![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 2 to 26 of 33. Go back in thread:
Posted by Krazy Kat on October 29, 2001, at 10:02:45
In reply to Oh - Woman of few words . . . Julie?, posted by Greg A. on October 26, 2001, at 23:56:56
Julie:
I thought I'd check in here since my post to the other thread got lost.
I have sucked thus far at my "no alcohol month". I think it's been worse for me this time than before, which is odd. Maybe I'm rebelling already? Hmmm. Not sure.
Then, I've been playing mind games with myself, convinced I've Ruined my liver, even though my tests just came back fine. It's like a vicious, horrifically unhealthy circle.
Part of my problem is anxiety as well, which you, Greg and I seem to have in common. Even more so, though for me, is trouble with (bad)obsessive thoughts and going down on the Topamax has made that much worse again. But, my Depakote dose was upped and it seems better today.
There is no way I could cut back on drinking or stop without help from meds. You may be different, but please don't get discouraged if it takes trying another med, if it takes awhile. Alcohol really helps and harms us. Nobody wants to admit the "helping" part b/c then it's as if you're condoning the misuse of it. (What's the Correct use of it, really though? ;))
So, I've done Horribly! And am starting again today.
- K
Posted by Krazy Kat on October 29, 2001, at 10:07:33
In reply to Oh - Woman of few words . . . Julie?, posted by Greg A. on October 26, 2001, at 23:56:56
Greg:
May I ask what you're doing when you feel anxious now? Do you "crave" a drink? Are you considering adjusting your meds, or talking to your pdoc about doing so?
I feel pretty strongly that if I can get these obsessive thoughts, which I think are part of the manic stuff going on (I believe that's the correct scientific term :)), under control, I'll be less inclined to drink. It's so bad sometimes (the thoughts). Feels like the Depakote increase is starting to take effect today, and I wouldn't touch a beer if someone paid me. Sounds super icky.
Anyhoo, I do not doubt that there will still be cravings and that the habit will make the "lifestyle" tempting, so I would appreciate any tricks you've learned to avoid temptation.
- K.
Posted by Greg A. on October 29, 2001, at 14:12:58
In reply to Re: Oh - Woman of few words . . . Julie? » Greg A., posted by Krazy Kat on October 29, 2001, at 10:07:33
K.,
Yes you may ask. When I feel anxious now, I feel anxious. I have found no solution. However, I do not crave a drink to any great degree. The drinking was not doing much for my anxiety anyways. In the evening, when I did most of my drinking, it would numb me, which was the feeling I sought. But the next day, the rebound anxiety would be quite bad. I was caught in that vicious circle: drink in the evening to kill the tension and suffer the next day from drinking, and therefore be ready to drink again that evening. Once out of the cycle, I am experiencing just what I expected. I am steadier. The lows and anxious times are still there, but not fueled by alcohol. I can’t say that I do not miss the temporary relief that came with evening drinking, but I can certainly do without the up and down swings. I think I mentioned once before that one of my goals in not drinking was to eliminate a variable in influences on how I felt while on meds. There seemed to be a contradiction in trying to fine tune meds to feel better, in getting exercise to feel better, in trying to change some of my behaviours and expectations of myself, to feel better, and then dousing it all in alcohol. So now I can say, “ on a day in day out basis, this is how I really am feeling’, without having to factor in alcohol intake.
I think I will be asking to change my meds at my next pdoc appointment. But I am looking forward to telling her that alcohol is not a consideration this time.
I don’t really have any tricks to avoid the temptation to drink. Whenever I had stopped for awhile in the past, I had to make sure there was no alcohol in the house. This time, there is beer in the fridge, and unopened wine in the rack. The first few days were the toughest. Now I feel I have something to lose if I give in. I promised some people, myself included that I would stop drinking and see what happened. I have made no commitment as to any length of time I will stop for. If I said a year, that would be like admitting defeat. If I said forever, that’s too much to think about. So I’m saying today.
Is there a responsible, right way to drink. Sure, for some people. A drink when it’s offered or whatever. But not the daily use of alcohol to ‘fix’ some problem. I do not remember ever having just one drink to make me feel better. It was always a number of drinks. If someone said I could have one drink a day but no more, in lieu of none, I would go with none.Greg
Posted by juliedealer on October 29, 2001, at 16:03:21
In reply to Short question - long answer., posted by Greg A. on October 29, 2001, at 14:12:58
day 1 1 beer
day 2 4 beers
day 3 1 beer
day 4 at 3 beers as we speakI got what we call an EO (early out)at work, came home and cracked open a beer. I have 3 days off. and I just know I will drink the next 3 days. I don't post here when I'm realy drunk.
God I wish I could explain what I'm feeling when I decide to drink. I can't say I crave a drink, but I just want to get away from how I feel.
I haven't told my pdco about this. Should I?
I love you all
julie
Posted by sar on October 29, 2001, at 16:41:51
In reply to ok, ashamed but here..., posted by juliedealer on October 29, 2001, at 16:03:21
> day 1 1 beer
> day 2 4 beers
> day 3 1 beer
> day 4 at 3 beers as we speak
>
> I got what we call an EO (early out)at work, came home and cracked open a beer. I have 3 days off. and I just know I will drink the next 3 days. I don't post here when I'm realy drunk.
>
> God I wish I could explain what I'm feeling when I decide to drink. I can't say I crave a drink, but I just want to get away from how I feel.
>
> I haven't told my pdco about this. Should I?
>
> I love you all
> juliei'm so proud of those that have chosen to cut down on drining or, especially, cut it out altogether. Greg, i am amazed that you have alcohol in the house that you've not consumed--willpower, man, thats so great...
Julie...i'm on my third 24 oz'er right now...i suppose that equals a 6-pack? but i feel just nicely buzzed, not drunk. this makes me feel bad. i don't have a job right now so my days are free like this...drinking beer in a soda cup as i walked to the bookstore to buy depressing anne sexton poetry...
my experience with pdocs and alcohol: my private pdocs have provided me with whatever i want, of course along with the warning that meds are not nearly as effective as long as you're drinking. alcohol is a depressant. this year, i lost my medical insurance and have been going to some free pdocs...one of them wouldn't write me a prescription unless i pledged to her that i'd quit drinking...i told ger what she wanted to hear...the meds have improved my mental health, but probably not to the point they're intended too..
my inclination is to tell you this: if you have a private pdoc, paid by you or your insurance co, lay it all out. the drinking and everything. the government-run places can be very strict: caveat empor.
best to you dear julie,
sar
Posted by Greg A. on October 29, 2001, at 16:42:37
In reply to ok, ashamed but here..., posted by juliedealer on October 29, 2001, at 16:03:21
Julie,
What can you do to get you away from sitting and drinking for the rest of the day? From your description, you have done pretty well the past few days – perfection is not required. I know it’s doubly hard when you have time on your hands and no obligations to keep you away from drinking. Is there anywhere you could go that would ‘distract’ you?
We all want relief from feeling bad. That’s a normal thing. As I said earlier, one reason I have found giving up drinking to be okay so far, is that it was giving me very temporary relief, at a big cost the next day.
I would rather have you stay somewhat sober and post, than drink and hide for 3 days. I would miss talking to you.Greg (at work and feeling like I have the flu – and knowing that it’s not a hangover)
Posted by Krazy Kat on October 29, 2001, at 17:38:01
In reply to ok, ashamed but here..., posted by juliedealer on October 29, 2001, at 16:03:21
Ooo, ooo, get rid of that shame! And guilt! Those are two of the Worst emotions! O.K., guilt can be productive if it's from within and has a legitimate basis, but very, very rarely.
You're doing really well, I think! I know I may get slapped for this, but what about thinking of it as limiting it to 3-4 beers? That's better than 10 (incidentally, I Do tell my pdoc Kind Of what's going on with my alcohol use. But when I told him once that I drank 6 drinks one night, he was horrified. I can drink 10 drinks in a day, if I've been drinking the day before.)
Still waiting for the med (was it Effexor?) to help? My humble advice - don't wait too long. I did and I shouldn't have. Make sure you speak up if it's not helping soon.
Again, I think the lower intake is good!
- K.
Posted by Krazy Kat on October 29, 2001, at 17:41:04
In reply to Re: ok, ashamed but here..., posted by Greg A. on October 29, 2001, at 16:42:37
Things to do, things to do.
Perhaps we should do a list...
Posted by Greg A. on October 29, 2001, at 17:48:52
In reply to Re: ok, ashamed but here..., posted by Greg A. on October 29, 2001, at 16:42:37
Julie . . .
Did you ask to go home from work today? Is something specific bothering you? Or do you just feel like you have to get out of there? Don’t you love all the questions?
What feelings do you have to get away from?Inquisitive Greg.
Posted by juliedealer on October 29, 2001, at 18:56:42
In reply to I have some questions . . . , posted by Greg A. on October 29, 2001, at 17:48:52
we have this wonderful thing at work, called the EO list, it is a voluntary list,If you are willing to go home and they don't need you ... you can go home. But I do volunteer to stay if they are short handed also. So there is no problem there, I've been there for 4 years now and I am a good employee, but I could be so much better. Today I got home about 1:30 pm it is now 7 and I have had about 6 beers.
I hate this life, but I hate the life without alcohol too.
Please more advice concerning talking to the Pdoc. He is paid by company insurance,
julie
Posted by juliedealer on October 29, 2001, at 19:05:28
In reply to OH, MY JOB, and drinking, posted by juliedealer on October 29, 2001, at 18:56:42
> greg,
I hope you don't mind, but how old are you? the only reason i ask is you ask what is bothering me. I'm wondering if you are facing some of the same questions I face at this point in my life.julie
Posted by Gracie2 on October 29, 2001, at 20:18:32
In reply to some questions for greg, posted by juliedealer on October 29, 2001, at 19:05:28
I only drink on an empty stomach, otherwise food kills the "buzz". If I have a glass of wine and a plate of food in front of me, they sort of cancel each other out...I feel like I must eat at least some dinner, when all I really want is the wine,
so I don't enjoy either.
Maybe this is peculiar but prehaps you could become more interested in cooking and eating? I love watching Julia Child cook - a little wine in the pot, a little sip for herself, she kills me.
(Incidentally, real gourmet cooks never use bottled "cooking wine" - it's inferior wine loaded with salt. Only the good stuff goes into the sauce - followed, of course, by a little sippy
for the cook). By the time you finished cooking and sat down to a really good meal, your taste for wine would be at least partially sated and your excellent meal would fill you up enough to make more alcohol uninteresting to you. Particularly if you've had a rich dessert, which calls for espresso.Even if this isn't a workable idea for you, prehaps you can be creative enough to come up with some other idea that makes you stop drinking.
I've known many people who swear that the only way to quit a habit is cold-turkey, and I believe this is also a premise of AA - that you can never touch alcohol again, ever. I don't really agree with this line of thinking. If you normally drink a 6-pack of beer nightly and you've cut down to 4 beers, and then 3, I think you are to be congratulated instead of condemned for drinking at all. While AA has helped countless people, I don't believe there is a strict set of rules that applies to every person in every circumstance under any situation, whether you are trying to quit smoking or lose weight or buy a house. You must find out what works for you, celebrate your successes and, instead of beating yourself up over a relapse, you realize that tomorrow is another day and a new chance to try again.
-Gracie
PS. Every day is a new life to a wise man.
Posted by Greg A. on October 29, 2001, at 20:19:56
In reply to some questions for greg, posted by juliedealer on October 29, 2001, at 19:05:28
Julie, I am 49. I have been treated for depression for about 15 years or so. The first ten years I was adamant that I was not depressed, only anxious.
Here's an anxious day in the life for you. Awake with feeling of tightness in chest. Keep taking deep breaths to try to get rid of feeling. Only confirms that it is still there. Go to work. Try to avoid people. Hard when you are a public servant. Don't want phone to ring. Deal with things as best I can. Make it through work day. Enjoy nothing. Only reason to look forward to the end of the day is it's closer to the time I can drink and try to put a damper on the anxiety. Get some exercise - token effort to compensate for drinking. Have dinner with family. Say little. Act irritable. Watch TV. Drink. Drink enough to start to think I am okay. Go to bed. Get up next a.m. with slight hangover and tightness in chest. Repeat ad nauseum.Greg.
Posted by Gracie2 on October 29, 2001, at 20:56:01
In reply to I have some questions . . . , posted by Greg A. on October 29, 2001, at 17:48:52
I must add that I am getting really, really tired of all the endless restrictions and rules and the
countless warnings of how everything we eat or drink, every drug we take, everything we do - the music we listen to, the programs we watch on TV,
the cars we drive, the cleaning solutions we use in our house, the way we raise our kids - how harmful and wrong it all is.
As far as I'm concerned, laudanum should still be available OTC. I love good coffee and fine wine and beef stroganoff. I love my little Nissan and would rather go to Barnes & Noble than the gym.
Think about two things that have happened rather recently; the "French Paradox" - where researchers had to grudgingly admit that the French appeared to be living longer and healthier lives because they drink red wine;
and Linda McCartney, wife of Paul McCartney, who was a devoted vegetarian ("never eat anything with a face") and published several cookbooks on
eating to live a healthy life; she died at a fairly young age of breast cancer.
I'm just not convinced that it's entirely worth it to drink Evian, eat a macrobiotic diet, swallow cartloads of vitamins and work out regularly, just to step off the curb and be run over by a bus. I'm not condoning alcoholism or drug abuse or gluttony, but I do believe that moderation is preferable to the self-flagellation of complete abstinence...unless, of course, that is "your thing". Great, good for you, but leave the rest of us out of it.
-Gracie
Posted by juliedealer on October 29, 2001, at 21:12:34
In reply to Even more input, posted by Gracie2 on October 29, 2001, at 20:56:01
p
Posted by juliedealer on October 29, 2001, at 21:16:22
In reply to Re: some questions for greg, posted by Greg A. on October 29, 2001, at 20:19:56
> Julie, I am 49. I have been treated for depression for about 15 years or so. The first ten years I was adamant that I was not depressed, only anxious.
> Here's an anxious day in the life for you. Awake with feeling of tightness in chest. Keep taking deep breaths to try to get rid of feeling. Only confirms that it is still there. Go to work. Try to avoid people. Hard when you are a public servant. Don't want phone to ring. Deal with things as best I can. Make it through work day. Enjoy nothing. Only reason to look forward to the end of the day is it's closer to the time I can drink and try to put a damper on the anxiety. Get some exercise - token effort to compensate for drinking. Have dinner with family. Say little. Act irritable. Watch TV. Drink. Drink enough to start to think I am okay. Go to bed. Get up next a.m. with slight hangover and tightness in chest. Repeat ad nauseum.
>
> Greg.
Posted by Greg A. on October 30, 2001, at 0:34:12
In reply to oh god greg you are my twin, posted by juliedealer on October 29, 2001, at 21:16:22
Tell me more Julie . . . when you feel like it.
Greg
Posted by Greg A. on October 30, 2001, at 0:47:25
In reply to Even more input, posted by Gracie2 on October 29, 2001, at 20:56:01
Gracie,
I agree with some of your sentiments. If we paid strict attention to the all the warnings and supposed perils attendant to what we eat, drink, drive, breath, talk into, look at, etc. there would be little there to live for.
Drinking in moderation is great. Lots of people do it and I'm sure it either does no harm or even prolongs their life and makes it more enjoyable. But I don't drink in moderation. I don't drink to enjoy life. I drink to numb life. And it doesn't work.
BTW, another recent study of the longer-lived French wine drinkers indicated that one reason for the longer life span was that it is the more affluent who drink wine in moderation; and they also ate better, had better medical care and so on. The rest of us were beer swilling slobs who would inevitably die much earlier of diseases with horrible names. (Linda McCartney was the anomaly in the study and she never could sing anyways)
Greg
Posted by Gracie2 on October 30, 2001, at 1:53:55
In reply to Re: Even more input, posted by Greg A. on October 30, 2001, at 0:47:25
Yeah, they gave Linda a tamborine and a microphone like she could really sing (snort) or put her behind the keyboards where she could pretend to play.
-G
Posted by Krazy Kat on October 30, 2001, at 10:47:47
In reply to Even more input, posted by Gracie2 on October 29, 2001, at 20:56:01
Gracie:
I agree. I would actually rather live a shorter, "more fun" life than a long one eating oat bran every morning. This is a change for me, as I was overly health conscious in my early to mid twenties (except for drinking, LOL).
My sister sent me a book titled "Eat, Drink and Be Merry". It's pretty good.
I also think of my favorite era of comedians, Jack Benny, George Burns, Bob Hope - they certainly enjoyed a plethora of vices in moderation and they lived far longer than Frank Short will, I guarantee you.
- K.
I love Julia, as well. She wouldn't be half as fun, without her little sips of wine.
Posted by Krazy Kat on October 30, 2001, at 10:59:38
In reply to OH, MY JOB, and drinking, posted by juliedealer on October 29, 2001, at 18:56:42
this is a tough one. From my experience, I would explain that it's a concern of yours at times - unfortunately, I do feel you have to play it down at first. You can always delve into it more deeply later and just explain that you weren't comfortable enough to lay it all out in the beginning.
Pdoc's really shouldn't be shocked - it's such a common feature in depressives and manic depressives. Unfortunately mine initially suggested I go to AA, which is not even a minute possibility for me, so that just shut me up for awhile.
The thing is that your pdoc can probably help determine what is connected to the drinking (i.e., mine is Really bad when I'm manic) and there are meds that can help you stop if you ever want to take that line. And, alcohol does interfere with your med regimine, so he or she needs to know.
But, if they make you uncomfortable, back away. No need to be made to feel like you're a bad child. I still can't believe the Dr. who "made" Sar promise she wouldn't drink to get some Prozac. What the hell was that about? Was she trying to "guilt" Sar out of drinking? Bizarre.
Of course, as we all know, it's dangerous to mix alcohol and meds, so ideally we would be forthright with our pdocs and watch our drinking.
- K.
Posted by Krazy Kat on October 30, 2001, at 11:40:00
In reply to Re: some questions for greg, posted by Greg A. on October 29, 2001, at 20:19:56
I hope you guys don't mind that I'm jumping in here some.
This sounds so familiar to me, too. When I worked in an office, I did everything I could to avoid folks. But now I'm home and I'm going crazy, mainly b/c hubby works from home and we don't get breaks from each other. Se la Vie.
There has to be Something we look forward to every day - I'm convinced of that now. Whether it's food (a good dinner) or reading, or watching a particular show. I don't think it really matters.
It took me until very recently, and I'm still not there, to allow myself to find something to enjoy. Does that sound familiar?
- K.
Posted by Gracie2 on October 30, 2001, at 20:09:37
In reply to Re: some questions for greg » Greg A., posted by Krazy Kat on October 30, 2001, at 11:40:00
Isn't it funny how some people think that they deserve not only everything, but the best of everything; and then there's us!
It can't be just environment. My sister - who is warm and wonderful and funny and I love her to death - wouldn't be caught dead in clothes from Target or K-Mart. She works hard and insists on only the best for herself - clothing, cars, hair salons, furniture, food - it has to be first-class all the way. I should learn from her.
I'm particular about a few things (only coffee from Starbucks) but otherwise I'm nothing like that. I have a nice car now, but I drove beaters for so long that I learned how to change a tire and make (minor) car repairs, because I was always breaking down somewhere. When I'm not in uniform, I'm usually wearing something like Levis with holes in the knees and a Rams hoodie.
It's amazing to me that we come from the same family.Sometimes you have to be good to yourself. I don't work much now; I'm so burned out on my regular job, I think it was a great factor in my "nervous breakdown" last year. I'm taking an
at-home course in medical transcription and I'm trying to start my own business as a mural artist, which I have some experience at. My husband and son make fun of me - they call the medical transcription institution a "matchbook school" and when I'm sketching pictures of a mural for a prospective client, they ask if I
spent the whole day "coloring". Neither of them are happy that I'm not working full-time and their comments really hurt my feelings, but I worked my butt off for 20 years at a job I hate,
often six days a week, and I put my husband through school. So I'm not going to quit - I honestly feel as if this is my last chance. If I give up now and go back to my regular profession, I feel as if that will be the end of me. I'll melt into a puddle on the floor like the Wicked Witch. I think I deserve to be happy too.So don't deny yourself, and don't let anyone else give you crap about it. Why should everyone else have all the good stuff?
-Gracie
Posted by Krazy Kat on October 30, 2001, at 20:52:12
In reply to KK - enjoy, posted by Gracie2 on October 30, 2001, at 20:09:37
Gwen? Or Gale?
I come from an extended family of wealth but nothing much growing up. I have never cared much for material things - that's not to belittle anyone who does, it just wasn't something that interested me either. I'm more concerned with my freedom and control.
Nevertheless, I, too, have tastes that are "wealthy" - coffee -definitely!; jewelry, what little I own; shoes; I guess 'classic' clothes in general. But that's kind of an old money philosophy - buy well, while you can.
Thank you for sharing re: your new career and conflicts at home. I think we, (people in general) tend to assume everything works perfectedly in a marriage that lasts a certain number of years. Certainly yours has lasted more than mine, but I was so young when married, that I am asked for 'advice' all the time. Frankly, I think it just gets more difficult.
I am struggling, time and again lately, with our living situation. No children, so that's not a factor.
Anyhoo, thanks again.
- K.
Posted by wendy b. on October 30, 2001, at 23:13:55
In reply to What was the name of the good witch?, posted by Krazy Kat on October 30, 2001, at 20:52:12
> Gwen? Or Gale?
Glenda! (Pronounced "Glinda" in the film...) You're pretty good - Gale was Dorothy's last name. A little suggestion of the storm (tornado, to be exact) to come...
> I come from an extended family of wealth but nothing much growing up. I have never cared much for material things - that's not to belittle anyone who does, it just wasn't something that interested me either. I'm more concerned with my freedom and control.
We never had much money, so consequently loved material things... Not out-of-control, but wonderful foods, fine clothes when we could buy them, the occasional car. Gracie, BTW, I bought a Subaru in '94, which I still have, which I intend to run into the ground, why should I move on to an Audi??
> Nevertheless, I, too, have tastes that are "wealthy" - coffee -definitely!;Starbucks when I can get it! Way to rock and roll, Gracie, too...
>jewelry, what little I own;
Yup... Drool over the Tiffany's catalog when I see it at Mom's...
>... shoes; I guess 'classic' clothes in general. But that's kind of an old money philosophy - buy well, while you can.
Yes, solid or block colors, mostly, few prints, good material, not trendy, but 'stylish'...
> Thank you for sharing re: your new career and conflicts at home. I think we, (people in general) tend to assume everything works perfectedly in a marriage that lasts a certain number of years. Certainly yours has lasted more than mine, but I was so young when married, that I am asked for 'advice' all the time. Frankly, I think it just gets more difficult.Interesting... How many years has it been?
> I am struggling, time and again lately, with our living situation. No children, so that's not a factor.I'm sorry.. I think I've asked you to elaborate more a while ago, but maybe you will this time. Gracie seems so tough, I think it's great she's doing the medical transcriptionist thing, it sounds like it'll be worth it in the end, and she can laugh all the way to the bank... And hey, if she has mural clients, why should the hub and son make fun of this? It's every artist's dream, to be able to make money from their creative efforts...
>
> Anyhoo, thanks again.
>
> - K.
More later. As always,W.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.