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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Diane J. on April 15, 2001, at 19:41:22
I saw a clinical psychologist for therapy for 4 years. It was my first experience with therapy, and I suppose everything went on in a pretty normal fashion for a while. However, gradually the therapy became verbally and emotionally abusive, and I terminated therapy with her about a year ago. It was a bad break-up.
Now I have another therapist, and even though I vowed I would not let myself like her, eventually I have come to like, admire, and respect her. We have a healthy relationship, perhaps the total opposite of what I had with my first therapist.
The reason I am writing is because I come into contact with the first therapist, Dr. H., in some fashion on a semi-regular basis. I mean, for example, I will see her at the psychiatrist's office (they share the same set of suites) or else I will go to my regular M. D. and discover that his new receptionist is the one who used to work at her office. Even my kids and hers have the same pediatrician! This is not a small town. There are over 90,000 people in this community alone, and there are other cities adjoining it.
I do not understand why I continue to be SO UPSET whenever I see or hear about her. I used to be angry, but that part seems to have disappeared. The contact (even by proxy) with Dr. H inevitably causes me to be anxious, agitated, and tearful.
I have just finished going off Effexor. I did it the way one should, going down slowly in increments of 75mg at a time until I was at 37.5mg and then 0. I told my new therapist I felt I had needed a high dosage just to be able to deal with Dr. H. Of course, she was appalled that I would be taking an antidepressant so I could stand my therapist. (I had preexisting depression.)
My present therapist is very supportive, and she listens to me talk about Dr. H again and again. I think she is wonderful. Things would be pretty bad without her, I know. But sometimes I feel as if Dr. H is going to haunt me for the rest of my life. Why do I feel so anxious, agitated, and unhappy when I come into contact with her (even by proxy)? Do you think this is a situation that just takes time to get over? (And more time?) Or does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks for reading this post.
Posted by DarkWind on April 15, 2001, at 20:06:22
In reply to How do I get over this?, posted by Diane J. on April 15, 2001, at 19:41:22
personally, i think if you have a therapist who turns abusive to you, you have every right to your anger. a therapist is someone you place your trust in, someone who is supposed to be there to help you - abusiveness negates these things.
i saw a therapist prior to seeing the one i am currently seeing. she and i had one visit together - she talked to me for about ten minutes and then had me take this ridiculous questionnaire, then she wouldn't even return my phone calls and told my primary physician that i was not depressed. six weeks later, i was in much worse condition and got a referral to see a different therapist, who has been treating me for depression ever since. i still get my hackles up every time i think about that first therapist; but i try not to let her and her misdiagnosis rule my life - she isn't worth it, in my opinion. that's the only advice i can offer you about this therapist of yours - it doesn't sound like this person is really worth your consideration.
Posted by ShelliR on April 15, 2001, at 22:37:39
In reply to How do I get over this?, posted by Diane J. on April 15, 2001, at 19:41:22
> I do not understand why I continue to be SO UPSET whenever I see or hear about her. I used to be angry, but that part seems to have disappeared. The contact (even by proxy) with Dr. H inevitably causes me to be anxious, agitated, and tearful.>
> My present therapist is very supportive, and she listens to me talk about Dr. H again and again.
Hi Diane. Perhaps it's just the way you phrased about your therapist "listens to me talk about Dr. H again and again." that makes me wonder if you haven't really worked out what Dr. H or the experience with Dr. H means to you at the deepest level.My non-professional guess is that there is something in your past which was re-enacted with this therapist. And perhaps you are spending time in dealing with her, rather than what she represents to you, e.g.., perhaps at a much younger and more vulnerable time someone who you trusted, ended up abusing you in some manner.
I don't know if this is the case, but I think basically the things that are hard for us to let go of emotionally, are things that have happened before in our childhood, when we really didn't have any power.
If I am totally off the mark, I hope you'll excuse me.
ShelliR
Posted by mila on April 16, 2001, at 0:31:55
In reply to How do I get over this?, posted by Diane J. on April 15, 2001, at 19:41:22
dear Diane,
ask your present therapist to arrange a meeting with your former therapist while she (the present therapist) is present.
It seems, that you have never been able to end the relationship with the first one.In order to get sense of closure, you need to meet and get her to apologize for the hurt she has caused you. It would be nice if she decided to return you the money for the sessions where she was abusive ( if you paid from your own pocket).
If she refuses, write a letter to some authority above her: if she is in private practice, to her Association, etc. You need to do something about it.
Also, I would recommend you to get together with someone intimately close to you and cry, express your regret and resentment over it. You need to recognize that you'd been unwise in continuing seeing her after she had moved into abusive tratment mode. Realize, that maybe a very small, but there was also your share in allowing this to happen. Thus, you'll be able to forgive yourself and drop down the victim identity, which seem to plague you today.
I am sorry this had happened to you. This is very unfortunate.
mila
Posted by Cecilia on April 16, 2001, at 5:04:16
In reply to How do I get over this?, posted by Diane J. on April 15, 2001, at 19:41:22
I don`t have any good suggestions for getting over it, just wanted to say you`re not alone. I had a very painful breakup with the therapist I`d been seeing for 7 years nearly 4 years ago and it still hurts A LOT. I haven`t seen her since our last session but I feel like if I were to run into her accidentally I would break into a million pieces. I go back and forth between anger at her and self hate at being a failure at therapy. I`ve tried a few therapists since but haven`t found anyone that I could imagine being able to help me. I think the biggest reason I can`t get over it is because sometimes I actually thought she cared and the pain lets me still have some sort of connection to her in my mind.
Posted by coral on April 16, 2001, at 7:33:26
In reply to Re: How do I get over this?, posted by Cecilia on April 16, 2001, at 5:04:16
It may be lack of closure. I had an awful experience w/a physician for a year when the depression first hit. The man was blazingly incompetent. This was eleven years ago and I still feel anger toward him. I was so vulnerable at that time and trusted him, and he did me a great deal of harm. Part of me would like to write him or talk with him to explain what happened but I don't because he's my husband's physician. He's absolutely GREAT with my husband. Maybe it's women or depression that are just out of his league.
Posted by judy1 on April 16, 2001, at 12:39:40
In reply to How do I get over this?, posted by Diane J. on April 15, 2001, at 19:41:22
I think you have gotten some great advice here, and are really fortunate in having a supportive therapist right now. From personal experience (and much different circumstances then yours, but still the same feelings), my therp let me vent and then had meetings set up with the ex-shrink and a facilitator to help me work through some of my feelings. I couldn't agree more with Shelli's suggestion that this isn't an isolated incident, that it may be stirring up some past issues and that is why it is so difficult. Let's see, it's been 18 months! for me, yet I read your post and cried. So, work with your therp and don't put a time limit on 'stopping' your feelings, but understanding and validating them will go a long way in allowing you to handle these encounters. I really wish you well- judy
P.S. I used my share of xanax during some of those meetings with the ex-shrink
Posted by Diane J. on April 16, 2001, at 15:22:32
In reply to Re: How do I get over this? » Diane J., posted by judy1 on April 16, 2001, at 12:39:40
> I think you have gotten some great advice here, and are really fortunate in having a supportive therapist right now. From personal experience (and much different circumstances then yours, but still the same feelings), my therp let me vent and then had meetings set up with the ex-shrink and a facilitator to help me work through some of my feelings. I couldn't agree more with Shelli's suggestion that this isn't an isolated incident, that it may be stirring up some past issues and that is why it is so difficult. Let's see, it's been 18 months! for me, yet I read your post and cried. So, work with your therp and don't put a time limit on 'stopping' your feelings, but understanding and validating them will go a long way in allowing you to handle these encounters. I really wish you well- judy
> P.S. I used my share of xanax during some of those meetings with the ex-shrink
I am very grateful for all the kind and helpful responses I have received. ShelliR, I think you are very close in your guess, and I'm going to talk about this (and the other helpful suggestions I received) with my therapist. I saw Dr. C for a half hour today, and we know what we're going to be talking about at my regular session on Wednesday. Thank you everyone.
Posted by sar on April 16, 2001, at 18:35:17
In reply to How do I get over this?, posted by Diane J. on April 15, 2001, at 19:41:22
I'm glad this subject was brought up, and Diane and Judy, I'm sorry you had such unfortunate experiences. I felt frightened and angry reading about your abusive pdocs.How can we avoid this? Do you think you'll act differently with doctors in the future?--like any sort of damage control in an effort to prevent the possibility of being mistreated? How are good therapists to be found without hopping around wasting a lot of time and money? And what the hell is the psychology of the abusive pdoc?
Posted by sar on April 16, 2001, at 18:43:11
In reply to how to get a good therapist?, posted by sar on April 16, 2001, at 18:35:17
am I getting my terminology mixed up? I meant therapist, not pdoc.
(Yall use the term "pdoc" for psychiatrist, right?)
Posted by judy1 on April 16, 2001, at 19:19:53
In reply to how to get a good therapist?, posted by sar on April 16, 2001, at 18:35:17
Actually sar, I wasn't abused by my pdoc, quite the opposite- there were a lot of boundaries crossed (I've already told this tale so I won't get into it again) but I think the end result is similar, the self-blame, depression and the difficulty in trusting another shrink. I don't know the psychology behind Diane's pdoc- I would hope he/she would get the proper help to not do that to another patient. And I wish I had answers on how to find a good pdoc without hopping around. It took over a dozen before I found my present one, and he worked very hard to gain my trust. So I've learned there's some great ones out there, a lot of mediocre ones, and some bad ones- like any profession I guess. Take care, judy
Posted by ljasak on July 19, 2001, at 11:00:11
In reply to How do I get over this?, posted by Diane J. on April 15, 2001, at 19:41:22
> Can you tell us what she was saying that you thought was verbally abusive? I'm curious bec. sometimes I myself can't tell whether my therapist is being "abusive" or just trying to "toughen me up" and show me the way I really am -- quite confusing!
Posted by shelliR on July 19, 2001, at 12:44:34
In reply to Re: How do I get over this?, posted by ljasak on July 19, 2001, at 11:00:11
> > Can you tell us what she was saying that you thought was verbally abusive? I'm curious bec. sometimes I myself can't tell whether my therapist is being "abusive" or just trying to "toughen me up" and show me the way I really am -- quite confusing!
Can you give us an example: if possible an example in the context of when it was said and with what tone. There is definitely a difference between verbal abuse and a straightfoward directness of the part of some therapists, but perhaps for you the line is becoming blurred. In retrospect, when you felt that your therapist was "being abusive", do you look back on it with the same perspective? Verbal abuse by a therapist would be a very very serious malpractice and could set you backward on your path, so this seems like an incredibly important thing to sort out. Is this something you have discussed with your therapist? In general (although not always), when confronted about abuse, an abusive therapist becomes very defensive.
Shelli
Posted by ljasak on July 19, 2001, at 16:33:35
In reply to Re: How do I get over this? » ljasak, posted by shelliR on July 19, 2001, at 12:44:34
I feel so guilty talking about this "out of context," but sometimes I feel so ashamed after she's pointed out how she perceives me as having behaved when relating a situation to her. e.g., when describing a situation in which I had difficulty relating, interacting, etc. w/ other people, she said that I gave the impression of having relationships w/ other people, but that I was actually behaving like a cipher. Maybe this is true -- maybe I really don't connect w/ other people but just keep myself aloof thinking that others will do all the work in the relationship, but it kills me to be refered to as a "cipher." I feel mortified to think that that's the impression I'm giving her, and giving the entire world -- might as well wear a bag over my head.
Posted by shelliR on July 19, 2001, at 23:01:10
In reply to Re: How do I get over this?, posted by ljasak on July 19, 2001, at 16:33:35
> I feel so guilty talking about this "out of context," but sometimes I feel so ashamed after she's pointed out how she perceives me as having behaved when relating a situation to her. e.g., when describing a situation in which I had difficulty relating, interacting, etc. w/ other people, she said that I gave the impression of having relationships w/ other people, but that I was actually behaving like a cipher. Maybe this is true -- maybe I really don't connect w/ other people but just keep myself aloof thinking that others will do all the work in the relationship, but it kills me to be refered to as a "cipher." I feel mortified to think that that's the impression I'm giving her, and giving the entire world -- might as well wear a bag over my head.
I've never actually ever heard anyone refer to someone as a cipher, but I suppose it couldn't have very good connotations. I think you need to figure out if (aside from hurting and humiliating you), your therapist has actually helped you. If she hasn't, I'd get out of that situation fast.
If she has helped you, and you see some potential in your work together, then you need to let her know how you feel when she gives you this type of feedback. There are times I feel humiliated and full of shame in therapy, but rarely as a result of what my therapist has said to me. In the few cases where it has happened, it was so painful that I said, "I need to leave right now." But then she would encourage me to stay and we would talk about what happened, and I would know that I either had misinterpreted what she had said, or that she had said something that was in no way meant to hurt me--that she hadn't been aware of my vulnerability around a certain issue.
I think what is important is that you feel humiliated by your therapist, and that should not be happening. I hope you are able to talk to her about it, and able to leave if it is not resolved. There's lots of therapists out there; you don't want to be working with one that you don't feel is your ally.
Best wishes,
Shelli
Posted by Diane J. on July 20, 2001, at 18:59:15
In reply to Re: How do I get over this?, posted by ljasak on July 19, 2001, at 11:00:11
I think Shelly has given you some very good advice. Being direct is a lot different than being abusive. My ex-therapist would get angry with me if I disagreed with something she said. Her version of events was always the correct one, and I was labeled oppositional and uncooperative. I remember thinking, "My instincts can't be wrong 100% of the time, can they?" She always was telling me what to do, and if I failed to comply I had to pay for it. If I became upset, I was "acting like a two-year-old." Dr. H always backed up her assertations with statements such as, "According to Freud," or "Psychologists agree," things like that. She also violated confidentiality on 4 different occasions by telephoning people on my supposed behalf without my consent. I mentioned once that she was not very nice and she said it was not her job to be nice. She wanted me to leave my psychiatrist for a different one and she told me unflattering things about him. When I refused to change she became angry and demanded an explanation. I learned that to survive I had to agree with everything she said and be grateful for her help, even if I really thought it was a load of ****. This was my first experience with therapy so I had nothing to compare it to. I was severely depressed and I believed her when she said I was a problem. But finally I was able to realize that I was not so bad as she said I was. The problems with our relationship were not because of me. She had so much difficulty with boundaries that she polluted the entire relationship and doomed it. Also she was just kind of mean, ya know?
> > Can you tell us what she was saying that you thought was verbally abusive? I'm curious bec. sometimes I myself can't tell whether my therapist is being "abusive" or just trying to "toughen me up" and show me the way I really am -- quite confusing!
Posted by AMenz on July 23, 2001, at 0:29:15
In reply to Re: How do I get over this? » ljasak, posted by shelliR on July 19, 2001, at 23:01:10
I think you are having a kind of phobic reaction to you ex therapist. I have had all kinds of phobic reactions including to specific people.
The things that helps the most is first to accept the reaction. And tell yourself it is OK to have it. It's got to be OK because you are having the reaction, you can't stop it right now and obsessissing about it to desperately try to take it away can't help.
Focus on what happens when you are presented with this doctor to your body. Look at the fact that you are well able to cope with these uncomforteable feelings and that after a time (whenever you are not exposed to the bad doctor) you feel alright.
As you go on not trying to battle this feeling but accepting it, it will occur to you why this is bothering you so much. So long as you are battling the phobia the inner feelings that it is tied up to will be obscure because the phobia is a fear reaction to something you feel. A defensive reaction if you will to something that is threatening.
Hence accepting it is the first step to diffuse the fear. Perhaps you want to affirm to yourself that even if this is frightening you will be OK.
This is what I've been doing. Of course, when anxiety was at a level 10 (as opposed to maybe 5 now) this was not possible.
There is something that this woman represents to you that you are not able to face and are deathly afraid of. But remember this is only an idea.
No matter how horrible this person is she really cannot continue to hurt you now that you have left her therapy.
> > I feel so guilty talking about this "out of context," but sometimes I feel so ashamed after she's pointed out how she perceives me as having behaved when relating a situation to her. e.g., when describing a situation in which I had difficulty relating, interacting, etc. w/ other people, she said that I gave the impression of having relationships w/ other people, but that I was actually behaving like a cipher. Maybe this is true -- maybe I really don't connect w/ other people but just keep myself aloof thinking that others will do all the work in the relationship, but it kills me to be refered to as a "cipher." I feel mortified to think that that's the impression I'm giving her, and giving the entire world -- might as well wear a bag over my head.
>
> I've never actually ever heard anyone refer to someone as a cipher, but I suppose it couldn't have very good connotations. I think you need to figure out if (aside from hurting and humiliating you), your therapist has actually helped you. If she hasn't, I'd get out of that situation fast.
>
> If she has helped you, and you see some potential in your work together, then you need to let her know how you feel when she gives you this type of feedback. There are times I feel humiliated and full of shame in therapy, but rarely as a result of what my therapist has said to me. In the few cases where it has happened, it was so painful that I said, "I need to leave right now." But then she would encourage me to stay and we would talk about what happened, and I would know that I either had misinterpreted what she had said, or that she had said something that was in no way meant to hurt me--that she hadn't been aware of my vulnerability around a certain issue.
>
> I think what is important is that you feel humiliated by your therapist, and that should not be happening. I hope you are able to talk to her about it, and able to leave if it is not resolved. There's lots of therapists out there; you don't want to be working with one that you don't feel is your ally.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Shelli
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