dinah on November 2, 2001, at 8:23:20
In reply to I could go for some Fig Newtons right now!! (nm), posted by Phil on November 2, 2001, at 7:04:01
Posted by Roo on November 2, 2001, at 8:55:35
In reply to Re: Stewart Smalley, more information PLEASE! » susan C, posted by Dinah on November 1, 2001, at 19:11:08
>yEP- shame attacks--I've been having them lately
too and thinking about the feeling of shame a lot
lately. Thanks for posting about this. It's easy
to think you're "the only one". I think my shame
attacks mostly come when I'm dealing with other people
and somehow feeling "I'm doing something wrong". I
think we who are prone to shame attacks must have been
shamed a lot as children. My therapist told me the
other day that there's nothing wrong with shame or
guilt and that it can actually be a useful tool if we
use it correctly to actually right the situations where
we've actually wronged someone. But that my shame
mechanism seemed to be firing at inappropriate times--when
I hadn't actually done anything. It's true. My homework
assignment this week was just to notice shame when it
came up and then ask myself "Is this shame justified?"...
if so, repair the situation, if not, let it go. Easier
said than done.Stewart Smalley! Yes! I always laughed my ass off
at him. I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and doggonit
people like me. I'll have to rent the movie!
Posted by Krazy Kat on November 2, 2001, at 11:31:50
In reply to Re: Stewart Smalley, more information PLEASE! » susan C, posted by Dinah on November 1, 2001, at 19:11:08
Do, Dinah, it's so very funny. I actually own it.
Posted by Noa on November 2, 2001, at 14:46:46
In reply to Anyone else have shame attacks?, posted by Dinah on November 1, 2001, at 18:06:26
Great question!
Very definitely--most of my anxiety attacks are shame based. I think it is true that shame can be useful, but too much can be extremely debilitating--I think useful shame is like a water droplet and intense shame is like a hurricane with monsoon flooding.
Posted by Cecilia on November 3, 2001, at 4:15:28
In reply to Re: Anyone else have shame attacks?, posted by Noa on November 2, 2001, at 14:46:46
> Great question!
>
> Very definitely--most of my anxiety attacks are shame based. I think it is true that shame can be useful, but too much can be extremely debilitating--I think useful shame is like a water droplet and intense shame is like a hurricane with monsoon flooding.I have horrible shame attacks plus a constant feeling of low level shame about practically everything. It doesn`t feel useful-it`s mostly about stuff I can`t change. But I suppose unconsciously I must feel it`s useful-maybe as a defense to keep me from anything that will expose me to more shame. Like therapy, which I forced myself to do for 7 years and which left me with oceans more shame.
Posted by paula on November 3, 2001, at 13:40:33
In reply to Re: Anyone else have shame attacks?, posted by Cecilia on November 3, 2001, at 4:15:28
I think for me that the "usefulness" of shame was that it seemed oddly proactive. If I'm a "bad person"--and can't do anything about it--the least I can do is to be totally cognizant of how terrible I am. At least that's the scenario I've deduced recently.
I'm happy to report that I don't have the same shame-response to life that has characterized the last c. 20 years for me. But now I don't have any mechanism for when I am non-functional. I spent two days in bed this week. (That's "hypersomnia," right?) I know that it's GOOD for me to cut myself some slack and accept that I need recovery time, but there was a time in my life when the shame-response at least kept me engaged in my work. Fear used to be a powerful motivator for me. At the moment I'm adrift between irrational shame and calm centeredness.
At least I'm well rested. :)
> > Great question!
> >
> > Very definitely--most of my anxiety attacks are shame based. I think it is true that shame can be useful, but too much can be extremely debilitating--I think useful shame is like a water droplet and intense shame is like a hurricane with monsoon flooding.
>
> I have horrible shame attacks plus a constant feeling of low level shame about practically everything. It doesn`t feel useful-it`s mostly about stuff I can`t change. But I suppose unconsciously I must feel it`s useful-maybe as a defense to keep me from anything that will expose me to more shame. Like therapy, which I forced myself to do for 7 years and which left me with oceans more shame.
Posted by Elizabeth on November 9, 2001, at 21:31:20
In reply to Anyone else have shame attacks?, posted by Dinah on November 1, 2001, at 18:06:26
Maybe this is a manifestation of performance anxiety- or social phobia-induced panic attacks? I don't know, just a suggestion.
-elizabeth
Posted by Dinah on November 9, 2001, at 23:59:23
In reply to Re: Anyone else have shame attacks?, posted by Elizabeth on November 9, 2001, at 21:31:20
> Maybe this is a manifestation of performance anxiety- or social phobia-induced panic attacks? I don't know, just a suggestion.
>
> -elizabethI don't think so. It's happening when I am totally involved in doing something else, when I'm alone, and even when I'm just waking up. It does feel like a panic attack, though, in the fact that there seems to be no real cause for it. At first there were thoughts attached, but now it's just sensations. Oh well, it's not nearly as unpleasant as a panic attack and I think I'm getting used to it.
Thanks,
Dinah
Posted by Elizabeth on November 10, 2001, at 23:21:03
In reply to Re: Anyone else have shame attacks? » Elizabeth, posted by Dinah on November 9, 2001, at 23:59:23
> I don't think so. It's happening when I am totally involved in doing something else, when I'm alone, and even when I'm just waking up. It does feel like a panic attack, though, in the fact that there seems to be no real cause for it. At first there were thoughts attached, but now it's just sensations.
What kind of thoughts? I think this is very interesting -- I've never heard of spontaneous shame attacks, which is what you seem to be describing.
> Oh well, it's not nearly as unpleasant as a panic attack and I think I'm getting used to it.
Well, that's good at least. I hope you can find some way to get it to stop happening, though.
best,
-elizabeth
Posted by Dinah on November 11, 2001, at 8:28:14
In reply to Re: Anyone else have shame attacks? » Dinah, posted by Elizabeth on November 10, 2001, at 23:21:03
The original thoughts with these recent odd shame attacks were somewhat vague I'm a wretched person or I'm a ridiculous person. When I tried to pin them down, I realized how general they were. They may have even been a response to the sensations rather than the cause.
Of course, I have been having real shame attacks for almost a year. The kind that are definitely a response to thoughts, and not vice versa. It started when I was in church and "realized" what a wretched person I was. It was like I suddenly understood the words to Amazing Grace. My pdoc says that was not uncommon in OCD. Scrupolosity?
Maybe the neural passages got oversensitized or something and now the shame just comes on it's own without any thoughts.
A very unscientific theory, but the best I have.
Posted by Adam on November 12, 2001, at 11:03:24
In reply to Anyone else have shame attacks?, posted by Dinah on November 1, 2001, at 18:06:26
In my life, it is fair to say that I have done and said a few things that I really, really wish I hadn't. These range anywhere from a relatively forgettable faux pas to lynchpin decisions that altered the course of my life in a detrimental way. I seem to have this rather awful tendency, at times, to recall, in an instant, some rather vivid memories of some-or-other past transgression or indiscretion. The affects of such "attacks of conscious" can be pretty dramatic. I sometimes almost convulse, they hit me with such force. I fell an urge, when they strike, to cry out "oh my God, oh my GOD, HOW could I have been so _STUPID_?" And then it passes, almost as quickly as it hit. It's really an amazing thing, and I don't know what to make of it. It's been happening for about ten years (I think it takes that much of your adult life to accumulate a sufficient number of experiences for some of them to start springing like bogeymen from the closets of your subconcious), and I honestly can't say if it's a good or bad thing. These "spasms" are unpleasant enough that I am given pause, at certain critical junctures, and perhaps choose more carefully what I am going to do. But the way they hit me, like a seizure and a panic attack all compressed into about two seconds, is something that mystifies me still. They seem apropos to nothing contemporary in my life, have no trigger that I can identify, and don't last long enough for me to take any great notice.
Is this a "shame attack"? I don't know. Does it sound familiar?
> This week I am having shame attacks. They're sort of like panic attacks in that they seem to come without reason. All of the sudden, I just feel all the physical sensations of shame. Burning cheeks, wanting to hide my face and all. At first they came with some OCD type nonspecific thoughts, but now the shame just comes on its own. I am even waking up in the middle of the night feeling shame.
> All in all it's not that bad, especially now that I am not having any accompanying thoughts. It beats anxiety and depression. It's just weird to see how my brain misfunctions sometimes. I can just see all those "shame" neurons happily firing away.
Posted by paula on November 12, 2001, at 11:44:53
In reply to Re: Anyone else have shame attacks? » Dinah, posted by Adam on November 12, 2001, at 11:03:24
It sounds familiar to me. That sort of "attack" is a hallmark of what I consider my real depressive state. Very painful.
--paula
> In my life, it is fair to say that I have done and said a few things that I really, really wish I hadn't. These range anywhere from a relatively forgettable faux pas to lynchpin decisions that altered the course of my life in a detrimental way. I seem to have this rather awful tendency, at times, to recall, in an instant, some rather vivid memories of some-or-other past transgression or indiscretion. The affects of such "attacks of conscious" can be pretty dramatic. I sometimes almost convulse, they hit me with such force. I fell an urge, when they strike, to cry out "oh my God, oh my GOD, HOW could I have been so _STUPID_?" And then it passes, almost as quickly as it hit. It's really an amazing thing, and I don't know what to make of it. It's been happening for about ten years (I think it takes that much of your adult life to accumulate a sufficient number of experiences for some of them to start springing like bogeymen from the closets of your subconcious), and I honestly can't say if it's a good or bad thing. These "spasms" are unpleasant enough that I am given pause, at certain critical junctures, and perhaps choose more carefully what I am going to do. But the way they hit me, like a seizure and a panic attack all compressed into about two seconds, is something that mystifies me still. They seem apropos to nothing contemporary in my life, have no trigger that I can identify, and don't last long enough for me to take any great notice.
>
> Is this a "shame attack"? I don't know. Does it sound familiar?
>
> > This week I am having shame attacks. They're sort of like panic attacks in that they seem to come without reason. All of the sudden, I just feel all the physical sensations of shame. Burning cheeks, wanting to hide my face and all. At first they came with some OCD type nonspecific thoughts, but now the shame just comes on its own. I am even waking up in the middle of the night feeling shame.
> > All in all it's not that bad, especially now that I am not having any accompanying thoughts. It beats anxiety and depression. It's just weird to see how my brain misfunctions sometimes. I can just see all those "shame" neurons happily firing away.
Posted by Dinah on November 12, 2001, at 14:46:31
In reply to Re: Anyone else have shame attacks? » Dinah, posted by Adam on November 12, 2001, at 11:03:24
That does sound very familiar. It has happened to me for years. The current attacks are very similar except that there are no thoughts or memories that come with them. Or I suppose it's possible that there are thoughts, but they are below the level of my awareness.
I especially relate to the words you use to describe them. I too feel that they are similar to seizures or spasms. Come to think of it, these latest spontaneous shame attacks started at the same time I increased my Depakote doseage. Maybe they'll go away as I get accustomed to the new dose.
Posted by Noa on November 13, 2001, at 15:58:02
In reply to Re: Anyone else have shame attacks? » Adam, posted by Dinah on November 12, 2001, at 14:46:31
I've always had these cringe attacks. I can remember being 10 years old and suddenly being seized by a memory of some faux pas I committed and being flooded with shame. I think in some ways, this has gotten better over the years for me--I got to a certain point when I could look at old photos, read old letters or journal entries,etc. without cringing, even think of those old faux pas and forgive myself. Also, with time, I was able to see how some of those horrible cringe moments really weren't all my fault, etc. even though I used to see it that way.
But I still do have shame episodes based on something more internal than a faux pas moment--deep down shame about wanting, about being unlovable, coming in part from being shamed for expressing want, expressing feelings, etc. For me, I think it is partly due to how my parents (mostly my mother) responded/didn't respond to my feelings (little tolerance for children's feelings, very critical of just about everything), but also on my constitution--I think of myself as having a hypersensitive amygdala--alert to nonverbal cues of emotional approval or rejection---emotional response much quicker/stronger than thinking response. This is a bad combination--child with hyper-amygdala in emotionally repressed/hypercritical family. Ie, shame. Anyway, that is how I think of my story, in a nutshell.
It did used to cripple me to worry about what other people were thinking, and somehow, somehow I have managed to not care so much, so as to not have to cringe at all my foibles all the time. It does still surprise me when a friend will be hung up on how others will judge her if her clothing isn't just so. She readily admits she judges others that way, while I tend to think people are way too busy with themselves to notice every little thing about me, and if they do, I no longer care about the opinion of some stranger who bothers to care that I don't look just right or something.
We all say and do stupid things sometimes. Most things are not irreversable, though. And I really do think that for the most part people are more forgiving than we are of ourselves. And impressions are based on an accummulation of encounters, not just the one where you made the big blunder. A lot of times that big blunder seems so huge and important and then you find out the other person barely noticed.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.